[AR87]

Wouldnt Fred be able to play a bit like Kante did for Pogba during the world cup for example? Not fully focused on pure defending but leaving the more attacking responsibilities to Pogba?

When typing this i think i have to mention that i am not part of the 'Pogba-out' group and i dont think he is lazy and cant defend. Obviously for this to work Pogba would need to do some defending too... however i think he is more than capable of doing that.

He could but in that setup France had a world class 10 in Griezmann and also had Matuidi play as an auxiliary LW to give Pogba freedom. I don't know if that's a setup that's realistic at club level.

 

[Rozay]

Agree. Personally i think that playing with a 10 is pretty outdated. Just like playing with wingers who will have "chalk at their boots" or a big strong number 9 who will stay in the box to tap it in.

Two players at 8 with someone who is also able to play football besides just destroy at 6 is the most used tactic now i think.

Fred behind Pogba and Bruno could work i think. Fred can run around and defend. Pogba can help defending a bit, make some of his runs towards the goal once every so often but also be able to still use his long range passing when he doesnt move forward. Bruno could move closer towards the striker when attacking but also move back a bit and do some defending when Manchester United is defending.

Although i am not 100% sure if Fred is the right player for that. Is he 'safe' enough to play in that role?

Yea, a 6 and a double 8 is the way forward for me, although I don’t think Fernandes is the man to partner Pogba. In fact, I think Pogba should be the 8 with the job description you gave Bruno. We should then bring in an 8 who can contribute defensively. I think in that set up, Fred can play as the DM. Any midfield with two defensively competent players doesn’t need a pure sitter in my opinion, as evidenced by the solidity we enjoyed with Fred and McTominay.

Essentially, I would like to see Pogba replace Pereira/Lingard or whichever imposter is claiming that role, and just get an improvement on McTominay who is better in possession and passing, but with the same offensive/defensive balance. That player, along with Fred, can provide enough defensive stability, but hopefully with increased passing and technical ability. Add this to the extra passing and technical quality that we get from Pogba replacing Andreas - and we have a top midfield with a good defensive base, and all 3 good on the ball. Pogba himself will play a bit deeper than Andreas by nature, so the midfield should be covered.

That would be my ideal 3.

 

[Ludens the Red]

You can see now why Guardiola wanted him. Everybody thought it was a joke at first but he would have got this level out of Fred straight away. Mourinho never trusted him and it took an injury for Pogba to get enough playing time to show it, but he's playing class right now. We haven't had a midfielder be able to steal the ball and break the defensive lines like that for a long time.

Yeah, i mean it took a while but you can see a player there. And I can hold my hands up and say I was massively wrong about him. But yeah that last bit you mentioned, we haven’t had a player like that for donkeys. Anderson seemed like it but then discovered donuts.

 

[ManRed]

The more confident he is getting the more he is driving forward. That was really good to watch. There were moments I expected a sideways pass but instead he turned and as CAF says 'attacked the space'. So refreshing too watch.

 

[Eleven-Eighteen]

He was immense last night. Great to see.

If only our entire team would up their respective games at the same time

 

[roonster09]

He is having very good season. He is confident and has good ability on the ball. He is probably the only player who can deal with the press.

 

[sherrinford]

Personally, I think this insistence on playing a 10 will hold us back completely.

Why?

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Why?

Because it's outdated and creates so many structural problems.

No top team in the world plays with a classic # 10.

Almost every team employs 3 in midfield.

We need to ditch this nonsense of using a #10. Especially more-so when you're using Lingard and Pereira there.

 

[mancan92]

Ive been very critical of him but yesterday he was sensational. Get him next to pogba

 

[Rozay]

Why?

As mentioned above, it is outdated and creates structural problems. What is likely to happen with a 10 is one of the following things (or all):

- You end up with 2 against 3 behind him, unless you do what Manchester United only do which is play a ‘defensive 10’.

- You starve the 10 of the ball anyway because you have your creative midfielder 30 yards from goal but your two workhorses you put in the team to cover for him don’t have the capability to consistently get him, or anyone else, the ball anyway. Which is another problem we have. The two DMs have most of the ball, and are not best equipped to use it.

