Fabio da Silva | 2013/14 Performances

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Floyd said:
I'm thinking bulking up has a lot to answer for. Jones is massive and Valencia is just ridiculous, I can't imagine all that muscle mass is necessary. They both were more nimble when they came, especially Valencia.

Rafael might've lost half a yard as well already but for him bulking up was needed, his brother should do the same thing.

Ronaldo too needed more muscle, but it's enough now! He however hasn't lost any pace, just a wee bit of flair really. But who cares about what when he scores like a mad man?
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That is a lot of bollocks, sorry mate. Bulking up doesn't mean losing pace. Ronaldo has only gotten faster after he started bulking up. When he arrived at United a thirty something old Giggs was still faster than him, and he was outpaced by a 33-34 year old Overmars too. At this stage he's probably as fast or faster than both at their prime. That is down to him bulking up and getting more explosive. So you are wrong - Ronaldo did not keep his pace while bulking up, he became quite a bit quicker (may have lost just a little bit of agility, that I can agree with).

Valencia is probably as fast as Ronaldo in a straight line, but imo he has never been very agile. Jones looks faster than when he arrived. Look at Distin, he must be around 100 kg of pure muscle, but he's still pretty feckin quick for an old man.

Rafael is just as fast as he ever was. Why do you assume that more muscle means less speed when all the 100 and 200m runners are big as tanks? It's about a proper workout regime, not just about body mass.
 
It's strange really. Most of our attacks come down from the right and both Jones and Valencia are shocking going forward.
 
Rossa said:
That is a lot of bollocks, sorry mate. Bulking up doesn't mean losing pace. Ronaldo has only gotten faster after he started bulking up. When he arrived at United a thirty something old Giggs was still faster than him, and he was outpaced by a 33-34 year old Overmars too. At this stage he's probably as fast or faster than both at their prime. That is down to him bulking up and getting more explosive. So you are wrong - Ronaldo did not keep his pace while bulking up, he became quite a bit quicker (may have lost just a little bit of agility, that I can agree with).

Valencia is probably as fast as Ronaldo in a straight line, but imo he has never been very agile. Jones looks faster than when he arrived. Look at Distin, he must be around 100 kg of pure muscle, but he's still pretty feckin quick for an old man.

Rafael is just as fast as he ever was. Why do you assume that more muscle means less speed when all the 100 and 200m runners are big as tanks? It's about a proper workout regime, not just about body mass.
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I didn't really say that more muscle mass equals less speed but I can see why you would go with that angle.

You mention agility, that's a better word to describe the "losses" being made. Solskjaer himself said that at one point in his career (I can't remember when) he had too much muscle mass and couldn't move as he wanted.

Don't you agree that Valencia looks a bit too big for a footballer now, at least for a winger? He got outpaced by Hazard last night. Granted Hazard is lightening but I've never seen Val lose a race before.
 
Floyd said:
I didn't really say that more muscle mass equals less speed but I can see why you would go with that angle.

You mention agility, that's a better word to describe the "losses" being made. Solskjaer himself said that at one point in his career (I can't remember when) he had too much muscle mass and couldn't move as he wanted.

Don't you agree that Valencia looks a bit too big for a footballer now, at least for a winger? He got outpaced by Hazard last night. Granted Hazard is lightening but I've never seen Val lose a race before.
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In terms of agility, I think we can agree that there seems to be some reduction if you gain too much muscle. However, I read a bit about increasing speed and one of the things you should focus on was your pecks and shoulder muscles. Most sprinters have one helluva chest as well as huge shoulders, so I would imagine that makes sense. Valencia is very big for a footballer, but not particularly big for a sprinter. If you look at that "race" between him and Hazard you will see that Valencia stops running because he gets a bad touch that he couldn't have done anything with - 10 out of 10 times would Valencia blast past Hazard on a longer stretch with ease. Hazard is very quick off the mark, but not for top speed.

A lot of people, probably footballers as well, don't exercise properly and subsequently can lose pace, but for a sprinter, explosive muscles is a plus. From a footballers perspective that can cause some problems as all those muscles need oxygen; thus they may struggle to sprint over and over throughout 90 minutes, but for short bursts of speed, I don't think it's an issue. Valencia was just as big as he is now when he made that ridiculous run against Liverpool, and that was also after the injury from which people argued he had lost pace.

Did you see the way he blasted past Ramires (whom I would argue have a better top speed than Hazard) in the second half? Not many players can do that.
 
IhabX7 said:
Which is strange because in Jones' first few games with United he showed some great dribbling and speed. He was getting into opponents' box as a CB, and been called the new Beckenbauer on here.
I've been thinking about this a lot in the last year, I think that almost every player that has joined us has become weaker in getting past players by the year. O'Shea was the prime example for me, but Smalling, Jones, Rooney, Valencia, Young, almost everyone to be frank. I have no idea what this means though, do we not work on this enough in training, is it constraints that the managers apply? No idea really.

