Floods in Germany and Belgium | dozens dead and more missing

[Rektsanwalt]

Damn. What’s the prevailing National opinion? Just pure shock or some kind of grand narrative about how it happened, what to do, etc.?

It's hard to tell at the moment, I'm not sure we're yet at this stage. The crisis is still ongoing so I think I will be able to feel some kind of atmosphere in maybe 2 or 3 days. As of now, it feels like many are shocked and surprised. Yet I think the current social reaction is not remotely as strong as it would have been pre corona. In our election year a situation like this obviously has a lot of possible influence on the parties' different campagains and I'm curious to see who plays what card at what point of all of this - huge gains and losses are possible and I think most parties will play it safe as this is germany after all and people aren't too eager to use a crisis like this. Our green party could majorly profit theoretically, but I think they won't push the issue. On the other hand, if the establishment in Nordrhein-Westfalen (CDU + SPD governed, so rather conservative and labor), handles the situation well, especially the CDU could profit because the prime minister Armin Laschet is the candidate for chancelor. If he's able to manage this crisis well, he could show some qualities which he really lacked in this pandemic.
My personal feeling is honestly that during the last years I've gotten so used to catastrophic news (corona, my job and other things that have happened in our world), I'm having a hard time feeling a lot of emotions in a situation like this. Just like corona, news like these have come to stay, that will rather change to the worse than better.

Edit:

ultimate cause being climage change is the only thing I've read so far

 

[golden_blunder]

This is heartbreaking and incredibly shocking.
It feels like the world is crumbling before our eyes every other day as a result of climate change, and we're just sat by watching billionaires launch themselves to space for funsies.

You just made me think of that bit from “2012” where they are all trying to get rich people onto private shuttles to space as earth is collapsing.
makes you wonder why the billionaires are all rushing to get their space programs online

 

[nimic]

You just made me think of that bit from “2012” where they are all trying to get rich people onto private shuttles to space as earth is collapsing.
makes you wonder why the billionaires are all rushing to get their space programs online

Oh there's definitely something in that. Musk doesn't want to save the Earth, he wants to be king of Mars.

 

[villain]

You just made me think of that bit from “2012” where they are all trying to get rich people onto private shuttles to space as earth is collapsing.
makes you wonder why the billionaires are all rushing to get their space programs online

Capitalism primarily, ego secondly I would think. Nothing worthwhile is going to come from their space programs, they're just doing it because they can.

 

[Gehrman]

Oh there's definitely something in that. Musk doesn't want to save the Earth, he wants to be king of Mars.

Considering that Musk pioneers electric cars isn't he essentially doing something? Not that I really believe him or the others really give much of a shit about it.

 

[nimic]

Considering that Musk pioneers electric cars isn't he essentially doing something? Not that I really believe him or the others really give much of a shit about it.

He is, but it's his motivations I am doubting.

 

[e.cantona]

Considering that Musk pioneers electric cars isn't he essentially doing something? Not that I really believe him or the others really give much of a shit about it.

He do seem like one of the few well intentioned people actually doing something. He's doubted and hated a lot just down to his success in doing shit, and doing shit takes a lot of time.

 

[Cheimoon]

ultimate cause being climage change is the only thing I've read so far

From what I've read, these floods aren't unique (although this one is particularly big). Like, in the 90s, excessive rainfall cause a whole region just north of where I grew up in the Netherlands to be evacuated, because it would be covered in its entirety with several meters of water if the Maas and/or Waal dikes would have failed. Climate change is now making these floods more common, causing them to become once-a-decade instead of once-a-century events (or some such change of frequency; I'm making up the numbers here), and so construction and habitation standards have to be adjusted accordingly - but obviously haven't yet.

But yeah, this situation now also seems a good but worse than other flooding in the past century or so...

Edit: My perception of this might also be coloured by me reading Dutch news about this predominantly, and there the flooding has been nowhere near as bad.

 

[esmufc07]

 

[Gehrman]

He is, but it's his motivations I am doubting.

He probably wants to make a lot of money of it. As does a lot of people in the sustainable energy business. Of course I wouldn't mind seeing filthy rich people like him spend their business wealth on something altruistic whatever it is.

 

[HTG]

I went to friends today to load up all devices I have. We’re finally getting some internet and some reception for our phones. I still don’t have power at home. The city is full of rubble and a field of destruction. Cars have been overturned, some streets are completely destructed. My grandmas house’s groundfloor was filled with water up to her head. We’ve been able to get it out today. The manager of my favorite restaurant drowned in her car.

