He could if your manager could remove his blinkers for Lovren and Henderson, two really weird players for any team trying to win the league. Klopp is supposed to be this great manager but he has the tools he doesn't use properly sometimes. That's why he loses so many finals too
Fernandinho, Man City's unsung hero?
- Thread starter VorZakone
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MOTM for me tonight. He’s City’s best player by a distance! It’s evident as well that when he doesn’t play, City aren’t the same side. He’s massively important to them.
Wish we had a Fernandinho in our team.
Wish we had a Fernandinho in our team.
Absolute beast of a midfielder.
Mad how he’s become more physically dominant in his 30s......
Same as Valencia then?
Please remove yaya toure from that list. That is very disrespectful to say the least. It’s like we have forgoten how good he was minus the last two years of his career.
But yes you are correct on how valuable he is too city. It’s guardiolas fault though on not buying cover for him when injured.
Edit, I just checked the time stamp of the post. Still yaya toure minus the last two years when he lost all his stamina was a powerhouse.
Think we need to start thinking of 35+ as the new 30s. The game (and medical science In general) has moved on.
And yet somehow this two-man midfield can't even hold down a place in an average Brazil team with competition from someone like Paulinho, while Jorginho regularly sees twice as much of the ball. Maybe things are a bit more complicated than you're suggesting?
‘Medical science’ indeed.
Using international football as a yardstick makes little sense to me. I've watched Paulinho extensively last season in Barcelona, and as an individual player it is clear that he is nowhere near Fernandinho. Why Tite preferred Paulinho you'd probably have to ask him, it certainly isn't because he's the better player.
It's because he's the better performer, as was said by a Brazilian fan in the summer...
...following a string of comments from Arsenal, City and United fans...
Judging players based on how they perform based in one environment in one specific role makes no sense to me, personally. His performances for Brazil don't define him, but nor do his performances under Guardiola at City. Prior to that he was a good midfielder, but the hyperbole here would've been laughed at. Perhaps he has become a much better player under Guardiola, but you have to question why that doesn't translate at all to his performances for Brazil.
If he was the best DM in the world, a 2-man midfield, and whatever else we're now saying, the least you'd expect is for him to nail down a place. Many players don't play as well for the national team but there are very few cases where the best player in any position didn't at least play for his national team, and in all of those cases you could provide a reason for it. You can say you don't care about international performances, but that doesn't answer the question.
He has been great under Guardiola in a very specific role. To call someone the best in the world they need to perform to that high level under different conditions than under one manager in one team in one specific role, IMO. For whatever reason, he hasn't been able to. If you add into that, Guardiola was looking at someone like Jorginho to play the same role, I think it raises more questions. For the kind of football they play, it's possible Jorginho could be even more influential in that position but playing a different role.
My view is that playing under Guardiola is very demanding, but very rewarding - it elevated many players above their normal level for a short period of time. You need to be a good player to play in his teams, but he has made many good players look like elite players because of the coaching. Pedro is probably the first example of that. In a very limited, specific role he was talked about as among the best attackers around, yet he could never recreate those performances for Spain at the same time or for other managers. If you don't think performances for other teams are indicative of a players' quality that's cool. Personally, I do.
Fernandinho was bench for Casemiro, not because Paulinho. Only in specific moments Casemiro and Fernandinho would start in the same line up. Both are DM.
Jorginho was waiting to be called for Brazil for almost two years but Tite didn't want him. He is a passing DM but can't defend and Brazil play with attacking full backs.
That said Fernandinho scored a own goal against Belgium and is the main responsible for Brazil be eliminated in the wc.
I agree with you, Fernandinho is only useful for Brazil in a specific role where he's up against a better player, so he doesn't play for legitimate reasons. However Arbitrium is of the opinion that Fernandinho is not just a DM but a world class, two-man midfield, so he should be able to play Paulinho's role to quite a high level. He's played before as a box-to-box CM for City and was decent but not that great, which was kind of the point. If he was that good, and that well-rounded, it's odd that he's only ever performed at that level in this role in this team. Maybe it's not just about the individual player but the environment he's operating in?
Great post! It happens time and time again with players being assigned a specific level whether positive or negative regardless of how much evidence that whatever that level is is strictly linked to a particular environment. It stems from wanting to pigeon hole players evaluation wise to support an agenda most of the time regarding managers of course.
Sometimes it doesn't work out with the NT. Fernandinho has been outstanding for City. I'd have Jorginho as his backup rather than the other way around. Other than his quality on the ball, he is strong physically and defensively unlike Jorginho who appears as though a wind could blow over, and that's important in this role at City.
Crazy to think he is actually Man City's most important player despite all the other superstars they have.
