Gabriel Obertan

Myxomatosis said:
Silva is a much better player than Nani. He basically does everything Nani does only he's not as wasteful in possession and can pass the ball. Despite Nani's excellent form Silva would have to **** in England big time in order to be edged out of the team by Nani. Not to mention that A) Nani is right footed anyway so Silva could easilly replace Valencia and B) Silva actually plays in midfield for Valencia so he'd be replacing Anderson/Giggs in our 4-5-1/4-3-3 formation.

Di Maria has shown against Everton and Liverpool this season that even playing in a significantly worse side than ours he can compete and while he's a level below Silva he would still be pushing for a place in the team, especially as we can't play Nani and Valencia every game.

Do you actually even watch football? Seriously? I don't understand where you can come up with such bollocks. In the few games he played for us in the first team Obertan showed that he was reasonably quick, likes to pass the ball to Evra a lot and is capable of the odd very good moment like he showed at Wolfsburg. At the same time he was woeful in a few of his games and Sir Alex has since relegated him for the reserves, because he presumably doesn't think he's currently good enough and I agree with him.

David Silva on the other hand has played 149 games for a top club side in a top league. Has played 33 times for the World's best international side and has won a European Championship and he's rated high enough by Del Bosque and that racist chap before him to start ahead of Fabregas for Spain. You honestly think that a player who warrants a starting place for the Spanish national team wouldn't perform better than a player Sir Alex doesn't even consider good enough to feature for our first team? Muppetry at it's finest. Even the FM muppets have more sense than you.

Di Maria is also way ahead of him with seven Argentina caps (remind me again where on the pecking order Obertan is for France?) and has shown against top Premiership sides that he can do the business.

There's a damn good reason we bought Obertan for £3m from a worse side who didn't even want him and couldn't really understand exactly why we did and Di Maria is being quoted at £20m+. Maybe Obertan will turn out to be a good player but I doubt it personally and he's way below the level of either of those players, especially Silva.
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You clearly have not followed the long history of foreign players taking time to adapt to english football and indeed life in this country (the language, the weather, the food etc). Players far better than Di Maria and Silva have failed totally in the premiership (Veron, Shevchenko, Robinho, Morientes for starters), others have taken one or two seasons to adjust to the demands of the english game (Thierry Henry, Evra, Vidic). International football is totally irrelevant to what happens at United (Milan Baros super player at international level didn't look so clever at Liverpool, Poborsky similarly at United). Getting 40 games a season and starting say 15 with a similar number off the bench are completely different scenarios. Take a look at Diego Forlan's career to see what a difference it can make to a player's confidence if he is in the team week in week out.

You obviously believe that just because a player can perform at a high level in environment A that they can automatically take their talents into a very different situation B and still have a similar impact. The game is far more complicated than that. One more name for you: Mendieta, one of the top players in the world when he left Valencia, complete disaster for Lazio.

Obertan is not being asked to play in the World Cup or European Championships. Nor is he expected to start 35 games a season for Valencia. We have space for a player to start Carling Cup, FA cup and a few premiership matches and come off the bench to try to save us when we need a late goal.
 
I can see Obertan has definitely got stronger and fitter from the first time I saw him. Yet he is too careless in possession alot of the time, but can also do a lot of good things. If he can do more of the simple thing, and cut out most of his showboating, then he has a decent chance. I also consider him a striker.
 
kundalini said:
You clearly have not followed the long history of foreign players taking time to adapt to english football and indeed life in this country (the language, the weather, the food etc). Players far better than Di Maria and Silva have failed totally in the premiership (Veron, Shevchenko, Robinho, Morientes for starters),
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All those players achieved more in England than Obertan has so far, even Morientes was better in his first season (January to January) than Obertan was and the others were in fact far better. Now you'd expect that, because they're established players and Obertan is a youngster, but that was never your point. You planly stated they were unlikely to have a better first season which is pure bullshit as even some of the biggest ****s in Premier League history had considerably better first seasons than Obertan had.


others have taken one or two seasons to adjust to the demands of the english game (Thierry Henry, Evra, Vidic).
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They were still all far better in their first season than Obertan.

