@Pagh Wraith has your opinion changed? Are Chelsea still a better side than we are?
Frank Lampard's Sack Watch / Sacked
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Arteta and Lampard were both the second coming a few months ago. Now radio silence...
But there's no guarantee that there'll be a 'linear progression'. Maybe next season gets worse. Maybe City/Liverpool don't decline. Maybe Chelsea won't overtake them.
Chelsea should be expected to compete for trophies this season.
Should we be then? We’ve spent the same under Ole as Chelsea have under Lampard haven't we?
Thats a stupid question don’t you think? United are in a titlerace whilst Chelsea are not. That’s the difference. Same (or nearly) spending from both Ole and Frankie. This is not good enough and that’s why he’ll probably gets the sack in the end.
I doubt he would be doing so well had he managed a different club besides Rangers and Celtic, the two biggest and richest teams in the league. I think Lampard is actually doing ok with Chelsea(not at the moment mind)but he is still learning and finished 4th last season in a much tougher league.
I don't think Bruce is a better manager than him either.
Maybe he bit of more than he could chew with this Chelsea job. Should have proven himself with Derby for another season and then getting some PL bottom club job. It'd been smoother for him than putting his legacy in danger with these results. But Chelsea fans and the board are willing to give him more time because he is a legend. Imagine who else in current situation. There'd be serious questions concerning their abilities.
Not really. I think saying we’re in a title race 16 games into the season is more stupid personally. We could have had this exact same conversation 2 weeks ago saying Chelsea were in a title race ffs. We’re literally 2 defeats away from this forum going into meltdown again calling for Ole to be sacked.
What's your point?
Yes?
If we werent competing in this year of all years, Ole would be gone by now
I genuinely don’t know. I seem to be sticking up for Lampard despite not particularly wanting to
I guess my point is I wouldn’t sack him and people expecting them to challenge for the title just because of what they spent are being unfair.Chelsea have now managed to claim 4 out of the last 18 points available. That’s more than two defeats surely. And yes, that is probably enough for any of them to get sacked.
But I still don’t get what you want to prove with this? Chelsea’s and Uniteds season are going in two totally different directions - one team is going on a title race and the other are not.
I genuinely don’t know. I seem to be sticking up for Lampard despite not particularly wanting to
That's fine. I was in the same camp however from what I saw today I'm not convinced anymore due to the following;
1) I can't see any style of play developing and it should be by now.
2) Tactically couldn't see what he set his team out to do today. There seemed no plan or tactical method.
3) No plan B. All his changes were like for like and nothing ever changed despite being 3 goals down at home.
I think even when Ole has had tough patches I've been at least able to tick some of those boxes above in game. Sometimes his plans don't work but he does adapt how we play based on the opposition and is happy to make adjustments. Not sure I'm seeing any flexibility with Frank and I'd say that's a worry when the results don't come. If he's trying things but the system takes time or he simply hasn't moulded the squad yet then you have to be patient but my thoughts at the moment are he still doesn't know his best team let alone what system to use them in.
For me that's a concern.
We don't really have a nice run of fixtures at any point for the rest of the season.
We have Fulham, Leicester, Burnley, Wolves and Spurs in the next 5 games. Ideally need to go 3 wins 2 draws to arrest the slide.
We have Fulham, Leicester, Burnley, Wolves and Spurs in the next 5 games. Ideally need to go 3 wins 2 draws to arrest the slide.
Do you believe he would be doing the same as Gerrard?
Well, there's always April (WBA, CRP, BRI, WHU, FUL).
How worried is the Chelsea fanbase? I've just seen a few of their games, but to me they look oddly lacking in ability to impose themselves offensively. Good things happen occasionally, but, how can I put this, there's no sense that they're able to turn it on when they need to, or find a way to get it done when they're presented with unusual difficulty. It's like when it happens it happens, and when it doesn't it just doesn't, if that makes sense. Also, lots of really good players, but perhaps not anyone really top shelf, like de Bruyne or Mane or Son or Fernandes? Not enough stability in the first XI, a bit too much of rotation? And it must be a worry that they've not beaten anyone placed higher than West Ham.
Not quite I think, if it's net spend we're talking about. Remember that we've also sold players for more than 100 m.
Also, entirely different job. Ole had a major reconstruction job to do, with fairly few of the key pieces already in place and loads of pieces that needed jettisoning. Chelsea was already a highly competitive team this summer. In their case, it was more a question of building on the foundation that was already there and improving it further.
But in any case of course, just looking at the tab and expecting immediate commensurate results is rarely a smart way to look at it. It's not surprising that it takes time to integrate as many as six new players of starting XI quality. Then again, you could ask if it'd been smarter to buy fewer but better players. Or just plain fewer.
That's kind of how it is at the minute.
Upcoming prem fixtures aren't the easiest but I think it'd be too soon to sack him. They're 3 points off a top 4 spot (albeit with an extra game played), still in the CL and could easily go on a run. Questions have to be asked though, as on paper that's a very good squad he has (in my opinion anyway).
