Frank Lampard's Sack Watch / Sacked

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WeePat said:
I mean, I see people on twitter say this a lot, but the truth is, we don't know that. No-one had bad word to say about Jody during the good periods, but suddenly now we know exactly what his day to day duties are and how effectively he carries them out?. It's like that time when people became obsessed with Hilario being the goalkeeping coach because Kepa was performing terribly.
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Lampard is an inexperienced manager in all honesty, we can agree on that. He needs someone more experienced with him. No one on our first team bench has senior coaching experience bar Hilario and Jones, but they arent "matchday" coaches to an extent. Barry coach at Wigan, Edwards the U18's, Morris the U23's.

Lampard's backroom team has always been questioned why it lacks experience. From day dot
Who i would put with him i dont know, but i would shuffle it about a bit. And as you say, the opinion of Morris is quite a widely held one on various social media. Granted he may be a decent coach, but i dont think he is an assistant manager.
 
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The thing that annoys me most about Lampard is that everyone, and I don’t just mean Chelsea fans, can see we would suit 4231 far better than 433.

Werner at striker.
Pulisic, Havertz and Ziyech.
Kante and Kovacic.

This puts Werner at striker which Lampard point blank refuses to do, it protects the back 4 whilst freeing up Havertz to be more creative. CHO is the automatic starter if either Ziyech or Pulisic are out.

It’s really an easy solution with players perfect for the formation. The only person who cannot see this is the one paid a fortune to do so.
 
ZolaWasMagic said:
Lampard is an inexperienced manager in all honesty, we can agree on that. He needs someone more experienced with him. No one on our first team bench has senior coaching experience. Barry coach at Wigan, Edwards the U18's, Morris the U23's.

Lampard's backroom team has always been questioned why it lacks experience. From day dot
Who i would put with him i dont know, but i would shuffle it about a bit. And as you say, the opinion of Morris is quite a widely held one.
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No issues with wanting to add experience, but you said Morris adds feck all to coaching set up which is, with all due respect, completely made up.
 
ZolaWasMagic said:
You cannot tell me Lampard wouldnt be better off with a more senior experienced asst.. Its quite a widely held opinion of Jody Morris tbh. Only have to visit social media or various forums of ours. He is not an assistant manager IMO
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He's known Morris since they were teenagers and there's a huge deal of trust there. He could've brought in whoever he wanted and he picked Morris and Edwards, two young coaches who spent years getting the youth sides to play very, very well.

Morris' time in charge of the youth teams and how they played is enough for me to rate his coaching. I don't really give a shit what a load of Twitter users thinks of him, they just want a scapegoat and are as clueless as you or me with regards to what goes on in a Chelsea training session.

Would he be better off with a more experienced coach who he does not know, trust or like? I don't know but he made that call and he's not dumb enough to just give his mate that job.
 
WeePat said:
No issues with wanting to add experience, but you said Morris adds feck all to coaching set up which is, with all due respect, completely made up.
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On the touchline was more my point, albeit worded horridly. Hes just not vocal enough. You watch most the other assistants in our league on a matchday, and compare. He obviously has some coaching nous given his U23 record even though its not a "high" standard of football, but id like to see a more experienced man as a sounding board for Frank, and to offer advice.

Its a no brainer.
 
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duffer said:
He's known Morris since they were teenagers and there's a huge deal of trust there. He could've brought in whoever he wanted and he picked Morris and Edwards, two young coaches who spent years getting the youth sides to play very, very well.

Morris' time in charge of the youth teams and how they played is enough for me to rate his coaching. I don't really give a shit what a load of Twitter users thinks of him, they just want a scapegoat and are as clueless as you or me with regards to what goes on in a Chelsea training session.

