FA Youth Cup - Chelsea vs Manchester United

red woppit said:
Yes, it is difficult, but it's fascinating to see the lads progress (or not), and the ones you thought were nailed on, are suddenly overtaken by the guy you thought had no chance. I have watched some great players come through at United, and it makes me so happy that, as a club, we do give these lads an opportunity to succeed, and long may that continue.
I was worried that under Moyes, Van Gaal and Jose that our youth/academy would go to pot, and it certainly felt like that at times, but fortunately under Ole we have started to invest in youth again.
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Why under LvG? He was even more trusting of youth players and youngsters than Ole is.

  • Riley played 2 times under him
  • Powell played 3 times under him
  • TFM played 10 times under him
  • Varela played 11 times under him
  • Blackett played 12 times under him
  • Andreas played 13 times under him
  • CBJ played 16 times under him
  • Rashford played 18 times under him
  • Wilson played 19 times under him
  • McNair played 27 times under him
  • Lingard played 41 times under him
  • A 19/20 year old Martial scored 17 goals under him
  • Luke Shaw was starting to show form until his horror injury
  • Debuts given to Love, Poole, Weir, Reece James, etc.
He would have loved Greenwood. Bad timing for him that Greenwood was only 14 when he was here.

We were recruiting talents like TFM and Chong even back then. But we‘ve ramped it up recently ahead of Brexit.
 
LVG was just massively unfortunate with his timing of coming here. He got way too much shit from our fans and I think with a better squad he’d have slayed it.
 
Prodigal7 said:
LVG was just massively unfortunate with his timing of coming here. He got way too much shit from our fans and I think with a better squad he’d have slayed it.
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I would agree. A better crop of Academy players came through just after he left.

He would have liked O’Connor, Laird, Garner, Galbraith, Gomes, Chong and Greenwood.

LvG had flaws such as being too loyal to Rooney. And he was always up against it due to the majority of United fans buying into a “United way”, when in fact the United way should be winning trophies, giving youngsters an opportunity and playing an effective brand of football. It doesn’t have to be exactly what Ferguson did. Klopp isn’t Paisley.

LvG is the one manager we’ve had post Ferguson who had a clear identity. I personally like having possession of the ball. Whether I‘m playing or watching Football. There was a platform to build on. We knew how to control games for large spells, but lacked a cutting edge. Had he ditched Rooney and been given the chance to build on The FA Cup success, it would have been interesting to see how he would have done the following season. He might have converted Memphis to the position he now plays at Lyon. Mata played his best football at United under him. Martial did too until last season. But 17 goals at 19/20 is more impressive than 23 goals as an experienced 24 year old, really. He also suffered from having to deal with a very green Woodward who was only a year into the job and was apparently behind the Falcao signing. Then you had his ridiculous Schweinsteiger comment. LvG was a very charismatic personality. His outbursts were box office! Had he been able to find a way for us to turn our possession into more goals, we were on to a good thing. But lots of fan didn’t get what his style was. Very alien compared Ferguson’s. He is my favourite post Ferguson manager. I’m not saying he would have won the league in 2016/2017 or 2017/2018, but there’s always a what if surrounding his departure. Getting the best of Liverpool is his defining quality from his tenure.
 
Footy van de Geek said:
I would agree. A better crop of Academy players came through just after he left.

He would have liked O’Connor, Laird, Garner, Galbraith, Gomes, Chong and Greenwood.

LvG had flaws such as being too loyal to Rooney. And he was always up against it due to the majority United fans buying into a “United way”, when in fact the United way should be winning trophies, giving youngsters an opportunity and playing an effective brand of football. It doesn’t have to be exactly what Ferguson did. Klopp isn’t Paisley.

LvG is the one manager we’ve had post Ferguson who had a clear identity. I personally like having possession of the ball. Whether I‘m playing or watching Football. There was a platform to build on. We knew how to control games for large spells, but lacked a cutting edge. Had he ditched Rooney and been given the chance to build on The FA Cup success, it would have been interesting to see how he would have done the following season. He might have converted Memphis to the position he now plays at Lyon. Mata played his best football at United under him. Martial did too until last season. But 17 goals at 19/20 is more impressive than 22 goals as an experienced 24 year old, really. He also suffered from having to deal with a very green Woodward who was only a year into the job and was apparently behind the Falcao signing. Then you had his ridiculous Schweinsteiger comment. LvG was a very charismatic personality. His outbursts were box office! Had he been able to find a way for us to turn our possession into more goals, we were on to a good thing. But lots of fan didn’t get what his style was. Very alien compared Ferguson’s. He is my favourite post Ferguson manager. I’m not saying he would have won the league in 2016/2017 or 2017/2018, but there’s always a what if surrounding his departure. Getting the best of Liverpool is his defining quality from his tenure.
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He may have been told by Woodward that Rooney has to play for commercial reasons though. That kind of thing does happen. 100% agree with the rest of the paragraph. I think at that point our fans were still feeling entitled to challenging for a title and didn’t understand how lacking we were in the squad.
 