That's a well thought out post with hardly anything to contest really. Especially that last paragraph about the specifics of playing in Guardiola's system.
Thing is, I literally couldn't care less about Fernandinho's performances with Brazil. I can't be arsed about my own NT to be honest, let alone any other. His performances for Brazil are obviously relevant if you want to paint a complete picture of a player, that's a given. Now I hardly care about Man City as a club either, but they play, IMO at least, a very attractive and well drilled style and taking into account that I enjoy watching quality football I found myself catching City's games more often than not. That's the only reason my perspective is skewered with regards to his performances.
@Brwned
That’s some expert level of putting words in someone’s mouth, bravo.
I wasn’t saying he’s a two man midfield though I understand why it came across as that.
I’ll rephrase and say simply that I think Fernandinho is much better in that role than Jorginho as he can do everything Jorginho can do except he also has the tenacity and interception ability of Allan. That make more sense?
It is strange that he can’t do it for Brazil though. Might just be as simple as him preferring to play for Guardiola than any of the national team managers.
That’s some expert level of putting words in someone’s mouth, bravo.
I wasn’t saying he’s a two man midfield though I understand why it came across as that.
I’ll rephrase and say simply that I think Fernandinho is much better in that role than Jorginho as he can do everything Jorginho can do except he also has the tenacity and interception ability of Allan. That make more sense?
It is strange that he can’t do it for Brazil though. Might just be as simple as him preferring to play for Guardiola than any of the national team managers.
I wouldn’t drop either of David Silva or Bernardo if I was Guardiola so where does he fit in?
He looked pretty ropey at Leicester too. Right now, he simply isn’t one of City’s three best midfielders.
But then how about Scholes? Played under one manager, one position, and pants with England NT.
@Brwned some excellent posts there and hard to disagree with most of it. Would you accept however that surely if he is capable of this level of performance under Pep (and let’s assume he was also able to carry out this level of performance in CL later stages and help them win the thing) that the argument can be put forward that Brazil are at fault for not unlocking this level of performance from him at National Level I.e. from a tactical perspective.
I think the general idea is that there are no fit for all systems, competition, environment, ... players. Obviously someone like Ronaldo or Messi are much less reliant on those things but it's all just a question of degrees. Players do not have a specific level but instead, a highest/lowest potential. Fernandinho might be one of those where the gap between his highest and lowest is a bit bigger than average. It doesn't however mean that when he is at his best, he is as good as almost anyone in that position for City. This is why a lot of transfers that do not take into consideration the profile of the player and only focus on their level in a specific environment fail.
He'd not play too many games if referees actually applied rules when judging his foulplay.
Of course and that is why Brwned is right in putting forward a rebuttal and arguing he’s not the best CDM in the world.
Any player who fails to perform at a certain level whether his fault or otherwise is rightfully going to be viewed with more suspicion than a player who is team independent and performs at all levels. Having said that the best player of the modern era is also someone that struggles hugely for his National side and a large reason for that is they’re just a bad fit for him from a tactical perspective - if Fernandinho played in a more possession orientated fast passing national side - he might excel in that environment.
But we should avoid getting into if buts and maybes. Other question we need to ask are who are his rivals at this moment in time and are any of them performing better based on current form?
I think he is the best performing DM currently. I put him on my PL team of the season so far and can't see anyone playing at the big clubs in Europe performing better. I think the resistance to calling someone the best or one of the best, is because it usually comes with the assumption that if only team x who is missing someone decent in that position just needs to buy them and at the level of performances can be transferable.
He's mediocre under pressure which was relatively non existent yesterday from Pool when City was deep. Also yesterday B Silva made a big effort dropping as deep as possible to be available for the defenders. He's cost City a number of times especially in big games making mistakes on the ball under pressure. Off the ball he's brilliant.
I don't get Brwned's post. Fernadninho was a great player before Guardiola. He was an amazing player at Shakhtar. When Juventus were playing against them, Lucarelli who was his teammate gave an interview saying Fernandinho was 'as good as Pirlo or any other midfielder he's seen, but is hidden in Ukraine'.
To put Jorginho that easily in his same breath actually annoys me. Because its so rare to combine phisicality and technique, and these cute players like Gundogan, Jorginho, etc have to pay their dues before they can be compared to Fernadninho who is winning silverware and is an important factor. With their deficiencies without the ball, I really doubt they will reach his level. This WC and past years have shown off ball play is 70% of the game right now. That's why we should cherish Pogba because he's physical and technical. Jorginho isn't half of what he is. I really doubt he will stay 5+ years in Premier League being a big factor like Fernan has.
