Fantasy Draft Final - antohan v Brwned

[Brwned]

Team antohan

Spoiler

Back 5: stronger individuals across the board

• Scirea and Passarella excelled as liberos, but Daniel’s passing range and goal contribution is superior
  
• Brwned will tell you about his Italian CB pair, German & Soviet flanks. That Italian pair shipped 6 in 4 at WC86. Kaltz scored the most own goals ever in the Bundesliga. Demyanenko played with Blokhin as a striker

Central midfield pair: Falcao and Breitner offer more than Ardiles and Neeskens. Solid defensively, the best DLP in the draft, more assists and goals. There's a signific ant difference in overall quality


Front four: Brwned’s never played a single minute of football together

• Platini-Boniek was arguably the most fruitful and devastating partnerships in this era
  
• I’ve picked Elkjaer over Kempes to recreate his Danish association with Simonsen. Both mainstays for Piontek’s great side
  
• The front three provide the sort of movement upfront which Platini could exploit with his inch-perfect passing and space for him to steal in and grab the winner

Don’t make the mistake of just adding scoring records

• Sánchez played in a dominant Real side which won La Liga 5 seasons in a row. Everywhere else he was a 1 in 2 striker

• Rummenigge was the most complete CF in the era. Could certainly play wide, but his effectiveness and goal record from there would be no better than Simonsen

• Rummenigge is up against a left flank which will know everything about him: Breitner and Briegel from Germany and Passarella from Inter. His physicality was an important asset, but the steamroller from Palatinate will nullify that

• Zico was a great player, but Platini is the best from this era, and is playing with a proven partner who helped him top score three seasons in a row against Serie A catenaccio sides, not the regional Brazilian cup sides Pelé scored 1000 goals against

All things considered, it will be a tough game but my stronger creative platform and proven partnerships upfront weigh in heavily to secure the result

Starting Formation

Spoiler

Looks like the big names Brwned has upfront are doing the trick despite them never having played together. No one on here seems to rate Simonsen as I do

Thus, a change to lock it up at the back, reinforce my midfield control, while keeping a fearsome attack: Simonsen off, Schuster on

• Breitner moves to left wingback. A WC winning free-roaming leftback and box-to-box midfielder, he will be comfortable. He can support Briegel by being the first line of defence in handling Rummenigge and keeps Kaltz conservative, bombing forward when in possession

• Gerets stays conservative keeping tabs on Blokhin throughout. If that fails, on to McGrath. Demyanenko is going nowhere, as Boniek is now roaming across the frontline (as ever) but mostly on the right with that defensive/pegback duty in mind

• Passarella adopts his libero role to cut off Zico. As any libero would, he can drop back into the centre of defence if that’s required, but he has Zico as his main remit

• Both Briegel and McGrath are onto Sánchez, with either covering if their first line of defence has been taken out, but the other staying firmly on Sánchez despite there being no crosses feeding him

• It's not complicated: Gerets and McGrath are the same as in a back four, Passarella in a traditional libero role and it is only Briegel -who played LCB in a back three for Germany 86- having to communicate and work effectively with Breitner to nullify Brwned's German flank. If those two can't do it, no one can!

• In the middle I have two outstanding all-round midfielders controlling things, using their mouthwatering passing range and one-touch play to link up with each other, Platini, Breitner, or Boniek and Elkjaer upfront

• Platini is utterly loose and is his usual self, playmaking and scoring for fun, with his legendary partner Boniek and Elkjaer offering the kind of movement and options that bring defences into disarray

• Platini-Boniek will work seamlessly, arguably the most devastating partnership from this era at Juventus

PLAYER PROFILES

Current Formation:

Team Brwned

Goals

(Ignoring records in Polish, Belgian, Brazilian or Soviet leagues, although of course they're in my favour with Zico and Blokhin regular top scorers unlike Elkjaer and Boniek)

Simonsen, Elkjaer, Boniek and Platini

Spoiler

Simonsen: 46 goals in 102 games for Monchengladbach between 74-77, his best record over a three year period doesn't even reach 1 in 2.
Elkjaer: 38 in 69 for Denmark, and if we're being generous we can say at his peak he scored 13 in 19 over a three year period in his international career (4 in 8 WC qualifers)
Boniek: 24 in 80 for Poland, almost 1 in 3.
Platini: 82 goals in 139 games for Juve between 82-85.

190 goals in 390 games, averaging a goal every 2.25 games with their best periods taken into account.

Rummenigge, Hugo Sanchez, Blokhin and Zico

Spoiler

Rummenigge: 82 goals in 102 games between 79-82.
Hugo Sanchez: 114 goals in 145 games between 87-90.
Blokhin: 12 goals in 25 European matches between 72-75.
Zico: 16 goals in 20 Copa Libertadores matches between 80-83.

224 goals in 292 games. Averaging a goal every 1.3 games.

Perhaps I've shaped these stats to suit me better in the way antohan's produced his facts, but there's only so much I can manipulate these facts. My team outscores him here by 34 goals in over 100 games less...that's fairly conclusive.

Overall

Do Ardiles, Neeskens and Zico lack the creativity and skill to provide in the way that Breitner, Zavarov and Schuster did? I don't think so. And with Demyanenko and Kaltz providing plenty of width with completely contrasting styles - Demyanenko's short passing interchanges and Kaltz's long range passing and crossing - as far as I'm concerned there's no shortage of goals. And then you've got Scirea, the best defender in the draft by a margin (no matter what antohan tells you about Passarella's goals)...

Does he completely dominate the midfield? First thing's first my midfield is without question more competitive, so there'll be no domination. He'll certainly have more control with Falcao perhaps being the only player of this period who could dictate the pace of the game from that position, and even more goal threat with Breitner in there, but he'll be up against a high-tempo pressing game of Neeskens and Ardiles and combined they provide a stronger defensive and competitive contribution than he's capable of. He'll have more control but my midfield is still getting plenty of the ball and using it very ambitiously, looking to catch his defence off guard as they're desperately struggling to deal with the pace and directness of my front three.

