[flappyjay]

People want United to control the posession in these games for what? Rashford, martial are useless without space.

When playing on the counter it's essential to control the ball and move the ball on. Unfortunately Fred needs 3 or more touches to control the ball and when he finally decides to pass its either wayward, overhit or the counter chance is gone.

 

[Kweku Amonoo]

If Fred possessed even Darron Gibson’s passing range, he’d be a beast.

 

[paraguayo]

When playing on the counter it's essential to control the ball and move the ball on. Unfortunately Fred needs 3 or more touches to control the ball and when he finally decides to pass its either wayward, overhit or the counter chance is gone.

He has set up innumerous counter attacks this season. He's not a perfect player but by far has the biggest ratio of criticism / actual bad games

 

[laughtersassassin]

Herrera is one of the most overrated players of the last decade.

His performances for PSG shows this.

Very average player who managed to turn fans head around because he seemed to play with passion and I am very happy he left.

I somewhat agree but....

Isn't that the same as Fred but he has even less ball playing ability.

Cause Fred certainly isnt good with the ball

 

[Bebestation]

I somewhat agree but....

Isn't that the same as Fred but he has even less ball playing ability.

Cause Fred certainly isnt good with the ball

I find Fred better defensively.

Herrera's defensive ability was viewed as world class by our fans only after that performance Vs Chelsea and Hazard.

He used to dive and stuff at our CDM an aspect that would be worse during VAR time.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I find Fred better defensively.

Herrera's defensive ability was viewed as world class by our fans only after that performance Vs Chelsea and Hazard.

He used to dive and stuff at our CDM an aspect that would be worse during VAR time.

And Hererra’s ability on the ball is being massively overstated by his fan club on here. His passing could be very sloppy too.

 

[OrcaFat]

His attitude is top notch. His composure and passing ability are not quite up to standard. Hope we upgrade him soon. Still, I love the guy. Would be a great squad player.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Herrera is one of the most overrated players of the last decade.

His performances for PSG shows this.

Very average player who managed to turn fans head around because he seemed to play with passion and I am very happy he left.

He’s not, he was a very good player and would have been really useful for us the last two seasons.

 

[DWelbz19]

Not buying this nonsense anymore about his defensive contributions. The best way to defend is to control the game. There's no point being defensively good if you give the ball away in terrible positions as many times as you win it back.

Need to upgrade in the summer.

Good point. We’d be strong defensively if we had a control of the tempo and a player who is much more assured in keeping the ball, even if said replacement doesn’t intercept or press anywhere near as much as Fred does.

 

[Bebestation]

This shows what Fred was doing at 4mins.

Maybe his attacking game is not great but I think defensively he is a valuable part of our squad.

 

[UncleBob]

Bit of a disaster on the ball.
Same with AWB.

 

[UncleBob]

This shows what Fred was doing at 4mins.

Maybe his attacking game is not great but I think defensively he is a valuable part of our squad.

I'm not really bothered about his attacking game.

The major issue with Fred is that he's a bit shit when it comes to decision making and passing. He'll hold on to it for too long, get crowded and attempt a daft pass that is destined to fail instead of just booting it away, he can have all the time in the world on the ball and casually give it away.

 

[#07]

Fred really puts himself about, which was invaluable yesterday, but if he could use the ball better it'd help us so much. Can't get at him too much cos his dirty work helped us achieve what we were after at the Emptyhad. However, if he could sort out his touch and passing it would help us no end.

 

[crossy1686]

Bit of a disaster on the ball.
Same with AWB.

He's very much our new Park Ji-Sung. Lots of energy and lots of harrying.

 

[RUCK4444]

Bit of a disaster on the ball.
Same with AWB.

AWB is a lot better with the ball at his feet than many give him credit for. Much improved in that regard.

He has decent feet and plays out from tight spaces on the right almost every game.

 

[UncleBob]

He's very much our new Park Ji-Sung. Lots of energy and lots of harrying.

Park was never that fecking bad on the ball.

 

[UncleBob]

AWB is a lot better with the ball at his feet than many give him credit for. Much improved in that regard.

He has decent feet and plays out from tight spaces on the right almost every game.

When AWB gets crowded he's like a deer caught in the headlights. It's better to either boot it out for a throw in or high up the pitch rather than a sideways pass that might go to a teammate. Too often it goes to the opposition.

Both him and Fred have this annoying tendency to carry the ball into situations they can't get out of.

 

[Lay]

Important player despite his passing flaws

 

[Sultan]

Brilliant at pressing, work rate and intensity is remarkable. He's definitely too rash and careless with his passing to an embarrassing degree. On the flip side when we're set up to counter and playing against teams such as City it's not an issue conceding possession. Obviously hurts when we have a chance to counter.