- Your 10’s abilities are reduced anyway because he has nobody on a similar level to play with. Creativity needs to be shared in a midfield. I don’t believe you can just put two workhorses behind Bernardo Silva and think you can get the best Silva. You watch him play at City, he is best when able to play with the likes of David Silva and De Bruyne. Iniesta would not have been Iniesta if he could not bounce 5 yard passes, sometimes 1 yard passes off Xavi and Busquets. This is part of the issue I have with this notion that ‘Pogba can do the creating in the team’. I mean, he regularly plays key passes I agree, but I think creativity is a more collective responsibility. A creative player will always be best when in a team where they are symbiotic in possession, with technique and movement. You can’t just put a 10 in a team that has little technical ability and is static in terms of movement and expect magic.

With the right players, of course, you can do it. I mean, if Frenkie De Jong happens to be one of your DMs, or Rooney in his prime was your 10, then you will get enough quality on the ball from behind and enough defensive effort from ahead.

 

[sherrinford]

Because it's outdated and creates so many structural problems.

No top team in the world plays with a classic # 10.

Almost every team employs 3 in midfield.

We need to ditch this nonsense of using a #10. Especially more-so when you're using Lingard and Pereira there.

What is a ‘classic #10’ exactly? Certainly not what we’re using. The equivalent of a classic, free role off the striker in our system is Rashford.

It is ridiculous to call it outdated or to state that no top team plays with a #10. Systems involving no.10s/ advanced or attacking midfielders/ second, withdrawn or deep-lying forwards (4-4-1-1, 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2) are used constantly at the highest level - as frequently as systems using three deeper midfielders (4-3-3, 4-1-2-3).

Inherent structural problems can’t be determined without having an opponent to refer to. A 4-2-3-1 is as good a base formation as you can get for playing against a 4-3-3 from a defensive point of view as everyone is matched up in midfield and out wide, with a spare man at the back and a centre half being their only ‘free’ player too. That is as structurally sound as you can get.

 

[Ekeke]

Imagine the current version of Fred playing in a midfield with, a vaguely interested, Pogba.

If those are our 2 DMs thats worrying. Fred needs McTominay next to him. Pogba playing further forward than those 2? Now you're talking

 

[Eyepopper]

If those are our 2 DMs thats worrying. Fred needs McTominay next to him. Pogba playing further forward than those 2? Now you're talking

God no, I dont mean in a 2 man midfield.

I'm not a complete madman!

 

[sherrinford]

As mentioned above, it is outdated and creates structural problems. What is likely to happen with a 10 is one of the following things (or all):

- You end up with 2 against 3 behind him, unless you do what Manchester United only do which is play a ‘defensive 10’.

- You starve the 10 of the ball anyway because you have your creative midfielder 30 yards from goal but your two workhorses you put in the team to cover for him don’t have the capability to consistently get him, or anyone else, the ball anyway. Which is another problem we have. The two DMs have most of the ball, and are not best equipped to use it.

- Your 10’s abilities are reduced anyway because he has nobody on a similar level to play with. Creativity needs to be shared in a midfield. I don’t believe you can just put two workhorses behind Bernardo Silva and think you can get the best Silva. You watch him play at City, he is best when able to play with the likes of David Silva and De Bruyne. Iniesta would not have been Iniesta if he could not bounce 5 yard passes, sometimes 1 yard passes off Xavi and Busquets. This is part of the issue I have with this notion that ‘Pogba can do the creating in the team’. I mean, he regularly plays key passes I agree, but I think creativity is a more collective responsibility. A creative player will always be best when in a team where they are symbiotic in possession, with technique and movement. You can’t just put a 10 in a team that has little technical ability and is static in terms of movement and expect magic.

With the right players, of course, you can do it. I mean, if Frenkie De Jong happens to be one of your DMs, or Rooney in his prime was your 10, then you will get enough quality on the ball from behind and enough defensive effort from ahead.