International football is totally irrelevant to what happens at United (Milan Baros super player at international level didn't look so clever at Liverpool, Poborsky similarly at United). Getting 40 games a season and starting say 15 with a similar number off the bench are completely different scenarios. Take a look at Diego Forlan's career to see what a difference it can make to a player's confidence if he is in the team week in week out.
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So football is irrelevant to showing whether a player will be a success at a football club? Righto then :lol: What I think you meant to say before you picked up that big 'ol shovel and dug your hole even deeper into the retarded point you made initially is that international football in no guarentee of success, which it isn't but it's a good barometer. You can't have proven yourself to suceed at United unless you've actually played for us but strangely Sir Alex seems to ignore this and still god forbid sign players year after year and do you know how he does this? He looks at club form, international form, ability and so on. And let's not pretend Obertan has been a success at this club, far from it. He's shown he has some ability but not enough for Sir Alex's liking hence why he's not featured for the first team at the business end of the season.

Yeah, you can pull out of a few names of players like Baros (who still achieved infinitely more in England than Obertan has) but there's also the fact that a shit load do adapt and like Henry and Ronaldo become the best damn players in the league. If Sir Alex was a thick as you and so terrified of signing players (because NOT signing players is cool right now in a post FM fanbase) we'd still be fielding Djemba and Miller. Thankfully Sir Alex knows when a player isn't good enough (most of the time) and addresses the problem. Instead of assuming every player who isn't on our books is unproven and crap and everyone we have who is under 21 is the next Maradona.

You obviously believe that just because a player can perform at a high level in environment A that they can automatically take their talents into a very different situation B and still have a similar impact. The game is far more complicated than that. One more name for you: Mendieta, one of the top players in the world when he left Valencia, complete disaster for Lazio.
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No. I believe that a player who has shown he can perform at the highest level in Enviroment A is much more likely to perform in Enviroment B than a player like Obertan who has never performed anywhere in any enviroment, unless you call the reserves a valid enviroment but I'll take being good in the Euros and La Liga over the Man Utd reserves any day. He couldn't even cut it in France and he's not even good enough for the bench according to Fergie right now, and you rate him over a player who starts for the worlds best national side? Madness.

Obertan is not being asked to play in the World Cup or European Championships. Nor is he expected to start 35 games a season for Valencia. We have space for a player to start Carling Cup, FA cup and a few premiership matches and come off the bench to try to save us when we need a late goal.
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So having not won the Champions League, being very unlikely to win the Premiership you want to club to not strengthen? I don't see anything wrong with some healthy competition and if Silva were to come in and outperform our wingers or Anderson (and I believe he would and is better than all of them) then great, the squad improves and everyone is happy.

But all that said, I'm not even sure Silva is the right player for us specifically. I just think that your comment that Silva would be unlikely to have a better first season than Obertan has had for us, is the most laughably ridiculous post I've read this week.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
That isn't true at all.
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Yes it is. He was loaned out by Bordeaux because he wasn't good enough at the time and so went to Lorient to get some play time where he played 17 games and scored 2 goals. After that Bordeaux were happy to see him leave for a measely £3m. And judging by the reaction at Bordeaux they couldn't for the life of themselves figure out why on earth we signed him.

If he wasn't French and had come through our system people wouldn't be interested in this kid and much better players than him at his current level have left us because they weren't good enough (Eagles, Shawcross, Richardson).
 
Myxomatosis said:
Yes it is. He was loaned out by Bordeaux because he wasn't good enough at the time and so went to Lorient to get some play time where he played 17 games and scored 2 goals..
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It is because of what he did at Lorient that we signed him. Just because Bordeaux were willing to let him go for 3m doesn't mean much frankly.

Furthermore, remember De laet? He couldn't cut it at Stoke nor Wrexham. Yet he has even future for our first team since he arrived. You need to quit jumping the gun with this kid. He is no where near as bad as your making out. In fact it's quite the opposite. You really have no need to knock him terribly when comparing him to a Silva.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
It is because of what he did at Lorient that we signed him. Just because Bordeaux
were willing to let him go for 3 m doesn't mean much frankly.
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I think it means something. I mean he was their player you'd fancy them to know him better than we did. I believe he was injured when he signed him but when he got fit again we played him a fair few times, he started off okay and then looked well out of his depth later on.

Furthermore, remebr De laet? He couldn't cut it at Stoke. Yet he has even future for our first team since he arrived. You need to quit jumping the gun with this kid. He is no where near as bad as your making out. Infact it's quite the opposite.
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The thing is, he's clearly not completely without merit as he showed against Wolfsburg, but he has a long, long way to go and so much to work on in every facet of his game before he meets the standards we need in a permanant first teamer. Perhaps he will develop into one but I personally think it's much more likely he won't. I mean we signed Nani and Anderson at the same age we picked Obertan up and both looked way more promising in their first season and since then neither have really pushed on to be where we hoped they would be, although Nani has been excellent the last three months it has to be said. I'd say both Nani and Anderson are more talented than Obertan as well, much more natural ability so I really can't understand how people forsee this guy pushing on to be a major player for us I really don't.
 