Would he be better off with a more experienced coach who he does not know, trust or like? I don't know but he made that call and he's not dumb enough to just give his mate that job.
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fair points, even though JT is also hugely inexperienced, he'd add so much more as assistant for example. And thats not in doubt. The sort of energy and motivation JT would give on the touchline is exactly what would help when things aren't going well during a match. Sometimes the assistant actually does the instructions and orders during a game. Jody may very well be good on the training field, thats a fair point to make, but i simply dont think he is the right man for assistant manager
 
ZolaWasMagic said:
fair points, even though JT is also hugely inexperienced, he'd add so much more as assistant for example. And thats not in doubt. The sort of energy and motivation JT would give on the touchline is exactly what would help when things aren't going well during a match. Jody may very well be good on the training field, thats a fair point to make, but i simply dont think he is the right man for assistant manager
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I think you overestimate the impact an assistant manger can have by shouting from the touchline.

If anything we should get Marina down there quietly strolling up and down the touchline with a notepad in hand, that would scare the feck out of the players far more than JT shouting like Vinny Jones.
 
MayosNoun said:
The thing that annoys me most about Lampard is that everyone, and I don’t just mean Chelsea fans, can see we would suit 4231 far better than 433.

Werner at striker.
Pulisic, Havertz and Ziyech.
Kante and Kovacic.

This puts Werner at striker which Lampard point blank refuses to do, it protects the back 4 whilst freeing up Havertz to be more creative. CHO is the automatic starter if either Ziyech or Pulisic are out.

It’s really an easy solution with players perfect for the formation. The only person who cannot see this is the one paid a fortune to do so.
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Totally wrong. Kante and Kovacic fundamentally do not work as a pairing. Neither is great at progressing the ball outside of dribbling it, so you're left with massive spaces in the centre. This also benches Mount, who has been invaluable on set pieces this year.

We improved dramatically when we switched from 4-2-3-1 to 4-3-3 earlier this year. What Lampard needs to do is stop with stupid nonsense like playing Kante on 48 hours' rest out of position as an 8 and playing Werner on the wing against deep-lying defenses where he'll have to get involved in build up play.

If we wind up getting Rice, that changes things potentially - the fundamental issue with the squad is there's no one to partner Kante in a midfield pair.
 
ZolaWasMagic said:
fair points, even though JT is also hugely inexperienced, he'd add so much more as assistant for example. And thats not in doubt. The sort of energy and motivation JT would give on the touchline is exactly what would help when things aren't going well during a match. Sometimes the assistant actually does the instructions and orders during a game. Jody may very well be good on the training field, thats a fair point to make, but i simply dont think he is the right man for assistant manager
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Ridiculous. What do you think an assistant manager is for? Who is the shoutiest assistant manager in the Premier League and what is the evidence that shouting actually helps? If it did Sheffield United would have far more than 2 points so far.
 
Oranges038 said:
I always thought he did, maybe he pinched the leg or pulled a hair. Christ, he was a rotten little cnut on the pitch.
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I absolutely loved him. There's something about that kind of player - one who can shithouse with the best of them as well as being an actual good player.
 
WeePat said:
I absolutely loved him. There's something about that kind of player - one who can shithouse with the best of them as well as being an actual good player.
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As an opposing fan, I just plain disliked him. He was good for Chelsea, your right he was an absolute shithouse. Sort of player only a fan could really like I suppose.
 
UweBein said:
What?
Last season was pretty good.
But this season, you could have had Chris Hughton managing Chelsea and he would not have done worse point-wise.
The actual points total is quite bad.

My biggest problem with him is that, from my perspective, he is not adjusting sufficiently to our opponents. It seems to me that he is basing his team selection on names and perceived potential - but it is clear that he has a bias towards certain players.
(He may still be clinging to the idea of playing his own brand of football, but he should move on from that idea quickly.)
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I mean he is roughly in the same position as everyone else is, it is a strange season. I don't think they look cohesive this season but he might learn a lesson from it. As i said, if he can be ruthless with team selection and give a good team a proper run of games they could rebound from here and easily be in the title race.
 
Oranges038 said:
As an opposing fan, I just plain disliked him. He was good for Chelsea, your right he was an absolute shithouse. Sort of player only a fan could really like I suppose.
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Just after wise’s contract at Chelsea was up in summer 2001 I used to go to a gym in Bushey, north London.
Dennis wise used to use the same gym.
I remember being on the treadmill and he jumped on the one next to me and he ran for 45 minutes non stop at the maximum speed think it was 15kmph or something like that.
Jumped off and wasn’t even breathing particularly heavily.
that was an education in how fit these guys are.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
Ridiculous. What do you think an assistant manager is for? Who is the shoutiest assistant manager in the Premier League and what is the evidence that shouting actually helps? If it did Sheffield United would have far more than 2 points so far.
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an assistant manager is to be used as a sounding board for the manager, to offer advice and also help during games. They arent there just to do training and look pretty on matchday. Coaches tend to do most of the training.

