I love it when someone comes out with this sort of trash.
It’s great for having a discussion.
Fred is one of the most underrated players in England
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It’s great for having a discussion.
I really want him to do well. A huge fan of how tirelessly he tracks the ball and hounds the opposition but unfortunately he's just not got the quality we need offensively to get us to where we want to be and It's only a matter of time before he'll be out the starting eleven. For a team like ours where the forwards are encouraged to take risks because we rely on moments of quality interplay or individual brilliance (rather than a system to win matches), the midfield needs to bring the composure that create a base from which we build and probe until something special happens. Fred just isn't equipped to give us this. I think him, Martial and Lindelof will need to be replaced with players that better suit our style for us to have success.
This team needs work, especially if we lose Pogba in the summer, who by the way isn't perfect but it's far easier to teach Pogba what Fred does than to teach Fred what Pogba does.
This team needs work, especially if we lose Pogba in the summer, who by the way isn't perfect but it's far easier to teach Pogba what Fred does than to teach Fred what Pogba does.
Fred is a good player and there is no way we are selling him. We need to replace Pogba and Matic (and in 1 year potentially cut losses on vdb if he doesn't come good). First replace those players with others who are good enough to displace Fred from our best team. He's a valuable squad member.
Seriously dumbfounded by some of the posts I've seen in this thread. Hope we are all talking about Fred the Manchester United midfielder?
You're fighting a losing battle.
People will see the numbers, realize they don't like what they're saying, and default to the "eye test" to say "nah, he's actually a crap passer and a donkey". Like that guy a few posts above who said "good pass percentage? Okay, but let's see forward passes! HA!" and will no doubt find a way to tell you the numbers you provided are useless because lolstats.
I don't have much time for Fred myself, and I fundamentally disagree with the topic title. But even I'm not going to try and argue McTominay is a better passer or Mark Noble gets into this team over him.
I don't think he's underrated or overrated. He's just very average.
Good squad player.
Good squad player.
I like him, and agree with the view, that he is a 'very good squad player'.
His pass to Rashford the other night was divine..... as bad as some were yesterday.
Love this beauty too. (sorry if the attachment is handled wrong, 1st time posting a link)
His pass to Rashford the other night was divine..... as bad as some were yesterday.
Love this beauty too. (sorry if the attachment is handled wrong, 1st time posting a link)
This is exactly what is happening @MadDogg - McT has never produced an assist as Fred did for Rashford vs Sociedad and it's not the first ball Fred's played like that. It's just the first someone delivered on scoring from.
There is a genuine bias for the young academy lad (understandably) where people have decided it's one or the other and are falling head over heels to claim McT is a more creative player than Fred. It's the opposite. What Scott has over fred is aerial ability and (wait for it) shooting & scoring. McT is young though and is improving. The reality is that we don't have to choose and if we improve defence they will be given freer reins.
Everyone including Pogba makes crap passes. Last season Pogba made a particular pass straight out of touch that was harangued for weeks on end for it. This was from harry "ball-playing CB" maguire yesterday:
They all do it because they are trying to pass into space for teammates to run on to, but if the teammate is on a different wavelength then it looks crap.
This lad if you believe posts on here cannot pass forward, create chances or beat a press:
I think people are really stuck into their positions here and won't really change their minds, but I'll still try.
My belief (and what the data says) is that Fred is a good passer that links the defence to the attack. He won't really setup assists or slice the defence apart with crazy through balls like Ozil or KdB but he's good at receiving the ball deep and progressing it higher up the pitch to attacking players in space. By good, I mean he's as good as other CL quality midfielders at this - he's certainly not a Toni Kroos or a Thiago or even a Jorginho but certainly as good as others like Kante and better than proper DMs like Fabinho.
Happy to discuss with anyone else who can bring data to support their thesis because I'm just a random guy who's interested in footy data and yeah I might be totally missing something.
- If you believe he makes sideways passes - See the Progressive passes stat. It will simply exclude all passes that didn't progress the ball towards the opponents.
- If you believe he makes short passes only - look at Passes completed (short), Passes completed (medium), Passes completed (long) and his percentiles for that.
- If you believe he makes too many errors while passing: See Passes Intercepted, Passes blocked, Passes out of bounds). These actually have data that says Fred is significantly below average across top 5 leagues, but I think this is because he attempts to progress the ball forwards than play the safe sideways pass. But yeah some data there for the haters.
