Still not getting over of how Southgate allowed Saka, that kid, to take the last kick! So unfair on that poor kid. Usually most reliable shooters take first and the last penalty. Then he picked Sancho who is not even a regular penalty shooter for Dortmund. Again, why??
Final: Italy vs England
- Thread starter ivaldo
- Start date
No, you don't see this kind of attitude at the Olympics.
It goes to show how football is and will always be a sport for the working class.
Didn't test them with pace once from what I recall. Can't remember 1 run in behind their centre backs all night.
What you think @Classical Mechanic?
After waking up this morning I’m still wondering why Saka was out on the 5th penalty.
Italy deserved the game overall, we were strong first half but Gareth did his usual in the second and tried to shut up shop with a 1-0, and pump the ball up with counter attacks. Generally giving possession away. Horrible to watch.
To bring Rashford/Sancho on with 30 seconds to go before penalties. Barely getting a touch of the ball…honestly those last 3 PK takers probably smash the ball in the net in a training session but it’s Wembley with 90k fans, and the pressure changes everything. You can’t train for that. Just a poor decision from Gareth, but we can’t complain Italy pushed for it more and deserved it.
Well done to all you Italians!
Italy deserved the game overall, we were strong first half but Gareth did his usual in the second and tried to shut up shop with a 1-0, and pump the ball up with counter attacks. Generally giving possession away. Horrible to watch.
To bring Rashford/Sancho on with 30 seconds to go before penalties. Barely getting a touch of the ball…honestly those last 3 PK takers probably smash the ball in the net in a training session but it’s Wembley with 90k fans, and the pressure changes everything. You can’t train for that. Just a poor decision from Gareth, but we can’t complain Italy pushed for it more and deserved it.
Well done to all you Italians!
So i'm embarassing myself he says - that's ok as i respect your opinion.
My opinion is that Italy rode their luck and won on penalties against Spain who should have won that game if it weren't for their mistakes in scoring.
They won on penalties too yesterday and kicked lumps out of the English players and Chiellini should have been sent off for the violent tug on Saka.
Referee was very biased and he should have reviewed VAR for the penalty call on Sterling
Well done Italy.
Good. Can’t think of anything worse than it turning into a Rugby or Tennis crowd.
Italy's main strength was their midfield.
So what does Southgate do? sit the team back on the edge of our box and allow them to play all night long with no pressue
as soon as we go 1-1 he makes changes which get us back into the match, WHY NOT DO THAT BEFORE THEY SCORE
So what does Southgate do? sit the team back on the edge of our box and allow them to play all night long with no pressue
as soon as we go 1-1 he makes changes which get us back into the match, WHY NOT DO THAT BEFORE THEY SCORE
You are entitled to your opinion whether you have won a medal or not.
Anyway, I well remember my young daughter who was a very good swimmer coming 2nd at her very first gala. We were all delighted for her.
After she was presented with her silver medal, she came back and threw it in her swimming bag. We asked what was wrong and she said that she did not do all that training just to come 2nd. She was 10 by the way.
And that is the difference between those who have a strong competitive nature. 2nd is the 1st of the losers.
Well he didn't do it just for the hell of it.
Doesn't matter what age. You are part of the squad.
You can be sure that penalties were practiced numerous times in training.
And you could argue that the younger players were not weighed down by the burden of repeated England penalty failures.
Both Saka and Sancho are technically gifted footballers.
Penalties are a lottery. Some you win and some you don't.
It just isn't worth over analysing it.
And anyway, we should have had the ability to win it in normal time.
Chiellini's challenge is never a red, just a tactical foul. Just a great play.
I think he missed a trick with the penalties. Saying they are the best 5 kick takers is just bizzare. IF anything you want to pick the 5 players with the most, guys, gile and with the biggest balls. I would have had them on the training ground throwing dodgeballs in the rain trying to score penalties with people shouting and trying to put them off. Not on warm summers days with no pressure looking who had the best technique. That's why i think you have to give the pens to people who WANT to take them on the night and after the game. Not choose! which is just wrong the latter you introduce situations where people are really not wanting to take them - as opposed to people that are wanting to take them with slightly less better technique.
Absolutely not, it's not a clear goal scoring opportunity by any stretch of the imagination, and although it does feel like a yellow isn't enough punishment for the pull, but the rules are very clear, I can understand why you feel Chiellini got away with it.
Italy themselves had a few good chances to score in the 2nd half when they were playing on the counter. Berardi himself had two opportunities.
Even yesterday they looked like they wanted it more and would've deserved it had they won it in regular time itself. There was no luck about anything that happened yesterday.
Agreed. The way we started the match, we could've won this with a different managerial mindset.
