Fantasy Draft Final - antohan v Brwned

[antohan]

TACTICS CHANGE (@7-6 5mins into 2nd Half)

As we enter the second half, I have a slender advantage (7-6). Looks like the big names Brwned has upfront are doing the trick and absolutely no one on here has ever said a good thing about Simonsen, so guess I’m alone in rating him.

Thus, a change to lock it up at the back, reinforce my midfield control, while keeping a fearsome attack: Simonsen off, Schuster on

• Breitner moves to a left wingback role he will be very comfortable in as a World Cup winning free-roaming leftback and box-to-box midfielder. He can support Briegel by being the first line of defence in handling Rummenigge and will keep Kaltz conservative, bombing forward when in possession.

• Gerets stays in a more conservative fullback role keeping tabs on Blokhin throughout. If that fails, there’s always McGrath. Demyanenko is going nowhere, as Boniek is now roaming across the frontline (as ever) but mostly on the right with that defensive/peg-back duty in mind.

• Passarella adopts his libero role to cut off Zico. As any libero would, he can drop back into the centre of defence if that’s the more desirable positioning, but he has Zico as his main remit.

• Both Briegel and McGrath are onto Sánchez, with either covering if their first line of defence has been taken out, but the other staying firmly on Sánchez despite there being no crosses at all servicing him.

• In the middle I now have two outstanding all-round midfielders controlling things, using their mouthwatering passing range and one-touch play to link up with each other, Platini, Breitner, or Boniek and Elkjaer upfront.

• Platini is utterly loose and is his usual self, playmaking and scoring for fun, with his legendary partner Boniek and Elkjaer offering the kind of movement and options that bring defences into disarray.

PLAYER PROFILES

 

[antohan]

In case anyone is wondering, it's not complicated:

Gerets and McGrath are the same as in a back four, Passarella is in his element with a traditional libero role and it is only Briegel -who played LCB in a back three for Germany 86- having to communicate and work effectively with Breitner to nullify Brwned's German flank. If those two can't do it, no one can!

 

[United Fan 101]

This is on a knife edge, really hard to decide. Will vote shortly.

 

[antohan]

This is on a knife edge, really hard to decide. Will vote shortly.

Bear in mind Zico is not being granted the freedom of the pitch, while Platini is surprised to find himself completely on the loose.

 

[United Fan 101]

Bear in mind Zico is not being granted the freedom of the pitch, while Platini is surprised to find himself completely on the loose.

Still having a look, comparing and contrasting various ideas and hypotheticals. Still can't bring myself to vote one way or the other.

 

[Brwned]

No-one else would have created a new thread, it's pretty much only you that makes changes in the first place! And the change is done, it was done before you replied to your own thread...

 

[United Fan 101]

How do you plan to nullify Platini, Brwned?

 

[antohan]

No-one else would have created a new thread, it's pretty much only you that makes changes in the first place! And the change is done, it was done before you replied to your own thread...

And leave myself wide open for eight hours? I've had my share of wake-ups to find the game changed completely.

I hadn't seen it done when I bumped it or when I replied, will delete it now.

Edit: seems it's done

 

[Polaroid]

As we enter the second half, I have a slender advantage (7-6). Looks like the big names Brwned has upfront are doing the trick and absolutely no one on here has ever said a good thing about Simonsen, so guess I’m alone in rating him.

Thus, a change to lock it up at the back, reinforce my midfield control, while keeping a fearsome attack: Simonsen off, Schuster on

• Breitner moves to a left wingback role he will be very comfortable in as a World Cup winning free-roaming leftback and box-to-box midfielder. He can support Briegel by being the first line of defence in handling Rummenigge and will keep Kaltz conservative, bombing forward when in possession.

• Gerets stays in a more conservative fullback role keeping tabs on Blokhin throughout. If that fails, there’s always McGrath. Demyanenko is going nowhere, as Boniek is now roaming across the frontline (as ever) but mostly on the right with that defensive/peg-back duty in mind.

• Passarella adopts his libero role to cut off Zico. As any libero would, he can drop back into the centre of defence if that’s the more desirable positioning, but he has Zico as his main remit.