I agree with you on Rafael as I have already said earlier.
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I thought about this long ago too and couldn't come up w a reason really. Nani is just about the only player who has retained it.

I think simply put its not really emphasised in training, and it's left to the player to develop on his own.
 
lot of jones vs fabio discussion going on here.
a more telling thing was that buttner was ahead of him on the bench. why was that the case? is he injured or not? was that questions answered?
 
wonnie said:
I thought about this long ago too and couldn't come up w a reason really. Nani is just about the only player who has retained it.

I think simply put its not really emphasised in training, and it's left to the player to develop on his own.
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I seem to recall Nani saying that he wasn't "allowed" to dribble and use his skills as he pleased but rather play for the team. There seems to be a bit of that at United; maybe that explains why many people underestimate our players...
 
I remember a few years ago Carrick took the ball around someone and smashed in a good goal (I want to say against Wigan)

One of the pundits asked an ex United midfielder why we don't see that sort of thing from him more often. I can't remember who (sorry it's so vague) but he answered something like that when he played under Ferguson players who aren't on the wing or in the box are actively encouraged from taking people on
 
Twigginater said:
I remember a few years ago Carrick took the ball around someone and smashed in a good goal (I want to say against Wigan)

One of the pundits asked an ex United midfielder why we don't see that sort of thing from him more often. I can't remember who (sorry it's so vague) but he answered something like that when he played under Ferguson players who aren't on the wing or in the box are actively encouraged from taking people on
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Sort of makes sense, but then one remembers how Ferguson applauded Ando's ability to go past players in the middle - he said the same about Giggs a few years ago.

Btw, Giggs was always great at going past players, with ease may I add, and well into his thirties. What happened with Young and Valencia is a mystery though. I don't think Rafael has lost pace - where did that come from?
 
On the lack of dribbling I personally think it's gone a lot to do with Scholes fading from the team. Nani has always been good in tight areas but where Young and to a greater extent Valencia have thrived is being one on one with their man. With Scholes in the team Valencia could push really high and Scholes could ping a 50 yard pass straight to feet and Valencia would be one on one with the fullback and the opposition wouldn't have the time to pull players across. Now Valencia has to take up a deeper role and you can see he doesn't have the confidence to take someone on in a tight area.

I would say that's probably true for the full backs as well, it was a massive asset to say have the play on the left than all of a sudden switch it to a fullback/winger in loads of space. I think Jones has still got the ability, he did a great run at speed against Arsenal I think at the tail end of last season.
 
Rossa said:
That is a lot of bollocks, sorry mate. Bulking up doesn't mean losing pace. Ronaldo has only gotten faster after he started bulking up. When he arrived at United a thirty something old Giggs was still faster than him, and he was outpaced by a 33-34 year old Overmars too. At this stage he's probably as fast or faster than both at their prime. That is down to him bulking up and getting more explosive. So you are wrong - Ronaldo did not keep his pace while bulking up, he became quite a bit quicker (may have lost just a little bit of agility, that I can agree with).

Valencia is probably as fast as Ronaldo in a straight line, but imo he has never been very agile. Jones looks faster than when he arrived. Look at Distin, he must be around 100 kg of pure muscle, but he's still pretty feckin quick for an old man.

Rafael is just as fast as he ever was. Why do you assume that more muscle means less speed when all the 100 and 200m runners are big as tanks? It's about a proper workout regime, not just about body mass.
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You're sort of answering your own question. Footballers and sprinters are apples and oranges. More muscle mass can obviously produce more speed in sprinters, but how fast would those same sprinters be after an hour's running in a football match? Some footballers do benefit from more muscle, some don't, it depends on the individual, and on how much more muscle they put on. As you say yourself though, sprinters do have a different body shape to most footballers, which isn't due to coincidence.
 
711 said:
You're sort of answering your own question. Footballers and sprinters are apples and oranges. More muscle mass can obviously produce more speed in sprinters, but how fast would those same sprinters be after an hour's running in a football match? Some footballers do benefit from more muscle, some don't, it depends on the individual, and on how much more muscle they put on. As you say yourself though, sprinters do have a different body shape to most footballers, which isn't due to coincidence.
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My point was, as I think was made clear, that muscle mass per se doesn't make you slower if you work out properly. Even shot putters are quite fast on a 40 yard dash and they have quite a bit of extra to carry around also. The argument that Valencia has lost pace because he is muscular is that of ignorance. Ronaldo is a living proof that spending hours after hours in the gym will make you faster if you do the right things. I also think Rafael has become faster and not slower. It does depend on the individual, that's true. Agbonlahor became somewhat slower, but he looked more big than ripped, which can hardly be said about Valencia.