To put Jorginho that easily in his same breath actually annoys me. Because its so rare to combine phisicality and technique, and these cute players like Gundogan, Jorginho, etc have to pay their dues before they can be compared to Fernadninho who is winning silverware and is an important factor. With their deficiencies without the ball, I really doubt they will reach his level. This WC and past years have shown off ball play is 70% of the game right now. That's why we should cherish Pogba because he's physical and technical. Jorginho isn't half of what he is. I really doubt he will stay 5+ years in Premier League being a big factor like Fernan has.
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Scholes started off as a striker, had probably his best season in the hole and ultimately was exceptional as a deep lying playmaker. The difference in football we played in '99 vs. '09 was pretty big too.
So he excelled in multiple positions in multiple styles. If not for that I think a lot more questions about him would be raised, and his international performances are a legitimate reason why comparisons to Zidane are laughed off by most non-United fans.
If Fernandinho was a world class box-to-box CM at City beforehand then it'd be a different conversation. But he wasn't. His time at Ukraine is hard to judge in the context of "world class", IMO. And his time for Brazil has provided a pretty conclusive answer.
Yep, for the most part. I don't think you can recreate the environment Guardiola creates in a national team. The micro-management that he's known for just isn't possible, so that deep understanding of the role is more difficult to attain. I think that matters for Fernandinho.
However you can get close to it and clearly there's huge differences in how they play. Brazil don't do anything to try and accommodate Fernandinho or to get the best out of him. That's a really common thing in international football and that's why to me it adds an extra dimension of information. Brazil have a role they want to fill with a limited number of players to fill it, and rather than adapting that role for the player they ask the player to adapt to that role. Even for elite players, national teams can create a role just for that player, but they can't choose the perfect group of supporting players in the way elite club teams do. It's a different challenge.
Casemiro isn't as good for Brazil as he is for Real Madrid because it's a slightly different role with a different style, but there's not a big difference. Fernandinho is a lot worse for Brazil because there's a much bigger difference in style and role, but also I'd guess because of the mental side of things. In any case, putting Fernandinho in what is still a fairly traditional defensive midfield role in an attacking team shouldn't lead to such a big drop off in performance if he is as good and well-rounded as being described here.
He's undeniably essential to this City team now, and if he is out for another month I'd expect them to drop a few more points. However it's easy to think that how they play now is exactly how Guardiola wants to play, or the best way they can play. The primary reason he'd have been looking at Jorginho is Fernandinho's age, of course. But we can all see that they play different roles, so it suggests to me Guardiola doesn't think the role Fernandinho plays now is an essential part of how his teams need to play.
Jorginho is more similar in style to Busquets or Alonso than Fernandinho is, and it's not unreasonable to think he would want someone like that as his defensive midfielder again. You lose a lot of Fernandinho's tenacity, and you'd think the other midfielders would have do more defensive work, but in his short time at Chelsea you can see what Jorginho offers on the other side. The idea that Fernandinho already does his role + a bit more is a big underestimation of some of the things Guardiola values most.
So stacking those two things together, I think calling him the best in the world is a serious overstatement.
If he gets away with it every match you have to start looking at as a skill.
The first foul he committed early in the game to set the tone was ridiculous. He had a great game but he should have been booked right then.
Lovren is 4th choice at this stage. He plays because Matip and gomez are injured.
Still too good for him mind.
Henderson after a poor season has been quite good recently. Fabinho last night showed what's what though. A level or two above the best Hendo has in his locker. I think he'll be cementing his place from here
I see. I really like that Gomez fella next to your giant- van dyke. But Lovren is one of the worst defenders in the premier league, and he talks too much. I guess he will be teased mercilessly for going the whole season unbeaten hahahaha. I don't know why Liverpool allow him so much freedom to say what he likes. Henderson- hmmm- if I was chasing a title he wouldn't play in my team
Early 30s isn't old ffs
Nah, got to be doping.
Easily MOTM yesterday. In the "documentary" it seemed like it was uncertainty about him getting a new deal. Should get a 2 year bumper contract if they've got any sense.
Such a dirty player. He never gets called for his cynical fouls.
It’s the Caf kouroux! Once a player has hit his late 20’s, his career is basically over!Early 30s isn't old ffs
Funnily enough, Casemiro always seemingly gets away with a few as well. Though IMO, Fernandinho has a much nastier side to him than Casemiro. Like that arm on Robertson’s head last night.
That’s just my opinion from the limited times I watch them, mind.
Can't say he's unsung, commentators are blowing him whenever I watch them.
He had a great season prior to moving to City. I remember a lot on here laughed at the price paid for a 28 year old Brazilian dude from the Ukrainian league who barely played for Brazil. But his CL campaign was no joke that year and you could see the potential if everything falls into place, which it has.