Yeah it's been incredibly bad from Red Bull. Have to feel for Max here. He was consistently the fastest driver today but Red Bull's mistakes have him starting eighth.
F1 2022 Season
- Thread starter pauldyson1uk
- Start date
I mean, in such a high pressure sport the odd mistake is understandable. Red Bull have been largely faultless all season. Silly mistake no doubt but it only becomes a problem if it’s persistent like at Ferrari.
Max only 2/1 for the win despite being 8th on the grid
I did exactly the same. I just assumed it was to do with this season as so many teams were mystified that RB could introduce a new chassis.
I assume if it’s a serious breach, they think they’ve found a loophole and/ or they assume the punishment will be weak.
I think the links to other sports are difficult as F1 relies so much on the machine, so the driver has been hugely and unfairly advantaged without personally having done anything wrong.
In horse racing, I’m pretty sure a jockey loses their victory if the horse later gets DQ for drug use, even if the jockey clearly knew nothing about it.
Both teams should be seen as innocent until anything concrete is released, but if there are two owners that would blatantly flout the rules for their own gain, it’s Horner and Stroll.
It’s all very strange.
Why are teams talking about it and punishments so publicly before the FIA have released the findings.
Why are RB so adamant they haven’t a few days before we all know.
Are Ferrari & Merc feeling the heat from above for their performances.
This issue would end up going above Horner at RB.
Why are teams talking about it and punishments so publicly before the FIA have released the findings.
Why are RB so adamant they haven’t a few days before we all know.
Are Ferrari & Merc feeling the heat from above for their performances.
This issue would end up going above Horner at RB.
Apparently, there was a suggestion that the FIA was going to gloss all over it to protect the integrity of the championship (pot/kettle/black) ala ferrari oil burning in the seb years. Ferrari (yes irony isnt lost on me) and Mercedes were unhappy about this as RB effectively got a whole season worth of development ahead of them illegally. So they went public with their comments to put FIA in a corner where RB and to a lesser extent AM are punished. Dont forget both RB and AM have been actively recruiting ferrari and mercedes personal. Plus it does take the gloss off max's title especially if he wraps it up in japan. Honda wont want to be assoicated with cheating. So theres some 4d chess going on.
I think FIA are in a corner now and will have to punish both teams with maximum punishments under the rule books. Otherwise the budget cap is dead. If FIA dont set an example then whats to stop ferrari and mercedes developing thier powertrains? Who cares about the rules? Just get a slap on the wrist at the end of a season. Worth it if you can develop an additional 20-30 bhp from your PU.
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Fully expect the FIA to not make the right decisions on this.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/ferrari-and-mercedes-minor-cap-breach-can-have-huge-impact/
Binotto quoted on RB breaking budget cap.
“Apart from implications on last year’s championship there are also implications for the current one,” Binotto told Sky Italia.
“Let’s wait until Wednesday before making a judgement, but whatever amount we are talking about it’s important to understand that even if it is four million, which falls into the category of what is considered a ‘minor breach’, four million is not minor.
“For us, four million represents the development parts for an entire season. Four million means 70 people in a technical department who can come up with and produce solutions that could be worth up to half-a-second a lap.
“So even if we are looking at something considered a ‘minor breach’, it’s not peanuts. We are talking of half-a-second and that advantage is carried forward into subsequent seasons, because while it began in 2021 it still gives a competitive advantage in 2022 and 2023.
“So this is clearly an important matter. It puts the credibility in general [of the cost cap] at stake. I hope that everyone has dealt with this exercise correctly, because otherwise it will be a very big problem to manage.”
Totto quoted on RB budget cap breaking:
“I think the word [minor] is probably not correct because if you’re spending $5million more and you’re still in the minor breach, it still has a big impact on the championship,” said Wolff.
“To give you an idea, we monitor closely which parts are being brought to the track from the top teams every single race [in the] ‘21 season, ‘22 season. And we can see that there are two top teams that are just about the same and there is another that spends more.
“We know exactly that we’re spending three-and-a-half million a year in parts that we bring to the car. And then you can see what difference it makes to spend another 500,000. It would be a big difference.
“We haven’t produced lightweight parts for the car in order to bring us down from a double digit [kg] overweight because we simply haven’t got the money, so we need to do it for next year’s car.
“We can’t homologate a lightweight chassis and bring it in because it’s just two million that we would be over the cap. So you can see every spend more has a performance advantage.
“There is a catalogue of penalties that the FIA needs to decide what’s appropriate [to apply] or whether this goes to the cost cap adjudication panel, which is the governance. We need to see what the outcome is and then one can comment.
“But all the stakeholders in this sport, all the teams that have complied to the regulations, the FIA, Formula 1, need to make sure that these regulations have teeth. Because for the aforementioned reasons, you can gain a real competitive advantage.”
Binotto quoted on RB breaking budget cap.
“Apart from implications on last year’s championship there are also implications for the current one,” Binotto told Sky Italia.
“Let’s wait until Wednesday before making a judgement, but whatever amount we are talking about it’s important to understand that even if it is four million, which falls into the category of what is considered a ‘minor breach’, four million is not minor.
