He is my favorite defender of all times... Sammer second.. Or Baresi as sweeper and Sammer as libero.. Great defender.
Franco Baresi
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) talk about the proposed new stadium, season ticket prices, Sir Jim Ratcliffe and all things INEOS after the first year of their co-ownership.
They also discuss back-to-back victories vs. Real Sociedad and Leicester City - was this the best week for Amorim so far?
It wasn't "real". The teams didn't have money. Parma and Lazio screwed themselves, the Milan teams have massive debts. Fiorentina are now starting to show their heads again in Europe.
Fiorentina and Parma weren't small clubs like Crystal Palace. Fiorentina were UEFA Cup runners up in '90 and won two cups in the 90s. Parma won a bunch of cups and for league contenders. Small teams didn't have world class foreign players. At some point they had Italian players which they had to sell off but that's normal for any era.
Why use Benzema and Suarez as your example when there are better players than them?
I'm sorry, what?
Ok than. Back in 1990 Germany was still two nations. However they reached the WC finals in 1986 (in Mexico) and won it in 1990. What about Bosnia or specifically former Yugoslavia. Can you fancy the chances of any former Yugoslavian team to win the CL? Because that is what Red Star Belgrade did in 1991. Now if you think that the likes of Dzeko and Pjanic are better than Savicevic, Boban, Prosineski, Suker, Boksic, Mihajlovic and Stojkovic than be my guest!
Portugal are better because of Ronaldo. There again, you used to have national teams like Denmark, Romania and Sweden who produced exceptional talent capable of winning the Euro or reach the WC latter stages
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In terms of strikers you will be hard pressed to find better? I tried to pick two dynamic forwards playing for the world's best teams to use as an example.
Put Messi, Ronaldo, Aguero.. whatever the player from this era, I have no doubt Baresi would be better equipped than any current defender to handle them.
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I went to Parma and Florence on numerous occasions and they aren't great clubs. They were managed magnificently but they weren't big clubs
Parma and Lazio ended up in a shitty situation because their parent companies (Parmalat and Cirio) was lead by crooks. Once Parmalat and Cirio declared bankrupcy they dragged these two sides with them. However I agree that the situation wasn't 'real'. It depended heavily on
a- rich owners playing football manager
b- the EPL staying away from the TV Media rights
c- South American, Holland, German and English clubs selling players on cheap
However irrespective of what happened after, the league in which the likes of Baresi played was by far the toughest and most competitive league the world has and will probably ever see. Even the smaller clubs could afford world class players at the prime of their career.
Totally agree was very competitive plus Italy have the weather much like Spain. England will always fall short in the glamour stakes compared to these countries. The only realistic country to overtake as an attractive country to live would be if the MLS took off and although it is miles off it is getting bigger.
The EPL was still recovering from the sanctions Thatcher so gracefully imposed on all EPL sides. I remember back than reading the Italian newspaper and pissing in my pants because this or that Italian club was linked with our players. Thank god we had a bunch of gentlemen back than because the Italian clubs could have easily outspent us.
Also the EPL was lead by visionaries such as SAF and Edwards who first acknowledged the ability of turning football into a business. If it wasn't the case we would be pretty much like the Italian clubs were they rely mostly on the sugar daddy pumping money in their team
You need some new examples. Sacchi's Milan, with a time machine, would feck Mourinho's Chelsea right up. They would joyously rip them to pieces. But then they were an unbelievable team, hence it's an odd example. Mourinho's Chelsea to Graham's Arsenal I would give you, albeit they were criticized for being boring to the point of life-draining, so not so much difference on that point.
Top talents leave smaller leagues and smaller clubs nowadays sooner, doesn't say the talent isn't there. Most of them are just playing in one of the several top leagues.
And about Yugoslavia. I think they'd still have a very strong team if they were together. Dzeko, Pjanic, Rakitic, Ivanovic, Matic, Modric, Mandzukic.