• Both Briegel and McGrath are onto Sánchez, with either covering if their first line of defence has been taken out, but the other staying firmly on Sánchez despite there being no crosses at all servicing him.

• In the middle I now have two outstanding all-round midfielders controlling things, using their mouthwatering passing range and one-touch play to link up with each other, Platini, Breitner, or Boniek and Elkjaer upfront.

• Platini is utterly loose and is his usual self, playmaking and scoring for fun, with his legendary partner Boniek and Elkjaer offering the kind of movement and options that bring defences into disarray.

PLAYER PROFILES

I think that overall it is a good move to have Schuster come on for Simonsen, both in terms of narrowing the quality gap and tactical adjustments (strengthening the midfield against an opposition with superior offence). The flipside is that it comes at the expense of the offence with one less forward. Another implication is that it may give one of Brwned's fullbacks more opportunities to advance. How would Brwned interpret the new dynamics of the game? Overall though, I would say it is a good move by Antohan and he has made my decision more difficult

 

[United Fan 101]

I really can't decide, may have to abstain from voting unless I see something remarkably amazing that is so subtle and unapparent that I have totally missed it to swing me one way or the other. Sorry guys, just cannot split it at the moment.

 

[antohan]

I really can't decide, may have to abstain from voting unless I see something remarkably amazing that is so subtle and unapparent that I have totally missed it to swing me one way or the other. Sorry guys, just cannot split it at the moment.

No worries mate, I've had my fair share of those games where I just can't make up my mind

 

[Polaroid]

Bear in mind Zico is not being granted the freedom of the pitch, while Platini is surprised to find himself completely on the loose.

Putting Passarella on Zico is a double-edged sword though with the downside being
1) if he stands off Zico, Zico will wreck havoc. If he closes down Zico, he could be drawn out and his lack of recovery pace might be exposed
2) if Kaltz advances and Briegel is drawn to Rummenigge, it leaves McGrath against Hugo Sanchez and Gerets against Blokhin - one on one situations which Brwned would fancy

 

[antohan]

Putting Passarella on Zico is a double-edged sword though with the downside being
1) if he stands off Zico, Zico will wreck havoc. If he closes down Zico, he could be drawn out of position and his lack of recovery pace might be exposed
2) if Kaltz advances and Briegel is drawn out to Rummenigge, it leaves McGrath against Hugo Sanchez and Gerets against Blokhin - one on one situations which Brwned would fancy

It's better than Zico being completely ignored in the hole though, as Platini is, why not picking on that?

Your number 2 scenario is plausible. Demyanenko would be insane to venture forward but Kaltz is bound to every now and then, which is exactly the scenario I was thinking about when qualifying that Passarella as a libero should be able to identify when it is best to just drop back.

Do consider the counter to that: Elkjaer drops into Kaltz territory, dragging Vierchowod with him (excellent cover, by all means) and leaving Boniek and Platini upfront v Scirea and Demyanenko. I would fancy that more than the one on one's you described and in Passarella, Falcao and Schuster I have the ideal passing range to trigger that counter quickly and effectively.

Giampiero Boniperti, Juve’s president during that era, recalled: “They were good friends off the pitch, and they had a wonderful understanding on it. When Platini received the ball, Boniek was already off. And when Platini was making a pass, you knew it would be pinpoint, and when Boniek was running, you knew nobody could catch him.”

“There are players with bigger reputations, but very few players better than Boniek. He is too good to be restricted to one position”

“He’s a totally unique player, the best of his kind in the world”

“The Capocannoniere will go to whoever has Boniek as a team-mate”

 

[Gio]

And leave myself wide open for eight hours? I've had my share of wake-ups to find the game changed completely.

In both of our games I was leading comfortably before heading to bed, then woke up and found out you'd stormed into an insurmountable overnight lead. Not bitter, honest.

Agree with Polaroid's comments. What's the expectations on Passarella with the ball Antohan?

 

[Polaroid]

It's better than Zico being completely ignored in the hole though, as Platini is, why not picking on that?