My back four on the other hand is dealing with Elkjaer and Simonsen relatively well, particularly with Vierchowod enjoying the 1v1 against Elkjaer matching him in pace and strength thus nullifying his entire attacking route through the middle. Kaltz isn't enjoying facing up to Boniek but with Scirea backing him up it becomes much more manageable.

Team Summary

Spoiler

A free-flowing front three; Blokhin equally comfortable pulling out wide and going on mazy, Giggs-esque solo runs or drifting into central positions and involving himself in quick, technical, intelligent build-up; Rummenigge equally comfortable running at the defence from deep and causing havoc or pushing right up top and getting on the end of anything played into the box and both very influential in the build-up. The predatory instincts of Hugo Sanchez combined with the pace and dribbling of Blokhin and the dribbling and all-round goal threat of Rummenigge makes a lethal combination.

Leading the midfield is Zico, a player who many consider the best player they've seen aside from Maradona. A player who scored over 30 goals in 8 of his 11 full seasons with Flamengo between '73-'83, from midfield. A player who scored at a rate of more than two goals every 3 games for Brazil with 52 goals in 72 games. And that's just his goals, just watch how he took apart Liverpool's midfield without needing to score. With Neeskens in midfield the team will never lack energy, bite, intelligence or goal threat (in '74 he scored 5 goals in 7 games in the WC and 15 in 31 league games for Ajax, and later 7 in 10 in the Uefa Cup for Barcelona in '76). Add in even more energy, intelligence and some silky dribbling skills from Ossie Ardiles and it makes a formidable midfield.

The defence is made up of Demyanenko, key player of the great USSR and Dynamo Kyiv sides of the 80s that reached the Euro '88 final and won 5 league titles in a decade (more than any other team in Soviet history) respectively; Vierchowod, Champions League winner with Juventus as he marked Kluivert out of the game in the final and CL finalist with Sampdoria as he formed the heart of their most successful side in history; Scirea, one of the greatest defenders and classiest players to play the game; and Kaltz, one of just two fullbacks to be named in the Ballon D'or top 5 between 1970-1985 and a key part of Hamburg's most successful side ever (which won a European Cup final against a Juventus side made up of over half the WC-winning Italy team just a year earlier)

On the left wing I have one of the most lethal combinations in the draft with Demyaenko, widely considered the best fullback to come from USSR, and Blokhin, widely considered the best left-sided player to come from USSR, both key figures in the national side and the dominant Kyiv side. Through the middle I have Ossie Ardiles and Ulbaldo Fillol, key figures in Argentina's first World Cup win, and the Vierchowod-Scirea axis who played together in the national side. On the right hand side I have Kaltz and Rummenigge who linked up so well in the Euro '80 win and throughout their long international careers. This level of synergy is something antohan simply can't match

 

[antohan]

ORIGINAL TACTICS AND DESCRIPTION

Back 5: stronger individuals across the board

• Scirea and Passarella excelled as liberos, but Daniel’s passing range and goal contribution is superior
• Brwned will tell you about his Italian CB pair, German & Soviet flanks. That Italian pair shipped 6 in 4 at WC86. Kaltz scored the most own goals ever in the Bundesliga. Demyanenko played with Blokhin as a striker

Central midfield pair: Falcao and Breitner offer more than Ardiles and Neeskens. Solid defensively, the best DLP in the draft, more assists and goals. There's a significant difference in overall quality

Front four: Brwned’s never played a single minute of football together

• Platini-Boniek was arguably the most fruitful and devastating partnerships in this era
• I’ve picked Elkjaer over Kempes to recreate his Danish association with Simonsen. Both mainstays for Piontek’s great side
• The front three provide the sort of movement upfront which Platini could exploit with his inch-perfect passing and space for him to steal in and grab the winner

Don’t make the mistake of just adding mutually exclusive scoring records

• Sánchez played in a dominant Real side which won La Liga 5 seasons in a row. Everywhere else he was a 1 in 2 striker

• Rummenigge was the most complete CF in the era. Could certainly play wide, but his effectiveness and goal record from there would be no better than Simonsen

• Rummenigge is up against a left flank which will know everything about him: Breitner and Briegel from Germany and Passarella from Inter. His physicality was an important asset, but the steamroller from Palatinate will nullify that

• Zico was a great player, but Platini is the best from this era, and is playing with a proven partner who helped him top score three seasons in a row against Serie A catenaccio sides, not the regional Brazilian cup sides Pelé scored 1000 goals against

All things considered, it will be a tough game but my stronger creative platform and proven partnerships upfront weigh in heavily to secure the result

 

[antohan]

BTW Neeskens WC goal record is largely a result of him being the designated peno taker for the Dutch.

Although his record is actually more comparable to Falcao's, suffice to say Breitner scored 35 in 59 in 1980-82 for Bayern and scored in two different World Cup finals.

 

[Brwned]

Player Profiles

Spoiler

Ubaldo Fillol

Named best goalkeeper at the 1978 World Cup. Named IFFHS' 14th greatest goalkeeper in world football and 3rd best South American keeper. So revered in Argentina that the award for best goalkeeper in the Clausura is called the Ubaldo Fillol award. Magnificent reflexes, a commanding presence and very consistent (as shown by him starting 58 consecutive games for Argentina, the national record). His peak form was on display for everyone to see in the World Cup final.

Manfred Kaltz

Second most appearances in Bundesliga history. One of just two fullbacks to be named in the Ballon D'or top 5 between 1970-1985. A key part of the most successful Hamburg side in their history, including helping them get to two European Cup finals (winning one) and win consecutive league titles. An expert in penalties, the Hamburg fan-favourite scored 53 of his 76 goals from the spot, a record in the Bundesliga. An exceptional crosser. A mainstay in the German defence for over a decade too.