Sean_RedDevil said:
To lose against Chelsea is no shame and that we were in the match until the final whistle is a positive point.

But where were Hoogewerf and Emeran :confused:

I'm really looking forward to this years FA-Youth Cup :drool:

:(
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Hoogewerf played against Salford in the friendly so I supposed he still need to get back to full fitness.
 
It does not matter how good the U23 team is as a unit. That's not its purpose. Just a nice bonus. I'd rather it be a crap team but produce 3-4 players good enough for the first team every other year.
 
Chelsea (and City) sides tend to be more well-drilled than us at this level. Not sure why people even surprise, and Neil Ryan is well-known as being naive defensively. I feel like most of the times after we play them this place act as if we become the worst academy side in the league overnight.
 
Footy van de Geek said:
Why under LvG? He was even more trusting of youth players and youngsters than Ole is.

  • Riley played 2 times under him
  • Powell played 3 times under him
  • TFM played 10 times under him
  • Varela played 11 times under him
  • Blackett played 12 times under him
  • Andreas played 13 times under him
  • CBJ played 16 times under him
  • Rashford played 18 times under him
  • Wilson played 19 times under him
  • McNair played 27 times under him
  • Lingard played 41 times under him
  • A 19/20 year old Martial scored 17 goals under him
  • Luke Shaw was starting to show form until his horror injury
  • Debuts given to Love, Poole, Weir, Reece James, etc.
He would have loved Greenwood. Bad timing for him that Greenwood was only 14 when he was here.

We were recruiting talents like TFM and Chong even back then. But we‘ve ramped it up recently ahead of Brexit.
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I take your point, but I was worried that the investment in the academy would be run down. But possibly the board would have tried to keep the academy flourishing even if the current manager was reluctant to use players from it.

Those players you mentioned were already in the academy when Van Gaal was in charge, and indeed, he did give a lot of players the opportunity to play, so perhaps my concerns regarding Van Gaal were a little misplaced, but I certainly felt that under José it was more under threat, seeing as José seems to favour a quick fix policy.
 
Thing is Chelsea and City prioritise winning at this level which means taking the most physically gifted kids around who are basically men against boys at that level. Utd on the other hand prioritse actually getting promising players who are technically good and who can long term be turned into first team players. There’s a reason why we continue to produce the best players in the country despite not sweeping up the trophies at this level. To be honest I know which strategy matters most...
 
TrustInJanuzaj said:
Thing is Chelsea and City prioritise winning at this level which means taking the most physically gifted kids around who are basically men against boys at that level. Utd on the other hand prioritse actually getting promising players who are technically good and who can long term be turned into first team players. There’s a reason why we continue to produce the best players in the country despite not sweeping up the trophies at this level. To be honest I know which strategy matters most...
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Yes, though I dont watch youth team football much I do like to read threads like on here and follow the youth players. Was good to see a full game liek last night and that was very much the conclusion I came away with.

Thought Chelsea were more drilled as a team and seemed physically stronger. Individuallly the right back and captain for them looked like excellent prospects, but I wasnt disappointed by us at all, especially considering our probably best side now with the investment we have made would have been a very different side.

Though we didnt create many chances and individually didnt even play that well overall, could see glimpses of certain players and it did seem to be the hyped ones, that gave me excitement for the future.

I think Mengi looks a fantastic prospect.

Mejbri looks far further away fromfirst team football than some of the initial hype but I did like his ability to carry the ball in tight spaces and he is always lookin gup and very eager, bags of potential there.

Shoetire looked like a player playing above his age group to me. Outmuscled quite a lot of the time, but there were glimpses of excellent technique still to see with him on the ball.