“For us, four million represents the development parts for an entire season. Four million means 70 people in a technical department who can come up with and produce solutions that could be worth up to half-a-second a lap.
“So even if we are looking at something considered a ‘minor breach’, it’s not peanuts. We are talking of half-a-second and that advantage is carried forward into subsequent seasons, because while it began in 2021 it still gives a competitive advantage in 2022 and 2023.
“So this is clearly an important matter. It puts the credibility in general [of the cost cap] at stake. I hope that everyone has dealt with this exercise correctly, because otherwise it will be a very big problem to manage.”
Totto quoted on RB budget cap breaking:
“I think the word [minor] is probably not correct because if you’re spending $5million more and you’re still in the minor breach, it still has a big impact on the championship,” said Wolff.
“To give you an idea, we monitor closely which parts are being brought to the track from the top teams every single race [in the] ‘21 season, ‘22 season. And we can see that there are two top teams that are just about the same and there is another that spends more.
“We know exactly that we’re spending three-and-a-half million a year in parts that we bring to the car. And then you can see what difference it makes to spend another 500,000. It would be a big difference.
“We haven’t produced lightweight parts for the car in order to bring us down from a double digit [kg] overweight because we simply haven’t got the money, so we need to do it for next year’s car.
“We can’t homologate a lightweight chassis and bring it in because it’s just two million that we would be over the cap. So you can see every spend more has a performance advantage.
“There is a catalogue of penalties that the FIA needs to decide what’s appropriate [to apply] or whether this goes to the cost cap adjudication panel, which is the governance. We need to see what the outcome is and then one can comment.
“But all the stakeholders in this sport, all the teams that have complied to the regulations, the FIA, Formula 1, need to make sure that these regulations have teeth. Because for the aforementioned reasons, you can gain a real competitive advantage.”
What is the right decision?
https://www.racefans.net/2022/10/01...credible-salaries-despite-budget-cap-mclaren/
If you think its just binotto and totto then heres seidl quotes on RB and AM breaking the budget cap.
Two Formula 1 teams were able to make “aggressive” approaches to rivals’ staff despite the constraints of the budget cap, says McLaren team principal Andreas Seidl.
“Now it’s simply important that there is full transparency of what is actually happening, because it is clear that if someone is spending more money going beyond the cap, it’s a performance advantage.”
Seidl pointed out McLaren had to lay off staff and cut the pay of others in order to meet the cap, and questioned how two other teams were able to approach their employees with lucrative offers.
"We have an obligation to our people, from the FIA’s side and from our side, because even for a team like us, the introduction of the cost cap meant we had to put some really serious measures in place which were affecting our people. We had to make people redundant as well, we had to ask our people to accept pay cuts or pay freezes, which was very serious."
“At the same time there was, especially from two teams, an incredible aggressive hiring still ongoing, throwing incredible salaries on the table and offering unbelievable company benefit packages where we are all wondering how this is possible in this new world of Formula 1 and our people are obviously challenging us if we do everything right on our side."
Deduction of championship points is among the possible penalties for exceeding the spending limit. Seidl said Formula 1 must be prepared to change the results of past championships if a team is found to have exceeded the budget cap.
“It’s very important that, from the FIA’s side, they make sure that they police them properly, enforce them and put proper penalties in place in case there is any infringement, even if it’s done affecting championship outcomes from the past.”
If you think its just binotto and totto then heres seidl quotes on RB and AM breaking the budget cap.
Two Formula 1 teams were able to make “aggressive” approaches to rivals’ staff despite the constraints of the budget cap, says McLaren team principal Andreas Seidl.
“Now it’s simply important that there is full transparency of what is actually happening, because it is clear that if someone is spending more money going beyond the cap, it’s a performance advantage.”
Seidl pointed out McLaren had to lay off staff and cut the pay of others in order to meet the cap, and questioned how two other teams were able to approach their employees with lucrative offers.
"We have an obligation to our people, from the FIA’s side and from our side, because even for a team like us, the introduction of the cost cap meant we had to put some really serious measures in place which were affecting our people. We had to make people redundant as well, we had to ask our people to accept pay cuts or pay freezes, which was very serious."
“At the same time there was, especially from two teams, an incredible aggressive hiring still ongoing, throwing incredible salaries on the table and offering unbelievable company benefit packages where we are all wondering how this is possible in this new world of Formula 1 and our people are obviously challenging us if we do everything right on our side."
Deduction of championship points is among the possible penalties for exceeding the spending limit. Seidl said Formula 1 must be prepared to change the results of past championships if a team is found to have exceeded the budget cap.
“It’s very important that, from the FIA’s side, they make sure that they police them properly, enforce them and put proper penalties in place in case there is any infringement, even if it’s done affecting championship outcomes from the past.”
the extent of any cheating should be reflected. if they have gained something like half a second a lap then last year, this year and next year should be impacted and they should be penalised in every season that have gained an advantage. retrospective, current and future points deductions is the only thing that hurts them. f1 teams aren’t in the game to make money, having to spend a bit more money doesn’t hurt them.
If RB and AM are found guilty.