Come on. I can’t recall the last time I watched a team just allow a 3 v 2 advantage in midfield. It is so basic - at the highest level teams always look to kill the numerical inferiority. Every week there are teams who set up with a support player to the centre forward, who might either join him in sitting off or pressing the central defenders, screening in front of a single holding player or a double pivot, or maintain a position marking and tracking a holding player while his striker splits the defenders, or any combination of these actions depending on how both sides are setup, what they are looking to achieve and how the individual players interpret and react to different situations.

This is not using a ‘defensive #10’ - it is merely tasking the player operating in the no.10 position with the natural defensive duties associated with that role. Players are deployed there every single match day but examples of players occupying that role who completely neglect all their usual defensive work is very rare. Sure, all players are different and some are more willing and able than others, but you hardly ever see a player being given a ‘free role’, exempt from defending as part of the unit.

You seem dead set on the idea that playing with a no.10 means playing with a lazy maverick. Why? As with any position, a players abilities and tendencies dictate how they interpret playing in that area of the pitch. Makelele and Pirlo both played as no.6s. Xavi and Essien both played as no.8s. The kind of players that have occupied a no.10 position vary just the same - Ozil, David Silva, Riquelme. Thomas Muller, Griezmann, Giuly. Ballack, Hamsik, Van De Beek. Vidal, Nainggolan, Paulinho.

Using two workhorses deep in midfield would create problems because of the imbalance caused by playing the two of them together - not due to using a player in advance of them. Obviously, having inadequate passers deeper affects the ability of the players higher up the pitch - and by extension the team - to create. Obviously, the impact made by a creative player will be blunted by a team devoid of movement and quality. These things have nothing to do with using a no.10 at all. Changing the shape to pull the no.10 deeper or replacing him with a deeper midfielder wouldn’t solve either of these issues. It may even compound them further as there would then potentially be no player in the link position looking to receive the ball between the lines. Busquets-Xavi-Iniesta is obviously seen as a 1-2 midfield setup (Busquets behind Xavi and Iniesta, 4-3-3 or 4-1-2-3), but that midfield was a prime example of a harmonious relationship between a no.6, a no.8 and a no.10. That side’s shape could have easily been called a 4-2-3-1 as Iniesta looked to occupy the space between the opposition defence and midfield.

 

[manc4red]

I like Fred and I the run of games has done him a world of difference

But there is a story floating around saying he waited for Allison after the game Sunday to ask for his shirt. I have mixed feelings of this, on one hand they are both Brazilian so ok cool but on the other hand, he asked for Allison’s Liverpool jersey... our most hated rivals. Utd players asking for Pool jerseys.... times have surely changed. Maybe us fans are too old school

 

[Gandalf]

I keep seeing comments about how Fred is improving and he is finally showing his quality but what exactly does he offer? He huffs and puffs a lot but his passing is still woeful and a return of 1 assist and no goals is proof that he is hopeless as an attacking asset. He is also clumsy in possession when in defence and is always a threat to lose possession in a dangerous position. I am just not seeing what everyone else is.

 

[VeevaVee]

Don't want to be annoyed at someone who's been our standout player recently, but for the love of God, stop with the constant punts at goal. So annoying in the first half.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Why does he lose all his footballing ability anytime he goes near the opposition box? Not just his bad shooting, but his touch and pass suddenly seem to let him down too.

It's like he becomes Space Jammed

 

[sherrinford]

I keep seeing comments about how Fred is improving and he is finally showing his quality but what exactly does he offer? He huffs and puffs a lot but his passing is still woeful and a return of 1 assist and no goals is proof that he is hopeless as an attacking asset. He is also clumsy in possession when in defence and is always a threat to lose possession in a dangerous position. I am just not seeing what everyone else is.

You could start by ignoring goals and assist. Fred plays deep in midfield - they are irrelevant. His passing is far from woeful and the likelihood of him losing the ball in dangerous areas has been minimised with the sharpness and confidence gained from playing consistently. Last night Fred was one of our two best players due to his very positive, cutting passes from deep - he regularly found an option to progress the ball forward and take Burnley’s midfield and forwards out of the game. He also has an excellent reaction to United losing the ball and seems indefatigable.

 

[kouroux]

Please, just stop shooting the ball.