There were other players that looked decent to me, such as Elanga but the three mentioned, they just look to have something to really develop into proper players, of course a long way to go for all of them, but adding the SPanish left back, Pellestri, Diallo to come and a few other names I hear of in the youth team now...to the likes of Greenwood, fast forward 2/3years and I think we really could see ahandful of players havinga good impact on the fist team with a maybe 2/3 genuine star players. Good hope for the future within what we already have
 
Drainy said:
given the fact that our left back was challenging a lump up towards a guy who is like twice his size in the middle of the pitch, I am minded towards the former.
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Well - to be honest, our main problem when we struggled defensively was our wide midfielders not doing their defensive duties so
 
no one exceptional talents (ala Scholes, Pogba, Greenwood etc) in this group if truth be told.

Still there is some talent though

might be a few future squad players in the making
 
GueRed said:
no one exceptional talents (ala Scholes, Pogba, Greenwood etc) in this group if truth be told.

Still there is some talent though

might be a few future squad players in the making
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Rashford was never an exceptional talent, mind... Look where he is now.

Point is, you can't predict how good a player a kid is going to be. They develop and stuff happens in the meantime that changes the whole paradigm.
 
georgipep said:
Rashford was never an exceptional talent, mind... Look where he is now.

Point is, you can't predict how good a player a kid is going to be. They develop and stuff happens in the meantime that changes the whole paradigm.
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If they're exceptional like Giggs, Scholes oh you know they'll make it, its a matter of when not if. I still remember those days

im not writing anyone off

basically all i am saying is lets not carried away

I remember i got loads of stick in 2011 when i said Tom Cleverly will never be as good as Scholes on another forum :lol:

Fosu Mensah another heralded by internet fans as the next big thing a few years ago

i dont know fans keep doing this?!!?:wenger:
 
Grande said:
Are you basing that on the Chelsea game or have you seen Mengi, Mejbri and Shoretire a lot?
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I've watched ALOT of Mengi and Mejbri the last 12 months. I watch every Under 23's game. Mengi looks closet to the first team. He had a great season last year.

Neither look 'exceptional' at this point though

Shortire still very early days. he belongs in the younger age bracket i dont watch the under 18s
 
Thought we were poor..To put it into perspective though, Greenwood, Pellestri and Diallo are all AGE eligible for that team. Obviously not all eligible last night for different reasons, but theres some real talent that didnt play last night that would be young enough to be eligible.

Mengi
Greenwood
Diallo
Pellestri
Elanga

Are all the same year group, id struggle to find any 5 from any one club in the world that id take ahead of them 5 in that Sept 2001 to Sept 2002 year group.
 
Adnan said:
They nullified Elanga with ease. Hopefully it'll be a learning curve for him. And I don't see what the fuss is about Shoretire who looks a decent player but nothing more.
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I see your point. A good player, but I don't see what type of player he is becoming. He is like an attacking midfielder, thus he doesn't score or assist much, or even create much. At best a new Lingard, even though I thought Lingard was better in the academy.
 
georgipep said:
Rashford was never an exceptional talent, mind... Look where he is now.

Point is, you can't predict how good a player a kid is going to be. They develop and stuff happens in the meantime that changes the whole paradigm.
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Mickson said:
I see your point. A good player, but I don't see what type of player he is becoming. He is like an attacking midfielder, thus he doesn't score or assist much, or even create much. At best a new Lingard, even though I thought Lingard was better in the academy.
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There's some silly things written on this forum.
 
I don't understand why we did not play Dillon Hoogewerf last night?
 
georgipep said:
Rashford was never an exceptional talent, mind... Look where he is now.

Point is, you can't predict how good a player a kid is going to be. They develop and stuff happens in the meantime that changes the whole paradigm.
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I loved Rashford from the first time i saw him live when he banged a free kick in against Spurs at White Hart Lane in the FA Youth Cup 5 years ago

You could see he was a top talent! tbh

so called youth experts and fans at the time were still 'Marcus who?' (McTominay was in that squad too)

They were still all raving about Fosu fecking Mensah! :lol:
 
RedPhil1957 said:
you know this how?
There's some silly and arrogant things written on this forum.
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Because I haven't missed a televised game for about 7 years and I strongly believe in my ability to rate youngsters, so I doubt someone who just writes laugh smileys instead of coming with an argument knows more. Also, the guy with zero intelligence thought it was a disaster to say that Shoretire may end up like Lingard. Talking about delusional. If he becomes half the player Lingard is, then it's good. Not to say the fact that Shoretire had a very poor goal and assist ratio last season, he hasn't assisted or scored a goal yet this season. I can take someone who questions me with decent arguments, but when it's some fool then it becomes pathetic.
 