I still can't understand why he chose this suicidal pressing strategy against city. Everybody from attack to midfield was pressing high leaving huge gaps in the middle and city sometimes took out 5 players out of the game with a single pass. I feel like like only Liverpool and maybe Leeds under bielsa could go toe to toe with city. Lampard got it massively wrong here.
Also Giroud could have impacted the game a lot more than Werner. Chelsea could have bypassed City's press with long balls to him. Instead they work the ball to Pulisic and ask him to take on multiple defenders or pass it to Ziyech to cross to no one in particular. And for a manager under pressure, Lampard should have picked the best players available, instead of being stubborn. There is an article in the Athletic about the Chelsea board having doubts about him immediately following the game. Will be interesting to see if they go for Tuchel or someone like that.
Also Giroud could have impacted the game a lot more than Werner. Chelsea could have bypassed City's press with long balls to him. Instead they work the ball to Pulisic and ask him to take on multiple defenders or pass it to Ziyech to cross to no one in particular. And for a manager under pressure, Lampard should have picked the best players available, instead of being stubborn. There is an article in the Athletic about the Chelsea board having doubts about him immediately following the game. Will be interesting to see if they go for Tuchel or someone like that.
I'm using a dark mode style and was wondering if you are insane until I realized
Thankfully I'm not insane.... But a look around the forum.....
I remember in the summer there was a lot of discussion and comparison between Utd and Chelsea due to the similarities in situation of both clubs.
Both clubs ended up on virtually the same points. Both clubs with young inexperienced managers who were legends as players. As both had finished on the same points, all eyes were on who would get the most backing in the transfer market and close the gap on Liverpool and Chelsea.
With regards to transfer recruitment, Chelsea blew us away with spending by bringing in 6/7 players who would go straight into their starting lineup. The talk amongst pundits was about them challenging for a title with Liverpool and City.
On the other hand, Utd had a transfer window which was effectively non-existent. We’ve brought in 3 players who’ve not had any major significant impact on the team setup. Cavani is probably the biggest impact and even he’s only had a handful of games.
This is where I think Lampard gets off lightly with a lot of the media and pundits because if the roles were reversed I can guarantee Ole would have been crucified by every pundit by now. Having had so much backing, Lampard arguably has the team playing worse than it did last season. That’s unacceptable with that level of investment. Unless he gets top 4 which would have been a minimum requirement after the summer, he has no option but to be sacked. I just don’t see him lasting to the end of the season though because there is no sign in the football Chelsea are playing that shows he can turn it around. Even arsenal wiped the floor clean with them and turned their season around on the back of that result. And they were the leagues laughing stock.
Both clubs ended up on virtually the same points. Both clubs with young inexperienced managers who were legends as players. As both had finished on the same points, all eyes were on who would get the most backing in the transfer market and close the gap on Liverpool and Chelsea.
With regards to transfer recruitment, Chelsea blew us away with spending by bringing in 6/7 players who would go straight into their starting lineup. The talk amongst pundits was about them challenging for a title with Liverpool and City.
On the other hand, Utd had a transfer window which was effectively non-existent. We’ve brought in 3 players who’ve not had any major significant impact on the team setup. Cavani is probably the biggest impact and even he’s only had a handful of games.
This is where I think Lampard gets off lightly with a lot of the media and pundits because if the roles were reversed I can guarantee Ole would have been crucified by every pundit by now. Having had so much backing, Lampard arguably has the team playing worse than it did last season. That’s unacceptable with that level of investment. Unless he gets top 4 which would have been a minimum requirement after the summer, he has no option but to be sacked. I just don’t see him lasting to the end of the season though because there is no sign in the football Chelsea are playing that shows he can turn it around. Even arsenal wiped the floor clean with them and turned their season around on the back of that result. And they were the leagues laughing stock.
Hard to say.
Would Gerard do better than a 4th place finish in the league last season with Chelsea or where Chelsea currently are?I think it’s a bit unfair to measure them against two very different leagues is my point.
Where I say he would do a better job was regarding the improvement off individual players, don't see any sort of improvement regarding certain Chelsea players since Lampard is there. But I might be wrong and at his next club he might prove me I was wrong, because his Chelsea stay doesn't look long to me. Time will tell regarding Gerrard, but if he returns to England I expect him to be a top coach.
I’ve never been a fan of Lampard as a manager but these last few weeks are unsustainable. It’s time for him to go.
Lampard is clueless and should be sacked ASAP but I hope they keep him forever
I hate the DJ beater but what he's done with Rangers is fantastic and he'd be better than Lampard with a big side IMO
Attempting to wum him too
A lot of people didn’t think Ole was better manager than Lampard despite what he has done with Molde is far more impressive than what Lampard and Gerrard have done so far, but people only judge him based on Cardiff and his PL season and ignoring his Molde’s career. Being honest myself, I don’t see the difference between Gerrard and Lampard in what they have done so far, they are on equal term. Gerrard would be slightly better than Lampard once he lift that Scottish league trophy end of the season.