 

[Deleted 112447]

He has been poor on the ball particularly first half, but that is not his usual standard. He lacks composure at times imo; it's a mental thing rather then a technical problem.

 

[Brightonian]

Brilliant at pressing, work rate and intensity is remarkable. He's definitely too rash and careless with his passing to an embarrassing degree. On the flip side when we're set up to counter and playing against teams such as City it's not an issue conceding possession. Obviously hurts when we have a chance to counter.

Sums it up very nicely. He was a little sloppy in the first half yesterday but actually in the second half his passing and forward play weren't bad at all. He has grit. He can play well when we're playing badly, and he is capable of getting hold of himself in games he starts poorly and ending up playing well, both qualities which are rare in footballers and too rare in our squad.

This forum underrates his importance badly. Winning football teams are rarely built of 11 Andres Iniestas. We miss Fred's absence when he's out more than the more technically gifted Pogba or McTominay.

 

[RUCK4444]

When AWB gets crowded he's like a deer caught in the headlights. It's better to either boot it out for a throw in or high up the pitch rather than a sideways pass that might go to a teammate. Too often it goes to the opposition.

Both him and Fred have this annoying tendency to carry the ball into situations they can't get out of.

I agree on Fred but I don't necessarily think that's the case with AWB. He doesn't actually give the ball away very often at all.

I think AWB is improving in his composure and also in his ability going forward including crossing. If he can keep improving those parts of his game it could be great for us.

I think his erratic style of dribbling lends itself to the thinking that he's really clumsy but I think it's a bit exaggerated imo.

 

[laughtersassassin]

People keep saying his attacking game like it can be ignored. Multiple times his ability in the ball in midfield our us under pressure yesterday. We where very luck it was never punished.

And his attacking game and the fact his passing is extremely poor very much does matter in all th games against the worse sides where he sees so much of the ball.

 

[laughtersassassin]

Sums it up very nicely. He was a little sloppy in the first half yesterday but actually in the second half his passing and forward play weren't bad at all. He has grit. He can play well when we're playing badly, and he is capable of getting hold of himself in games he starts poorly and ending up playing well, both qualities which are rare in footballers and too rare in our squad.

This forum underrates his importance badly. Winning football teams are rarely built of 11 Andres Iniestas. We miss Fred's absence when he's out more than the more technically gifted Pogba or McTominay.

Not true on Pogba. We miss Pogba way more partly because he is the only one who can pass the ball.

 

[Rossa]

I like Fred, and I think he sometimes gets too much stick on here as people want him to be Scholes and Kante pressed into one, which no player is, really. However, yesterday he was poor. His passing was too sloppy as was his first touch. In his defence, that tosser of an excuse of a ref allowed City to get away with everything. Before their shot that hit the crossbar, Fred should have had a free kick as he was pushed to the ground. That happened to him several times. Setting a high bar for the "big games" certainly benefit teams like City that press hard and often makes small fouls just to put the opposition players off balance and stop a counter.

 

[led_scholes]

I wonder if the same people who criticized Herrera and now Fred, used to love Fellaini because he "is big and offers us a plan b", which bar 3-4 games in 5 years was never actually helpful/

Fred is perhaps our more consistent player the last one and a half years and the criticism towards him is IMO baffling. He is far from perfect, but like Herrera, understands football far better than other players (and fans), which compensates his lack of great technique.

 

[Litch]

I get it and understand people's negative comments about Fred and some are well deserved. That said, it's absolutely no different to the very same you could label at the team and manager...good, the bad and ugly. He can be very frustrating but people seem to want to minimise what he does right yet forensically focus on what he does wrong. What I do know, Fred plays we don't lose in general irrespective who else is on the pitch. Like many before him and will be after him, he's the type of player that whilst they have deficiencies, you respect and love to play with.

Always give 110% and if those whose ceiling is higher (inc Pogs) did this, we would be a very different team imo.....

 

[justsomebloke]

I may be wrong, but I really think the criticism of Fred's passing is a bit overblown. True, he makes some bad passes, but the statistics indicate his passing accuracy really isn't that bad. It's actually the best of all of our midfielders except Matic.

His possession loss frequency is a little bit worse than McT, Matic and DvdB, but not much. And it's WAY better than Pogba's, to say nothing of Bruno's.