Baresi was class
as was Maldini
The 'Milan Wall'
as was Maldini
The 'Milan Wall'
Never saw him play live, looks like a real player in highlights and he is rated very highly by many footballers of the past. I remember reading an article he wrote about the defensive aspect to football in the modern game, it was very in depth and noted how a young John Terry and Rio Ferdinand would become greats of the game. 1 out of 2 isn't bad 
Seriously mate. Yugoslavia of the time had the best team of all times. We're talking here about players playing with Real (Suker, Petkovic & Mijatovic), Barcelona (Prosineski) AC Milan (Savicevic and Boban), Juventus (Boksic & Yugovic), Inter (Pancev) etc
Baresi was the best ever, a more talented out and out defender than Maldini.
Always felt McGrath without dodgy knees and other troubles might have got near to him. He was a similar player (although blessed with better physical attributes) they both had an uncanny nose for danger and were both insanely good in a positional sense.
Always felt McGrath without dodgy knees and other troubles might have got near to him. He was a similar player (although blessed with better physical attributes) they both had an uncanny nose for danger and were both insanely good in a positional sense.
He was ahead of his time and would have fitted in today quite happily.
When did Messi face Baresi?
He met someone whose better than him. The one man team - Diego Armando Maradona.
From his Wiki page. (worth a look) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Baresi
During the end of the 1980s and the first half of the 1990s, Baresi was at the heart of a formidable all-Italian defence alongside Paolo Maldini, Alessandro Costacurta, Mauro Tassotti, and later, Christian Panucci, under managers Arrigo Sacchi and Fabio Capello, a defence which is regarded by many as the greatest of all time. When the attacking Dutch trio of Marco van Basten, Ruud Gullit and Frank Rijkaard arrived at the club in the late 1980s, Milan began a period of domestic and international domination, and between 1987 and 1996, at the height of the club's success, the Milan squad contained many Italian and international stars, such as Roberto Donadoni, Carlo Ancelotti, Marco van Basten, Ruud Gullit, Frank Rijkaard, and later, Demetrio Albertini, Dejan Savićević, Zvonimir Boban, Marcel Desailly, George Weah, Jean-Pierre Papin, Brian Laudrup, and Roberto Baggio. Under Sacchi, Milan won the Serie A title in 1987–88, with Baresi helping Milan to concede only 14 goals. This title was immediately followed by an Italian Supercup in 1988 the next season, and back to back European Cups in 1988–89 and 1989–90.[6] Baresi was also runner-up to team mate Van Basten for the Ballon d'Or in 1989, finishing ahead of his other team mate Frank Rijkaard, and was named Serie A Footballer of the Year in 1989–90. Milan also reached the Coppa Italia final during the 1989-90 season.[3][7]
Baresi went on to win four more Serie A titles with Milan under Fabio Capello, including three consecutive titles, during the 1991–92, 1992–93 and the 1993–94 seasons. Baresi helped Milan win the 1991-92 title undefeated, helping Milan to go unbeaten for an Italian record of 58 matches. Milan also scored a record 74 goals that season. During the 1993-94 season, Baresi helped Milan concede a mere 15 goals in Serie A, helping the club to finish the season with the best defence. Baresi also won three consecutive Italian Supercups under Capello, in 1992, 1993, and 1994. Milan also reached three consecutive UEFA Champions League Finals during the 1992-93, 1993-94 and 1994-95 seasons, losing out to Marseille in the 1992-93 tournament, and Ajax in the 1994-95 tournament. Baresi won the third European Cup (UEFA Champions League) of his career in 1993–94 where, Milan defeated Johan Cruyff's 'Dream Team' FC Barcelona 4-0 in the final. Baresi also managed to win the 1994 European Supercup, although Milan were defeated in the 1994 Intercontinental Cup, the 1993 UEFA Super Cup and the 1993 Intercontinental Cup. Under Capello, Milan and Baresi were able to capture another Serie A title during 1995–96 season, Baresi's sixth title in total
