FourFourTwo’s 50 greatest United players of all-time.

jesperjaap said:
He had great feet in the box and scored lots of very good goals, dont disagree there, he also missed a lot of chances and his link up play early on and overall wasnt at the level of a best 50 ever plaeyr for me, it was only quality with Yorke really., he didnt seem to gel with the others, especially Cantona early on. There were several really good England strikers at the time, but there was a reason he didnt play much for England in my opinion.

As for Ole, he always hit the target and corners but wouldnt say he was a brilliant finisher no. He was msot effective off the bench generally.

One thing many forget, his best period really for us surprisingly was when he played on the right, he was keeping Beckham out of the side, admittedly partly due to the problems Beckham was having with the manager with hi ssuperstar status off the pitch.

Yes Yorkes period was very short, but then so was Ruuds, Cantonas, Van Persies, even Ronaldos.....but they are always mentioned, thats why I always find it strange Yorke never is
Click to expand...

I disagree with England. That was just managers choice.. he was clearly better than a lot of strikers which got selected ahead of him and it was pretty much based on likeability at the time which is why Robbie Fowler barely got a sniff(No pun intended).

Ole yes was better on the right. He had great delivery and I agree his variation in finishing wasn’t all that but as I said he hit the ball very clean.

As I typed my Yorke excuse I did think about all of our short term superstars but he really needed atleast one more good season under his belt when you consider RVP for instance had world class season at Arsenal which helped his status. He’s also still my favourite. I’d put RVP over all the strikers I’ve seen for us.
 
Mainoldo said:
Okay so why is CR7 not number 1. Who is officially behind Messi the greatest footballer ever in life.
Click to expand...


Officially where? I cant comment on Pele, Cryuff or Best for example as too young, but unofficially neither are in the top two for me as fantastic as they both were and still are considering there ages
 
Mainoldo said:
I disagree with England. That was just managers choice.. he was clearly better than a lot of strikers which got selected ahead of him and it was pretty much based on likeability at the time which is why Robbie Fowler barely got a sniff(No pun intended).

Ole yes was better on the right. He had great delivery and I agree his variation in finishing wasn’t all that but as I said he hit the ball very clean.

As I typed my Yorke excuse I did think about all of our short term superstars but he really needed atleast one more good season under his belt when you consider RVP for instance had world class season at Arsenal which helped his status. He’s also still my favourite. I’d put RVP over all the strikers I’ve seen for us.
Click to expand...

Was Cole better than Shearer, Sheringham, Fowler, Wright, Owen, Ferdinand individually? I am not knocking Cole, he was a fantastic player for us in our golden period...but individually as a talent, is he really in the best 50 players to grace out shirt and was he better than a lot of those strikers? It was a great period of English strikers, no shame being behind any of them but personally I would put all of them ahead of him and only an argument he is better than a couple
 
jesperjaap said:
Officially where? I cant comment on Pele, Cryuff or Best for example as too young, but unofficially neither are in the top two for me as fantastic as they both were and still are considering there ages
Click to expand...

Statistically those two are untouched and will never be seen probably in our lifetime.

We can name numerous players that have given us what George Best provided. I just find it odd for someone to make him number 1 with so much chest considering he probably never watched him. I wouldn’t have any player I never seen as top but as a supporter of the club I get it.
 
jesperjaap said:
Was Cole better than Shearer, Sheringham, Fowler, Wright, Owen, Ferdinand individually? I am not knocking Cole, he was a fantastic player for us in our golden period...but individually as a talent, is he really in the best 50 players to grace out shirt and was he better than a lot of those strikers? It was a great period of English strikers, no shame being behind any of them but personally I would put all of them ahead of him and only an argument he is better than a couple
Click to expand...

He was better than Fowler, Sheringham and Ian Wright and Ferdinand when he should of been selected for England. We are talking 98 onwards.
 
Mainoldo said:
Statistically those two are untouched and will never be seen probably in our lifetime.

We can name numerous players that have given us what George Best provided. I just find it odd for someone to make him number 1 with so much chest considering he probably never watched him. I wouldn’t have any player I never seen as top but as a supporter of the club I get it.
Click to expand...


See this is why I hate the whole greatest of time arguement.

You have said you can't comment on players you haven't seen and then went and called one you did the greatest of all time.