All in all, if misplaced passes is what you're worried about, then Fred and Matic are the best options we have in CM. And if lost possession is what you're worried about, there's not that much of a difference between Fred and other options (and Pogba should be the player you really want to keep out of the lineup....). Of course, these things have to be weighed against other contributions, which is why Pogba and Bruno is in the lineup. But that goes for Fred too. The shortcomings pointed out in this tread are not major liabilities, compared to what other options bring. And against that you have to put his contributions to pressing, defence and energy. He's also a player who makes a not insignificant contribution in the final third.


Player....................Poss lost/90.......Pass acc.....Passes final 3rd/90 (big chances created)
Fred........................11.4......................87%............17.3 (5)
Matic.......................10.2.....................91%............19.2 (2)
McTominay............10.5......................85%............12.7 (3)
Pogba.....................16.8......................84%............21.4 (1)
Bruno.....................21.7......................77%.............29.7 (21)
van de Beek.............9.4.......................85%............15.6 (3)

And for comparison, some players from other teams:

Player....................Poss lost/90.......Pass acc.....Passes final 3rd/90 (big chances created)
Rodri.......................9.7.........................91%.................20.1 (4)
Partey.....................11.1.......................88%.................19.4 (1)
Xhaka.....................9.6..........................89%.................16.9 (2)
Kante......................12.0.......................87%..................14.8 (3)
Kovacic..................9.8..........................91%..................20.6 (5)
Højbjerg..................11.3.......................88%..................14.9 (5)
Wijnaldum..............7.5..........................91%..................14.6 (1)
Ndidi.......................9.8..........................87%...................7.5 (2)
Tielemans...............15.6........................83%..................18.9 (4)
Doucoure................10.2........................85%...................11.5 (2)

I'd say his performance is generally within the statistical parameters you find among top team regulars in more or less comparable roles.

 

[11101]

He is essential in games like that. His work rate and tracking is second to none and he is getting a lot better positionally too. He has to be the sitting midfielder now, whether we partner him with McTominay or we leave him alone with Pogba and Bruno ahead. Nobody else possesses the energy and sweeping up ability he does.

His passing was erratic but so was everybody else's, City press as hard as anybody and there will be errors.

A big and overlooked part of his passing problem is that he always offers for the ball, sometimes putting himself under unnecessary pressure when receives it.

 

[kettledrumhamster]

I may be wrong, but I really think the criticism of Fred's passing is a bit overblown. True, he makes some bad passes, but the statistics indicate his passing accuracy really isn't that bad. It's actually the best of all of our midfielders except Matic.

His possession loss frequency is a little bit worse than McT, Matic and DvdB, but not much. And it's WAY better than Pogba's, to say nothing of Bruno's.

All in all, if misplaced passes is what you're worried about, then Fred and Matic are the best options we have in CM. And if lost possession is what you're worried about, there's not that much of a difference between Fred and other options (and Pogba should be the player you really want to keep out of the lineup....). Of course, these things have to be weighed against other contributions, which is why Pogba and Bruno is in the lineup. But that goes for Fred too. The shortcomings pointed out in this tread are not major liabilities, compared to what other options bring. And against that you have to put his contributions to pressing, defence and energy. He's also a player who makes a not insignificant contribution in the final third.


Player....................Poss lost/90.......Pass acc.....Passes final 3rd/90 (big chances created)
Fred........................11.4......................87%............17.3 (5)
Matic.......................10.2.....................91%............19.2 (2)
McTominay............10.5......................85%............12.7 (3)
Pogba.....................16.8......................84%............21.4 (1)
Bruno.....................21.7......................77%.............29.7 (21)
van de Beek.............9.4.......................85%............15.6 (3)

And for comparison, some players from other teams:

Player....................Poss lost/90.......Pass acc.....Passes final 3rd/90 (big chances created)
Rodri.......................9.7.........................91%.................20.1 (4)
Partey.....................11.1.......................88%.................19.4 (1)
Xhaka.....................9.6..........................89%.................16.9 (2)
Kante......................12.0.......................87%..................14.8 (3)
Kovacic..................9.8..........................91%..................20.6 (5)
Højbjerg..................11.3.......................88%..................14.9 (5)
Wijnaldum..............7.5..........................91%..................14.6 (1)
Ndidi.......................9.8..........................87%...................7.5 (2)
Tielemans...............15.6........................83%..................18.9 (4)
Doucoure................10.2........................85%...................11.5 (2)

I'd say his performance is generally within the statistical parameters you find among top team regulars in more or less comparable roles.

You'll probably get it in the neck now by people who think their own biases are worth more than any stats, but that's really useful data, thanks. Particularly against Kante and Hojbjerg, who the same people seem to think are the pinnacle of players in Fred's role.