Your number 2 scenario is plausible. Demyanenko would be insane to venture forward but Kaltz is bound to every now and then, which is exactly the scenario I was thinking about when qualifying that Passarella as a libero should be able to identify when it is best to just drop back.

You have already stated the argument re Platini and United Fan 101 has already asked Brwned for his response, does it add any value for me to reiterate?
Passarella is a great defender, the second best in this competition but tasking him to watch Zico is a double-edged sword as it could put him in a potentially vulnerable position where his one major weakness could be exposed - that of being the slowest defender on the pitch. Is there no other alternative?

Do consider the counter to that: Elkjaer drops into Kaltz territory, dragging Vierchowod with him (excellent cover, by all means) and leaving Boniek and Platini upfront v Scirea and Demyanenko. I would fancy that more than the one on one's you described and in Passarella, Falcao and Schuster I have the ideal passing range to trigger that counter quickly and effectively.

Brwned should answer this - it is tied to the question of how he plans to cope with Platini

 

[antohan]

In both of our games I was leading comfortably before heading to bed, then woke up and found out you'd stormed into an insurmountable overnight lead. Not bitter, honest.

I know! That's why I picked on the whole Bello di Notte thing

Likewise, I would go to bed with the "insurmountable lead" and wake up finding it had been narrowed during your morning

Agree with Polaroid's comments. What's the expectations on Passarella with the ball Antohan?

The thing is, the counter to Kaltz going up is even more dangerous, which should result in Kaltz being told to stay back after a couple of scares (if not goals).

At that point I'm comfortable at the back and control the midfield so Passarella has a relatively easy job as libero, just cutting off and intercepting (his heading was far superior to Zico's). If Zico drops too deep then he falls under Falcao and Schuster's remit of course. He is not going all the way to the halfway line, just ensuring Zico is not left in acres of space behind their backs.

Re: Passarella "with the ball". I don't expect him to venture forward too much, just distribute to the awesome threesome ahead of him or place a quick outball for a counter if Brwned has committed fullbacks and there are gaps to be exploited.

I don't expect him to charge forward with ball at feet. I don't need him upfield for freekicks, Platini will bang those in. He would certainly go up to have a shot at heading in corners or indirect free kicks though.

 

[antohan]

You have already stated the argument re Platini and United Fan 101 has already asked Brwned for his response, does it add any value for me to reiterate?

I wouldn't mind you investing your knowledge on how to plug holes into Brwned and highlight all the horrible things Platini could do to him

I've been on the backfoot having to argue my case throughout, could sure do with others pointing out what I may not have picked up or emphasised enough!

Passarella is a great defender, the second best in this competition but tasking him to watch Zico is a double-edged sword as it could put him in a potentially vulnerable position where his one major weakness could be exposed - that of being the slowest defender on the pitch. Is there no other alternative?

You make it sound like he was snail-paced. He is slower in a pretty pacey set of defenders, granted, but I reckon pace and acceleration are most important in the CB/flank-covering roles. His reaction was very good though, just his acceleration which would be a notch below, but his superb reading of the game and positioning make up for that notch. He had no problem dealing with Rep and van de Kerkof in 78, even when Tarantini left him to deal with his flank as well, and those two were significantly faster than him, or Zico for that matter.

I already explained some of my reasons / how it would work to Gio above. Adding to that, he is by far the most adept at libero (he was nicknamed Kaiser for this very reason) and his heading is far superior to Zico's so he should be able to intercept most balls to him. As a disciplined defender and organiser, he is also best suited to bear the burden/challenge of making the decisions you are pointing out (close down/stand off/drop back, etc).

I'm not overly worried, I was more worried when we both had Zico and Platini left on their own and leaving Zico with less service and room to operate was one major reason for the switch.

 

[antohan]

1 vote for every 100 views... we are a bunch of old farts guys

 

[Gio]

It's getting dark, Il Bello di Notte is coming out on the hunt

Boniperti added of Boniek: “He was a truly magnificent player. He was so fast, his movement was very clever, he was very skilful, a great passer, could score with his right, his left and his head, and was very brave

FIFA Classic Player - Boniek

I daresay with the amount of bumming you've given Boniek this tournament, his ego will have inflated to the point he won't be passing to anybody.