@Myxomatosis,
There was times when we all considered Obertan better than Nani due to his pace and short passing, I consider that a great start to his United career. I don't know what you are getting on about, Obertan has rarely had chances yet to want to call for his head. Would another Berbatov Signing work ? Or do we have to go fo Messi to satisfy you ?
 
Myxomatosis said:
I think it means something. I mean he was their player you'd fancy them to know him better than we did.
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Supposedly. The same way Stoke should have been able to have more use for a De laet than us. But football is strange that way sometimes. One man's poison can be a another man's meat.


Myxomatosis said:
I believe he was injured when he signed him but when he got fit again we played him a fair few times, he started off okay and then looked well out of his depth later on.
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Understandably so. Firstly he is still very young and in experienced and he also had no pre- season with us. That had to catch up with him sometime. But now he is starting to show why we tracked him for so long and spent money on him.


Myxomatosis said:
The thing is, he's clearly not completely without merit as he showed against Wolfsburg, but he has a long, long way to go and so much to work on in every facet of his game before he meets the standards we need in a permanant first teamer. Perhaps he will develop into one but I personally think it's much more likely he won't. I mean we signed Nani and Anderson at the same age we picked Obertan up and both looked way more promising in their first season and since then neither have really pushed on to be where we hoped they would be, although Nani has been excellent the last three months it has to be said. I'd say both Nani and Anderson are more talented than Obertan as well, much more natural ability so I really can't understand how people forsee this guy pushing on to be a major player for us I really don't.
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That is because you are already writing off the merits of Anderson and Nani. Long before they even reach the age in which young players truly start to come into there own. IMO You simply need to be more patient and less harsh with your judgments. Especially with player like these who have shown in glimpses they can rub shoulders with the best.

I'm willing to bet the 3 of them are going to be far better players than you and most on here ever imagined, in the future. Nani, the oldest of the 3 has already started to get there more recognizably. I expect Anderson to follow suit. Then eventually Obertan. For there is no doubt those boys have bags of natural talent and more importantly, the right attitude.
 
Obertan has all the credentials to make it here. He has blistering pace and he can cross the ball well. His dribbling isn't the bets but still good.Has a decent shot on him. His decision making will improve over time and he really need to bulk up. Far too lanky at the moment.
I am prepared to give him time.
 
He's 21 years old. I think our expectations have all been somewhat distorted by freaks like Messi, Rooney, Ronaldo, Fabregas etc. in that we expect most players to be ready for regular first team football by the time they are 20. Obertan seems to have all the technical attributes in good nick and now it is just the physical and the mental preparation that are in need of fine tuning.

I don't think he will be ready to be a regular member of the squad next season but he is improving and will get better. I expect him to be a household name in three years
 
I kinda agree with Myxomatosis about Obertan being some way off lighting up Old trafford. Nani and Valencia have been very good, but they are not yet at Ronaldo or Rooney level, players who can change the game in an instant. Having said that, I can't see Obertan improving so much within the next 6-10 months to lift our squad enough to compete on all front next year. We have bought 3-4 youngsters, but we also need experience ready made players or some really up and coming recognizable world talent to come in and improve our squad.
I was very excited about Obertan when we signed him. But to be honest, anyone like Silva or Di Maria is way ahead and would imediately make an impact. Just browse the Internet, see how many editors thought we lacked enough quality squad depth. Macheda, Diouf, Wellbeck etc. are "close" to breaking through, but not yet are they. Just imagine meeting Bayern again next year and we field Macheda, Diouf, and Obertan on the team sheet, I bet people here won't be full of confidence would they.
 
Myxomatosis said:
Silva is a much better player than Nani. He basically does everything Nani does only he's not as wasteful in possession and can pass the ball. Despite Nani's excellent form Silva would have to **** in England big time in order to be edged out of the team by Nani. Not to mention that A) Nani is right footed anyway so Silva could easilly replace Valencia and B) Silva actually plays in midfield for Valencia so he'd be replacing Anderson/Giggs in our 4-5-1/4-3-3 formation.
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What?

Nani is a far better crosser of the ball than Silva and he has decent amount more pace than him too. Nani has also shown up very well against the big sides this season. Chelsea in the charity shield - okay its just the charity shield. We can discount that. What we cant discount is Arsenal, City, Liverpool and Bayern Munich performances. He's been a big game player for us this season.

David Silva isnt and has never been that. Far too often he's on the periphery of the game and his contribution is "good" but minimal. He drifts out of games for large spells and he's very rarely one of Valencia's best couple of players. I can count how many times he has been on one hand in the almost 3 seasons I've been watching Valencia each week.