Vierchowod

Quote:
On Vierchowod, Maradona eulogised: “He was an animal, he had muscles to the eyelashes. It was easy to pass by him, but then when I raised my head, he was in front of me again. I would have to pass him two or three more times and then I would pass the ball because I couldn’t stand him anymore.”
Quote:
He famously said in 1999: “I used to be much quicker than everyone else – now I’m just as quick as them.”
Allied to this pace and power he was an exceptional man-marker and defensive reader.

Scirea

Greatest player to have played for Juventus and easily among the top 3 defenders of all time. World Cup, European Cup, 7 leagues and multiple other cups. Not one red card in his career. His position required a special kind of genius and he was that and more. "Gaetano? An extraordinary man and footballer. An example of style and class both on the field and off it." said Dino Zoff. He was one of the best players in the world but was too humble to say so or even to simple think so. said Marco Tardelli.

Demyanenko

Voted 3rd best player in the Ukrainain ‘Team of the Century’ behind legends of Ukrainian football, Oleh Blokhin and Andriy Shevchenko; 4th in the all time caps record for the USSR, playing in three World Cups and one European Championship (reaching the final); captain of 5-time league winners Dynamo Kyiv, a key part of the best and most successful team in Soviet league history.

Osvaldo Ardiles

Named in the Football League 100 along with a collection of truly brilliant players. Nicknamed Pitón because of his snake-like dribbling, a real midfield dynamo. The perfect all-round midfielder with excellent passing, dribbling, vision, stamina and tenacity and because of this he excelled for Argentina as the deepest midfielder and as an attacking midfielder for Spurs, he could play any midfield role.

Johan Neeskens

Finished in the top 5 in the Ballon D'or in 1974. Nicknamed Johan the Second as Cruyff's second in command. The Dutch Roy Keane. A huge part of two of the greatest sides to play the game. Technically excellent, a great leader, a brilliant defensive player...really, if you don't know about Neeskens, just read up on him. A true great of the game and my captain.

Zico

Zico's probably the best Brazilian player I've seen.(a toss up between him and Ronaldo)

Blokhin

Ukrainian footballer of the century ahead of Shevchenko, Ukrainian footballer of the year 9 times between '71-'81. He also won a hat-trick of Soviet Footballer of the year awards between '73-'75 and appeared in the top three more than any other player throughout it's history...essentially, he's behind only Yashin. He was the best player of the greatest Soviet team in history. In 1975 he was voted the best player in Europe with 122 votes, Beckenbauer was next with 44, and his wonderful solo goal against Bayern shows why.

Spoiler

Scored one of the best team goals and one of the best individual goals in the Cup Winners' Cup and Super Cup in '86 in the space of months:

Set moves were to be practised, to be used, Zelntsov said, not robotically, but like a chess player adapting set gambits according to circumstance. These were the key to their conception of football, and it was through their models of training to develop among players a better understanding of the structures of the game that they carried football forwards. The classic example of such principles in action, perhaps, came in the Cup-Winners' Cup final of 1986, with Dynamo's second goal (1:40) in their 3-0 win over Atletico Madrid. Vasyl Rats advanced down the left, drew two men, and played the ball inside to Ihor Belanov. He then took two touches, and, as the centre back moved across to close him down, he, without so much as a glance, laid the ball right for Vadym Yevtushenko. He took one pace forward, forcing the opposition left back inside to close him down, then instinctively flicked the ball right for the overlapping Oleh Blokhin, who ran onto his pass and lifted his finish over the goalkeeper.

And his wonderful individual goal against Bayern, absolute wand of a left foot not dissimilar to Giggs in many ways...

Hugo Sanchez

175 goals in 4 seasons at Madrid between 86-90. Named 26th greatest player in IFFHS century selections, Rummenigge's the closest striker to him available in this draft in 35th place. A sensational goalscorer, no more needs said.

Karl-Heinz Rummenigge

“I've come up against Zico and Maradona, and I now know who’s the best player in the world: Karl-Heinz Rummenigge," Matthaus declared in the 1980s.

Youtube. Took over the mantle from Beckenbauer as Germany and Europe's best player in the late 70s/early 80s ('78-'83). The complete forward, so much so that he began his career as a winger (playing in a EC final as one) before gradually moving to a more central role and taking his game up another level. Scored 155 goals in 217 appearances in the 5 seasons at his absolute peak, and in the two seasons during this time that he appeared in the European Cup he finished as top scorer and second top scorer. More than that he was a devastating dribbler with a tremendous low centre of gravity and as such he was just as adept at creating as he was at scoring, with his 2 assists in the Euro '80 final highlighting his great delivery from set pieces and his cameo in the famous '82 game against France highlights his all-round influence - creator and scorer but above all a leader.

 

[antohan]

BTW, Brwned, the USSR did not qualify for Euro '80 or '84 so I assume you are referring to them being runners-up in '88?

 

[antohan]

Through the middle I have Ossie Ardiles and Ulbaldo Fillol, key figures in Argentina's first World Cup win, and the Vierchowod-Scirea axis who played together in the national side... This level of synergy is something antohan simply can't match

If a goalkeeper and a DM have synergy I may as well point out Briegel and Elkjaer being the two foreigners in Verona's Serie A winning side (a unique feat mostly reliant on a solid defence and a line leader feeding off scraps and holding up the ball long enough for others to join). In fact, there's probably as much synergy there as Demyanenko playing with Blokhin as a striker if players having played together is considered synergy, I just have no recollection of cosidering them as a duo though.

Tried and tested partnerships are important, having played together at some point doesn't necessarily add much.

Platini + Boniek, Elkjaer + Simonsen, Briegel and Breitner neutralising your right German flank are all solid calls.

So is Kaltz + Rummenigge, Demyanenko + Blokhin, Scirea + Vierchowod (tested to the tune of being significantly more fragile than the 82 defence).

I do think in such a tight game the proven partnerships upfront are of greater importance though as unlocking defences will be the challenge.