Its not just the shouting/feedback, its the motivation, barking the orders, telling players where they are going wrong and stuff. Its not always just down to the manager. I didnt say changing Jody will get us more pts so your Sheff Utd example is just baffling, but Lampard does need someone more experienced alongside him. That simply is not a debate. An inexperienced manager, which Lampard still is, to be fair, needs someone to bounce off and get advice from. That comes from an experienced head. I would wager a bet we have the least experienced backroom team in the league. And despite being just as inexperienced there is no way, at all, that Jody Morris is more vocal on that touchline or passionate than JT would be. Not even close. Keep him for his work on the training pitch fair enough, but he is not an assistant manager, IMO

An experienced and vocal assistant on a matchday is a massive, massive help. A lot more than you realise it seems.


From a professional coach on an assistants role
" The assistant will be a sounding board for the manager and a cheerleader and counsel. It is often a good role for a wise old head as a result. Typically, the assistant is charged with watching the opponents in play and reporting on their changes and strengths and weaknesses as the game develops. And offering feedback as the game plays out on where tactics can be improved or altered, or where things are going wrong. A good assistant manager performs the same duties as a manager on matchday to an extent, and can often be seen on the touchline giving orders and guiding the team during play"
 
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ZolaWasMagic said:
an assistant manager is to be used as a sounding board for the manager, to offer advice and also help during games. They arent there just to do training and look pretty on matchday. Coaches tend to do most of the training.

Its not just the shouting/feedback, its the motivation, barking the orders, telling players where they are going wrong and stuff. Its not always just down to the manager. I didnt say changing Jody will get us more pts so your Sheff Utd example is just baffling, but Lampard does need someone more experienced alongside him. That simply is not a debate. An inexperienced manager, which Lampard still is, to be fair, needs someone to bounce off and get advice from. That comes from an experienced head. I would wager a bet we have the least experienced backroom team in the league. And despite being just as inexperienced there is no way, at all, that Jody Morris is more vocal on that touchline or passionate than JT would be. Not even close. Keep him for his work on the training pitch fair enough, but he is not an assistant manager, IMO

An experienced and vocal assistant on a matchday is a massive, massive help. A lot more than you realise it seems.
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Of course it's a debate. You have provided no evidence that any of the tripe you're spouting has any substance whatsoever. Who are the most vocal assistants? Are they all at Liverpool and Man City? If not, where is the data suggesting that increased assistant manager volume correlates with improved performance? Oh right, it doesn't exist because this is utter nonsense.

This is such a bizarre thread to run with. Absolutely embarrassing conduct from our fanbase that this is a thing now apparently.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
Of course it's a debate. You have provided no evidence that any of the tripe you're spouting has any substance whatsoever. Who are the most vocal assistants? Are they all at Liverpool and Man City? If not, where is the data suggesting that increased assistant manager volume correlates with improved performance? Oh right, it doesn't exist because this is utter nonsense.

This is such a bizarre thread to run with. Absolutely embarrassing conduct from our fanbase that this is a thing now apparently.
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a more experienced assistant would help the inexperienced Lampard. I just think it would, someone to turn to when things arent working during 90mins. Someone with a lot of knowledge who has experienced most highs and lows in football. Most assistants in the league help coach the team during the 90mins, by adding input from the touchline, or in the managers ear. It definitely can help, but i never see Morris doing that. Which is why i would personally keep him as a coach on the training field, but bring in a wiser head as assistant. Steve Clarke was brilliant at both input and directing the team under Mourinho, despite himself not having much managerial history at the time. ten Cate did it a lot while here. You see it all over the league. The assistant is there praising a player, or talking to a player to up his game. Or barking orders. It does happen, at almost all EPL clubs.

it'd certainly help Lampard. OGS did the same with Phelan, brought him back, use his knowledge on matchday during the 90mins on the touchline

If we're in a game and struggling to break someone down, or looking sloppy and Lampard is scratching his head on how to change it, being able to turn to a guy with X amount of yrs knowledge and say "what can we do?" and have his feedback to both you, and the players on the field, along with motivation and being vocal to the players, is priceless and can, absolutely, improve the performance.