My belief (and what the data says) is that Fred is a good passer that links the defence to the attack. He won't really setup assists or slice the defence apart with crazy through balls like Ozil or KdB but he's good at receiving the ball deep and progressing it higher up the pitch to attacking players in space. By good, I mean he's as good as other CL quality midfielders at this - he's certainly not a Toni Kroos or a Thiago or even a Jorginho but certainly as good as others like Kante and better than proper DMs like Fabinho.
Happy to discuss with anyone else who can bring data to support their thesis because I'm just a random guy who's interested in footy data and yeah I might be totally missing something.
- If you believe he makes sideways passes - See the Progressive passes stat. It will simply exclude all passes that didn't progress the ball towards the opponents.
- If you believe he makes short passes only - look at Passes completed (short), Passes completed (medium), Passes completed (long) and his percentiles for that.
- If you believe he makes too many errors while passing: See Passes Intercepted, Passes blocked, Passes out of bounds). These actually have data that says Fred is significantly below average across top 5 leagues, but I think this is because he attempts to progress the ball forwards than play the safe sideways pass. But yeah some data there for the haters.
Haha got you! Noone wants to have a discussion with someone like you, sorry. Get rid. Why am I even replying to you, you're like this annoying kid at the class who always brings up some nonsense after nonsense and noone wants to listen to him but because teacher likes to play it proper, he always gets his time to talk.
If you reply to me, you go to my ignore list, really don't care about your so called "opinions". period.
toys. Pram. Done. Get me on ignore, you won’t be replying with your trash and I don’t even have to lift a finger.
I can see why people consider him as a "bad passer" despite him putting up decent numbers however you look at the data. At times he misplaces a pass completely, or puts a wrong weight on it. It just looks like a terrible miss.
I don't really have an issue with that, if he sticks to the basic stuff he's OK. What's important is his bad passes are rarely intercepted and it rarely leads to a dangerous situation. He has poor technique, opposed to Pogba who has great technique but loses focus. His passing can be dangerous for either team.
We need Fred if we want to continue playing heavy and lazy front 4.
I don't really have an issue with that, if he sticks to the basic stuff he's OK. What's important is his bad passes are rarely intercepted and it rarely leads to a dangerous situation. He has poor technique, opposed to Pogba who has great technique but loses focus. His passing can be dangerous for either team.
We need Fred if we want to continue playing heavy and lazy front 4.
The problem is that its usually a basic pass that he gets completely wrong. Its not the more progressive pass he may play in the middle, its what should be an easy pass for someone in his position.
With players like Pogba you take a pass thats unlike him and inaccurate and weigh it against the top class passes he can play to unlock a defence. You dont mind him having a poor touch or pass when he should do better if later in the match he comes up with something special to make something happen.
With Fred you are weighing up one bad touch under pressure in his own half with a better touch under pressure in his own half, or one poor simple pass that goes out of play for getting another simple pass correct after. Theres very little yield in return for the bad play. Because he doesn't often attempt something that will have an effect on the scoreline. He tries to play simple passes into other players who will then take the risk to make something happen
Fred is currently 28.
When his legs and workrate diminish, will he be good enough to get into the side based on his composure and passing alone?
When his legs and workrate diminish, will he be good enough to get into the side based on his composure and passing alone?
Few players are good enough at an Elite/PL level when their legs are gone, unless they are a choles or Pirlo type of passer. It's part of the game at the top. Evra's legs were done when he left us, but looked good enough in the slower Serie A at the time.
If you're "weighting" bad and good things each player does, there's a lot more stuff Fred does well that makes us more balanced side. Personally I have no issue with him not adding anything to the scoreline, there is front 4 + fullbacks joining the attack which is enough. In his case, it's the defensive side of his game that troubles me.
Pogba is opposite to Fred in a way he makes things happen, and has a good pass/shot on him, but with Paul in the middle the play is less fluid so I'm not really a fan.
I really didn't mean this to become a big "thing". I made a semi-long post about Fred's positive attributes and negatives as well, and I've come to the conclusion that in my mind, Fred is properly rated. He is elite at a couple of things -- pressure and workrate -- and pretty much average or below average in everything else.