 

[Eternitiy]

His attitude is top notch. His composure and passing ability are not quite up to standard. Hope we upgrade him soon. Still, I love the guy. Would be a great squad player.

Hard to disagree with this. Useful player to have in the squad, but I don't think he should be first choice for us if we hope to make progress as a team.

 

[Litch]

He is essential in games like that. His work rate and tracking is second to none and he is getting a lot better positionally too. He has to be the sitting midfielder now, whether we partner him with McTominay or we leave him alone with Pogba and Bruno ahead. Nobody else possesses the energy and sweeping up ability he does.

His passing was erratic but so was everybody else's, City press as hard as anybody and there will be errors.

A big and overlooked part of his passing problem is that he always offers for the ball, sometimes putting himself under unnecessary pressure when receives it.

Spot on. I think as fans we look for certain things and they become truism. It's like Martial being lazy, Shaw being overweight etc. Sometimes he gives the ball away but who doesn't? He certainly doesn't give it away anymore than anyone else on the pitch, we just don't look at it the same imo. I know people talk about the need for a CDM but In our system, there is no player than can play on his own, cover the pitch, creativity pass from deep, shot from outside box and score, tackle, press etc. Prime Carrick couldn't do all that and look at the team around him.

I agree about him offering for the ball in positions that invite pressure and can get him into trouble at times but equally, he has significantly improved in that player that use to lose the ball consistently in our half. Clearly there are better players out there but if we learn nothing else, look at the contrasts between Evans and Harry. The Leicester shirts weighs much lighter than the Utd one as does Lingard in a West Ham shirt too. Many might want Rice but I'd argue equally they would want Fred or Scott in a West Ham one.....

 

[Dante]

Running and pashun

 

[11101]

Spot on. I think as fans we look for certain things and they become truism. It's like Martial being lazy, Shaw being overweight etc. Sometimes he gives the ball away but who doesn't? He certainly doesn't give it away anymore than anyone else on the pitch, we just don't look at it the same imo. I know people talk about the need for a CDM but In our system, there is no player than can play on his own, cover the pitch, creativity pass from deep, shot from outside box and score, tackle, press etc. Prime Carrick couldn't do all that and look at the team around him.

I agree about him offering for the ball in positions that invite pressure and can get him into trouble at times but equally, he has significantly improved in that player that use to lose the ball consistently in our half. Clearly there are better players out there but if we learn nothing else, look at the contrasts between Evans and Harry. The Leicester shirts weighs much lighter than the Utd one as does Lingard in a West Ham shirt too. Many might want Rice but I'd argue equally they would want Fred or Scott in a West Ham one.....

That's not all his fault either.

Others need to work harder to offer themselves, and as a team we need to pass the ball quicker before the pressure comes.

 

[red woppit]

Hard to disagree with this. Useful player to have in the squad, but I don't think he should be first choice for us if we hope to make progress as a team.

I like Fred, his tenacity, and work off the ball is sometimes ignored because of his inability to pick a pass consistantly, which is how many on this forum judge him. His passing is decent, but he does have the odd rush of blood where he'll give a very poor pass, and put the team into trouble. It was his hounding of the City player after 30 seconds or so, which gave Rashford the opportunity to attack City's defence, and there have been numerous occasions where he has won possession deep inside an opponents half, which has led to a goal.
I didn't see the match yesterday, but by all accounts, his passing was poor, but we are playing against, allegedly, the best team in the Prem, and I wonder how many times he disrupted City's flow, and gave them very little ball to work with, after all the best midfielder in the Prem (allegedly), DeBruyne, gave the ball away a lot during the game.
I think next season Fred will still be an integral part of the team, but the season after that, we may see players like Garner, and especially Mejbri, more involved in the week to week teams, and depending on whether Pogba leaves, or not, there may be other midfield players coming in.
I think there are more important positions to fill before we start talking about replacing the.likes of Fred now, not sure when his contract runs till, but summer 2022 may be the time to sell.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I'm not really bothered about his attacking game.

The major issue with Fred is that he's a bit shit when it comes to decision making and passing. He'll hold on to it for too long, get crowded and attempt a daft pass that is destined to fail instead of just booting it away, he can have all the time in the world on the ball and casually give it away.

Exactly - I'd say in every other department I care about for his role (work rate, stamina, tenacity, tackling, dynamism etc) he scores really high but he seems to be on the cusp of the brain fart pass every game or a basic mis control. I do feel this can be improved upon at the training ground though - it's just about sorting out the trampoline touch and then you've solved half the issue - it's a pure guess but I'd bet half his yellow cards come from mis control and then lunging in.

I see no reason we can't transition to Fred sitting alone if he can tidy up his basic game with McT in a Goretzka like role and Bruno in front.

