Care to elaborate? There is absolutely no similarity what so ever.
FC Bayern 17/18 discussion
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Seems to have the completely opposite personality. And Kovac has some experience as a club manager.
Kovac's real problem is that he cannot do any better than Bayern have been doing.
Bayern have won the Bundesliga and could well find themselves on course for an opportunity for yet another Heynckes treble as they are in the semi final of both the CL and the DFB Pokal.
So, in a sense, it's a risk as winning the Bundesliga next season would be expected of any manager of Bayern under normal circumstances, never mind the fact that Bayern have won the last six BLs. He has to deliver in Europe but there may be big changes across Europe. Teams that were nowhere last season are making a mark (Liverpool, Roma) whilst the oiligarchys [sic] at Man City and PSG will throw billions into their respective clubs.
But if there's one man who can deliver Bayern another Champions League then I've no doubt that Kovac is that guy.
Bayern have won the Bundesliga and could well find themselves on course for an opportunity for yet another Heynckes treble as they are in the semi final of both the CL and the DFB Pokal.
So, in a sense, it's a risk as winning the Bundesliga next season would be expected of any manager of Bayern under normal circumstances, never mind the fact that Bayern have won the last six BLs. He has to deliver in Europe but there may be big changes across Europe. Teams that were nowhere last season are making a mark (Liverpool, Roma) whilst the oiligarchys [sic] at Man City and PSG will throw billions into their respective clubs.
But if there's one man who can deliver Bayern another Champions League then I've no doubt that Kovac is that guy.
Many managerial jobs are called the impossible job but that applies even more so for Bayern these past few years. When a domestic double is treated like the minimum expectation, it leaves the CL as the only barometer for success and as we all know how unpredictable and not even a 100% measure of quality that competition is, I am not sure how much his description and work evaluation ought to be.
you underestimate the people on the board, they all played themselves at the highest level after all. Silverware is a yardstick of succes, of course it is, but also the way the team is playing.
Moyes.
Personally I mainly associate Frankfurt with a squad full of big feckers whose most prominent feature is their combativeness. So I can't see at all what gave Bayern's bosses the impression that Kovac would be a good fit for their club/squad, especially if they indeed renew with Ribery and Robben for another year, who given their age and egos are likely to be a liability in a pressing focused setup.
This also puts some of Kovac's more recent comments into a strange light, I recall him saying that there is no reason why he shouldn't coach Frankfurt next season and him bringing up the funeral of a little kid when reporters asked him about the Bayern rumours.
This also puts some of Kovac's more recent comments into a strange light, I recall him saying that there is no reason why he shouldn't coach Frankfurt next season and him bringing up the funeral of a little kid when reporters asked him about the Bayern rumours.
I really don't. I think Bayern are run by some proper football people which you can't say about many prestigious clubs in Europe. I agree that they would look for playing style as another measure of success, not necessarily for aesthetic reasons, but because they understand that playing good football is the only way a team can achieve long term success. You can fluke or be lucky with a CL win but you cannot be a regular fixture in the latter rounds year in year out if your football is not at a high level. My point was more about the overall narrative which largely comes from the media and the fans. Guardiola got you to play some of the best, if not the best football in Europe and yet for the neutral, the narrative was that he only did what everybody else does at Bayern. The problem with that is that narratives can be the most powerful thing when it comes to a manager's career and reputation.
Think the real problem is that Kovac just doesn't fit to Bayern's philosophy since van Gaal. They play possession oriented football and try to find technical solutions. Kovac's approach is the exact opposite. At least if the football he let his teams play has any meaning. It is not about him having no experience or titles but this appointment simply seems inconsequent and aligns well with the allegations that Hoeneß simply hires marionettes like Salihamdzic and Kovac. Tuchel would have been a much better fit but he would definitely question Hoeneß' authority. Even Heynckes as a close friend has a "geschmäckle". He is good but simply Uli's last resort and belongs to his clique. Hoeneß puts his own agenda bove the club's well being.
So much from an objective perspective. As a Bayern hater, I find it quite nice from Hoeneß that he wants to bring back the tension into the competition
Always makes me smile when Bayern screws up.