I thought everyone was seeing what I see with Fred and his deficiencies. He's not a particularly accurate passer of the ball. Actually, let me rephrase: he's error prone in his passing. If you watch carefully, he has two to three square, 10 yards passes every match which literally go out of bounds. I do not see that with Matic and Scotty. Pogba at times.
This has led to a lot of posting of passing accuracy stats, where many have pointed out that Fred is actually our most accurate passer of the ball as a midfielder.
The passing accuracy data is pretty flimsy in my opinion. Kevin De Bruyne, probably the best passer of the football in this generation, is in the 7th percentile in passing accuracy for midfielders. He attempts passes that mere mortals don't think about, and that's why his numbers are so low. How do we know this? Because we watch football. Also, he attempts a lot of forward passes. But I think if you polled coaches, journalists and other football insiders, there would be a consensus the KDB is a great passer, despite his low completion rates. He is a very accurate passer and makes very few mistakes.
https://fbref.com/en/players/e46012d4/Kevin-De-Bruyne
Back to Fred. He is an important part of the squad. He is usually my choice to be in our first 11. But in my opinion, in order to challenge for a league title, we need a more reliable ball distributor in that position.
And, as I have been constant in my opinion, he does have this ability but doesnt produce game after game. Great engine but offers little else consistency wise. I cannot agree he is “one of most underrated players in UK”
I often think his passing stats are so high as opponents are happy for him to have the ball front of defense as he is rarely a threat. The arguements start on here due to individual mistakes highlighted but unfortunately his errors are glaring.
Fred would have been a good player if he could tackle...but even in that event, particularly as we play with a two man midfield, he doesn't offer enough to be a starter. People forget, the key to being a good premier league box to box player is having a sound idea of when the ball is going to drop and having the technique, touch and awareness to command possession and spread it to more dangerous players. Fred hasn't proven to be able to do that. He also struggles when playing deeper as he doesn't have the composure or first touch to offer our attackers an outlet to reduce the pressure of being closed down higher up the pitch, a skill which every title winning starting midfielder has always had. He also doesn't provide an outlet for our defenders, as his awareness and positioning are off and his lack of composure forces and inability to keep possession under threat ( which is a skill) forces him to give the ball back to our keeper or backline almost every time....Maguire, Wan Bissaka and Shaw are actually better at handling one on one duels in which they're the ones with the ball ( this shouldn't be the case). Finally, and most importantly, his inability to read and position himself to handle dangerous situations allows any team to counter against us through the middle. He doesn't have the awareness to plus holes in counter attacking situations, which means that unlike City or Liverpool where counters are easily turned into set defence situation or even killed off entirely due to great positioning, with Fred, unless Maguire handles it or Wan Bissaka deals creates a high turnover, we are consistently threatened with counters whenever we lose the ball high up the pitch when Fred plays as the DM.
This is pretty simply explained, however for some reason the one stat that site doesnt seem to have is key passes which I think is clearly a superior measure of how well you are finding the front players who can then have an attempt on goal than the pretty weird shot creating actions, where KDB is still extremely high but someone can be credited for a tackle on the halfway line rather than a defense splitting pass.
The most key passes in the league out of all players who have played more than 1 single 90 minutes is K D B with 3.5 on average per 90 mins
So yes absolutely, he's trying to make things happen a bit like Bruno but more consistently. Grealish has 3.4 and Bruno 3.0
If people think that Fred is a below average Premier League midfielder, then the OP is right. They're underrating him.
But if people think that Fred is an above average Premier League midfielder, then they're overrating him.
But if people think that Fred is an above average Premier League midfielder, then they're overrating him.
I would say overrated on here for sure but maybe not in the general footballing world. I've only heard him get praised as one of our best on the odd occasion from commentary etc.
He's good as a pressing hard working willing runner and he can occasionally make a nice pass. His technique for his long passing is good but his decision making isnt great so sometimes he messes up something you would think would be easy for him.
I think because we don't have perfectly balanced options you can make the case for him being a regular starter in our 4-2-3-1 as overall he's probably more effective defensively than Matic and McTominay in defending when the ball is on the floor. If we had a good DM in their prime I'd take that over him but we don't. Matic is still good on the ball when we're going forward but Fred's hard work is probably more effective defensively than Matic's smaller movement.