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GueRed said:
I loved Rashford from the first time i saw him live when he banged a free kick in against Spurs at White Hart Lane in the FA Youth Cup 5 years ago

You could see he was a top talent! tbh

so called youth experts and fans at the time were still 'Marcus who?' (McTominay was in that squad too)

They were still all raving about Fosu fecking Mensah! :lol:
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I loved Petrucci. That doesn't change facts. There are plenty of young talents that never made it (at all or to the level they were expected) while a lot of 'lesser talents' actually blossomed and became fantastic players. It's not as simple as 'great talent = great player' and 'average/poor talent = average/poor player'.
 
Mickson said:
Because I haven't missed a televised game for about 7 years and I strongly believe in my ability to rate youngsters, so I doubt someone who just writes laugh smileys instead of coming with an argument knows more. Also, the guy with zero intelligence thought it was a disaster to say that Shoretire may end up like Lingard. Talking about delusional. If he becomes half the player Lingard is, then it's good. Not to say the fact that Shoretire had a very poor goal and assist ratio last season, he hasn't assisted or scored a goal yet this season. I can take someone who questions me with decent arguments, but when it's some fool then it becomes pathetic.
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:lol: :lol: :lol: Donald is that you?
 
To anyone who watched their first Youth game yesterday and now thinks we are vastly inferior to other academies, don't fret. This was a unique game where we could only use player registered last season. We have loaned out and promoted so many of last years team that we were lucky to have been so competitive.
 
Mickson said:
Because I haven't missed a televised game for about 7 years and I strongly believe in my ability to rate youngsters, so I doubt someone who just writes laugh smileys instead of coming with an argument knows more. Also, the guy with zero intelligence thought it was a disaster to say that Shoretire may end up like Lingard. Talking about delusional. If he becomes half the player Lingard is, then it's good. Not to say the fact that Shoretire had a very poor goal and assist ratio last season, he hasn't assisted or scored a goal yet this season. I can take someone who questions me with decent arguments, but when it's some fool then it becomes pathetic.
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Don't think it makes too much sense comparing Lingard & Shoretire when Shoretire always plays at least 2 years above his age group & this season is playing 6/7 years above his age group while Lingard often played down an age group because of his size. Shoretire usually stands out like a sore thumb when playing in his own age group & generally finds it too easy which is why he doesn't play in it. This isn't just aimed at you but there seems to be a strange desire on this & other forums to downplay Shoretire's ability because people have heard the hype about him while usually ignoring the fact that he's generally the youngest player on the pitch as if it's irrelevant. I'm sure if people who had heard the hype about him had only watched Greenwood in the FA Youth Cup against Derby County a couple of years ago when he was taken off at half time there would be similar comments.
 
Mickson said:
Because I haven't missed a televised game for about 7 years and I strongly believe in my ability to rate youngsters, so I doubt someone who just writes laugh smileys instead of coming with an argument knows more. Also, the guy with zero intelligence thought it was a disaster to say that Shoretire may end up like Lingard. Talking about delusional. If he becomes half the player Lingard is, then it's good. Not to say the fact that Shoretire had a very poor goal and assist ratio last season, he hasn't assisted or scored a goal yet this season. I can take someone who questions me with decent arguments, but when it's some fool then it becomes pathetic.
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I have followed United since 1957 been to many reserve / academy fixtures over the years, even saw Best play in reserves (a privilege) however since i moved to other side of country my knowledge is now MUTV only. I will make three points; in my opinion you cannot make good judgement especially about young players without seeing them live a number of times, our coaches have proved to be excellent judges over the years with very few mistakes about an individuals potential and these days there are many on this forum that know far more about current academy players than I do.
 