I vividly remember quite a few times at the Bridge guys sat near me all going on about how they find it curious that Lamps' never really asks Morris for his input or advice. One stays sat in dugout, one stays on touchline. Not how it should work
 
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Blood Mage said:
Between him, Ole and Arteta I still think he's the best manager of the three, but his signings have been total flops. The fact that they're relying heavily on Abraham and Giroud for goals is very concerning.
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At this moment in time, Lampard is clearly bottom of the three.
Arteta already has a major trophy to his name.
Ole, is now finding himself smack bang in a title race.
Lampard has achieved nothing of any real note.
 
Sylar said:
If Lampard wants more penalties he should get his team to attack more :)
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They do attack quite a lot.
They're as good as any team in getting the ball into the final third. I'd bet they're in the top three teams in terms of the amount of time they spend in the final third of the pitch.
It's when they get there, which is their big problem - sideways pass, sideways pass, sideways pass, pass back, pass forward, sideways pass, sideways pass, sideways.....goes on and on till opposing defender falls asleep, allowing room for a Chelsea player to cross the ball into the box.

Just where did this bizarre obsession with crosses into the box come from?
 
ZolaWasMagic said:
a more experienced assistant would help the inexperienced Lampard. I just think it would, someone to turn to when things arent working during 90mins. Someone with a lot of knowledge who has experienced most highs and lows in football. Most assistants in the league help coach the team during the 90mins, by adding input from the touchline, or in the managers ear. It definitely can help, but i never see Morris doing that. Which is why i would personally keep him as a coach on the training field, but bring in a wiser head as assistant. Steve Clarke was brilliant at both input and directing the team under Mourinho, despite himself not having much managerial history at the time. ten Cate did it a lot while here. You see it all over the league. The assistant is there praising a player, or talking to a player to up his game. Or barking orders. It does happen, at almost all EPL clubs.

it'd certainly help Lampard. OGS did the same with Phelan, brought him back, use his knowledge on matchday during the 90mins on the touchline

If we're in a game and struggling to break someone down, or looking sloppy and Lampard is scratching his head on how to change it, being able to turn to a guy with X amount of yrs knowledge and say "what can we do?" and have his feedback to both you, and the players on the field, along with motivation and being vocal to the players, is priceless and can, absolutely, improve the performance.
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You keep making all these baseless assertions with zero evidence to back it up. I also love how you say Morris never says anything to Lampard yet you're watching on the telly like everyone else - so if Morris isn't talking to Lampard during one of the dozen or so times they show him on the broadcast, it must be impossible that he ever says anything during the match?

I eagerly await you putting together something actually tangible showing that a more experienced assistant = more success. Protip though that you'll have to ignore the most dominant side in recent memory in Man City. Oh, and also Bayern under Flick.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
You keep making all these baseless assertions with zero evidence to back it up. I also love how you say Morris never says anything to Lampard yet you're watching on the telly like everyone else - so if Morris isn't talking to Lampard during one of the dozen or so times they show him on the broadcast, it must be impossible that he ever says anything during the match?

I eagerly await you putting together something actually tangible showing that a more experienced assistant = more success. Protip though that you'll have to ignore the most dominant side in recent memory in Man City. Oh, and also Bayern under Flick.
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Pep's assistant was Brian Kidd, with about 30 odd yrs experience in the role including 8 under Sir Alex. Currently its Juanma Lillo with about 40 yrs experience. And Hansi Flicks number 2? Hermann Gerland... managing/assisting since about 1981 ish? So yeh, both had vastly experienced right hand men, and still do

But I bet you'll never see Pep asking his assistant for help, or his assistant guiding the team from the touchline.... oh wait, you do

But again, never said more experienced assistant = more success. Stated a more experienced assistant would help the inexperienced manager, and can with his input and coaching from the sideline, improve a performance during a game. Simple, really
 
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ZolaWasMagic said:
psst Pep's assistant was Brian Kidd, with about 30 odd yrs experience in the role including 8 under Sir Alex. Currently its Juanma Lillo with about 40 yrs experience. And Hansi Flicks number 2? Hermann Gerland... managing/assisting since about 1981 ish?