 

[antohan]

For the record, Brwned's own views on the fullback pair he is facing:

Gerets has a very good shout at being the best right back and Briegel's without question top three with the only other contenders being Junior and Breitner...so he's the best out and out left back, at the very least.

 

[Brwned]

Just to even it up, here's antohan pointing out the clear difference in class between our two Brazilians...

Re: Zico. Yes, that's where Didí went as I kept juggling central midfields. Falcao-Rivelino at one point... but I just thought it was ridiculous to leave out Zico to somehow fit Falcao (good as he was, Zico was the bollocks). It would really have to be Zito and Zico further forward:

-----------Zito------
Garrincha--Zico----Rivaldo
------Pelé-----Ronaldo

Talking about the best two strikers in the draft, compared to his no mark forward...

You now have the two frontmen I would have definitely considered benching Morena for on a football (non-marketing) basis alone. Sanchez being a definite and Rummenigge one to strongly consider relative to the game at hand.

And here he is talking about how he'd love to swap Blokhin for Simonsen (who wouldn't?)...

As far as my wide players go, it's simple, if I made the final they would both be on my wings, no matter who I met along the way. Only Blokhin would make me mull over whether to drop either of them.

 

[antohan]

That was a thread making the best Brazilian side ever, which obviously had to be uber-attacking. You do know full well I included Falcao originally but concluded he couldn't hold the entire midfield all by himself:

-------------Taffarel
Cafú---Domingos--Ramos---N. Santos
Garrincha--Falcao--Zico-----Rivaldo
---------Pelé--------Ronaldo

No one is questioning Zico being a top player anyway, but Platini would always invariably be among the best 5 ever, Zico wouldn't. In fact, he didn't make your Brazilian XI!!!

Same holds for Rummenigge and Sánchez. I was clear in my tactics description about how highly I rate them, so no news there.

I said Sánchez would definitely replace Morena because he is a similar (but better) pure goalscoring striker and box operator (not one to build up play or create his own chances). Rummenigge is not a like for like replacement, nor is Elkjaer. Given the characteristics of this game, I would play Rummenigge as CF ahead of Sanchez (thus Morena), and yes, ahead of Elkjaer, on an individual basis.

That said, Sanchez would always have been better off in Crust's team alongside Valdano, Juanito and Gordillo. And, while Rummenigge is the best CF on this, he is playing WF on the right and faced by three former colleagues. In fact, Rummenigge's most notorious partnership was the one with Breitner, so he too would be better off playing his footie elsewhere.

I never made any secret of my admiration of Blokhin, where have I questioned him? All you are pointing out is I was honest in that assessment. If I were desperate for a winger I would have picked Conti from IL, I simply think these two are the best ones in the draft though.

If I had beaten Duffy instead of Gio I would now have Blokhin as striker and Zico in the hole, while you would probably have Platini, a narrower front 3 and Souness replacing Ardiles in midfield.

 

[Duffy]

Close one for me, always was going to be given the players both teams have picked up. Going with Brwned, just. His front 6 look shit hot!

 

[antohan]

Close one for me, always was going to be given the players both teams have picked up. Going with Brwned, just. His front 6 look shit hot!

Yes, it does LOOK great but they never played together, let alone as effectively as mine. Sánchez thrives on crosses, while his two wide men are going to cut in. If Kaltz and Demyanenko go up to deliver them then Boniek and Simonsen are loose, which would make for a devastating counter after Passarella clears.

“He’s the best defender I’ve ever seen, and the best header of a ball too – in attack as well as defence”.

- Maradona

 

[Gio]

I do think in such a tight game the proven partnerships upfront are of greater importance though as unlocking defences will be the challenge.

You've changed your tune:

Of course, I don't think Platini was "Boniek dependent", which is the issue I have when people start pointing out club partnerships. Transfers usually involve one player, not the 2-3 that work well together. Great players will just perform .

I'd suggest it's far more pivotal than your two centre-halves understand each other because shape, rather than individual brilliance, is so fundamentally important in the back line. Even when both back fives are similarly matched, this puts Brwned at an advantage.

 

[Brwned]

You've questioned none of them, I was just highlighting the fact that I quite simply have the better attacking trio.

...his effectiveness and goal record from there would be no better than Simonsen

Simonsen played as a striker for the most part for Monchengladbach, no? Yet, as a wide player Rummenigge outscored Simonsen in the Bundesliga twice in three seasons (76/77 and 78/79) between the ages of 21 and 23 while Simonsen was 24-26. At his peak Rummenigge destroyed Simonsen's record as he moved inside. As a wide forward for Barca, Simonsen scored at a rate of under 1 in 3 which is basically the same rate as Rummenigge as a 19 year old...if he played there at his peak over the course of the season there's no question he'd offer a far greater goal threat. Obviously, neither of them are in that position for their goals alone but if you're bringing it up let's be fair.

Don’t make the mistake of just adding scoring records

Indeed, because if you did you'd see antohan's side get torn apart.

(Ignoring records in Polish, Belgian, Brazilian or Soviet leagues, although of course they're in my favour with Zico and Blokhin regular top scorers unlike Elkjaer and Boniek)

Simonsen, Elkjaer, Boniek and Platini

Spoiler

Simonsen: 46 goals in 102 games for Monchengladbach between 74-77, his best record over a three year period doesn't even reach 1 in 2.
Elkjaer: 38 in 69 for Denmark, and if we're being generous we can say at his peak he scored 13 in 19 over a three year period in his international career (4 in 8 WC qualifers)
Boniek: 24 in 80 for Poland, almost 1 in 3.
Platini: 82 goals in 139 games for Juve between 82-85.

190 goals in 390 games, averaging a goal every 2.25 games with their best periods taken into account.

Rummenigge, Hugo Sanchez, Blokhin and Zico

Spoiler

Rummenigge: 82 goals in 102 games between 79-82.
Hugo Sanchez: 114 goals in 145 games between 87-90.
Blokhin: 12 goals in 25 European matches between 72-75.
Zico: 16 goals in 20 Copa Libertadores matches between 80-83.