So much from an objective perspective. As a Bayern hater, I find it quite nice from Hoeneß that he wants to bring back the tension into the competition
Always makes me smile when Bayern screws up.Think the real problem is that Kovac just doesn't fit to Bayern's philosophy since van Gaal. They play possession oriented football and try to find technical solutions. Kovac's approach is the exact opposite. At least if the football he let his teams play has any meaning. It is not about him having no experience or titles but this appointment simply seems inconsequent and aligns well with the allegations that Hoeneß simply hires marionettes like Salihamdzic and Kovac. Tuchel would have been a much better fit but he would definitely question Hoeneß' authority. Even Heynckes as a close friend has a "geschmäckle". He is good but simply Uli's last resort and belongs to his clique. Hoeneß puts his own agenda bove the club's well being.
So much from an objective perspective. As a Bayern hater, I find it quite nice from Hoeneß that he wants to bring back the tension into the competition
No one knows what Kovac's approach at Bayern will be.
It won't be the same as his approach at Eintracht because he'll have a heck of a lot of cash with far greater depth of squad at Bayern.
There are no better options at the moment. He´ll be cheap. He´ll win the league title as a minimum. The mascot could do that given the opposition. Ribery/Robben play out their glorious careers. And if Kovac turns out to be good, even better. Otherwise Bayern have enough time to find a long-term coach and their long-term replacements of Robbery in cohesion with the new coach.
IMO Bayern have the best squad in the world. Unless Kovac is a complete idiot a la Moyes they should be okay.
I'm interested to see how they go about replacing some of their ageing players though. Coman is Ribery's replacement but who is the long term successor to Robben?
I'm interested to see how they go about replacing some of their ageing players though. Coman is Ribery's replacement but who is the long term successor to Robben?
Then what speaks for him? There is evidence that he can have success with destructive teams but nothing insists that he can teach his players "the Barca way". You don't hire a coach and expect him to play completely different tactics than at his previous teams. It's like appointing Mourinho and expecting tiki taka.
Kovac may prove me wrong but he doesn’t feel a Bayern coach.
To me Kovac’s appointment reflects a lack of planning. There was never a real succession plan for Ancelotti.
Heynckes coming back was a stroke of luck/favour. It is widely reported that as late as the end of winter the power brokers were hoping Jupp would change his mind and stay longer.
Just imagine Jupp had refused to return? There were literally no firm candidates in mind post Carlo. That is what I believe led to Kovac’s appointment. Isn’t Löw considering his options after the World Cup? Why not approach him?
To me Kovac’s appointment reflects a lack of planning. There was never a real succession plan for Ancelotti.
Heynckes coming back was a stroke of luck/favour. It is widely reported that as late as the end of winter the power brokers were hoping Jupp would change his mind and stay longer.
Just imagine Jupp had refused to return? There were literally no firm candidates in mind post Carlo. That is what I believe led to Kovac’s appointment. Isn’t Löw considering his options after the World Cup? Why not approach him?
Low ain't rated that highly
Tuchel was available and I'm sure Nagelsmann or Favre could've been bought out of their contracts by Bayern. All three of them may not have been former Bayern players, but at least their philosophies more or less fit Bayern's and unlike Kovac coaching in Europe and dealing with three competition wouldn't be entirely new for them. I reckon Frankfurt with their always outrun and outfight the opposition approach wouldn't have done too well with EL/CL football next season.
I'm sure given their experience and accomplishments Bayern's bosses see and know things that I'm to ignorant to understand, but at first glance this looks like a enormeous feck up and the press will tear them a new one if it doesn't work out.
I agree with this. There seems to be this idea that playing philosophy is linked to resources and that if certain managers just get better players and more cash, they can just go ahead and produce a certain type of football. The reality is that the preferences of coaches are most of the time defined very early in their careers. The reason they become good enough to be candidates for better positions is because they were totally committed to their ideals. They usually are incapable of doing something different because anything different requires an equal amount of commitment and because they develop too big of an ego to ever change.