I mean
I’ve loved this tournament
we got to a Final, buzzing
moved on from my disappointment with in play match decisions notably late subs etc and a missed chance being at Wembley bla bla bla, that all does suck
but stepping back what a journey that was
great hopes for the World Cup
I’ve loved this tournament
we got to a Final, buzzing
moved on from my disappointment with in play match decisions notably late subs etc and a missed chance being at Wembley bla bla bla, that all does suck
but stepping back what a journey that was
great hopes for the World Cup
Im baffled that Southgate don`t go for the win especially when Chiesa (Italy`s best player attacking wise) goes off injured.
Urgh still absolutely gutted this morning... can't help but thinking how it could have been so different.
Great tournament, and we did well to get to the final... but Gareth really ballsed it up right when it mattered.
Great tournament, and we did well to get to the final... but Gareth really ballsed it up right when it mattered.
Hes done well to get us this far and has changed the culture and mentality of the group. But I think he's taken us as far as he can..
Aye Southgate deserves so much praise getting us here
but
he well and truly fecked things up from the 2nd half onwards, that can’t be denied, way too cautious, we were winning and at Wembley
his decision making tonight willprobably haunt him as much as the 96 miss imo
but still a great tournament from us
The funny thing is, I thought the Italians looked gassed in ET. Rashford and Sancho could have done serious damage.
The second half was crying out for Bellingham to be on the pitch in our midfield.
We dearly needed players on the pitch that are comfortable in possession on the ball like grealish and sancho as well.
Just awful pragmatic risk averse tactics from southgate, why was it that southgate was happy to sub off a sub in grealish in the last game but didn't do the same with saka who along with the other bad sub in Henderson was having an awful game and saka is not exactly the type of player that can be poor all game and then do something special out of nowhere, the only thing that kept him on the pitch is because he tracks back.
It's a shame we really never really tested bonucci and chiellini, the constant tactic of hoofing the ball up in the air to our forwards was bread and butter for Italy's backline.
We dearly needed players on the pitch that are comfortable in possession on the ball like grealish and sancho as well.
Just awful pragmatic risk averse tactics from southgate, why was it that southgate was happy to sub off a sub in grealish in the last game but didn't do the same with saka who along with the other bad sub in Henderson was having an awful game and saka is not exactly the type of player that can be poor all game and then do something special out of nowhere, the only thing that kept him on the pitch is because he tracks back.
It's a shame we really never really tested bonucci and chiellini, the constant tactic of hoofing the ball up in the air to our forwards was bread and butter for Italy's backline.
Agree with all of this, manager did well until this game and he was too passive from maybe the hour mark onwards, needed to help the team.
Southgate has a huge blind spot with regards to using his bench - we could have won the Denmark semi in normal time and saved some energy as well if he'd brought one or both of those players on, and it would have given Sterling a bit of a rest.
Unfortunately Southgate only seems to trust 12/13 of the players in his squad, compared to Mancini who used his entire squad, and that was the difference in the final.
The whole country could see this except the one man with which it mattered. Extremely frustrating.
It was a classic case of scoring TOO early in the game.
Sadly this will be the case in World Cup aswell, cant see Southgate change his ways.
I don't think so. We have seen Southgate play this way before. It was just the same poor game management from Southgate. I think the worst substitution was Saka. You could tell he was "raw" from watching his games, yet he managed to play ahead of presumably a fully fit Sancho that had a good game when Saka was injured. It really riles me up to be honest. It feels like an opportunity lost. We may not have gone on and won with those players but at least we would have given it more of a go.
Agree. I think he has done a lot of good things, but he has to change his attitude. Tournament football is about winning games, he is frightened of losing games. We could have won that game yesterday if he had made his decisions quicker.
Props to Southgate for getting this far - I never thought we'd even make it to the semi's let alone the final. However, the way the Italy game panned out is exactly what so many feared with Southgate in charge. Don't get me wrong, I see the value in pragmatism and being able to grind out results - it's essential. But he couldn't get the balance right. England had an abundance of creativity sat on the bench when we were crying out for it. The warning signs were there before Italy had scored - yet, Southgate decided not to react to it. The first 45 minutes was perfectly executed so fair play to him. But that approach was not going to be sustainable for the rest of the game and I think everyone in the country could see that.
On another day we would have won that in normal time.
Spent two hours in bed last night wondering what the hell Saka was doing taking that last penalty. Then he should have brought on Rashford and Sancho at the start of extra time.
Unless England win the world cup we are going to be talking about those penalties in 40 years time.
Unless England win the world cup we are going to be talking about those penalties in 40 years time.
I'm just glad we can all now go back to normal life:
This is one of the things I don't get. We could have still done his little defensive approach, but at least bring on some fresh weapons to hurt Italy, Sancho and Rashford running at that tired defence? Surely could have caused a few problems, a few more than we managed to muster.
Yes, the FA is incredibly conservative in how they believe how football should be managed and played. And it shows in the pitch.
I thought it would be a massive advantage to England to be playing to a virtually full-house home crowd, but I think on reflection it was a poisoned chalice. Italy only had about a thousand fans there, every touch was booed and the penalties were taken at the home end. The pressure was off them, in an upside-down way.
