F1 2019 season

NM said:
The sport will probably be dead by the time he finishes, but that's not his fault. Red Bull won 5 in a row due to diffusers, Mercedes winning because of regulations and no competition etc.

The reason some (including me) struggle to put him in the GOAT conversation is that there was no competition. He hasn't done anything as impressive as Schumacher 97, 98 or 2006 IMO. Take a car that's clearly 2nd best (by a long margin) and challenge a really quick rival (Hakkinen / Alonso).

Vettel's been shown up, and Rosberg, Massa and Bottas are hardly tough challenges
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It's arguable that last year Ferrari had the better car (albeit not by much) and in 2006 after Renault's damper was banned, the Ferrari was miles quicker IMO but I take the point. Similarly in 2009, although he wasn't in the title picture he won twice in an absolute dog of a car so he can drag something to victory that has no business being there.

The thing that Lewis has to put him up there with Michael, Ayrton, etc (aside from the statistics) is that when he needs to he'll completely and utterly blow the competition out of the water. Whether it's a pole lap so utterly brilliant and miles quicker than anyone or whether he's been on the back foot during the weekend and it gets to the race, he seems to always pull it out of the bag nowadays.

I think that's broken Vettel more than Mercedes being so peerless and Ferrari pulling a Ferrari, it's the fact that Lewis just breaks his back all the time. I think if roles were reversed and Seb was in the Merc, Lewis would still be pulling poles out of the Ferrari, at least at the minute.

Right now he's on top of the world by a long way but he wasn't always, his last few seasons at McLaren highlighted that much. I think he's massively matured as these titles have come flowing in to the point where he'll likely have this year sewn up with ages and ages to go. It's just gonna be interesting to see if he keeps pushing once the title is done and dusted because that's a formality.

Schumacher in 97 and 98 was amazing though I'll grant you that. Especially Hungary in 1998 when he needed to basically bang in 20 qualifying laps in a row to win the race and he smashed it. Absolutely amazing to watch.
 
matherto said:
It's arguable that last year Ferrari had the better car (albeit not by much) and in 2006 after Renault's damper was banned, the Ferrari was miles quicker IMO but I take the point. Similarly in 2009, although he wasn't in the title picture he won twice in an absolute dog of a car so he can drag something to victory that has no business being there.

The thing that Lewis has to put him up there with Michael, Ayrton, etc (aside from the statistics) is that when he needs to he'll completely and utterly blow the competition out of the water. Whether it's a pole lap so utterly brilliant and miles quicker than anyone or whether he's been on the back foot during the weekend and it gets to the race, he seems to always pull it out of the bag nowadays.

I think that's broken Vettel more than Mercedes being so peerless and Ferrari pulling a Ferrari, it's the fact that Lewis just breaks his back all the time. I think if roles were reversed and Seb was in the Merc, Lewis would still be pulling poles out of the Ferrari, at least at the minute.

Right now he's on top of the world by a long way but he wasn't always, his last few seasons at McLaren highlighted that much. I think he's massively matured as these titles have come flowing in to the point where he'll likely have this year sewn up with ages and ages to go. It's just gonna be interesting to see if he keeps pushing once the title is done and dusted because that's a formality.

Schumacher in 97 and 98 was amazing though I'll grant you that. Especially Hungary in 1998 when he needed to basically bang in 20 qualifying laps in a row to win the race and he smashed it. Absolutely amazing to watch.
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No doubt that Schumacher was very good. But the difference between him and Hamilton is the Michael used to crash his car reasonably often whereas Lewis tends to manage to control his car better.
 
Buster15 said:
No doubt that Schumacher was very good. But the difference between him and Hamilton is the Michael used to crash his car reasonably often whereas Lewis tends to manage to control his car better.
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This is literally the most nonsensical argument i've ever heard to promote Lewis over Schumacher. In fact, aside from 2010 to 2012, you can count on one hand the amount of times schumacher crashed his car (a few of which were not his fault) between 2000 and 2006.