I guess there are some general skills for managers. There are many brillant tacticians out there I believe but what makes the difference is their ability to teach these ideals to there players so that they actually fill the ideas with life and manifest them on the field. Communication, creating and choosing the right execise etc.
But possession oriented football is almost like science. People like van Gaal, Cruyff, Bielsa, Guardiola or Tuchel are absolutely obsessed with it. There are discussions about positioning, best general formations and so on. As far as I know, Guardiola was a pupil of Pekerman and Bielsea, Tuchel himself attended Guardiola's trainings during his sabbatical in order to observe his ways and had many private talks with him. A guy that never really were into these topics is most likely not going to become an expert in it during the few weeks he could possibly have for preparation between the seasons. Coaching is not like cooking, it is not like a manager has a recipe for every different style. Kovac has his approach and I doubt that it fits to Bayern's philosophy of the last 10 years or their squad.
At it is not like Kovac was a star for Bayern. He was a utility/squad player for two seasons at Bayern. There is problem so Bayern fans who do not remember him playing for them.
Gnabry.
Gnabry.
It seems like they were going to sign Malcom from Bordeaux but, it looks like that deal fell through.
A managers philosophy and playing style changes.
When Mourinho went to Chelsea from CL winning Porto there was never a word about his defensive approach. He went on to win the league twice with Chelsea accumulating the greatest number of points in the EPL. Indeed the term "parking the bus" was introduced to English football by Mourinho himself whilst criticising Tottenham in 2004.
Van Gaal?
Playing philosophy?
I wouldn't talk about that on a Man Utd website/forum.
Some managers (who have won next to nothing, like Tuchel) appear to have this halo around them. They've attended this course, spoke with this great manager, etc. .
I mean, we've all seen Guardiola in the past week. I've no doubt he's a great coach but his limitations at the very highest level have been exposed.
So less of the footballing snobbery.
There are great managers out there who didn't attend the University of Pep and they won't all turn out like Moyes.
How did you bring up Mourinho in a Bayern thread.
Read the post I was replying to
Yes, sometimes concepts change and managers go with the time. But that wasn't my point. You don't appoint a manager to play a style he has never proven to master. At none of his stations, Kovac has even shown any sign of being practiced in implementing possession oriented football. Hoeneß himself thinks that tactics is overrated. There is no "deeper intention" in it. Right now, he is breaking with the philosophy that brought Bayern back into Europe's elite because out of ignorance to modern developments.
As someone above said, there are managers who would suit much, much better with Tuchel being the most obvious one. But then there is also Nagelsmann, Favre or Löw. But those coaches would not back away in arguments with Hoeneß. It's no secret that he highly disliked van Gaal, was no fan of the Guardiola appointment, caused Sammer's departure and prevented both the appointments of Lahm and Tuchel. He wants to stick with his bavarian clique, doesn't want to give up total control and thus surrounds himself with old friends who hierarchically are clearly below him, owe him very much and won't stand up against him. He doesn't acknowledge that it were foreign influences and international transfers that actually helped Bayern to the position they are in currently.
Guess there are coming hard times for some players.
What do you mean "appointment of Lahm"? Was Lahm in the running for Bayern manager?
Doesn't matter. Van Gaal was the starting point of the developments that took Bayern back to Europe's elite. He implemented a conceptual approach, shaped many important players (Schweinsteiger, Müller, Robben) and since then there was continuity at Bayern. Every managerial decision was aligned towards a common goal and playing style. Since van Gaal took over, Bayern may have had occasionally weak periods but they played the same concept consistenty, similarly to Barcelona.
And the appointment of Kovac breaks with this continuity completely. Ancelotti was already a strange decision since he never played similarly but he had the recent CL speaking for him. But Kovac depicts a turning point that directly correlates with Hoeneß influence on the club.
Lahm was rumoured to be the replacement for Sammer as director of sports, if I remember correctly. I'm no Bayern fan so not really an expert, just repeat what I read elsewhere out of my memory. Allegedly, he turned the job down because of Hoeneß claiming too much authority or stuff like that. In the end, Hasan Salihamidzic got the job out of the blue. One of Hoeneß' favourites as a player. Doesn't seem really bright in interviews to say the least, has no records or reputation or anything and generally seems like a typical case of appointing someone because he is an ex player and not due to his expertise or competence.