224 goals in 292 games. Averaging a goal every 1.3 games.

Perhaps I've shaped these stats to suit me better in the way antohan's produced his facts, but there's only so much I can manipulate these facts. My team outscores him here by 34 goals in over 100 games less...that's fairly conclusive.

Do Ardiles, Neeskens and Zico lack the creativity to provide in the way that Breitner, Zavarov and Schuster did? I don't think so. And with Demyanenko and Kaltz providing plenty of width with completely contrasting styles - Demyanenko's short passing interchanges and Kaltz's long range passing and crossing - as far as I'm concerned there's no shortage of goals. And then you've got Scirea, the best defender in the draft by a margin (unless you want to judge a defender by goals, then yes, Passarella's better...).

Do you completely dominate the midfield? First thing's first my midfield is without question more competitive, so there'll be no domination. He'll certainly have more control with Falcao perhaps being the only player of this period who could dictate the pace of the game from that position, and even more goal threat with Breitner in there, but he'll be up against a high-tempo pressing game of Neeskens and Ardiles and combined they provide a stronger defensive and competitive contribution than he's capable of. He'll have more control but my midfield is still getting plenty of the ball and using it very ambitiously, looking to catch his defence off guard as they're desperately struggling to deal with the pace and directness of my front three.

My back four on the other hand is dealing with Elkjaer and Simonsen relatively well, particularly with Vierchowod enjoying the 1v1 against Elkjaer matching him in pace and strength thus nullifying his entire attacking route through the middle. Kaltz isn't enjoying facing up to Boniek but with Scirea backing him up it becomes much more manageable - Scirea dealing with Boniek in the '82 semi final in a 2-0 win and Kaltz typically influential in the '83 European Cup final 1-0 win as Boniek again fails to help his team even score (as he did when Boniek faced up against Kaltz in the '78 World Cup in a 0-0...).

 

[Cling Bak]

antohan changing his tune to suit his argument in a draft????! Never!

 

[antohan]

You've changed your tune

Not exactly, I've always thought the idea of some players having "at some point played together" means nothing. You also cut off the bit where I say "so long as they play in the right system and in their right positions", etc.

I do agree proven partnerships count (like you pointed out, Xavi and Iniesta, for example) and actually said during our game whoever came out of that with both Boniek and Platini would have a fearsome duo. In fact, you know I PMd you when I picked Boniek stating you forced my hand as it was pretty obvious that having Platini you just had to have Boniek.

I'd suggest it's far more pivotal than your two centre-halves understand each other because shape, rather than individual brilliance, is so fundamentally important in the back line. Even when both back fives are similarly matched, this puts Brwned at an advantage.

Scirea and Vierchowod played together rather briefly, for Italy only, and shipped goals left right and centre, including two against the mighty South Korea. If they proved anything as partners it's that they leak goals.

 

[Polaroid]

Both managers have similar formations and equally compelling cases of partnerships at club/international level
I think it would come down to individual player quality barring any tactical out-maneuvers
It is tight so I would score each and every player to be fair

Dasayev - 8
Gerets - 7
Briegel - 7
Passarella - 8.5
McGrath - 7.5
Breitner - 8
Falcao - 8.5
Platini - 9
Boniek - 8
Elkjaer - 7.5
Simonsen - 7
Total - 86

Fillol - 7.5
Kaltz - 7
Demyanenko - 7
Scirea - 9
Vierchowod - 7.5
Ardiles - 7.5
Neeskens - 8.5
Zico - 9
Blokhin - 8
Sanchez - 8
Rummenigge - 9
Total - 88

Based on player quality, Brwned has the advantage but i would wait to hear from Antohan (if he can pull off any tactical out-maneuver) and the counter-measure from Brwned before casting my vote

 

[antohan]

Simonsen played as a striker for the most part for Monchengladbach, no? Yet, as a wide player Rummenigge outscored Simonsen in the Bundesliga twice in three seasons (76/77 and 78/79) between the ages of 21 and 23 while Simonsen was 24-26.

My recollection is Simonsen started wide and moved centrally as he lost pace, he sure did get his Ballon d'Or as a wide player. No idea if Rummenigge was mainly playing wide or centrally in 76-79, probably mixed a bit of both which is what I recall seeing of Rummenigge in the Bundesliga. My point was that as wide players they would be more comparable than their names or goalscoring records suggest.

Indeed, because if you did you'd see antohan's side get torn apart.

The goals my four (+Breitner +Passarella) score are not mutually exclusive. That's my main point with adding scoring records. If you add goals from three players playing as a centreforward but only having one playing there the result is a myth.

As stated, Sanchez had a great record in a team that completely dominated games and was perfect for him to score. I don't think his record would translate to a game were you do not dominate, create as many chances and don't even have much chance of crossing into the box for him.

 

[antohan]

Both managers have similar formations and equally compelling cases of partnerships at club/international level
I think it would come down to individual player quality barring any tactical out-maneuvers
It is tight so I would score each and every player to be fair

Christ Pol, what is a 10 in your world?

I have to go to work now, but there's another day in this anyway.

 

[Polaroid]

Simonsen played as a striker for the most part for Monchengladbach, no? Yet, as a wide player Rummenigge outscored Simonsen in the Bundesliga twice in three seasons (76/77 and 78/79) between the ages of 21 and 23 while Simonsen was 24-26. At his peak Rummenigge destroyed Simonsen's record as he moved inside. As a wide forward for Barca, Simonsen scored at a rate of under 1 in 3 which is basically the same rate as Rummenigge as a 19 year old...if he played there at his peak over the course of the season there's no question he'd offer a far greater goal threat. Obviously, neither of them are in that position for their goals alone but if you're bringing it up let's be fair.



Indeed, because if you did you'd see antohan's side get torn apart.