During the end of the 1980s and the first half of the 1990s, Baresi was at the heart of a formidable all-Italian defence alongside Paolo Maldini, Alessandro Costacurta, Mauro Tassotti, and later, Christian Panucci, under managers Arrigo Sacchi and Fabio Capello, a defence which is regarded by many as the greatest of all time. When the attacking Dutch trio of Marco van Basten, Ruud Gullit and Frank Rijkaard arrived at the club in the late 1980s, Milan began a period of domestic and international domination, and between 1987 and 1996, at the height of the club's success, the Milan squad contained many Italian and international stars, such as Roberto Donadoni, Carlo Ancelotti, Marco van Basten, Ruud Gullit, Frank Rijkaard, and later, Demetrio Albertini, Dejan Savićević, Zvonimir Boban, Marcel Desailly, George Weah, Jean-Pierre Papin, Brian Laudrup, and Roberto Baggio. Under Sacchi, Milan won the Serie A title in 1987–88, with Baresi helping Milan to concede only 14 goals. This title was immediately followed by an Italian Supercup in 1988 the next season, and back to back European Cups in 1988–89 and 1989–90.[6] Baresi was also runner-up to team mate Van Basten for the Ballon d'Or in 1989, finishing ahead of his other team mate Frank Rijkaard, and was named Serie A Footballer of the Year in 1989–90. Milan also reached the Coppa Italia final during the 1989-90 season.[3][7]
Baresi went on to win four more Serie A titles with Milan under Fabio Capello, including three consecutive titles, during the 1991–92, 1992–93 and the 1993–94 seasons. Baresi helped Milan win the 1991-92 title undefeated, helping Milan to go unbeaten for an Italian record of 58 matches. Milan also scored a record 74 goals that season. During the 1993-94 season, Baresi helped Milan concede a mere 15 goals in Serie A, helping the club to finish the season with the best defence. Baresi also won three consecutive Italian Supercups under Capello, in 1992, 1993, and 1994. Milan also reached three consecutive UEFA Champions League Finals during the 1992-93, 1993-94 and 1994-95 seasons, losing out to Marseille in the 1992-93 tournament, and Ajax in the 1994-95 tournament. Baresi won the third European Cup (UEFA Champions League) of his career in 1993–94 where, Milan defeated Johan Cruyff's 'Dream Team' FC Barcelona 4-0 in the final. Baresi also managed to win the 1994 European Supercup, although Milan were defeated in the 1994 Intercontinental Cup, the 1993 UEFA Super Cup and the 1993 Intercontinental Cup. Under Capello, Milan and Baresi were able to capture another Serie A title during 1995–96 season, Baresi's sixth title in total
I think you're looking back at it with rose tinted glasses mate, as we say in Dutch. When you talk about Boksic you mention Juventus. Or Petkovic, Real Madrid. Or Pancev, you mention Inter. Or Proseniki Barcelona. Like they really succeeded at those clubs and their time there was really worthwhile. Those weren't good years for them, and they all had to leave after a year.
In fairness, from what i gather his original point was re: Red Star 1991. It was a fabulous team and generation, which is why it resulted in the biggest clubs wanting a piece of that. Did it work? No, I agree, they worked better together than they ever did individually in separate setups. But then, the point on Yugoslavia having a great team still stands!
His original point was that there was more talent back then there is now in general, he gave Red Star and Yugoslavia as an example for it. It was a good team no doubt, Yugoslavia in general has alot of talent. I just think they still do, and would be good still as a national team if they were together. But in those days it was far easier for a few top players to carry a team. The elite teams now have more top players in 1 team.
Yeah, that's fair enough, although it has nothing to do with the relative wealth or scarcity of talent but the foreigner rules limiting "asset accummulation from all over the world". Personally, I preferred it the other way, great talent was spread across leagues as a result so any game you watched there was bound to be a cracking player worth watching. Zico played for Udinese, Maradona at Napoli... that would never happen these days and it's a key reason why the CL is held as the ultimate sporting contest: most leagues are actually boring as hell. They used to be far far more competitive.