They say history is written by the winners and now we now england aren’t the winners it would be helpful to reflect on the tournament a bit more objectively. Too much of the coverage tends to seem quite hysterical e.g saying England lit up the tournament.
Southgate clearly planned pre tournament to go for a controlled approach designed to restrict opportunities for the opposition and hope our attacking talent would take the limited opportunity presented to them. This worked to an extent but made our games a hard watch and led to us struggling in the second half of the final. When it went well we looked controlled and composed but often we looked to be playing with a lot of fear and the team created very few chances throughout the tournament.
Usage of personnel – the chosen personnel reflected this to an extent with some players chosen on the basis of graft rather than technical ability e.g. mount. Sancho, Foden, Grealish, Bellingham all should have got more minutes earlier in the tournament (particularly Sancho) so they would have been able to contribute later in the tournament. Given England had so much depth in attacking positions (possibly more than any other team) it does feel like a more proactive approach might have been able to bring more from this group of players.
Tactics in the final – We were in a great position at half time but needed to be proactive in making changes then because it was clear Italy were on top by the end of the first half. In the end the changes that came weren’t the right ones and weren’t sufficient, personally I would have hooked Saka for Sancho once it was clear he was having a bad game. Although the 343 worked for most of the first half – I would have favoured a 433 because it left us with only sterling making runs in behind and gave Bonucci and Chiellini a fairly comfortable night.
Ultimately I am left with the sense that England had a decent tournament aided by an easy run in but we passed up an opportunity to (i) win the thing (ii) make significant progression in terms of the playing style that could support long term success. As a utd fan, Southgate does remind me of Ole in a number of ways – he is a good man manager, quite likeable, able to come up with decent pre game plans but struggles to adapt to changes in game and just isn’t quite an elite manager.
Southgate clearly planned pre tournament to go for a controlled approach designed to restrict opportunities for the opposition and hope our attacking talent would take the limited opportunity presented to them. This worked to an extent but made our games a hard watch and led to us struggling in the second half of the final. When it went well we looked controlled and composed but often we looked to be playing with a lot of fear and the team created very few chances throughout the tournament.
Usage of personnel – the chosen personnel reflected this to an extent with some players chosen on the basis of graft rather than technical ability e.g. mount. Sancho, Foden, Grealish, Bellingham all should have got more minutes earlier in the tournament (particularly Sancho) so they would have been able to contribute later in the tournament. Given England had so much depth in attacking positions (possibly more than any other team) it does feel like a more proactive approach might have been able to bring more from this group of players.
Tactics in the final – We were in a great position at half time but needed to be proactive in making changes then because it was clear Italy were on top by the end of the first half. In the end the changes that came weren’t the right ones and weren’t sufficient, personally I would have hooked Saka for Sancho once it was clear he was having a bad game. Although the 343 worked for most of the first half – I would have favoured a 433 because it left us with only sterling making runs in behind and gave Bonucci and Chiellini a fairly comfortable night.
Ultimately I am left with the sense that England had a decent tournament aided by an easy run in but we passed up an opportunity to (i) win the thing (ii) make significant progression in terms of the playing style that could support long term success. As a utd fan, Southgate does remind me of Ole in a number of ways – he is a good man manager, quite likeable, able to come up with decent pre game plans but struggles to adapt to changes in game and just isn’t quite an elite manager.
You hit the nail on the head there mate, the fear of losing became bigger than the will to win basicly.
It’s a counterfactual question isn’t it. We could of gone toe to toe and lost 3-1 or won 3-1 so we’ll never know. What we do know is that ultimately we came unstuck on penalties again. After Maguire hammered that one in it looked like we’d taken control of the shootout so it’s even more disappointing. At half time it felt like it had been too easy but in the second half when we couldn’t press as hard their superior midfield took control and we looked spent. The search for an English Veratti continues……….
I feel massively sorry for Sancho and Saka I really do. Rashford is more experienced but I don’t think those two should have been on those pens when Grealish and Sterling were there. That’s an error by Southgate.
Its fair to say that Italy were the best team in the tournament and the better side over the 120 minutes so congratulations to them.
I’m going to switch off from football for a while as it was a draining experience in a way. I actually feel so much more relaxed today than I have for weeks! I think this place has been toxic lately too.
I know football hurts but I was disappointed with our fans in terms of showing appreciation to the boys last night. At least 60-70% walked out after the pens.
Spain should arguably have been in the final ahead of Italy from their semi-final, if you're going on the basis of deserved being a reflection of the balance of play. Until football results are partly determined by judges awarding for artistic merit, 'deserved' will remain a frustrating way of explaining things. Once the match ends, the shoot-out is a different event, like having to switch from the long jump to the high jump in the decathlon. The first event between the two sides couldn't produce a winner, but Italy won the next event, so they effectively won the whole contest 1-0, if you like. They deserved to win because they were demonstrably measurably better at one of the two events contested. What we really need is a less frustrating 'event' to decide the results of huge matches that end all-square after extra-time!
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