(Ignoring records in Polish, Belgian, Brazilian or Soviet leagues, although of course they're in my favour with Zico and Blokhin regular top scorers unlike Elkjaer and Boniek)

Simonsen, Elkjaer, Boniek and Platini

Spoiler

Simonsen: 46 goals in 102 games for Monchengladbach between 74-77, his best record over a three year period doesn't even reach 1 in 2.
Elkjaer: 38 in 69 for Denmark, and if we're being generous we can say at his peak he scored 13 in 19 over a three year period in his international career (4 in 8 WC qualifers)
Boniek: 24 in 80 for Poland, almost 1 in 3.
Platini: 82 goals in 139 games for Juve between 82-85.

190 goals in 390 games, averaging a goal every 2.25 games with their best periods taken into account.

Rummenigge, Hugo Sanchez, Blokhin and Zico

Spoiler

Rummenigge: 82 goals in 102 games between 79-82.
Hugo Sanchez: 114 goals in 145 games between 87-90.
Blokhin: 12 goals in 25 European matches between 72-75.
Zico: 16 goals in 20 Copa Libertadores matches between 80-83.

224 goals in 292 games. Averaging a goal every 1.3 games.

Perhaps I've shaped these stats to suit me better in the way antohan's produced his facts, but there's only so much I can manipulate these facts. My team outscores him here by 34 goals in over 100 games less...that's fairly conclusive.

Do Ardiles, Neeskens and Zico lack the creativity to provide in the way that Breitner, Zavarov and Schuster did? I don't think so. And with Demyanenko and Kaltz providing plenty of width with completely contrasting styles - Demyanenko's short passing interchanges and Kaltz's long range passing and crossing - as far as I'm concerned there's no shortage of goals. And then you've got Scirea, the best defender in the draft by a margin (unless you want to judge a defender by goals, then yes, Passarella's better...).

Concur with some of the salient points you have raised - you have a marginally better defence (with Scirea making the difference) and a significantly better offense (all-round attacking facets and a decisive edge in goal threat).

 

[Polaroid]

Christ Pol, what is a 10 in your world?

I have to go to work now, but there's another day in this anyway.

Maradona was the best I have seen, should he get a 10 at his best? maybe

I agree with a point that you made in another thread - several other teams were improving more significantly than you as the competition progressed. Post group stage, Brwned made significant improvements to his team, picking up Rummenigge, Scirea, Zico and Blokhin (all of of whom have legitimate claims to be the best in their position). A combination of both luck (which opponent you draw decides which players you get) and shrewd recruitment.

 

[antohan]

Concur with some of the salient points you have raised - you have a marginally better defence (with Scirea making the difference) and a significantly better offense (all-round attacking facets and a decisive edge in goal threat).

Looks like you have made up your mind anyway. As far as your ratings go, I think you underrate my fullbacks and Simonsen in particular. A 7 rating for a European Footballer of the Year? Really? Lower than Ardiles?

Scirea was a great defender, but I have a feeling people here are completely overrating them two for being an Italian pair. Italy followed-up on a freak tournament by not qualifying to Euro 84. They were in a group with Romania, Czechia, Sweden and Cyprus and only managed to beat Cyprus... just the home leg, not even Cyprus away... shipping 12 goals and scoring 6. Then in 86 they were the most porous Italian WC side I've ever seen. Yet these two are meant to be magnificent together?

 

[antohan]

Am I the only one seeing Breitner and Falcao being a vastly superior pair in a key area of the pitch? The engine room is different class.

 

[Brwned]

Do you think Ardiles wasn't all that great, antohan?

 

[antohan]

i would wait to hear from Antohan (if he can pull off any tactical out-maneuver) and the counter-measure from Brwned before casting my vote

Technically, I could go for bringing on Schuster alongside Falcao and playing Breitner and Gerets as pretty advanced wingbacks with three at the back. Simonsen would get the chop with Boniek picking either wing as and when depending on play.

It would be very effective at completely neutralising any attacking threat, but it looks like people don't have a lot of time for midfield control as it is and would rather vote on how many high-scoring centreforwards you can dump on a pitch. In that sense it would be an own goal.

 

[antohan]

Do you think Ardiles wasn't all that great, antohan?

Not at the same level, no. Handy player no doubt, but Breitner and Falcao would boss that midfield.

Breitner was a freak: Bundesliga, European Cup, Euros and WC champion by age 22. Germany's poorest WC campaign between 74 and 90 was 1978, without Breitner. Rummenigge himself demanded he was brought back in the squad and next you know you find him once again scoring in a World Cup final...

35 goals in 59 games between 1980 and 82, it's not just a freak tournament, he was a consistent goal threat from midfield which you don't have at all.

Ardiles is not half the player he was by comparison.

 

[Duffy]

Don't get me wrong in my vote, My defense was built on the fact they had played together successfully (which became my eventual downfall in the semi's) but Brwneds frontline just screams goals to me...

...Still don't think it's as good as my losing semi-finalist front 6

 

[antohan]

Don't get me wrong in my vote, My defense was built on the fact they had played together successfully (which became my eventual downfall in the semi's) but Brwneds frontline just screams goals to me...

...Still don't think it's as good as my losing semi-finalist front 6

Your front 6 were indeed a better proposition, you had Zico roaming, Blokhin alternating between wing and box, Keegan in good company... Exactly what I mean by "not adding goalscoring records". Those three looked like a better joint attacking proposition, not getting in each other's way but adding to each other's game, while these seem to not be as good as the sum of the parts, let alone better.

And the midfield three were vastly superior with Robbo, Ceulemans and Tigana.

Your back four though, while they had played successfully together weren't in the very top tier. You could argue the fullbacks were, but you had a very soft centre in Lawrenson and Brio. Basically, you had the worst CBs to have played successfully alongside Cabrini and Neal and that was very striking.

It was painful to vote against you though as I really liked that side from the off.

 

[antohan]

Somewhat off-topic, but one thing that strikes me about this generation is how influential they were after their playing careers, which is a testament to their leadership and organisational skills.