But I'd say Pogba and McTominay are currently better midfielders overall, its just that their their best skills are going forward and Fred's pressing and accumulative tackles help the defence more than Pogba or McTominay other than in the air. But with Lindelof being behind them and often De Gea in goal, having a DM who is weak in the air like Fred instead of 1 of the 3 options we have for DM who are tall and good in the air, its not always as simple as just choosing who is best defending when the ball is on the floor.
I'd give Fred a 7/10 overall and I do think he could get a bit better at not getting beat, he could improve his concentration and not mess up some simple passes or touches. But he's in his prime years now so it has to happen soon because if you're looking beyond the short term then McTominay and our youth development is more important than Fred in his prime improving. If for McTominay is going to play a decent amount and young midfielders are going to be given a chance in the first team to make it then Fred and Matic will need to make way for them. Matic alone wouldnt be enough games.
VDB, Garner after he returns from Forest and now Hannibal is training with the first team. Not sure Galbraith is going to get ahead of any of those but he's getting a look in. And thats without signing a secure DM which would help the defence.
He's good as a pressing hard working willing runner and he can occasionally make a nice pass. His technique for his long passing is good but his decision making isnt great so sometimes he messes up something you would think would be easy for him.
I think because we don't have perfectly balanced options you can make the case for him being a regular starter in our 4-2-3-1 as overall he's probably more effective defensively than Matic and McTominay in defending when the ball is on the floor. If we had a good DM in their prime I'd take that over him but we don't. Matic is still good on the ball when we're going forward but Fred's hard work is probably more effective defensively than Matic's smaller movement.
But I'd say Pogba and McTominay are currently better midfielders overall, its just that their their best skills are going forward and Fred's pressing and accumulative tackles help the defence more than Pogba or McTominay other than in the air. But with Lindelof being behind them and often De Gea in goal, having a DM who is weak in the air like Fred instead of 1 of the 3 options we have for DM who are tall and good in the air, its not always as simple as just choosing who is best defending when the ball is on the floor.
I'd give Fred a 7/10 overall and I do think he could get a bit better at not getting beat, he could improve his concentration and not mess up some simple passes or touches. But he's in his prime years now so it has to happen soon because if you're looking beyond the short term then McTominay and our youth development is more important than Fred in his prime improving. If for McTominay is going to play a decent amount and young midfielders are going to be given a chance in the first team to make it then Fred and Matic will need to make way for them. Matic alone wouldnt be enough games.
VDB, Garner after he returns from Forest and now Hannibal is training with the first team. Not sure Galbraith is going to get ahead of any of those but he's getting a look in. And thats without signing a secure DM which would help the defence.
He's very Fellaini-esque. Can have some good moments, other moments he looks out of his depth, for me - this has parallels to when Fellaini was dribbling the ball out for a throw-in. I wouldn't lose sleep if we sold him, workhorse midfielders are very easy to find - it's those that have additional qualities on top of being a runner that stands out and unfortunately Fred won't get you goals, win any aerial battles or control games.
Great post. I've been arguing the case for Fred in this thread for ages. What really really pisses me off about the Fred is shit brigade is that they ignore the very same thing from his more illustrious teammates. Most of whom make just as many poor passes as Fred. They have what you might call a Fred bias, they completely ignore him until he misplaces a pass and then ask Gif lord to make a clip of that awful pass, exactly like the one for Maguire above. Bruno and Rashford do this a dozen time per game between them.
Anyway I'm sure they would still argue he is a shit passer even after watching that 11 minute clip.
The other stat they tend to ignore is the fact that out of the 7 games we have lost this season, Fred has only played in 2 of them. So we tend to lose when Fred doesnt play, what an amazing coincidence.
Well he’s playing great so far tonight.
You critisize the “Fred sh*t brigade” as they ignore the same thing from teammates?
So you agree Fred makes poor passes then.
My view is that he is not consistent and has flashes of quality. I see nothing underrated thats all.
Yes he makes poor passes, no question but that's doesnt make him a poor passer or a crap player. I've already said in this thread that he is no Pirlo but neither is he Joey Barton.
Wouldnt really agree with you on the flashes of quality, I think he is among our more consistent performers but would concede he hasn't been great last few games (not watching tonight).
Probably overrated by his admirers and underrated by his detractors in general I think.