 

[antohan]

I daresay with the amount of bumming you've given Boniek this tournament, his ego will have inflated to the point he won't be passing to anybody.

He is one of my all-time favourites though. As stated before, he was the player I hoped Giggs would become before all his injuries took their toll, and that is saying something.

Hugely underrated, he was absolutely gobsmackingly sensational and had me glued to the TV every weekend waiting for Juve's game (Platini also had something to do with that of course, but it was Boniek that got my pulse racing when he got the ball).

 

[antohan]

WTF? Had completely forgotten about this with all the RVP excitement. Two votes out of nowhere.

Someone go on and untie it pronto, only 8 minutes to go.

 

[antohan]

Can't believe I answered every single question thrown at me, Brwned hasn't laid out any plan for dealing with Platini and yet he makes up a three point gap.

I blame van Persie getting everyone's attacking cocks out!

 

[Brwned]

How do you plan to nullify Platini, Brwned?

Much like Passarella stepping up as a libero to take out Zico I could very easily do the same with Scirea on Platini, except of course it would be even more effective given how well Scirea knows his game and the relative lack of attackers I'll be facing. Depending on how the game pans out it's inevitable Scirea will step up to take Platini on anyway, but I'm confused about antohan's midfield set up. Schuster, Platini and Falcao weren't renowned defensive players (organised and intelligent as Falcao was) and they'd find it difficult to stop Ardiles' and Neeskens' trademark dynamic bursts from deep. If Passarella's taking Zico out of the game he's leaving my two other midfielders the run of the game, while still leaving just 4v3 in attack. I don't have any specific gameplan to take out Platini, if I had a man-marker like Gentile then I'd happily have adjusted my gameplan but I don't feel the need here. My team's confident in how they play the game and how they'll cope with the opposition, we're not moving everyone about to nullify the opposition, we're leaving that to them while Rummenigge, Blokhin and Hugo Sanchez are happily running riot up front. Perhaps it's a chaotic, unbalanced attack but the moves are flowing and the goals are always there.

Can't believe I answered every single question thrown at me, Brwned hasn't laid out any plan for dealing with Platini and yet he makes up a three point gap.

I blame van Persie getting everyone's attacking cocks out!

All part of the plan. My team does the work for me you see.

 

[United Fan 101]

Tied game.

 

[Gio]

I feel you left Breitner with too much to do dealing with Rummenige and a talented over-lapper with precise delivery in Kaltz. And that was the side of the midfield where Neeskens would have the competitive edge over Schuster.

 

[antohan]

That's a bit friggin' late to reply, but he gave you the vote anyway.

Completely unexpected that. It was sitting at 10-8 when I left for a meeting about 4 hours ago and still there 20 minutes ago or so.

You do realise Scirea coming out to deal with Platini leaves a big hole in the centre of defence for Boniek to steal in? The same wouldn't hold with Passarella picking up Zico.

Anyway, how the hell do we sort this draw out now?

 

[Brwned]

Leave it to Polaroid to have the deciding vote.

 

[antohan]

I feel you left Breitner with too much to do dealing with Rummenige and a talented over-lapper with precise delivery in Kaltz. And that was the side of the midfield where Neeskens would have the competitive edge over Schuster.

Could have commented on that earlier, so could United Fan... Don't see the point in leaving the voting stale for hours on end and then completely changing the picture at the end with set ideas that have been there all along.

Never mind, I was fully aware you and Polaroid were holding out until the end so it was always in the cards.

 

[antohan]

Leave it to Polaroid to have the deciding vote.

I had thought about leaving the decision to whoever hasn't voted from the other managers, but that's Pol and Nani, which could end up a draw anyway.

Nani hasn't been around at all, so happy to go with that.

 

[Gio]

Could have commented on that earlier, so could United Fan... Don't see the point in leaving the voting stale for hours on end and then completely changing the picture at the end with set ideas that have been there all along.