• Passarella went on to be River's manager and president
• Breitner actually became Bayern's President the moment he retired and was already the club's general manager while still being a player
• Platini was called upon as coach, then the French federation, presided over their most succesful period and WC win, now UEFA, and is a dead cert for FIFA in the future
• Rummenigge is Bayern's Chairman
• Then the likes of Valdano, Butragueño, etc...

There are plenty of them that have gone on to be managers, coaches or scouts, like with any other generation, but other than Beckembauer and Cruyff I can't think of many that went on to have such a major impact on football at an organisational level.

 

[antohan]

Nice one Crust

 

[antohan]

Christ, I just realised Brwned has used his editorial powers to write an essay on the OP

I won't bother replying as no one will get this far down, but I would appreciate it if yet another misleading point is removed:

1. Scirea can't back up Kaltz because he is on the left

2. Scirea didn't handle Boniek in 82 because he was suspended for the semi for collecting yellows doing his usual defensive support (if ever there was a player who could be effective while being "all over the place", that was Boniek)

3. Kaltz didn't nullify Boniek in 78. Firstly, he wasn't at his peak then. Second, he was only on the pitch for all of 12 minutes.

 

[antohan]

Brwned, you'd better brace yourself

It's getting dark, Il Bello di Notte is coming out on the hunt

And what a terrific, telepathic tandem they formed, with Platini’s stately passes over the top proving a perfect supply for the elusive movement and electric speed of Boniek. Together, they helped Juventus win a Coppa Italia, Scudetto, UEFA Cup Winners’ Cup, UEFA Super Cup and, crucially, their first European Cup.

Giampiero Boniperti, Juve’s president during that era, recalled: “They were good friends off the pitch, and they had a wonderful understanding on it. When Platini received the ball, Boniek was already off. And when Platini was making a pass, you knew it would be pinpoint, and when Boniek was running, you knew nobody could catch him.”

Boniperti added of Boniek: “He was a truly magnificent player. He was so fast, his movement was very clever, he was very skilful, a great passer, could score with his right, his left and his head, and was very brave. And he had a knack of taking his game to another level on an evening, when we played the huge European matches.”

Gianni Agnelli, the then Juventus owner, later explained: “We already had the best player in the world [in Michel Platini]. But when the match was on an evening, we had the best two. Zibi was unstoppable at night. Why? I don’t know, but it was as if he had the genes of a deadly predator who did his hunting at night.”

FIFA Classic Player - Boniek

 

[Gio]

Do you think Ardiles wasn't all that great, antohan?

Ardiles is the weakest midfielder on the pitch, but not enough given the presence of Neeskens and Zico for Antohan's team to get anything more than a small edge in the middle.

Scirea didn't handle Boniek in 82 because he was suspended for the semi for collecting yellows doing his usual defensive support (if ever there was a player who could be effective while being "all over the place", that was Boniek)

Aye, was gonna say this but knew you'd point it out. Tardelli cites it as one of the reasons Italy progressed to the final.

Polaroid's player rating is pretty accurate although I'd stick Platini at 9.5.

 

[Brwned]

Christ, I just realised Brwned has used his editorial powers to write an essay on the OP

I won't bother replying as no one will get this far down, but I would appreciate it if yet another misleading point is removed:

1. Scirea can't back up Kaltz because he is on the left

2. Scirea didn't handle Boniek in 82 because he was suspended for the semi for collecting yellows doing his usual defensive support (if ever there was a player who could be effective while being "all over the place", that was Boniek)

3. Kaltz didn't nullify Boniek in 78. Firstly, he wasn't at his peak then. Second, he was only on the pitch for all of 12 minutes.

I don't believe 1. is a serious point, but if it is I can happily switch Scirea over to the right...Vierchowod's taking Elkjaer, Scirea's sweeping up, doesn't matter what side they're on in the image.

2. was just a genuine mistake on my part, 3. was me just being a bit cheeky! Kaltz had no impact on Boniek in the '83(?) European Cup final either because Boniek was essentially playing as a centre mid...though Hamburg did nullify his overall threat quite well, and at night...

I thought it was fair considering you're trying to suggest that front three clashes in some way...ridiculous, IMO. I've no doubt if I went for Zico, Rummenigge and Sanchez you'd still have said the same! Blokhin and Rummenigge might have similar strengths but very different styles and they're both comfortable right across the front line, while Demyanenko and Kaltz will offer them plenty of opportunities to come inside - they'll be wary of the threat at the other end but we're an attacking side with a lot of confidence here, if Simonsen's happy letting Demyanenko go then I'm delighted because he and Blokhin won't give Gerets and McGrath a chance.

 

[Polaroid]

Looks like you have made up your mind anyway. As far as your ratings go, I think you underrate my fullbacks and Simonsen in particular. A 7 rating for a European Footballer of the Year? Really? Lower than Ardiles?

I think neutrals by and large would agree that Brwned has a significantly better offence. Scirea is the best defender in this competition and one of the best of all-time, giving him a marginal edge in defence. That is before considering the importance of communication in a centre-back pairing where Scirea-Vierchowod will foreseeably have less of of an issue than McGrath-Passarella. I did rate your keeper and midfield as marginally better if you check the ratings. Both teams have similar set-ups and are excellently balanced, although Brwned made a valid point about having more goal threat. If there is nothing to separate the two sides in team tactics and balance, then it comes down to player quality, and he has the advantage there. But the manager can turn the tide with the tactics he employs.

Gerets-Briegel are in the same class as Kaltz-Demyanenko. If I have under-rated your fullbacks, then I have under-rated his too - there is no difference in the end

No disrespect but Simonsen was probably one of the weakest recipients in the history of the award. Players in the attacking third tend to dominate such awards too. Keegan won 2 European Footballer of the Year awards. Owen won once too. The likes of Neeskens and Scholes never got anywhere near to winning it. Ardiles is reasonable at 7.5 given that Breitner is at 8, Falcao at 8.5. Some people might say that I have under-rated Hugo Sanchez.