Also, it would have been interesting to see how many races and poles Schumacher and Senna could have won if they were provided 20 odd races a year to achieve those results. For the vast majority of their careers both drivers raced on 15-16 races per season, both in periods where they had the dominate car.
 
Buster15 said:
No doubt that Schumacher was very good. But the difference between him and Hamilton is the Michael used to crash his car reasonably often whereas Lewis tends to manage to control his car better.
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:lol:
I get that you like Hamilton but calm down FFS. It's also easier to not crash your car when your half a second quicker than the field, versus chasing a car half a second faster.

You seem to have watched F1 a long time. How would you rate Hakkinen? I always thought he was probably one of the quickest I''ve seen.
 
NM said:
:lol:
I get that you like Hamilton but calm down FFS. It's also easier to not crash your car when your half a second quicker than the field, versus chasing a car half a second faster.

You seem to have watched F1 a long time. How would you rate Hakkinen? I always thought he was probably one of the quickest I''ve seen.
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Mika :drool:
 
NM said:
:lol:
I get that you like Hamilton but calm down FFS. It's also easier to not crash your car when your half a second quicker than the field, versus chasing a car half a second faster.

You seem to have watched F1 a long time. How would you rate Hakkinen? I always thought he was probably one of the quickest I''ve seen.
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It would have been amazing to see how much better he could have been if not for that incident in 95 which many consider impacted his ability. Still, 2x WDC and a decent human being to boot. I always admired the respect he and Michael had for one another. Two great drivers who pushed each other to the absolute limit and he was certainly one of the best drivers i've ever seen. You have to be to beat Michael head to head. I think Mika retired way too early, but it could also be that he was burnt out racing Michael relentlessly for 4 seasons in the McLaren and he wouldnt have enjoyed what unfolded in 2002.
 
mariachi-19 said:
It would have been amazing to see how much better he could have been if not for that incident in 95 which many consider impacted his ability. Still, 2x WDC and a decent human being to boot. I always admired the respect he and Michael had for one another. Two great drivers who pushed each other to the absolute limit and he was certainly one of the best drivers i've ever seen. You have to be to beat Michael head to head. I think Mika retired way too early, but it could also be that he was burnt out racing Michael relentlessly for 4 seasons in the McLaren and he wouldnt have enjoyed what unfolded in 2002.
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Yeah exactly. He was almost unflappable (other than the 1 time he cried when he thought he was off camera). I think competing with Michael burnt him out. In all honesty, 97 - 2000 was what made me love the sport. The best driver vs the best car made for a lot of drama.
 
Ubik said:
Mika :drool:
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It's so weird.

I was a huge Damon fan so I hated Schumi growing up but then McLaren won that opening race in 1998 so dominantly that I hated them and began to love Schumi so I don't think I ever really appreciated how good Mika was. I hated McLaren but then Button joined them and I became a massive fan and now I'm a big Lewis fan despite really not liking him because he raced for McLaren at the start of his career.

Let's just remember this absolute pearler of driver ability from both of them. Michael had massive, massive respect for Mika which tells you everything you need to know considering the way he felt about the rest of his rivals.

 
Buster15 said:
No doubt that Schumacher was very good. But the difference between him and Hamilton is the Michael used to crash his car reasonably often whereas Lewis tends to manage to control his car better.
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I’m sorry, but this is a nonsense argument. For one, Hamilton rarely drives at full pelt. He doesn’t need to. Modern F1 racing doesn’t demand it. It’s more about management. Secondly the cars post Redbull dominance have been a lot lot lot more planted. Try driving cars of Schumacher/Senna era in a sim racer compared to this (I know it’s a sim, but they are known to be decently accurate representations) and you’ll see how much harder those cars with MORE HORSEPOWER and LESSER GRIP were to handle.

I will give credence to the argument that Hamilton might be on Schumachers level. But greater? You can’t prove that till you put them in the same car. Unfortunately that is likely to never happen.
 