And the truth is, I, my friends and family, we’ve been so fecking lucky. It could’ve been so much worse. My place is unaffected. So is my sisters and my mothers. We‘ll get through this and we’ll build this ugly ass city up again. I’m sure about it.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Horrible stuff. I'm worried about my relatives over there.

 

[nimic]

I went to friends today to load up all devices I have. We’re finally getting some internet and some reception for our phones. I still don’t have power at home. The city is full of rubble and a field of destruction. Cars have been overturned, some streets are completely destructed. My grandmas house’s groundfloor was filled with water up to her head. We’ve been able to get it out today. The manager of my favorite restaurant drowned in her car.

And the truth is, I, my friends and family, we’ve been so fecking lucky. It could’ve been so much worse. My place is unaffected. So is my sisters and my mothers. We‘ll get through this and we’ll build this ugly ass city up again. I’m sure about it.

Good to hear that it's going okay, under the circumstances.

 

[HTG]

Good to hear that it's going okay, under the circumstances.

The most incredible thing about this, is the way my grandma handles everything. That woman is so resilient, it’s incredible. 86 years old and just cleaning her place the best she can. Because she’s be bored otherwise. She’s so great.

 

[esmufc07]

I went to friends today to load up all devices I have. We’re finally getting some internet and some reception for our phones. I still don’t have power at home. The city is full of rubble and a field of destruction. Cars have been overturned, some streets are completely destructed. My grandmas house’s groundfloor was filled with water up to her head. We’ve been able to get it out today. The manager of my favorite restaurant drowned in her car.

And the truth is, I, my friends and family, we’ve been so fecking lucky. It could’ve been so much worse. My place is unaffected. So is my sisters and my mothers. We‘ll get through this and we’ll build this ugly ass city up again. I’m sure about it.

All the best man, stay safe. Your gran sounds like a grand woman.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

The most incredible thing about this, is the way my grandma handles everything. That woman is so resilient, it’s incredible. 86 years old and just cleaning her place the best she can. Because she’s be bored otherwise. She’s so great.

Seeing as she's that age she'll have gone through the war as a young girl. There probably isn't much that would phase her.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Considering that Musk pioneers electric cars isn't he essentially doing something? Not that I really believe him or the others really give much of a shit about it.

Electric cars are not good for the environment.

 

[Cheimoon]

Electric cars are not good for the environment.

Depends on what aspect you focus on. I think it's only battery disposal that's bad, everything else is better than gas cars.

 

[kidbob]

I'll have to go against the posts that say that this is shocking. Unfortunately its absolutely not shocking at all considering what the experts have told us about climate change. Worldwide this last few months just seem to be the first very obvious signs of this stuff. Yes the likes of Africa and South America will have it worse in the beginning but nowhere will be safe and this stuff will become more and more normal. Its horrible to see and I feel for all of those effected but to be honest I have given up. There is nothing that 90% of the population can do to stop this when faced with such constant misinformation and propaganda. We'll be told to change our ways to yet another cash grab that is still unsustainable and it'll continue to be blamed on us as the situation becomes worse and worse but its done unless some geniuses find an amazing solution, but I personally believe this is the one time they won't. The inevitable end game of expecting endless growth from finite resources.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Depends on what aspect you focus on. I think it's only battery disposal that's bad, everything else is better than gas cars.

To be fair, my glib one line helped nobody.

They are better for many, but not better for most. It’s points of confluence, by country, driving type, rural vs urban, annual mileage and another 100 variables.

It’s not clean technology. Tesla kind of sold itself on the idea of ‘Buy a car that gives you free ‘fuel’ as it recharges overnight from your solar panels’. Which is a nice ideal. But hopelessly useless for most people.

The whole world using primarily small capacity fossil fuel engines with crazy mpg, would be better for the planet in the short term. If we used a decade or two to develop battery tech that didn’t rape the planet and have such a short life cycle that is. Legislate fossil fuels into obsolescence from 2000 to 2040. Legislate E-Vehicles to ensure the initial jump off point in 2020-2030 isn’t just a slightly friendlier replacement. We fcuked it up as there was no plan.

 

[Brwned]

From what I've read, these floods aren't unique (although this one is particularly big). Like, in the 90s, excessive rainfall cause a whole region just north of where I grew up in the Netherlands to be evacuated, because it would be covered in its entirety with several meters of water if the Maas and/or Waal dikes would have failed. Climate change is now making these floods more common, causing them to become once-a-decade instead of once-a-century events (or some such change of frequency; I'm making up the numbers here), and so construction and habitation standards have to be adjusted accordingly - but obviously haven't yet.

But yeah, this situation now also seems a good but worse than other flooding in the past century or so...

Edit: My perception of this might also be coloured by me reading Dutch news about this predominantly, and there the flooding has been nowhere near as bad.