Bosman ruined football more than anything else. The expansion to up to 4 teams from the top nations in the Champions League is a close second. Those two things changed the football landscape forever and not for the better.
I must say, it is a joy to watch dev talk Serie A.
No, I don't fancy a former Yugoslavian team to be better than Yugoslavia simply because Yugoslavia was a much bigger country than any of them.
Nationial teams come and go in circles most often. Bosnia & Herzegovina is a small country and they reached the WC finals via a European qualification. That's a pretty big deal. I don't fancy them to have done that 30 years ago. Iceland back then was one of the worst teams in Europe. Now they're right behind the Czech Republic and have beaten Turkey and WC 3rd placed team Netherlands. It's purely the result of football having evolved.
Portugal isn't better because of Ronaldo. They're good now because of him. 10 years ago they had a better team. They are beside the point. They were just one of many to counter your England cheery picking argument.
It was the best league in it's time and much of that was because of money being spent that wasn't really there. The ludicrous transfer fees we see now were first seen in Italy. The clubs spending that money now have the income to do so. The Italian clubs didn't.
Parma and Fiorentina were a lot better than Crystal Palace or West Ham (West Ham had Mascherano and Tevez remember). They were winning cups at home and in Europe or at least competing for them and they were also a realistic title challenger. Crystal Palace have only recently been promoted and West Ham are a mid-table club at best.
I am not saying that each player was world class. However the talent was good enough to get a play for the biggest side. Some were truly special though. Savicevic and Boban were magnificent at AC Milan who are the equivalent of today's Bayern (in my opinion AC Milan of the time was a much better team). Mijatovic was La Liga player of the year in 1995-1996, Boksic was tremendous at Lazio while Jugovic was a regular with Juventus. We're talking here about players playing as regular mainly with top clubs. There are much better players that what today's Yugoslavia is producing.
What a funny way to phrase that.
True
. Purely accidental though.Its not my fault that you mentioned two countries who had different borders back than. However you can easily combine the talent of all countries together and compare them with former Yugoslavia. Is there any players in the Balkans as good as Savicevic and Boban? I much doubt it.
You can take other nations in consideration as well. Denmark, Sweden and Romania. The trend is similar with most of the bigger nations (football speaking). Argentina, Italy, Brazil, Holland and England for example. Oh well I am sure that Lineker and Gazza would end up second fiddle to the likes of Henderson and Welbeck. I mean, football back than was pretty amateur right? Ole would probably be cleaning Havard Nielsen boots if he had to play in today's football.
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I wasn't comparing the quality of the two teams. I was comparing the style of football and how it's portrayed now and then.
Plus Costacurta Eranio Pannuci Dessially Conte Lentini all fantastic players and the Dutch trio wow what a decade what a league
AC Milan were exceptional at the time I know. I'm Dutch, I grew up with watching Milan because of Van Basten, Gullit and Rijkaard. but they were the exception at the time. I even think they were the first real elite team, funded by Berlusconi. Then in the 90's other clubs followed, and Bosman was the beginning of the end for any club from a smaller league.
But I honestly think it's a case of football becoming more professional. Big countries like Germany, Spain but also France have improved their youth development nowadays, making it impossible for a country like mine to still compete.
It's your fault for taking my point and turning it into a different one. I was talking about those nations regarding the evolving of football. You turned it into a pissing contest. Of course Yugoslavia had better players. You were naming their best ones and they've come from the current Serbia, Croatia and Montenegro. Three different nations today. USSR was also a lot better than Russia.
National teams are a lot different than club teams. Their success are bound by how good a certain generation is compared to the generation of other nations. You say small countries like Sweden, Denmark or Romania wouldn't do anything? Uruguay reached the semis in 2010. It is smaller than all of them, especially Romania (who are currently topping their Euro qualifying group).