Now dont get me wrong he has loads of talent and loads of technical ability. If he worked harder to produce consistantly, stay more involved in games, score more goals and turn up for the big matches now and again then he could be one of the top players in world football. And he's still young enough to improve all that and do it. However right now he doesnt do it. He's a very talented, very technically gifted "good" player, rather than one of the great players out there. He needs to push on.

Also, no he doesnt play in midfield for Valencia. He plays in the hole behind David Villa in the same way Berbatov played behind Rooney last season and Park has played behind Rooney this season. Thats his central attacking midfield position for Valencia, as David Villa's main support. He has played 2 times in Valencia's central midfield, both times in a midfield 3 and both times Valencia were awful. He needs to learn defensive responsibilities if he's going to play in central midfield. Now there's no reason he cant learn those defensive responsibilities and become a central midfield option in the future. But it wont happen at the start of next season. It would be a work in progress like Rooney the lead the line striker was a long term plan and took several seasons before he was brilliant at it like he is.

Right now Silva would obviously be a better option than Obertan though as you said.
 
Eto'odinho said:
He's 21 years old. I think our expectations have all been somewhat distorted by freaks like Messi, Rooney, Ronaldo, Fabregas etc. in that we expect most players to be ready for regular first team football by the time they are 20. Obertan seems to have all the technical attributes in good nick and now it is just the physical and the mental preparation that is in need of fine tuning.

I don't think he will be ready to be a regular member of the squad next season but he is improving and will get better. I expect him to be a household name three years
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Well said...

At the moment he needs our encouragement everytime he plays...the coaching staff will bring him on.
 
What is this logic that he couldn't "cut in France" ? How can you conclude that from the fact Bordeaux let him go ? They just didn't need him and his attitude was not best so they decided to get rid but it doesn't discredit his talent or the fact he hasn't made in France.He was given proper time to establish himself and he doesn't to a certain level of top class young players that someone mentioned.
Not every kid can be as good as say Rooney at the same age but it doesn't mean they haven't played well or haven't achieved anything
 
kouroux said:
What is this logic that he couldn't "cut in France" ? How can you conclude that from the fact Bordeaux let him go ? They just didn't need him and his attitude was not best so they decided to get rid but it doesn't discredit his talent or the fact he hasn't made in France.He was given proper time to establish himself and he doesn't to a certain level of top class young players that someone mentioned.
Not every kid can be as good as say Rooney at the same age but it doesn't mean they haven't played well or haven't achieved anything
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Well said.

I also remember someone saying that he was one of the hottest prospects in France, whose development happened to stall for a year or two.

Bearing in mind we apparently discovered, and sorted out, a long-term back injury it's not unreasonable to expect he can his career back on track at United and fulfil the immense early promise he showed in France.
 
RedThaiDevils#7 said:
@Myxomatosis,
There was times when we all considered Obertan better than Nani due to his pace and short passing, I consider that a great start to his United career. I don't know what you are getting on about, Obertan has rarely had chances yet to want to call for his head. Would another Berbatov Signing work ? Or do we have to go fo Messi to satisfy you ?
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I never ever considered Obertan better than Nani that's for sure, but if you did fair enough. I am not calling for his head, I am saying that as yet he is nowhere near good enough and given our lack of success this year I would like to see someone come in right now who can challenge Valencia and Nani for their places.

Eto'odinho said:
He's 21 years old. I think our expectations have all been somewhat distorted by freaks like Messi, Rooney, Ronaldo, Fabregas etc. in that we expect most players to be ready for regular first team football by the time they are 20. Obertan seems to have all the technical attributes in good nick and now it is just the physical and the mental preparation that are in need of fine tuning.

I don't think he will be ready to be a regular member of the squad next season but he is improving and will get better. I expect him to be a household name in three years
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I don't expect him to be good enough yet, it's clear he was never going to be when we signed him and I am well aware we bought a work in progress. That's fine. What I don't see is why this guy is apparently almost nailed on to make it when it my opinion Richardson and Eagles were both better overall players at his age and didn't make it here. Nani and Anderson were far better at his age and still have really cemented their place at long term first teamers. What makes you think Obertain has what it takes where Richardson and Eagles didn't?
 
Myxomatosis said:
I never ever considered Obertan better than Nani that's for sure, but if you did fair enough. I am not calling for his head, I am saying that as yet he is nowhere near good enough and given our lack of success this year I would like to see someone come in right now who can challenge Valencia and Nani for their places.
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Lack of success, we were a Rooney injury away from winning the league and probably getting to the semi finals of the CL.