Never mind, I was fully aware you and Polaroid were holding out until the end so it was always in the cards.

I didn't have a proper look at your changes until this evening. After all, it's better to make a rational and evidence-based choice. Had you kept the original formation, I probably would have not voted at all because it was too tight to call.

 

[antohan]

Anyhow, gotta go again but with all said and done, a couple of points:

1. I was most worried about Blokhin's flank, which was the main reason to position Boniek there and ensure there was no scope for Demyanenko to get adventurous

2. I do think Kaltz would have to stay back or the counter via Elkjaer dropping into that wide space would be deadly if Vierchowod didn't cover, or via Platini-Boniek if he did and they were left facing Scirea and Demyanenko (which in itself adressed Gio's point but somehow people still saw Kaltz attacking)

3. I honestly didn't see Sánchez as a threat at all with no crosses coming in and him not being one to drop deep and create his own chances or play one-twos with Zico. So much so that, ridiculous as it may sound (and stupid "marketing-wise") I did several times think Brwned would be more dangerous with Coppell out wide and Rummenigge in the centre. Rummenigge did have the skillset to drop deep, link up with Zico and run at my defence in a very dangerous way which Sánchez simply didn't offer.

Although I rate Gerets higher than Kaltz individually (and I prefer my FBs being proficient CBs so they can switch to back three), my overall best side from this game would not be far off from Pol's ratings (which overall are pretty spot on bar the 2-3 differences in opinion raised).

Once you consider the benefit of both fullbacks being familiar with each other:

Reckon Passarella would make a better libero, while Scirea makes a better sweeper. Here I would have Scirea as a CB.

If it were about putting together the top side from the draft overall it would be the same, except that I would place Gentile at RB, allowing for a defensive trio to be formed and Breitner roaming further up.

Either way, that would be some XI!!!

 

[antohan]

I didn't have a proper look at your changes until this evening. After all, it's better to make a rational and evidence-based choice. Had you kept the original formation, I probably would have not voted at all because it was too tight to call.

Bugger!!!! If yesterday was anything to go by I had both you and Pol voting for Brwned.

I do actually like the look of the final tactics. I had them in mind before but wondered whether people wouldn't just find it all a bit convoluted (it actually is quite simple and effective IMO) so opted for starting the game on the same basis and seeing where that took us.

My reasoning last night was most considered votes from people weighing stuff up would be gone and from there on it was bound to be a straight big name fight where Brwned's front three would slaughter me.

And I still don't see how on earth Brwned can get away with Platini being on the loose or a big Scirea-shaped hole being left at the back.

Oh well...

Off to see the Batman movie with the wife, I promised I would be away from the caf once this finished... until the new season begins...

She thinks football starts in September

 

[Polaroid]

I was hoping I do not have to vote because it is a very tough call - both managers built fabulous teams showcasing the best talent of this generation and fought an absolutely thrilling final that ebbed and flowed with tactical jousts. Brwned had the initial advantage with his superior quality upfront but I held off voting because this match had the potential to offer plenty of subtleties in analysis and tactical adjustments. Antohan has put in admirable effort fighting his case and succeeded in making my decision more difficult. Pardon me for taking more time to think this over.

 

[samabachan]

Wow, this is the equivalent of fanfiction or something. Am I the only person who finds this really, REALLY weird?

 

[antohan]

Wow, this is the equivalent of fanfiction or something. Am I the only person who finds this really, REALLY weird?

Wrong thread to make that point

I found them fantasy threads bizarre until I got caught up by a random game where a couple of favourite players of mine were involved.

It's all about the process. You list your favourite players, plan your draft out and keep revisiting your strategy (probably one of the most fun parts), then games start which is mostly banter and a few punches under the belt here and there and the prospect of improving your team as you go along. You also get to learn more about some players you probably had never heard of before.

It's good fun, but I guess you have to be involved and familiar with the players to enjoy it.

I have bugger all idea what Werewolf is about, I see many are totally engrossed with it but have no clue what it is. Clearly there must be some fun in it though. I guess. Or maybe you are right and it's just weird.