 

[simplyared]

I keep seeing comments about how Fred is improving and he is finally showing his quality but what exactly does he offer? He huffs and puffs a lot but his passing is still woeful and a return of 1 assist and no goals is proof that he is hopeless as an attacking asset. He is also clumsy in possession when in defence and is always a threat to lose possession in a dangerous position. I am just not seeing what everyone else is.

You see it in exactly the same way as I do. I just cannot believe the way so many posters on this forum see a player in him. Because, for the life of me, I cetainly can't.

 

[acnumber9]

In the last couple of months he’s been a lot better than the very low bar that was set previously. He has had a couple of very good games too. He’s still not really good enough but not the complete disaster he was before. Those who love an I told you so just get carried away.

 

[Litch]

You just can't win some people over. All his best games have been against all the top teams including Liverpool and City and before that against PSG which tells you about his quality. Haters will hate and if it wasn't his shooting, it would be something else.....

 

[Litch]

I like Fred and I the run of games has done him a world of difference

But there is a story floating around saying he waited for Allison after the game Sunday to ask for his shirt. I have mixed feelings of this, on one hand they are both Brazilian so ok cool but on the other hand, he asked for Allison’s Liverpool jersey... our most hated rivals. Utd players asking for Pool jerseys.... times have surely changed. Maybe us fans are too old school

We are fans, footballers are employees. If it's your friend and country man, the shirt maybe more symbolic of that than the team it's from. My brother in law recently passed away. Massive Utd fan and his closet friends who weren't wore some of his old shirts to the funeral. Sometimes there's more to life than just football....

 

[TMDaines]

Pretty damning article on Fred on The Athletic:

Fred is, however, absolutely infuriating in the final third because he incessantly takes low-value shots. Of his 33 efforts this season, 22 have been shots with an xG of 0.03 or less and only eight have forced a save from the goalkeeper. There’s been a few blocked efforts but over half have missed the goal entirely, often by a huge margin.

[...]

And while Fred isn’t wasting glorious opportunities where he clearly should have scored, he’s conceding possession wastefully, failing to advance the ball into more promising locations for others to shoot from. Fred is also without an assist this season and while his xA (expected assists) of 1.8 suggests this is a slightly harsh reflection upon his passing, perhaps he would have created a goal had he concentrated upon playing the ball into team-mates rather than incessantly having potshots at goal.

In short: 33 shots, 22 of which were 3% or less to score, and 0 goals. Compounding that is 0 assists and only 1.8 xA, so nothing that unlucky. This lad is diabolical at home against weaker sides and is actually a liability.

I completely lost it with him in the stands at Burnley and is it any wonder why? He needs intense coaching or simply shouldn’t be on the pitch anytime we need a goal. His decision-making on the edge of the box is that bad that we would almost certainly be better off with any replacement player.

 

[TMDaines]

You could start by ignoring goals and assist. Fred plays deep in midfield - they are irrelevant. His passing is far from woeful and the likelihood of him losing the ball in dangerous areas has been minimised with the sharpness and confidence gained from playing consistently. Last night Fred was one of our two best players due to his very positive, cutting passes from deep - he regularly found an option to progress the ball forward and take Burnley’s midfield and forwards out of the game. He also has an excellent reaction to United losing the ball and seems indefatigable.

I’d accept a 0 goals and 0 assists version of Fred, but not one with his idiotic shot map. You can’t on one hand argue that he shouldn’t be judged on his attacking output, because he performs a more important role for us in deeper midfield, whilst on the other hand the player is an utter liability whenever he receives the ball on the edge of the box as he has the ambition of a prime Paul Scholes without any of the vision, technique and decision-making.

If Fred simply never shot for the rest of the season, he would be a much improved player.

 

[simplyared]

What amazes me more than ever is not that the player has become a regular in our line-up but the fact so many people on here actually rate him. I started a thread about the player getting playing time for us and that being a marker for where the club is at right now. I also stated the player performs at Championship level which I got crucified for by some posters. People on here actually believe he would get on the bench for City and Liverpool and they also believe he has been our best player this season. Some other caf member started a thread where he thought we who were against him at the beginning owed the player an apology. Paul Scholes picked out Fred after the Burnley game with these words "again he's supposed to be your creative midfielder, no influence on the game whatsoever" That's exactly what I see in every game he plays = zero influence!
Lets be honest even at the level we are right now he is not good enough to hold a place in our midfield. A terrible signing!