That does not make sense to me at all. Just say Messi is the best player you have seen not of all time when you already admit you are not qualified to say that.

Also please don't go by stats and nothing else.

In my view I would say Maradona is the best player I have seen. While I barely remember his peak I have seen enough and am happy enough with that selection

As for Best I put him number one because of people I know and respect plenty of room don't even like United but have seen him play and say he was the best they have seen.

I have seen as much footage as I can of him same for the likes of Cruyff, Pele etc but trust people who have seen him a lot more
 
CarbonStoolBites said:
Not a chance, “at least” top 10 for Vidic, that would be silly.
Also wasn’t a fan of how he signed a contract with Inter mid season, whilst still being the club captain during the catastrophic Moyes season.

Great player though.
Click to expand...
Personally, I applauded the move. There is a lot of revisionist history when it comes to Moyes' reign, People now act like they knew it was a mistake all along and they wanted him gone, etc, but in reality, at the time, you couldn't say boo about Moyes without being attacked as not a proper fan and people were determined to not admit Moyes was a mistake because he was SAF chosen one. When Vidic signed that contract it was a message from the players, yeah, this moron doesn't know what he is doing and I am getting the feck out. I think that was a bit of a momentum shifter when it came to Moyes' support.
 
lsd said:
See this is why I hate the whole greatest of time arguement.

You have said you can't comment on players you haven't seen and then went and called one you did the greatest of all time.

That does not make sense to me at all. Just say Messi is the best player you have seen not of all time when you already admit you are not qualified to say that.

Also please don't go by stats and nothing else.

In my view I would say Maradona is the best player I have seen. While I barely remember his peak I have seen enough and am happy enough with that selection

As for Best I put him number one because of people I know and respect plenty of room don't even like United but have seen him play and say he was the best they have seen.

I have seen as much footage as I can of him same for the likes of Cruyff, Pele etc but trust people who have seen him a lot more
Click to expand...

But I’m talking about my opinion. These are the greatest of all time to me. I’ve seen Best too but I can’t say I’ve watched two games of 90 minutes to really say I would put him as the best. I wouldn’t be giving an honest opinion but I respect those before me enough to put him up there. The same with Pele. However the more football I watch the less I validate the years before as I believe football has got better. Might be nepotism but the 90’s 00’s produces the best volume of great footballers. The technical ability was insane.

How can I put George Best as number 1 when he probably was toe to toe with Ajen Robben.
 
Mainoldo said:
But I’m talking about my opinion. These are the greatest of all time to me. I’ve seen Best too but I can’t say I’ve watched two games of 90 minutes to really say I would put him as the best. I wouldn’t be giving an honest opinion but I respect those before me enough to put him up there. The same with Pele. However the more football I watch the less I validate the years before as I believe football has got better. Might be nepotism but the 90’s 00’s produces the best volume of great footballers. The technical ability was insane.

How can I put George Best as number 1 when he probably was toe to toe with Ajen Robben.
Click to expand...

Yeah I think comparing era's in any sport in history is basically impossible. Easier to compare players within their own time, because obviously watching players from the 1950's and imagining them going against Messi or Ronaldo in their primes is ridiculous. Humans evolve, technology evolves, more and more money flows in, etc. To deny that is just being ignorant.
 
Mainoldo said:
But I’m talking about my opinion. These are the greatest of all time to me. I’ve seen Best too but I can’t say I’ve watched two games of 90 minutes to really say I would put him as the best. I wouldn’t be giving an honest opinion but I respect those before me enough to put him up there. The same with Pele. However the more football I watch the less I validate the years before as I believe football has got better. Might be nepotism but the 90’s 00’s produces the best volume of great footballers. The technical ability was insane.

How can I put George Best as number 1 when he probably was toe to toe with Ajen Robben.
Click to expand...


I know it's all opinions but it just bugs me when people want to say someone is best of all time when they really mean best they have seen.

It's pedantic I know.

I would argue that as footballers are more protected now in terms of tackles and contact to say they have more technical ability than people literally hurdling two footed tackles for 90 minutes is a stretch
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
Yeah, I saw. I’m assuming he/she was dropped on his/her head at some point…. Robson was half force of nature/half god.