 

[Brwned]

It is weird, but it's a way for me to discuss some of the older players which wouldn't have been possible otherwise. I'd never heard of Bettega before and without this I don't think I ever would have heard of him at any point, but I'm glad I got the chance to. Great player. Could say the same for so many others. At the end of the day this is a forum for football discussion and this achieves that goal better than most threads on redcafe. Particularly in the summer.

Werewolf must be 100x weirder though.

 

[samabachan]

Wrong thread to make that point

I found them fantasy threads bizarre until I got caught up by a random game where a couple of favourite players of mine were involved.

It's all about the process. You list your favourite players, plan your draft out and keep revisiting your strategy (probably one of the most fun parts), then games start which is mostly banter and a few punches under the belt here and there and the prospect of improving your team as you go along. You also get to learn more about some players you probably had never heard of before.

It's good fun, but I guess you have to be involved and familiar with the players to enjoy it.

I have bugger all idea what Werewolf is about, I see many are totally engrossed with it but have no clue what it is. Clearly there must be some fun in it though. I guess. Or maybe you are right and it's just weird.

Fair dos mate, cant say fairer than that

Guess its just really not my thing. I still find it really weird though!

Edit to add - i did play warhammer for a year or two as a youngun, and guess this reminds me a bit of that. Your puskas rolls a 6 and kills my moore, so i bring on my beckenbauer from the reinforcement roster and it destroys your platini!

 

[antohan]

Fair dos mate, cant say fairer than that

Guess its just really not my thing. I still find it really weird though!

Much better than spending the last month reading pages and pages of likely formation depending on the 100 players we may sign. Even distracts you from twitter rumours

 

[antohan]

I was hoping I do not have to vote because it is a very tough call - both managers built fabulous teams showcasing the best talent of this generation and fought an absolutely thrilling final that ebbed and flowed with tactical jousts. Brwned had the initial advantage with his superior quality upfront but I held off voting because this match had the potential to offer plenty of subtleties in analysis and tactical adjustments. Antohan has put in admirable effort fighting his case and succeeded in making my decision more difficult. Pardon me for taking more time to think this over.

No worries mate.

Alternatively, I've just had an absolutely cracking idea:

Brwned lists his five peno takers and I list mine. We agree on the ordering and then someone willing to handle the suspense (not Zen who did a lot of work to post a decider online which no one could get onto in time to watch it ) runs this list on random.org

SCORES (xodd number)
MISSES (xodd number)

I would actually leave the number of misses to the storyteller so that missing two doesn't sound like the end (it could be 5 misses).

We then go through the suspense of each run-up and the agony of penalties!!!

YAAAY!

Has to be tomorrow though as I'm finally off to the cinema now.

Sambachan, piss off, I know it's weird

 

[Polaroid]

Antohan has tasked Passarella with Zico and Brwned has assigned Platini to Scirea, both managers have gone for the jugular
That is a double-edged sword which is not without its risk - a defender stepping up to press an attacker between the lines/in the hole inevitably opens up space behind for other attackers to exploit. Both Scirea and Passarella are excellent readers of the game but Passarella's relative lack of recovery pace means he is taking on a greater risk compared to Scirea. It also helps that Scirea has the fastest defender to cover behind him in Vierchowod. Scirea has another relative advantage over Passarella in that he is defending against an attacker whom he has been training daily with (element of surprise and unpredictability suits attackers, stability and familiarity suits defenders)

However, it will not be fair to say that Passarella is going to get caught out but Scirea isn't. Lets assume parity for the time being and consider two scenarios where either both defenders get caught out or both do not.
If both defenders do not get caught out, then well and sound. Lets envision the flipside where where both defenders get caught out

Scirea is caught out and Platini has the chance to thread the ball through. Vierchowod safely marshals Elkjaer but there is a potential opening via Boniek who is up against Demyanenko.

Passarella is caught out and Zico has the chance to thread the ball through. McGrath safely marshals Sanchez but there are potential openings via Rummenigge who is up against Briegel and Blokhin who is up against Gerets

Considering all these, if I must choose one over another, then Brwned just nicks it. Sorry Antohan