Nani and Valencia have both been integral parts of making that happen (Nani in 2010, Valencia from day one)

Out wingers have been the least of our problems this season.
 
Top said:
Lack of success, we were a Rooney injury away from winning the league and probably getting to the semi finals of the CL.

Nani and Valencia have both been integral parts of making that happen (Nani in 2010, Valencia from day one)

Out wingers have been the least of our problems this season.
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Yep, and it's not good enough that we're fecked without him. We need more options. And that's why we should go for someone likes Silva who is capable of playing on the wing and in midfield.

It's a bit presumptious by the way to say that we would have won the league with Rooney fit, it was by no means a guarentee.
 
Myxomatosis said:
Yep, and it's not good enough that we're fecked without him. We need more options. And that's why we should go for someone likes Silva who is capable of playing on the wing and in midfield.

It's a bit presumptious by the way to say that we would have won the league with Rooney fit, it was by no means a guarentee.
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You want us to build a squad strong enough to guarantee winning the league? I'm afraid you're in for a dissapointment.

As it stands we came fecking close, despite horrific injury problems at the back, so all this talk of an urgent need for major re-building is a tad hysterical.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
You want us to build a squad strong enough to guarantee winning the league? I'm afraid you're in for a dissapointment.

As it stands we came fecking close, despite horrific injury problems at the back, so all this talk of an urgent need for major re-building is a tad hysterical.
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I'm not suggesting major rebuilding at all. I want to see one or two more attacking options come in who are right now good enough to push for a permanant first team spot. They don't need to be £40m players, it would just be pretty nice to have enough options so we're not solely relient on Rooney to win us games against decent opposition.
 
Myxomatosis said:
I'm not suggesting major rebuilding at all. I want to see one or two more attacking options come in who are right now good enough to push for a permanant first team spot. They don't need to be £40m players, it would just be pretty nice to have enough options so we're not solely relient on Rooney to win us games against decent opposition.
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This. There is a good chance that Rooney is going to pick up an injury or two at some point during a season when he is starting basically every game when fit.

Without Rooney we have struggled, and whilst we arent quite a one man team, he is pretty much our only goal threat. I can understand why Owen was bought but if his fitness is as questionable as it seems, we need another player that we can bring on who is capable of scoring goals for us consistently. They dont need to be a £40m superstar to provide that.
 
I can't see the link between De Maria/Silva and the Obretan guy. I mean its not as if SAF would be keen to spend 20-30m on a player to make him compete with backup players wouldn't he? The argument here should be whether Nani had done enough to claim the left wing place. If yes, then we shouldn't get De Maria/Silva. If not then the De Maria/Silva option would be considered. I doubt that SAF would spend 20-30m on a left winger and still keep Nani as much as I doubt that Nani would be happy to accept the bench for long term after doing so well at the final stages of the season.
 
meh he still needs a long while before he'll be good enough IMHO
 
Didn't understand it when he came on, we never looked like shifting the ball out to the wings so he could really open up and get going.

If SWP hadn't come on and sured up that side then he would of had a better go of it imo.

Give him a pre-season with us I think we'll start seeing some steady progress next season.
 
He took ages on the ball, but in the end found Evra which is all that matters.

Good on Fergie to give Obey a chance after his impressive performances for the reserves.
 
Hard to judge on such a short appearance, but the experience will have done him no harm at all
 
In all honesty he was pretty fecking gash lets not kid ourselves here, dwelt on the ball and gave away silly fouls but hey hes just a kid, good pass to Evra that led to the goal even if it took him seemingly a month of sundays to actually see Evra in half a pitch of space!
 
soapythecat said:
Fergie must see something in the lad to throw him into that match, especially with a result riding on it.
Maybe it is just match confidence needed...
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I'd say it was desperation to some extent, a bit like Macheda coming on against Villa. Throw someone in there that they don't know a whole lot about, and you might catch them off guard...
 
Allforone said:
In all honesty he was pretty fecking gash lets not kid ourselves here, dwelt on the ball and gave away silly fouls but hey hes just a kid, good pass to Evra that led to the goal even if it took him seemingly a month of sundays to actually see Evra in half a pitch of space!
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:wenger: Throw him in the deep end after he's played several months in the Reserves. Then let's judge him based on 10 minutes of play(none of which really went down the left wing through him) surrounded by massively shit football. That's a brilliant idea.
 
We can't learn nothing from that cameo. He was abit overenthusiastic with his tackling and clumsy with the ball but that was to be expected coming into a fast and furious game like that.
 
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