jb8521 said:
Don't think it makes too much sense comparing Lingard & Shoretire when Shoretire always plays at least 2 years above his age group & this season is playing 6/7 years above his age group while Lingard often played down an age group because of his size. Shoretire usually stands out like a sore thumb when playing in his own age group & generally finds it too easy which is why he doesn't play in it. This isn't just aimed at you but there seems to be a strange desire on this & other forums to downplay Shoretire's ability because people have heard the hype about him while usually ignoring the fact that he's generally the youngest player on the pitch as if it's irrelevant. I'm sure if people who had heard the hype about him had only watched Greenwood in the FA Youth Cup against Derby County a couple of years ago when he was taken off at half time there would be similar comments.
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I'm comparing them to style and potential. I know Shoretire is playing over his age group and he is a good player and a good talent. I have never downplayed him, or his potential. If he ends up like Lingard, as I said, then that's a fantastic achievement. However, I don't see him in the Greenwood, Pogba, Morrison among others bracket. For me, he does not score or assist enough. Of course, he has the potential to do so more, but I don't see him doing it good enough to be a star. My comparison with Lingard is mostly that he keeps things ticking, is very good with the ball, and floats around but maybe not have the final ball. IMO U23 this season is a step too far for him. I think he has been underwhelming so far. That's not his fault, though. He's just not ready for that which few by his ages are.

RedPhil1957 said:
I have followed United since 1957 been to many reserve / academy fixtures over the years, even saw Best play in reserves (a privilege) however since i moved to other side of country my knowledge is now MUTV only. I will make three points; in my opinion you cannot make good judgement especially about young players without seeing them live a number of times, our coaches have proved to be excellent judges over the years with very few mistakes about an individuals potential and these days there are many on this forum that know far more about current academy players than I do.
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I agree that it helps to see them live. I have seen most of the youth team players now live, but not very often. You do get a different perspective of watching football live though. I would say you can still get a pretty clear picture of who will make it and who will not. You can never say for certain, but you can't that by watching them live either. Scott McTominay is one player I never saw live and one player I have been wrong about. You make an interesting point, it's seldom United is wrong. Could be Shawcross, but it's hard to say that it was a disgrace. Maybe Michael Keane would be useful but in the end, we often get it right. But it's not like we were screaming that Keane wouldn't be sold.
 
jb8521 said:
Don't think it makes too much sense comparing Lingard & Shoretire when Shoretire always plays at least 2 years above his age group & this season is playing 6/7 years above his age group while Lingard often played down an age group because of his size. Shoretire usually stands out like a sore thumb when playing in his own age group & generally finds it too easy which is why he doesn't play in it. This isn't just aimed at you but there seems to be a strange desire on this & other forums to downplay Shoretire's ability because people have heard the hype about him while usually ignoring the fact that he's generally the youngest player on the pitch as if it's irrelevant. I'm sure if people who had heard the hype about him had only watched Greenwood in the FA Youth Cup against Derby County a couple of years ago when he was taken off at half time there would be similar comments.
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Watching a lot of Shoretire through the age groups, I personally think he’s regressed a little since they’ve moved him out wide, it doesn’t suit his game, I presume it’s to do with it being a little less physical out on the wing when playing up.
 
Beaucoup said:
Watching a lot of Shoretire through the age groups, I personally think he’s regressed a little since they’ve moved him out wide, it doesn’t suit his game, I presume it’s to do with it being a little less physical out on the wing when playing up.
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Its the 'Rossi' problem. Fergie told him he would be a first teamer playing wide or slightly withdrawn.But the kid wanted to score goals and play up front centrally. I see the same issues with Shoretire. He wants to score and play centrally but he is too small/frail to do it, hence the move out to the wings. United really want him to develop there as they see him a shoe-in for a top winger, but it depends on what goes on in his head. If he adapts mentally, he will make it at United, if not he will unfortunately go the same way as Guiseppi.
 
jb8521 said:
Don't think it makes too much sense comparing Lingard & Shoretire when Shoretire always plays at least 2 years above his age group & this season is playing 6/7 years above his age group while Lingard often played down an age group because of his size. Shoretire usually stands out like a sore thumb when playing in his own age group & generally finds it too easy which is why he doesn't play in it. This isn't just aimed at you but there seems to be a strange desire on this & other forums to downplay Shoretire's ability because people have heard the hype about him while usually ignoring the fact that he's generally the youngest player on the pitch as if it's irrelevant. I'm sure if people who had heard the hype about him had only watched Greenwood in the FA Youth Cup against Derby County a couple of years ago when he was taken off at half time there would be similar comments.
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Exactly.
16-year old Mason Greenwood was not playing for U-23.

Beaucoup said:
Watching a lot of Shoretire through the age groups, I personally think he’s regressed a little since they’ve moved him out wide, it doesn’t suit his game, I presume it’s to do with it being a little less physical out on the wing when playing up.
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It definitely seems like he prefers to operate centrally.
 
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