There is certainly an issue of becoming too big in terms of lasting the full 90 minutes. It's not something that seems to affect either Valencia or Ronaldo though, but it could affect someone like Young for instance. Evra is also one of our more muscular players along with Nani and they are both pretty quick (Evra slightly less so now that he has aged a bit and allegedly played with some minor injuries, but overall he seems to have regained quite a bit of pace). A player like Lennon would probably not benefit from bulking up as I would assume you lose some agility on the way and he is all about pace and agility.
 
elmo said:
Has he been sacrificed to hasten Rafael's return? He clearly deserves to play ahead of Jones at fullback.
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He's never gonna be starting vs Liverpool away, when he's hardly played for us at all.
 
Sam said:
He's never gonna be starting vs Liverpool away, when he's hardly played for us at all.
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I thought he played more for us in the preseason than Jones did, and I doubt an away game to Liverpool will overawe him when we've played him in a Champions League Finals before.
 
His absence is baffling unless he is injured. And I've heard no news of injury. :nervous:
 
It's disheartening for the fans to see that he isn't even on the bench let alone how it must feel to him.

I could understand the Jones selection against Chelsea because they're a big threat from set pieces so it was perhaps worth sacrificing any sort of attacking threat but I cannot understand why Fabio was overlooked for this one.
 
I didn't expect him to start this one(I would like it though), but can't find reason(except that he was injured) why he shouldn't be on the bench instead of Buttner. He is better left back than buttner, and plus he can play on right too.
 
What's going on here then? Can't get on the bench ahead of Buttner, can't play RB ahead of Jones and we tried to get another LB in during the window too. Why is Fabio not getting chances, I thought he was one of our better players on tour.
 
I didn't really like his performances on tour that much, but even if he was our worst player, he is easily better than Buttner IMO.

Only two possible explanations could be:
- he is injured
- Moyes rates Buttner higher because he is phyisically stronger
 
I'm sure I read somewhere that Fabio was one of the players who impressed Moyes on tour. It seems however the tour doesn't hold much weight with Moyes' decision making. Zaha, Anderson, Fabio, Januzaj, Lingard all haven't gotten much of a look since we came back. Maybe Moyes is just being cautious early doors.
 
Fabio played mostly on the right on tour.

I think Coentrao would have been a very useful player for us and it's a shame we messed it up.

Not quite sure if I'd trust Fabio (or Evans?) on the left if Evra was injured for a big CL game.

Looks like Buttner will go on loan to Besiktas; their window closes on the 6th.
 
Unfortunately I missed the match today.

Great to know that he started. How did he get on?
 
Did very well, one of the only positives in the first half an hour of the game were him and Evra getting forward. Played nice passes and moves
 
Loo
dr.twinny said:
Unfortunately I missed the match today.

Great to know that he started. How did he get on?
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Didn't have much to d defensively, a couple of decent attacks on the right. Looked a bit rusty but that is to be expected.
 
He's clearly behind Rafael who has been getting regular first team football in terms of development. His first proper game in a long while though
 
Wasn't tested. Got forward well enough.. Biggest positive was that he lasted 90 minutes.
If he can stay fit, I'm sure he'll do well.
The twins are pretty good footballers.
 
Great. Hopefully he'll get more games as the season goes on, either on the left or right hand side of defense.
 
6/10 for me. Could tell he's not played any football recently.
 
Fabio > Jones at right back, both defensively and going forward in my opinion. Jones is not a right back.
 
Carl said:
6/10 for me. Could tell he's not played any football recently.
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What more did you want from him? He participated better in the offense than his brother does and even made Evra look like the "less involved wing-back" on the pitch for long periods today which is something Rafael has never/almost never done.
 
Annahnomoss said:
What more did you want from him? He participated better in the offense than his brother does and even made Evra look like the "less involved wing-back" on the pitch for long periods today which is something Rafael has never/almost never done.
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Sure he was involved plenty but the rust was abundantly clear to see in his general play.
 
Carl said:
Sure he was involved plenty but the rust was abundantly clear to see in his general play.
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I agree but a 6 is pretty harsh judgment. I thought he was one of our best players today mainly as our CB's had almost nothing to do and only Evra/Rooney/Carrick played well of the starters.
 
For a lad that was out of action for a fair while I thought he played well especially in the first 20 mins or so when we were operating over on the right side a lot, himself and Valencia looked very threatening then. He made the odd mistake like the one near the end where he over lapped one of the Palace players but then let the ball run out over the end line but that's all to be expected, once he shakes off the cobwebs he'll be grand.
 
Feed Me said:
It's better to play Fabio than Jones. Yes, he may have been rusty, but he's far more natural.
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Agree with this. When Rafa is out, Fabio should always play RB. I thought he did well for his first outing in a while.
 
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