 

[Litch]

What amazes me more than ever is not that the player has become a regular in our line-up but the fact so many people on here actually rate him. I started a thread about the player getting playing time for us and that being a marker for where the club is at right now. I also stated the player performs at Championship level which I got crucified for by some posters. People on here actually believe he would get on the bench for City and Liverpool and they also believe he has been our best player this season. Some other caf member started a thread where he thought we who were against him at the beginning owed the player an apology. Paul Scholes picked out Fred after the Burnley game with these words "again he's supposed to be your creative midfielder, no influence on the game whatsoever" That's exactly what I see in every game he plays = zero influence!
Lets be honest even at the level we are right now he is not good enough to hold a place in our midfield. A terrible signing!

Pure stupidity

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

I thought he played well, but why did he take that free kick? That was Mata territory all day long. Looked like it was instruction from the bench though. Mata looked at the bench and then walked away. Fred must be banging them top bins every day in training to be given that at such a crucial moment.

 

[roonster09]

That's a huge praise.

 

[TMDaines]

It doesn’t matter what does elsewhere if he continue to be so fecking dross on the edge of the opposition box. He offers nothing and is too liable to offer a shit shot or be dispossessed.

Will be back on the bench again soon once Pogba is back. Not good enough for a side with aspirations of silverware.

 

[Rolaholic]

Easily our MOTM today

Given all the uncertainty and shit around him, he's honestly been having a really good season. He'd be me my first choice holding/DM with everyone healthy

 

[Adam-Utd]

another boss performance. It’s fair to say he’s up there with the Liverpool and city midfields in terms on intensity.

If we can just improve his killer passes and shots he will be very close to world class.

can’t complain with his game today though, won the ball so many times then started counters for us. Danced away from de Bruyne and gundogan a few times, lovely stuff.

 

[simplyared]

Easily our MOTM today

Given all the uncertainty and shit around him, he's honestly been having a really good season. He'd be me my first choice holding/DM with everyone healthy

Assists all season: 0
Goals since he joined us: 0
Making him motm today is a fecking joke!

 

[Ballache]

It doesn’t matter what does elsewhere if he continue to be so fecking dross on the edge of the opposition box. He offers nothing and is too liable to offer a shit shot or be dispossessed.

Will be back on the bench again soon once Pogba is back. Not good enough for a side with aspirations of silverware.

No he won't, Pogba and Fred play. He's been excellent for a while now and has our best player again tonight.
Stay away from free kicks though.

 

[cyberman]

It doesn’t matter what does elsewhere if he continue to be so fecking dross on the edge of the opposition box. He offers nothing and is too liable to offer a shit shot or be dispossessed.

Will be back on the bench again soon once Pogba is back. Not good enough for a side with aspirations of silverware.

Why is this place so obsessed with attacking play? No other club judges their DMs on what they do in the oppositions box but we do it to every DM we have.
Rodri, Fabinho, Kante are no better and if they are its not by much but we have a DM playing out of his skin yet is getting back handed compliments everywhere i look.
His form is making Matic look phenomenal, Scott looks like a star beside him.
Its not a coincidence

 

[Rolaholic]

Assists all season: 0
Goals since he joined us: 0
Making him motm today is a fecking joke!

He' hasn't been played in a progressive role a single time all season though so it's a bit harsh judging him off of more attacking stats. He's almost exclusively been relied upon for providing cover for the backline and has done a real decent job at that

 

[LJJT]

Thought he was class again tonight. Really good on the ball, has a swagger about him. Buzzes around and string challenger. I think he’s a quality midfielder now and an official first teamer even when everyone’s back

 

[Based Adnan]

Sloppy and dawdles on the ball at times but that's to be expected because he never shys away and will always provide an option even in the most difficult situations. Looks a decent player and a good option to have around.

 

[MAME DIOUF 32]

Ridiculous work rate again.