England are doing just as well as they were 20 years ago. Quarter final material with the possibility of advancing further. Argentina has one of the best national teams and almost won it last time. Could also have done it in 2010 had they been more sensible with their manager choices.
Italy were world champions quite recently and were runners up in the last Euros.
You're missing a large point I'm making. The competition is a lot more fierce. There have always been top players. Just now, the average is a lot higher. To play for teams in the top division you need to be better than ever.
You're picking teams that suit your agenda though. Spain has a much stronger team for example, you could argue that they have 2 golden generations at once if you consider the depth of their quality. Belgium has a golden generation. Argentina or Germany are just as good as they were in the 80's and 90's. Uruguay and Columbia have fantastic players. Japan has improved signifcantly for example.
The whole "football is overall so much weaker today" thing is a bit silly to be honest. You don't need to exaggerate to such ridiculous levels to argue that Serie A in the 80's and early 90's was the strongest league ever in football.
You also make it sound as if every small club in Italy was full of worldclass players, when the truth is that the foreigner rule allowed them to buy one or two top stars and many of them totally failed because they were forced to play with a bunch of average Italians. The quality Italian players were mostly playing at the few top clubs after all. The negative style of football then also influenced the competitiveness of the league. Countless draws and only 2 points for a win meant that the top teams couldn't open as big a gap as top teams do in the leagues today. Obviously that means that the competitiveness doesn't reflect the true quality of the smaller teams. You need to factor many things in.
And before you jump at me, I agree that Seria A at the time was the best league we ever saw. I just disagree with the incredibly extreme picture you paint.
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Indeed. It's not necessarily a case of there being less talent in Yugoslavia today, but you simply couldn't get a Red Star to emerge because:
1) The CL would gobble them up, exciting as they were they would probably be a fairy tale which ends abruptly in the quarters at best.
2) The team would never get to form and play with each other long enough because they would all get signed by big teams before turning 18 and dumped in the reserves as part of an investment portfolio (if one comes through, great!).
Which is what is at the root of the talent problem: too much talent goes to waste because they spend years in reserves or being shipped on loan as a result of the business side of football. There's absolutely no question that Red Star generation had the benefit of actually being trusted to play, forming the team, competing... instead of all wasting their development away in some foreign academy, having to deal with living in another country, and all the difficulties associated with that.
You've always had the Ravel's who just feck up, but now you are adding more to the mix: live abroad, and lots of money. Before that was the objective if you made it, now they get it before doing anything of note. Of course the emergence of real talents is affected.
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I think that AC Milan gave a big hit to Dutch football by snapping the Kluivert generation mostly on free. In the past, Dutch football worked in cycles with the sales of the current generation financing the younger generation. Milan broke that cycle at least at Ajax. Which in my opinion is a shame
Modric plays for Real Madrid. Rakitic for Barcelona. Mandzukic was in Bayern and now plays for Atlético. Subatic was in the Dortmund champion side. Vidic played for Man. United. Ivanovic and Matic play for Chelsea. Olic played for Bayern. City has Kolarov and Dzeko and Jovetic. United bought a 17 year old Serbia last summer.
That's a lot of top teams with former Yugoslavian players in their team. Modric was arguably the best midfielder in the EPL when not in a top team and now he's arguably the best midfielder in the currently (also arguably) best league in the world. I don't think it has or will change that players from these countries (formerly country) are good enough to play for the best sides in the world.
The quality in Europe had nosedived with Spain and Belgium being a rare exception and Germany remaining at the same level (more or less). Great Britain, Bulgaria, Romania, Yugoslavia, Holland, Italy, Sweden, Norway etc had all seen a decline in talent. Same thing about South America. Argentina and Brazil aren't what they used to be.
You only have to take a look at the ballon d'or. Between 1990 and 2000 it was given to 10 different players (2 Germans, 2 Brazilians, 2 French, a Dutch, an Italian, a Bulgarian and Liberian). Between 2005 and 2014 it went to 5 players with the same 2 players swapping the title for the past 5 years.