 

[antohan]

Polaroid's player rating is pretty accurate although I'd stick Platini at 9.5.

Indeed, arguably the only player to have matched Maradona in winning an international tournament on his own. Granted, the rest of France was great, but I think the same concept that Butragueño applied to Maradona also applies here: "if any of the second round teams had him they would have won it".

Breitner is either an 8.5 or Ardiles a 7, probably the latter, but there isn't just 0.5 difference.

My fullbacks should be at least half a point better off, even Brwned himself would recognise that.

A European Footballer of the Year (and third in 1983) on 7 is a joke.

They are quite bang on and reasonable overall, but those 0.5 differences -always to my disadvantage- more than make up for the 2 point difference he gets at the end.

 

[antohan]

I don't believe 1. is a serious point, but if it is I can happily switch Scirea over to the right...Vierchowod's taking Elkjaer, Scirea's sweeping up, doesn't matter what side they're on in the image.

It was a serious point, it's a bit like Gio insisting to me that Kempes was playing centrally and Elkjaer out wide when the image didn't show that at all. Of course you can switch them.

2. was just a genuine mistake on my part, 3. was me just being a bit cheeky! Kaltz had no impact on Boniek in the '83(?) European Cup final either because Boniek was essentially playing as a centre mid...though Hamburg did nullify his overall threat quite well, and at night...

I imagined that was the case. Much like claiming the USSR made the final in 1980! But you can see how it was misleading. Fair enough on the 83 Final, have no recollection of ever watching that so didn't comment. You haven't edited the '78 and '83 comments out though

I thought it was fair considering you're trying to suggest that front three clashes in some way...ridiculous, IMO. I've no doubt if I went for Zico, Rummenigge and Sanchez you'd still have said the same!

Nah, it would have been one of those terrible tridents you make, like the one with Shearer, Larsson and god knows who the other CF was. I would then have claimed you lacked width, which is what you addressed by bringing on Blokhin.

I think it was a good move and I don't dispute Blokhin's and Rummenigge's ability at all, it is mostly Sánchez which I expect to look like a fish out of water here. The team is not setup around him and to service him (cross, cross, cross), I'm more worried about your two WF cutting in in possession than I am about Sánchez himself TBH.

That of course all based on your fullbacks staying conservative, if they push up I would have the freedom of the flanks behind their backs and would have a much easier and open route to goal than you would get from attacking with them. Whether people recognise that or not is a different matter though.

 

[Gio]

It was a serious point, it's a bit like Gio insisting to me that Kempes was playing centrally and Elkjaer out wide when the image didn't show that at all. Of course you can switch them.

A fair point as in retrospect I would have switched them for clarity purposes. However it depends on how much you invest in the formation graphic - which for me represents a starting position, rather than an average-position heatmap.

 

[antohan]

A fair point as in retrospect I would have switched them for clarity purposes. However it depends on how much you invest in the formation graphic - which for me represents a starting position, rather than an average-position heatmap.

What I found funny was that I thought it made a lot more sense the way you described it than the way it was represented. Hand on heart, wasn't it just the fact Kempes is a leftie so you felt better portraying him on the left?

 

[Polaroid]

Indeed, arguably the only player to have matched Maradona in winning an international tournament on his own. Granted, the rest of France was great, but I think the same concept that Butragueño applied to Maradona also applies here: "if any of the second round teams had him they would have won it".

Breitner is either an 8.5 or Ardiles a 7, probably the latter, but there isn't just 0.5 difference.

My fullbacks should be at least half a point better off, even Brwned himself would recognise that.

A European Footballer of the Year (and third in 1983) on 7 is a joke.

They are quite bang on and reasonable overall, but those 0.5 differences -always to my disadvantage- more than make up for the 2 point difference he gets at the end.

Scirea, Zico, Platini, Rummenigge are those from this generation who rank among the all-time greats. I think it is fair to put them in the same class when it is questionable to give a perfect score of 10 and there are the likes of Maradona, Pele, Garrincha, Cruyff and Beckanbauer to account for, not to mention others like Baresi, Maldini, Van Basten, Matthaus, Ronaldo, Zidane and Messi

Breitner on 8.5 would put him in the same class as Falcao and higher than Boniek, Blokhin and Sanchez, which does not seem right. If anything, Hugo Sanchez was the most likely candidate of the four for a 8.5 rating but I retained him in the 8 bracket instead so it is not true to say that I gave Brwned's players the benefit of the doubt over yours all the time

I really do not see the difference in class between both pairs of fullbacks
Both Kaltz and Gerets are in contention for the best right-back although personally I prefer Kaltz, I nevertheless gave them the same rating
There isn't anything to separate Briegel and Demyanenko either

As I have said, Simonsen was probably one of the weakest recipients in the history of the European Footballer of the Year award. Keegan won 2 European Footballer of the Year awards - same as Rummenigge but does that make them of the same class? Michael Owen won once too but Henry and Raul never did. Lampard was second in the World and European Player of the Year awards. The likes of Neeskens and Scholes never got anywhere near to winning it. Was there any occasion when Scholes was in the top twenty of the award? Suffice to say, the awards can serve as a general guide but we cannot take them at face value every time

 

[antohan]

Breitner on 8.5 would put him in the same class as Falcao and higher than Boniek, Blokhin and Sanchez, which does not seem right. If anything, Hugo Sanchez was the most likely candidate of the four for a 8.5 rating but I retained him in the 8 bracket instead so it is not true to say that I gave Brwned's players the benefit of the doubt over yours all the time

Agree with that assessment, that's why I pointed out it was probably more a case of Ardiles being a 7 than Breitner an 8.5.

Re: awards, I agree as well that they often overlook great players. I'm not one to bang on about individual honours much (less so advocating someone being great just because his side won a World Cup) but surely someone winning it is more than a 7 at their peak? Clearly, you don't have a very high opinion of Simonsen, which may be more about his unspectacular Barca days, but you are entitled to that opinion, of course.

Which leads me to what I've been working on for the last half hour or so...