But I bet you'll never see Pep asking his assistant for help, or his assistant guiding the team from the touchline.... oh wait, you do
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Psst Pep's main assistant was Mikel Arteta, who had no prior experience. Fair play re: Bayern; thought that Klose was the number 2 there.

Also again, you're basing your evaluation on what a television broadcast shows you. Having been in the ground on multiple occasions last season, I can tell you that I saw Lampard conferring with his assistants regularly. Just because a TV producer doesn't show it doesn't mean it isn't happening, obviously.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
Psst Pep's main assistant was Mikel Arteta, who had no prior experience. Fair play re: Bayern; thought that Klose was the number 2 there.

Also again, you're basing your evaluation on what a television broadcast shows you. Having been in the ground on multiple occasions last season, I can tell you that I saw Lampard conferring with his assistants regularly. Just because a TV producer doesn't show it doesn't mean it isn't happening, obviously.
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We'll agree to disagree. Brian Kidd was there with Arteta and before him under Mancini i think, and also Pellegrini. Theres a reason they all kept him This wont happen of course, but I think someone like a Hiddink would be far better for Frank than Jody.
 
ZolaWasMagic said:
We'll agree to disagree. Brian Kidd was there with Arteta and before him under Mancini i think, and also Pellegrini. Theres a reason they all kept him This wont happen of course, but I think someone like a Hiddink would be far better for Frank than Jody.
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Fair enough. I can appreciate that position; my issue was solely that you were making blanket assertions with a paucity of evidence. Apologies if I came across as rude, however, that wasn't my intent.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
Fair enough. I can appreciate that position; my issue was solely that you were making blanket assertions with a paucity of evidence. Apologies if I came across as rude, however, that wasn't my intent.
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Not a problem, I love a good debate. :)
 
Frank should get in Harry as an assistant! He can let him do some of the transfers too so we can get the car window interview back.
 
Maluco said:
Frank should get in Harry as an assistant! He can let him do some of the transfers too so we can get the car window interview back.
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We have no need for Niko Kranjcar at the moment.
 
Ole is clearly the best and more experienced among three at the moment. Arteta and Lampard need to be given more time to build the team for long term. In two or three years, we will know who achieves the most if still being in the job.
Arsenal and Chelsea have creative issues in attack. That’s their biggest challenge now as I think.
Chelsea has the best squad depth and many really good players, but none of them is as good as Bruno at the moment. However, they don’t really need to have a superhero. It is just a matter when they can find a system which can bring out the best out of those players all together. Then, one or two of those really good players might become a super player, even though it is not really important. So, Its more about whether the boss has patience. In NYC, in front of a Starbucks store, I once saw Lampard passed by. He kept a low-key profile when he played in MLS. He worn a hoodie a normal guy wears every day. No shining stuffs here or there. Just like a working-class normal guy. I feel he might make it after what he did last season. This season, he has been more conservative. I guess he is still trying to find a balance.
Arsenal is in a real mess. Arteta’s work is the most difficult one if choosing the current situation as base line to compare. But, I think he is the one to blame for his creation of such a mess. I am not very convinced about his man management skill TBH.
 
MayosNoun said:
The thing that annoys me most about Lampard is that everyone, and I don’t just mean Chelsea fans, can see we would suit 4231 far better than 433.

Werner at striker.
Pulisic, Havertz and Ziyech.
Kante and Kovacic.

This puts Werner at striker which Lampard point blank refuses to do, it protects the back 4 whilst freeing up Havertz to be more creative. CHO is the automatic starter if either Ziyech or Pulisic are out.