These kind of decisions are totally different to those before Hoeneß' return. Sammer exemplarily worked for the DFB and was highly respected by everyone for his networks and knowledge. They also hired Michael Reschke who worked for us before that and had a reputation as being one of the best talent scouts in the business, having a legendary network. And, of course, Guardiola himself. Was really tiresome, everything they did seemed to have been thought through and you could barely find any weakness. Nowadays, more or less every single one of their decisions causes laughter at opposing fan camps.
The great thing about Bayern is that if a manager is not up to it the players will figure it out real quickly.
Be afraid Real Madrid! We are going to draw you 0 to 0
You have to hand it to Bayern. Compared with Europe's big spenders they don't spend much, could be said to play in a less competitive league, manage to hold onto their players and now have reached 7 semifinals in the last 9 seasons in champions league.
Of course they're not the most popular club for other reasons but unless somebody can enlighten me I do admire how they are run as a club
Of course they're not the most popular club for other reasons but unless somebody can enlighten me I do admire how they are run as a club
It'll be interesting seeing them trying to cheapskate their way to to replacing Robbery. So far it hasn't worked, but they look like they'll keep trying.
It would be great if Niko got the job. He's has a legendary status as a NT player but is underrated as a coach here cause of his unsuccessful career as a NT coach.. saying all that I get why Bayern fans would be wary of appointing him.
He had a short career there, how do Bayern fans here rate his brother Robert's time at the club?
He had a short career there, how do Bayern fans here rate his brother Robert's time at the club?
Why not? feck Bayern, I hope he fails miserably.Gonna be an interesting experiment if it happened. Hopefully he won't be their Moyes.
cheapskate? don't spend much? There is a sweet spot between pissing money around without a plan and cheapskating. Money is not really an object at Bayern if they are convinced that man, player or coach, is a 100% fit for the club. Neither Ancelotti nor Pep came cheap. Fighting off Real to keep Lewa isn't cheap.
Tuchel or Favre are good coaches but not without dents in their career that made it doubtful they would be able to function at Bayern in the end. Don't see much difference experience/having-proven-himself-at-top-level between Kovac, Nagelsmann or Hasenhüttl.
If there had been a man who was an obvious "super solution" on the market, Bayern would have hired him,
So far, the press is friendly. Allegedly, Heynckes right hand man Peter Herrmann will join Kovacs team, that's a huge plus.
Gnabry.
Gnabry is an option, no one is saying he is the one and only next winger, no matter what. No one is saying Bayern is doomed forever and ever to play with 2 wingers of the Rib/Rob mould, either.
Gnabry will be given a test run next season but no one said "our planning is complete".
There will be transfers in the summer. Defense looks well sorted from where i stand with Alaba/Boateng/Hummels/Süle/Kimmich/Bernat. Midfield is packed with top players, even if Vidal would leave there wouldn't be a gaping hole. I reckon hiring a top level attacker who can play left or right is not unlikely.
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Has to be Douglas Costa. Guy is a beast!
I'm not sure if I'm laughing with you or at you.
Also, I'm still holding that we should be all over Timo Werner. He's super fast with the ball, he can play right winger and CF, and on top he's German, he checks literally every box that our board could think of.
Well Kovac turned Frankfurt into a possession team since the winter break. Against Hoffenheim and Nagelsmann last week they had 64 % possession and all games combined over 53 %. After the defensive minded last season and beginning of this season he really showed how to progress to be a possession team which tends to attack over the wings. Nagelsmann for example turned Hoffenheim into a non possession team over the last week but both are getting results with their "new" style of play. Although Hoeneß was the driving force behind the Guardiola signing and i think the Sammer departure was based on health issuses. Still i also think that Hoeness plan of appointing former players to key positions regardless of their experience and his problems with sharing the control are problems for Bayern. His ignorance of tactics and modern training methods of football and all the other "new" stuff is just ridiculous and can cause a major stepback in development. The problem is you wont see this too fast as the league is too soft.
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