But seriously, both great players and any team would be lucky to have either in it.

(but Robson was better)
Click to expand...

Agreed. Even Keane looked up to Robson as his role model.
 
SadlerMUFC said:
How is the clubs all time leading scorer not at least in the top 5? Scored more than Charlton in far less games and won a crap load of silverware in the process. It's almost criminal how much people tend to under rate just how good Rooney was...
Click to expand...
Fulls agarre with you. Rooney esa an awedome stricker and at his best probably top 3 player in the world behind Ronaldo and Messi. England’s and United’s top scorer, fundamental in us winning loads of silverware… yet people underrate him all the time.

Rooney is on the same echelon as Shearer and Henry. One of the finest players to grace the PL and world football.
 
jesperjaap said:
Agree, I think many are looking at the medals or period of time here. Cole rightly deserves a place in all of our and hearts, but individually he is incomparable as a finisher with Ruud and lets not forget despite a wealth of talent at the club, his career here was in a transitional period when the side wasnt at its best....He would get in my best ever eleven, Cole wouldnt be a consideration, a few ahead of him for me
Click to expand...

Cole wasn’t here for that much longer than Ruud. 2 years longer I think.

The club wasn’t at its best partly because of RVN. Not because he was a bad player, but the way we played. We were playing to set him up to score (and he was an excellent finisher). He didn’t do much else and his goals were not particularly varied. I think he only scored one from outside the box. There was a marked improvement in the team when Saha played, towards the end of RVNs time.

Cole scored all types of goals, won a shed load of trophies, scored massively important goals, played as part of a team. A lot of people think of him as only being part of the Cole/Yorke partnership when, in fact, the season before Yorke joined, Cole was second in the PFA POTY award, behind only Dennis Bergkamp.
 
united_99 said:
Well in Giggs’ case it does. Same with SAF. When people talk about their longevity they don’t mean winning a couple of Mickey Mouse cups in 10 or so years, they bloody won big trophy after big trophy for as long as they played/managed. So Giggs could be a little lower, yes, but he could very well also be justified 1st. No idea how you can even think of someone like Noble when discussing this.
And this is even without considering that Giggs was one of the most talented players the league has ever seen whereas Noble was well Mark Noble.
Click to expand...
I obviously mentioned Noble because he had longevity too, so, as I said, for me, that counts for very little when assessing our best ever player. Others in this thread thought Giggs deserved, at least in part, it for having played for so long. Of course, Giggs has to be high in the list, but best ever. Not for me - not ever
 
KeanoMagicHat said:
Disagree, De Gea was up there as best goalkeeper in the world at United. Barthez wasn't.

"In 2017–18, David de Gea saved Manchester United 19 points which allowed them to attain 2nd in the Premier League. Based on performances and chances, they should have achieved 6th with 62 points. This was the biggest difference maker performance in Europe by a single player."
Click to expand...
Not sure where the quote is from but DDG has never been anywhere close to being the best in the world. As I said, not even in my top three United keepers and certainly nowhere close to Neuer. I used Barthez as a joke because, again to me, he was
 
CarbonStoolBites said:
Second striker, that was easy. Same as Cantona really.
Click to expand...

His best season for us by far came in the 2010 season right after Ronaldo left. He played as a pure center forward then. That was Rooney at his absolute best. He still had some of his young explosiveness left, but now he was smarter and more experienced and could focus on just scoring goals, which was always his strongest attribute.

That is why he is the club's top scorer. He didn't score that many goals because he was an excellent player who happened to score a lot of goals. He was an excellent goal scorer who happened to have a lot of other tools as well. There's a key difference between the two.
 
Spaghetti said:
Cole wasn’t here for that much longer than Ruud. 2 years longer I think.

The club wasn’t at its best partly because of RVN. Not because he was a bad player, but the way we played. We were playing to set him up to score (and he was an excellent finisher). He didn’t do much else and his goals were not particularly varied. I think he only scored one from outside the box. There was a marked improvement in the team when Saha played, towards the end of RVNs time.

Cole scored all types of goals, won a shed load of trophies, scored massively important goals, played as part of a team. A lot of people think of him as only being part of the Cole/Yorke partnership when, in fact, the season before Yorke joined, Cole was second in the PFA POTY award, behind only Dennis Bergkamp.
Click to expand...