To all Chelsea supporters here, in football, things change quickly. You might find your team in a much better position after this month.
I think there are some substantial problems at Chelsea but the club have also been a bit unlucky recently with results not reflecting the match. They were on top against both Wolves and Villa, not dominating but definitely the better side with higher quality chances, and got one point total from those matches. If they get six points like United just did (and I wouldn't say that United's actual performances against those two were dramatically better, although perhaps a little better) then nobody is having this conversation, even with disappointing losses to two rivals in Arsenal and City.
What I would be worried about is the possibility of things starting to snowball. There is so much luck in football that almost every club is going to go through spells in which you experience a few bad results in a row at times. One of the underrated qualities in a manager, IMO, is how they react to those runs. Because it can become possible to either lose the faith of the players and/or to make desperate tactical/selection changes that just make your problems worse. That's how you go from being a good side playing decently but getting unluckily bad results to being a messed up side playing poorly and getting deservedly bad results. What I saw today was a messed up side playing poorly and getting a deserved spanking. That doesn't mean it will continue but I think its worth worrying about. Lampard had a superior mentality as a player but as a manager I don't think he has ever been tested like he is currently.
What I would be worried about is the possibility of things starting to snowball. There is so much luck in football that almost every club is going to go through spells in which you experience a few bad results in a row at times. One of the underrated qualities in a manager, IMO, is how they react to those runs. Because it can become possible to either lose the faith of the players and/or to make desperate tactical/selection changes that just make your problems worse. That's how you go from being a good side playing decently but getting unluckily bad results to being a messed up side playing poorly and getting deservedly bad results. What I saw today was a messed up side playing poorly and getting a deserved spanking. That doesn't mean it will continue but I think its worth worrying about. Lampard had a superior mentality as a player but as a manager I don't think he has ever been tested like he is currently.
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From day dot i think majority of us were blinded by sentiment re. Frank being manager and gave him a free pass whatever he did. Especially last season with the ban, which was acceptable.
But to me he just looks bereft of ideas. Standing there with arms folded for 90mins just tells me he isnt sure what to do... it sometimes feels like a case of "Heres the 11, heres where you are playing, crack on; lets hope something happens." and he has favourites, which is not good really. It's like surely he has watched Werner, & Havertz in Germany and worked out their best positions from that, or more pointedly, worked out what style of play really accomodates them. I mention those 2 because according to the Athletic our board are not happy with how they are performing under Frank. He sometimes seems to shoehorn them into the team where there is a gap, in order so Abraham can play, or Mount.
A plan B seems missing. We rarely change formation, and i think the only real change has made tactically is throwing another striker on. But thats not a plan B IMO... Much as i hate to say it the job is too big for him, but i wish for him to stay and learn to get out of this rut. But we are a club with an owner who wont let you learn on the job, and he has a lot to learn. Lampard needs to drop down the ladder, cut his teeth for a few years and them make his way back up. Because at Derby he only had about 50 games.
My other gripe is he has no one on the touchline with experience of this kinda scenario to lean on and get ideas from of what to do. Jody Morris is our current assistant, he needs demoting and a wise head brought in. We have the least experienced coaching team in the league i'd bet, it baffles feck out of me how anyone can think that isnt an issue
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This.
From what I can tell, he seems to be a decent manager and has a well coached team that can't get results for the life of them. It happens. Even then they are 7pts from the top.
It would be foolish to sack Lampard now.
Comparing his points per game to other Chelsea managers is silly. He's in the middle of a rebuild amongst a very competitive/even league and PPG is lower for top sides this season as a result.
Give him time.
Comparing his points per game to other Chelsea managers is silly. He's in the middle of a rebuild amongst a very competitive/even league and PPG is lower for top sides this season as a result.
Give him time.
But we are also 4pts from 14th placed Crystal Palace.
Hope he stays in the job, but the smugness from Chelsea fans at around October was amazing. He's average as hell as a manager, it's also bizarre that he continues to bench CHO who looks extremely dangerous whenever he comes on the pitch.
He chose to play defensive, safe, played for a draw and 5 defenders against us this season but the opposite against city yesterday. Oh Frank.
He’s in an Arteta like rut at the moment. Needs to start making some ballsy decisions and tighten up his tactical work as at the moment it is lazy management and team selections.
Wouldn’t write him off just yet but he needs to realise his neck is on the line and he can’t just throw names on a team sheet and expect it to work - needs to think things through.
Playing unfit Ziyech in front of a defensive right back who will not overlap - tactical disaster - inverted winger always needs an attacking right back behind them. If James is out - play CHO instead.
Werner as a CF - hell no.
Wouldn’t write him off just yet but he needs to realise his neck is on the line and he can’t just throw names on a team sheet and expect it to work - needs to think things through.
Playing unfit Ziyech in front of a defensive right back who will not overlap - tactical disaster - inverted winger always needs an attacking right back behind them. If James is out - play CHO instead.
Werner as a CF - hell no.
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