And First Season ?I am afraid that I probably used a word “bias” inappropriately because it is probably way to strong. Maybe a better wording is “subjective opinion”. However, sometimes there is no real difference between them. But the reality is that when people has developed an opinion, sometimes that opinion will drive it further and further and eventually affect the adjustment not balanced anymore. This is what I tried to express. No offense, it’s my own subjective opinion
Re: Fred Passing -
You have to look at the context of a pass, the technique - with lots of time and space (no pressure) is a pass I would expect and elite midfielder to make over varying distances.
Does Fred have the ability to make those forward passes under pressure and turn the technique into a skill and create attacks consistently?
You have to look at the context of a pass, the technique - with lots of time and space (no pressure) is a pass I would expect and elite midfielder to make over varying distances.
Does Fred have the ability to make those forward passes under pressure and turn the technique into a skill and create attacks consistently?
I find myself extremely annoyed when Fred screw up simple passes (when there is no pressure on him).
I like him a lot for his work rate, the guy runs for the team but some times he does slow down the game (for someone in DM position, I would prefer him to pass the ball to more technically gifted players faster especially when we are countering. He does that but can be improved by a LOT more)
I like him a lot for his work rate, the guy runs for the team but some times he does slow down the game (for someone in DM position, I would prefer him to pass the ball to more technically gifted players faster especially when we are countering. He does that but can be improved by a LOT more)
Just bumping this to remind those who have anointed Fred as underrated.
He was pretty dire I thought in the City game. Defensively active, with great work rate, sure. But going against a midfield like City and you see the gulf in quality. Had a hard time passing, which, is a desired quality in a CM. His last few performances have been pretty bad. Need to upgrade here in the next window.
He was pretty dire I thought in the City game. Defensively active, with great work rate, sure. But going against a midfield like City and you see the gulf in quality. Had a hard time passing, which, is a desired quality in a CM. His last few performances have been pretty bad. Need to upgrade here in the next window.
He works hard and has a good attitude but that should be the bare minimum of anyone in any profession. if he's in regular contention for the first team we wouldn't be challenging for major honours anytime soon.
Only being a destroyer shouldn’t be enough to play regularly on a top-4 team in PL.
Fred is a descent PL midfielder. Probably a perfect match for a mid table team. I can’t imagine him being a regular for City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal or Tottenham, so why should we be happy with him being a regular on United?
He has several limitations, but I don’t mind having him as a squad player. He has great impact under certain circumstances.
Fred is a descent PL midfielder. Probably a perfect match for a mid table team. I can’t imagine him being a regular for City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal or Tottenham, so why should we be happy with him being a regular on United?
He has several limitations, but I don’t mind having him as a squad player. He has great impact under certain circumstances.
He's underrated by rabid United fans who think he's crap. That's about the size of it.
He is not genuinely underrated by people in general. Someone like Carrick was genuinely underrated. And he was a much better player than Fred.
He is not genuinely underrated by people in general. Someone like Carrick was genuinely underrated. And he was a much better player than Fred.
Hmmmm.......but the last time I looked he is playing for a team that's second in the league? Don't understand how fans comment on things that we don't know, yet seem to offer a factual view on things that we don't. Not sure why there seem to be a fixation about Fred when aside from Bruno and Shaw, there a questions about nearly every other player. He is what he is, just seems to be the scapegoat for teams current form causes he not playing well (amongst others) too....
Those of us old enough will remember that Carrick was seen quite negatively for a long time during his career here. Fred is not Utd quality but none of the current team would make the Carrick era either. To be honest, that includes the manager too.....
Heh - compared to Fergie, then yeah.
But that'd be like comparing Fred to Keano - not Carrick.
Actually, that doesn't work either.
It'd be like comparing Fred to Lothar Matthäus.
I’m a fan of his but his recent form has been poor again. It’s harder to defend. People will say that’s what he always plays like but there have been patches where he’s almost been a one man midfield press behind Bruno and that would be impossible to keep up in every game. It’s not easy on the eye but it’s effective.
The hate Carrick got on the CAF was just ridiculous. It was only after he retired that people really started to appreciate him
He would look better alongside a proper DM who is good on the ball but then we lack creativity without Pogba
He was a great player. Always said it.
Had Lampard in his pocket in some key matches Vs Chelsea during the most successful period in that era.
At the same time though, I understand the frustration. Many on here were accusing Carrick of cowardice during some periods where he rarely would play a forward pass - not understanding that that was the role he was playing. A less-tackling Makelele role.
Still, great player but definitely felt like he could have been even better.