That’s probably the year he was claiming Fowler, Sheringham, Ferdinand and Ian Wright was better than him :rolleyes:

I think it’s becoming proven the guy doesn’t get his flowers.
 
Spaghetti said:
Why?
Click to expand...
Well, for a start RVN was genuinely one of the world’s best strikers in his first three seasons for us, Andy Cole was never in that discussion.

Ruud scored 95 goals in 150 for Manchester United.
Cole scored 93 goals in 195 for Manchester United.

Cole has longevity and more trophies going for him, sure, but he’s also played in more dominant United teams that were a thousand miles superior to 15-17 of the other teams in the league, whilst Ruud was playing when the PL became a lot more competitive.

Andy Cole will also be remembered as a part of a brilliant partnership with Yorke, whilst Ruud had his best seasons for us playing mostly as a sole striker.
 
SadlerMUFC said:
Hate much?
Click to expand...
I don't hate him, because for one that's a strong word and two, he did a lot of great for United over the years.

But I fully admit I don't like him, he's a scummy person, shagging granny prostitutes while his wife and baby are at home, he tried to force his way out of the club when he thought things weren't good, and he stayed beyond his best by date for years, without any self awareness of how he was performing, and how his performances affected the team.
 
Rooney 9th? :lol: :lol:
Best goalscorer in our history, won everything, spent nearly whole career here with being one of key players. 9th!? Laughable. Joke
 
Cole played in more dominant teams that RVN, but he also played in teams were the goal was to play a team orientated attacking game, with everyone scoring not just one player as it was latterly with RVN. No doubt RVN was a better finisher than Cole but give me Cole every time for all round play, link up and creating for others. Cole's development as an all round forward was immense, came to Utd as pure scorer, by 2001 was a superb all around forward.

Badly treated by England, 13 caps over 7 years with many of them being short sub appearances. Jermaine Defoe got 57 England caps, Cole was a vastly better player.
 
As much as I like Cantona - he is way too high on that list. There is no way he is above Keane and Schmeichel
 
CarbonStoolBites said:
Well, for a start RVN was genuinely one of the world’s best strikers in his first three seasons for us, Andy Cole was never in that discussion.

Ruud scored 95 goals in 150 for Manchester United.
Cole scored 93 goals in 195 for Manchester United.

Cole has longevity and more trophies going for him, sure, but he’s also played in more dominant United teams that were a thousand miles superior to 15-17 of the other teams in the league, whilst Ruud was playing when the PL became a lot more competitive.

Andy Cole will also be remembered as a part of a brilliant partnership with Yorke, whilst Ruud had his best seasons for us playing mostly as a sole striker.
Click to expand...


Cole was able to change his game for the good of the team which is why he he won more.

Ruud as good as he was only had the one way of playing and the better the opposition they were able to handle him.

There's a reason he is was called a flat track bully for so much of his time.

It was slightly unfair but his style was predictable and the top teams knew how to stop him
 
Strootman's Finger said:
Or the main striker, or AM, or CM, or on the wing. You can't say definitively that he is anyone of these positions because he played them all.
Click to expand...

He was a second striker who was also fully capable of playing as a lone number 9 - played the best football of his career as a second striker in a loose 4-4-2 with RvN / Saha / Tevez / Van Persie / Hernandez, or lone striker in a 4-5-1 like we used in 2009/10 in particular. That's not at all unusual - similar profile of player to Kane, Van Persie, Benzema, Suarez, etc.

Of the bolded bits, he played on the left wing now and then when he was younger (right wing in one specific game that I recall, Berbatov's league debut for us), in a specific tactical setup deployed in big games. And he got shifted to midfield when he was well past his best and lacked the dynamism to play up front, which is more related to your first point about him being crap in his last 5 seasons with us (slightly harsh - I'd go with 3 instead of 5).

Saying he played multiple positions throughout his career is not the same thing as "no one can even tell you what his best position was".
 
Strootman's Finger said:
I don't hate him, because for one that's a strong word and two, he did a lot of great for United over the years.

But I fully admit I don't like him, he's a scummy person, shagging granny prostitutes while his wife and baby are at home, he tried to force his way out of the club when he thought things weren't good, and he stayed beyond his best by date for years, without any self awareness of how he was performing, and how his performances affected the team.
Click to expand...