 

[Litch]

You'll probably get it in the neck now by people who think their own biases are worth more than any stats, but that's really useful data, thanks. Particularly against Kante and Hojbjerg, who the same people seem to think are the pinnacle of players in Fred's role.

Agree as there are so many other factors. I might be labouring the point a little but if we did the same about Harry M, his figures would have looked great but playing for one of biggest teams in the world means it's hard to compare without that context. Pogs is one of the highest profiled players in the world, ceiling significantly higher than Fred's as is his value and ability. He's been here significantly longer including his time as a youth player so knows the club YET still he has been a disappointment and questions ask whether he's the right fit. Player for this clubs comes with a forensic view like no other by fans ex players and the media alike.

Maybe I'm always one for the underdog but I like Fred as he proven that in many ways he's a fighter. No doubt he's had a run of poor games but I'd argue this team doesn't win without him and the stats probably prove it irrespective of who else is on the pitch....

 

[acnumber9]

You'll probably get it in the neck now by people who think their own biases are worth more than any stats, but that's really useful data, thanks. Particularly against Kante and Hojbjerg, who the same people seem to think are the pinnacle of players in Fred's role.

Passing accuracy stats can’t show you the difficulty of the pass, whether it’s under hit or over hit making it difficult for the receiver to control, or whether it’s played behind the player and destroyed momentum. Passing accuracy is a fairly useless stat in all honesty. Chris Smalling had high passing accuracy.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I may be wrong, but I really think the criticism of Fred's passing is a bit overblown. True, he makes some bad passes, but the statistics indicate his passing accuracy really isn't that bad. It's actually the best of all of our midfielders except Matic.

His possession loss frequency is a little bit worse than McT, Matic and DvdB, but not much. And it's WAY better than Pogba's, to say nothing of Bruno's.

All in all, if misplaced passes is what you're worried about, then Fred and Matic are the best options we have in CM. And if lost possession is what you're worried about, there's not that much of a difference between Fred and other options (and Pogba should be the player you really want to keep out of the lineup....). Of course, these things have to be weighed against other contributions, which is why Pogba and Bruno is in the lineup. But that goes for Fred too. The shortcomings pointed out in this tread are not major liabilities, compared to what other options bring. And against that you have to put his contributions to pressing, defence and energy. He's also a player who makes a not insignificant contribution in the final third.


Player....................Poss lost/90.......Pass acc.....Passes final 3rd/90 (big chances created)
Fred........................11.4......................87%............17.3 (5)
Matic.......................10.2.....................91%............19.2 (2)
McTominay............10.5......................85%............12.7 (3)
Pogba.....................16.8......................84%............21.4 (1)
Bruno.....................21.7......................77%.............29.7 (21)
van de Beek.............9.4.......................85%............15.6 (3)

And for comparison, some players from other teams:

Player....................Poss lost/90.......Pass acc.....Passes final 3rd/90 (big chances created)
Rodri.......................9.7.........................91%.................20.1 (4)
Partey.....................11.1.......................88%.................19.4 (1)
Xhaka.....................9.6..........................89%.................16.9 (2)
Kante......................12.0.......................87%..................14.8 (3)
Kovacic..................9.8..........................91%..................20.6 (5)
Højbjerg..................11.3.......................88%..................14.9 (5)
Wijnaldum..............7.5..........................91%..................14.6 (1)
Ndidi.......................9.8..........................87%...................7.5 (2)
Tielemans...............15.6........................83%..................18.9 (4)
Doucoure................10.2........................85%...................11.5 (2)

I'd say his performance is generally within the statistical parameters you find among top team regulars in more or less comparable roles.

Issue here is if Kante is playing 2x the amount of passes Fred is and Fred has similar stats, that's a better reflection of Kante. The system will dictate a lot here over the above stats. I'd say Hojberg is in a similar system and has a similar role so that's a good comparison and Fred stacks up well there (I do rate Hojberg) and has pretty similar output from your stat selection.

Bruno's misplaced passes numbers are criminal and just emblematic of our setup, the washing machine tactic of rinse repeat passing is how I term it. Against teams who attack us and keep the ball it's a sensible approach to utilise out forwards but it's ineffective against lower block teams.

 

[Litch]

Passing accuracy stats can’t show you the difficulty of the pass, whether it’s under hit or over hit making it difficult for the receiver to control, or whether it’s played behind the player and destroyed momentum. Passing accuracy is a fairly useless stat in all honesty. Chris Smalling had high passing accuracy.

TBH you could apply the same thought for a lot of stats in football. The classic is assists.....