It’s really an easy solution with players perfect for the formation. The only person who cannot see this is the one paid a fortune to do so.
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We tried 4231 at the start and it wasn't working. We were then in Russia playing shite for an hour with 4231 then a change to 433 changed a brutally unconvincing 1-0 to a cruise of a 4-0 then we went on to have our best run of the season (not to mention a few weeks before that changing from 4231 to 433 in game turned a 3-0 into 3-3).

To add to further to that the Kova and Kante partnership is the definition of better on paper than in practice and Kai himself has said #8 is his best position.

There's a lot of things Lampard has done this season that leaves a lot to be desired (to put it nicely) but moving from that formation isn't one of them, if he's to be criticised in regards to the 4231 atall it should be for not ditching it sooner.
 
Dancfc said:
We tried 4231 at the start and it wasn't working. We were then in Russia playing shite for an hour with 4231 then a change to 433 changed a brutally unconvincing 1-0 to a cruise of a 4-0 then we went on to have our best run of the season (not to mention a few weeks before that changing from 4231 to 433 in game turned a 3-0 into 3-3).

To add to further to that the Kova and Kante partnership is the definition of better on paper than in practice and Kai himself has said #8 is his best position.

There's a lot of things Lampard has done this season that leaves a lot to be desired (to put it nicely) but moving from that formation isn't one of them, if he's to be criticised in regards to the 4231 atall it should be for not ditching it sooner.
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Firstly you couldn’t be more wrong. That formation was tried with Mount and Havertz on the wings. It has never been attempted with the squad suggested.

Secondly, Havertz has said on repeat he prefers the 10 role, including an interview on Chelsea TV. I’m sure if you type Havertz number 10 into Google you will find various articles and probably the interview.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
Totally wrong. Kante and Kovacic fundamentally do not work as a pairing. Neither is great at progressing the ball outside of dribbling it, so you're left with massive spaces in the centre. This also benches Mount, who has been invaluable on set pieces this year.

We improved dramatically when we switched from 4-2-3-1 to 4-3-3 earlier this year. What Lampard needs to do is stop with stupid nonsense like playing Kante on 48 hours' rest out of position as an 8 and playing Werner on the wing against deep-lying defenses where he'll have to get involved in build up play.

If we wind up getting Rice, that changes things potentially - the fundamental issue with the squad is there's no one to partner Kante in a midfield pair.
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This is just so wrong. They both can fundamentally work as a pairing as long as you know how to utilise their assets which Lampard is the issue here and also another issue is that Havertz. Because Havertz hasn’t been creative enough to create chances when he has the ball which makes those two looked worse. It worked when we had McTominay and Fred played double pivot with Bruno in front of them.

Kovacic & Kante have incredible work rate and tenacity to win the ball back, this is so perfect with your current squad as you have James & Chillwel who are attacking full backs that can offer creativity, this offers balance and gives more license to attack with 6 attacking players as if you are hit on counter with your full backs were out of position, Kante & Kovacic will cover the ground to stop the counter.

Kovacic is technical midfielder who tends to drop deep to get the ball and drive the ball forward with his dribble and still capable to supply the ball to the attacking players, that’s also part of making progressive ball. Don’t need to be great in order to supply the ball to attacking players.
 
Mb194dc said:
What about penalties awarded per game.... . Pretty certain OGS is the league leader in that in the last couple of seasons?
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Don't bring Shed End Forum based logic onto Redcafe please. Penalties or not, Ole has been better on all metrics. Atleast the ones that matter.
 
flappyjay said:
I think Ziyech is up there with Bruno and KDB in terms of creativity. If they can get him fit I can say with certanity that they will finish top 4.
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KDB has started the down trend. Hope Bruno can offer three or more years. I worry he will be burned out if we keep playing him almost every game.
Ziyech is very, very good but still needs to do more to match what Bruno has produced.However, for Chelsea, it’s a big deal when he cannot play. In this sense, the importance of his creativity to the team is on par to Bruno.
With that squad, finishing the top 4 is a must for Chelsea. I think Lampard will get it done.
 
Mb194dc said:
What about penalties awarded per game.... . Pretty certain OGS is the league leader in that in the last couple of seasons?
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That's actually credit to Ole. We even had thread here asking why we are not getting penalties when Jose and Van Gaal were managers.

Who knew attacking and taking on players would win penalties.
 
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