Yeah I think it might be the Dutch perspective, there's certainly a lot of references to this being a historic event:

But even as extreme weather events become increasingly common around the globe — whether wildfires in the American West, or more intense hurricanes in the Caribbean — the floods that cut a wide path of destruction through Germany, Belgium, Switzerland and the Netherlands this week were virtually unheard-of, according to meteorologists and German officials.

German officials said Friday their warning system, which includes a network of sensors that measure river levels in real time, functioned as it was supposed to. The problem, they said, was an amount of rain they had never seen before — falling so rapidly that it engorged even small streams and rivers not normally considered threats.

To describe the events of recent days as a 100-year flood would be an understatement, said Uwe Kirsche, a spokesman for the German Weather Service, calling it a flood the likes of which had not been seen in perhaps a millennium.

“With these small rivers, they have never experienced anything like that,” Mr. Kirsche said. “Nobody could prepare because no one expected something like this.”

On Tuesday Felix Dietsch, a meteorologist for the German Weather Service, went on YouTube to warn that some areas of southwest Germany could receive previously unimaginable volumes of rain. Up to 70 liters, or more than 18 gallons, of water could pour down on an area of one square meter within a few hours, he warned.

Across the border in Belgium, 20 people were confirmed dead and 20 remained missing, the country’s prime minister, Alexander De Croo, said on Friday, calling the floods “the most disastrous that our country has ever known.”

Waters rose on lakes in Switzerland and across waterways in the Netherlands, leaving hundreds of houses without power and submerging the city center of Valkenburg in the Netherlands, although neither country suffered deaths or the destruction inflicted on German towns.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

It came close to happening in England only last year



Plenty of engineers doubt that the existing reservoirs are fit for purpose anymore.

 

[Cheimoon]

Yeah I think it might be the Dutch perspective, there's certainly a lot of references to this being a historic event:

Yeah, I did read in my newspaper actually that the size of this can be understood simply by looking at those villages that the water has been wiping away. Full of centuries-old houses that by their simple existence prove that floods of this magnitude haven't happened in a long long time.

 

[HTG]

The way people are helping each other is stunning. Basically everyone is jumping in, assisting wherever they can. There is nothing that doesn’t get shared amongst everyone. People walk the streets, offering everyone food, coffee or water. That’s the wonderful side of things right now and I’m certain I won’t forget all these wonderful, helpful people.
The dark side is hearing the stories about those that were taken from us. It’s heartbreaking.

The situation for us is improving. We still don’t have any power, though. Phone reception is getting somewhat stable and internet is getting better, too. We worked the whole day to clean out my grandmas basement. We’re still not done, but we made progress. I’m completely exhausted right now and very tired. Yet I’m still in a kind of good mood. Still optimistic we’ll get through it soon and well.

 

[do.ob]

This is our head of state, as he speaks about the victims and damage of the flood and how they now need help. And in the backround you see Armin Laschet (left most person), Merkel's would be successor, who seems to be stumbling from faux pas to the next (e.g. "You don't change policy, because today is one of these days").
Which is especially stupid, since in 2002 there already once was a catstrophic flooding shortly before an election and the way both candidates dealt with it was supposed to have been a deciding factor in a tight race.

 

[Oo0AahCantona]

You just made me think of that bit from “2012” where they are all trying to get rich people onto private shuttles to space as earth is collapsing.
makes you wonder why the billionaires are all rushing to get their space programs online

Half joking half not, but if it genuinely down the line got to that point, lets just say fat chance they are allowed to leave the mess they made.

 

[VorZakone]

What caused the floods? More rain than anticipated? Weak protections?

 

[UweBein]

A lot of rain. Something like 150 litres per square meter per day.
Then a lot of banks and dams did not withstand the pressure. One of the areas - in NRW - has on of the highest densities of dams in the world, but it was still too much rain. Also this year was rainy anyway so there was probably not that much free capacity.

 

[do.ob]

It looks like similar stuff is now happening further down South on both sides of the border between Austria and Germany. Though as far as I can tell no dead or missing people reported yet.

 

[George Owen]

A lot of rain. Something like 150 litres per square meter per day.
Then a lot of banks and dams did not withstand the pressure. One of the areas - in NRW - has on of the highest densities of dams in the world, but it was still too much rain. Also this year was rainy anyway so there was probably not that much free capacity.

That's definitely part of the problem.

Water is supposed to flow freely into the oceans/lakes. Not to be contained in dams.

https://reliefweb.int/report/bangladesh/dams-accused-role-flooding-research-paper-dams-and-floods

 

[oates]

It looks like similar stuff is now happening further down South on both sides of the border between Austria and Germany. Though as far as I can tell no dead or missing people reported yet.