RB for 2021:
Exclude RB from 2021 championship and give the title rightfully to hamilton.
RB for 2022:
Points deduction to constructors and drivers championship. No more car upgrades for reat of season.
RB for 2023:
Appropriate handicap to RB for 2023 season i.e. reduced CFD and wind tunnel time or a 12 race ban or something on bring any upgrades to next seasons car.
AM for 2021/2022/2023:
Reduction in CFD and Wind tunnel time. That will hurt them alot as the car is so shit at present.
It's very unsettling reading an entire post waiting for a punchline that never arrives
Maybe that was the punchlineIt's very unsettling reading an entire post waiting for a punchline that never arrives
Somebody also needs to tell the Cnut to stop moaning.
Totaly agree with that but It's the FIA, I'm certain there's a clause or some wording in the rule book which will allow both teams off the hook, they will change it for 2023 to stop it from happening again.
To get attention so the FIA doesn’t do another punishment which doesn’t disclose the extent of the infringement.
They need strong penalties for a deterrent. If teams think they won't penalize you as it would undermine the sport if you go over budget by small amount but significant amount for lap time then you have no budget cap and it's open ended. The sport is ruined if one team is following it and another isn't, that's cheating and not sport.
If a team thinks their championship will be removed they'll think twice about pushing the budget boundaries. FIA have to come out strong if teams have gone over.
If a team thinks their championship will be removed they'll think twice about pushing the budget boundaries. FIA have to come out strong if teams have gone over.
Three things occur to over this.
- The rules currently aren't fit for purpose when 5%, which is $7m is considered "minor". For me there should be 3 levels: trivial (e.g. <100k that can be explained by genuine accounting/procedural errors), major (say up to 5%) and critical (> 5%). Major and critical would both involve mandated points losses/DQs.
- I'm shocked that I'm hearing pundits saying "its unthinkable to change the result for last season". This is completely the opposite of the truth: its unthinkable for it to not be considered. In the olympics people lose retrospectively if they're caught doping. In cycling Lance Armstrong was stripped of all 7 titles over the same. In football Juve were stripped of their titles. If there are serious breaches of rules then sporting penalties must be on the table, else it just becomes a luxury tax. Let's say hypthetically it is revealed that Red Bull paid Massi to help them in the last race in 2021. Would changing the result retrospecticaly then be unthinkable? You'd hope not.
- Will Mercedes and the rest accept another FIA coverup/gloss over? This would be the third after the Ferrari fuel flow issue and Abu Dhabi last year. Surely if RB are in breach and just get a slap on the wrist its just another nail in the coffin of the idea that the FIA are a sporting organization that is willing to enforce its own rules openly and transparently. Might we see a more serious legal challenge? One team might not want to go alone and take on the FIA, but what if half the grid did?
My perspective is all the teams knew for a long time the rules, including potential punishment for going up to 5% over budget. Assuming it is RB that are over, and are within the 5% that seems to be suggested, then the groundwork for punishment has been laid down for ages. Opposition teams are just playing games when they start throwing their toys out the prams, standard F1 storm in a teacup.
Edit: Here's the full breakdown of punishments for an minor overspend <5% or major overspend >5%.
Edit: Here's the full breakdown of punishments for an minor overspend <5% or major overspend >5%.
Because they don't trust the FIA to do the right thing. If it's out in the public eye it will be emphasising if they do nothing.
This is the problem with F1. Rules and punishments should be clear cut. The terms Can and One or More are too wishy-washy for a sport that wants to be taken seriously. Set out the the breach of rules and what the punishment will be before an infringement happens. Leave no room for interpretation or discussion.
Shame I love a wet race, but we never seem to get to see one or it's delayed until the rain has stopped
Stick your wets on and go racing!
Wopw just tuned in. Its fecking coming down innit
Is it me or did they use to race in these sorts of conditions? I know this is rather biblical but it feels anything more than a shower they panic
Wet racing is so much more exciting
Frustrating as United are on at 2, if it does start it'll be right during the match.
Think I might have to stick f1 on record and avoid spoilers. No doubt there will be plenty of crashes/safety cars anyway. Annoying.
Think I might have to stick f1 on record and avoid spoilers. No doubt there will be plenty of crashes/safety cars anyway. Annoying.
Oh please not a safety car start.
Wasn't that bad. It rained much more yesterday.
Ive got both f1 and footy on record. Will get kid off to bed pronto at 6pm so i can have a evening of sport to myself.
No idea but whatever it is the FIA will get it wrong, it will either end up extremely harsh or extremely lenient.
If the budget cap doesn’t lead to significant penalties then don’t have one.
Why couldn't they do a formation lap straight from the garage, then do a normal start? If needed add an extra formation lap?
They go straight from the garage in qualifying
The crowd cheering the SC
They go straight from the garage in qualifying
The crowd cheering the SC
The quote from Alfa in that article stands out to the difference it would make "Alfa Romeo team boss Fred Vasseur told the German publication: “We only have 2.4 million to develop our car during the year.”"
Rain has stopped here at the circuit
Just get on with it
We lost 4-1 and the F1 was rained off so get a movie lined up.
Shame they can't race through the city