I can only imagine how you must feel about the person at #1 on this list
 
Said it before about Giggs but I honestly don't care that Rooney shagged prostitutes, so what. I find it so hypocritical given how widespread infidelity is, would be interested to see an anonymous poll of redcafe to see what % of posters have cheated at some point in their life.
 
King Azaz the Unabridged said:
He was a second striker who was also fully capable of playing as a lone number 9 - played the best football of his career as a second striker in a loose 4-4-2 with RvN / Saha / Tevez / Van Persie / Hernandez, or lone striker in a 4-5-1 like we used in 2009/10 in particular. That's not at all unusual - similar profile of player to Kane, Van Persie, Benzema, Suarez, etc.

Of the bolded bits, he played on the left wing now and then when he was younger (right wing in one specific game that I recall, Berbatov's league debut for us), in a specific tactical setup deployed in big games. And he got shifted to midfield when he was well past his best and lacked the dynamism to play up front, which is more related to your first point about him being crap in his last 5 seasons with us (slightly harsh - I'd go with 3 instead of 5).

Saying he played multiple positions throughout his career is not the same thing as "no one can even tell you what his best position was".
Click to expand...
I didn't use this board at the time, but I used another rather popular one, and during Rooney's last few years I would pose this question all the time, what was/is Rooney's best position? and even his most ardent fans couldn't give a definitive answer. Jack of all trades, master of none.
 
Strootman's Finger said:
during Rooney's last few years I would pose this question all the time, what was/is Rooney's best position? and even his most ardent fans couldn't give a definitive answer
Click to expand...

I mean, the "was" portion is really not difficult at all - I just laid it out, and the other poster you quoted before I responded said the exact same thing. He was a striker

There was an ever-present debate over whether his best role while playing up front was as a goalscorer (the way he played in 2009/10 or 11/12) or a creator (the way he played in the back half of 2010/11 with Hernandez, or his supporting role from 2007-09 when Ronaldo was the main goalscorer). He showed at various points that he was top class in either case - the same way players like Villa and Benzema adapted between leading their teams' attacks and acting as the foil for teammates at various points in their careers.

"Is" is a different question, and if you asked it in his last few years the answers would obviously be skewed by the fact that he was crap anywhere we put him on the pitch by then. He was woeful as a central midfielder when Van Gaal stuck him in there - but Van Gaal only stuck him in there because he stunk out the joint as a striker earlier in the same season. Then Mourinho came in and stuck him at number ten / support striker behind Ibrahimovic in what would, at one time, have been his best position. Except he was finished by then and even more static than 35-year-old Ibrahimovic.
 
Spaghetti said:
Cole wasn’t here for that much longer than Ruud. 2 years longer I think.

The club wasn’t at its best partly because of RVN. Not because he was a bad player, but the way we played. We were playing to set him up to score (and he was an excellent finisher). He didn’t do much else and his goals were not particularly varied. I think he only scored one from outside the box. There was a marked improvement in the team when Saha played, towards the end of RVNs time.

Cole scored all types of goals, won a shed load of trophies, scored massively important goals, played as part of a team. A lot of people think of him as only being part of the Cole/Yorke partnership when, in fact, the season before Yorke joined, Cole was second in the PFA POTY award, behind only Dennis Bergkamp.
Click to expand...

Admittedly, I woul dsay there have been a handful of players i have under rated in there time here Park, Cole and Carrick definately the main ones looking back on there careers, all were invaluable and better than I remember.....however none of them were top top ability wise like others in this list.

Saha was also very good, shame about the injuries, But Cole, you are describing Yorke, who was an excellent all round striker for me one of the most under rated players in the air, excellent and strong holdign the ball up, good technique, dribbling...he was a superb talent. You are saying RVN was just a box player and I agree, so was Cole though and in no way disrespecting Cole if the ball is in the area and you want soembody on the end of it, its RVN over Cole any day of the week
 
Mainoldo said:
He was better than Fowler, Sheringham and Ian Wright and Ferdinand when he should of been selected for England. We are talking 98 onwards.
Click to expand...

Well its opinions rather than facts of course, I completely disagree though
 
You must log in or register to reply here.