Different storms, same moisture filled air heading South?

 

[Ecstatic]

Governments and media and very eager to blame this all on climate change and use for promotion of the EU's undemocratic green deal that makes the citizens pay for letting big industry, China and globalization in general off the hook. I don't say climate change has nothing to with it, but it's probably a bit more complicated than that.

Yes, the issue is complex and the History of the humanity shows these extraordinary events are not necessarily new.

Is the human being responsible? If the answer is yes, then a change of lifestyle in terms of energy consumption would be required and the population is not inclined to make necessary sacrifices whose positive effects will take a while.

What caused the floods? More rain than anticipated? Weak protections?

Good questions. Also, did it hurt mainly areas.with high densities of population? In other words, the water should be ideally absorbed by the ground.

 

[SinNombre]

While climate change certainly exacerbates these events, I think society would be well served by understanding the impact of damming and cramping of rivers on flooding as well.

How much has erosion and urbanization impacted this?

 

[2ndTouch]

While climate change certainly exacerbates these events, I think society would be well served by understanding the impact of damming and cramping of rivers on flooding as well.

How much has erosion and urbanization impacted this?

Actually, not that much. The rivers in the area that has been suffering from the most casualties had been restored over the past years. When you get 150-200l/m² of rainfall in an area of hills and valleys, there's just little you can do to prevent such a catastrophe.

 

[Dr. Funkenstein]

Yes, the issue is complex and the History of the humanity shows these extraordinary events are not necessarily new.

Is the human being responsible? If the answer is yes, then a change of lifestyle in terms of energy consumption would be required and the population is not inclined to make necessary sacrifices whose positive effects will take a while.

I've been convinced of MMGW since the early 90's because the evidence was there. I'm just not convinced the same people, parties, companies and technocrates who have caused the extreme urgency the claim are genuinely attempting to solve this and not use it for other agenda's. The fact that there is MMGW does not mean it's the (primary) cause of everything.

While climate change certainly exacerbates these events, I think society would be well served by understanding the impact of damming and cramping of rivers on flooding as well.

How much has erosion and urbanization impacted this?

The Netherlands has changed it's strategy about 25 years ago and decided on room for the rivers rather than just strengthening dykes to handle the water that has been speed up by narrow and straightened banks and joins the rivers quicker because of urbanization. I don't know the situation in Germany and Belgium (other than that a sluice didn't work properly), but the same water that caused a disaster in Germany and Belgium has to leave through the Netherlands where it's merely an emergency right after the border, to become more of just a hinderance further downstream. People have been orderly evacuated, a cow has been rescued 100 km downstream from it's farm and there's a lot of cleaning up and insurance forms to do but for now that seems to be about it.

Is that because the water finally has somewhere to go?

 

[Cheimoon]

Is that because the water finally has somewhere to go?

Yes, but that in turn is mostly because of this:

When you get 150-200l/m² of rainfall in an area of hills and valleys, there's just little you can do to prevent such a catastrophe.

The worst flooding hasn't happened in urban areas that are too built up, but in small towns situated in valleys alongside rivers that are normally small and cute. Dams aren't the problem there either. It's just the enormous amount of rain.

 

[Blackwidow]

The weather is going to extremes that were never seen before.

Stolen from instagram of quarks.de who really explain the problem very well!

Reason 1: The jet stream, the band of wind that influences our weather situation, is getting weaker (yellow line). Because: Its speed depends on the temperature difference between the North Pole and the equator, which continues to decrease due to climate change.

The slower the jet stream becomes, the longer the weather conditions last and become more extreme. The US is experiencing an extreme heat wave. Destructive masses of water are raining down on us.
.
Reason 2: Increasing warmth ensures that clouds can store more water. If the air becomes one degree warmer, it can absorb seven percent more water. When the air is warm, huge mountains of clouds can tower over the ocean, which then suddenly rain down.

The sledge track in Königssee got hit yesterday night

 

[HTG]

And another day of hard work is over. My grandmas basement is finally empty. The hardest work is done. I just had my first hot shower since Wednesday and just ate my first warm meal since then. That pizza just now might have been the best meal of my life.
Things are slowly getting better. But still no power for us.

 

[El-Manos]

And another day of hard work is over. My grandmas basement is finally empty. The hardest work is done. I just had my first hot shower since Wednesday and just ate my first warm meal since then. That pizza just now might have been the best meal of my life.
Things are slowly getting better. But still no power for us.

That’s horrible man. Best of luck with it all. My family is in Belgium but thankfully they’re ok.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Impressive response from the various ultras.