Krits said:
I’m sorry, but this is a nonsense argument. For one, Hamilton rarely drives at full pelt. He doesn’t need to. Modern F1 racing doesn’t demand it. It’s more about management. Secondly the cars post Redbull dominance have been a lot lot lot more planted. Try driving cars of Schumacher/Senna era in a sim racer compared to this (I know it’s a sim, but they are known to be decently accurate representations) and you’ll see how much harder those cars with MORE HORSEPOWER and LESSER GRIP were to handle.

I will give credence to the argument that Hamilton might be on Schumachers level. But greater? You can’t prove that till you put them in the same car. Unfortunately that is likely to never happen.
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Its not just that, today's f1 cars have the most outrageous differentials and electronics packages to play with. These cars might not have Traction control, but with a ridiculously good technician you can effectively engineer a form of traction control via throttle and fuelling manipulation (which is effectively what TC is) through the electronics package. So effectively, you can manipulate the butterflies in the throttle bodies to come on more slowly lower in the RPM range and increase fuelling as the car revs higher in the range. You can also adjust it for each specific gear where you dont require the response to be so dull early in the rev range as the downforce prevents the car from stepping out.

Dont get me wrong, F1 has had this tech for a long period of time (even in Schumacher's day) but what we have now is proper space age stuff.
 
mariachi-19 said:
This is literally the most nonsensical argument i've ever heard to promote Lewis over Schumacher. In fact, aside from 2010 to 2012, you can count on one hand the amount of times schumacher crashed his car (a few of which were not his fault) between 2000 and 2006.

Also, it would have been interesting to see how many races and poles Schumacher and Senna could have won if they were provided 20 odd races a year to achieve those results. For the vast majority of their careers both drivers raced on 15-16 races per season, both in periods where they had the dominate car.
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You have picked out one of a number of posts that I have made about Lewis Hamilton.
Anyway. I think that you completely underestimate the value to the team of not crashing the car as well as making minimal driving errors.
Winning is all about consistency and whether you like it or not Lewis is by far and away the most consistent driver of his age.
 
Buster15 said:
You have picked out one of a number of posts that I have made about Lewis Hamilton.
Anyway. I think that you completely underestimate the value to the team of not crashing the car as well as making minimal driving errors.
Winning is all about consistency and whether you like it or not Lewis is by far and away the most consistent driver of his age.
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Michael Schumacher won 7wdc and 91 races in a career that spanned 14 years... Im pretty certain he knows how to drive a formula 1 car and is widely considered better than most at it...

I'd also very much like to see anybody walk into Ferrari and hear anything bad about Michael Schumacher as a team player. The bloke use to get access to Enzo's private house in the middle of Fiarano that nobody other than Enzo and his family has ever had access to...

I've said it once and i'll say it again, Schumacher and Senna would break Hamilton.
 
IAmAWinner said:
What has happened to Gasly. Not gonna lie, I thought he could be a big deal, after his last season, but he has been hopeless. Verstappen is ruining his career. Speaking of Verstappen, I actually think he has been the best driver this year so far, Red Bull is closer to the midfield than Mercedes, yet he is often beating at least one Ferrari driver in the race. Would love to see him in a merc to battle it out with Lewis, before he slows down.
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He's matured this year for sure. If Vettel doesn't get his act together I wonder if Ferrari will go after him?
 
For me. Sen>Sch>Ham>>>Alo>>Vet
Missing a few drivers but those seem to be those being discussed.
Ham was outrageously unlucky with engine problems when rosberg won, was a stupid tire call (and a phenomenal teammate taking points away) from winning his rookie year. 1pt ffs!Hed be level with Sch already. Got lucky against Massa though!
 
This heat is going to make things interesting, could see some cars giving up on brakes/engine.
 
Toad said:
Now Vettel... no damage but still went off
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And some people think that the current F1 cars are too easy to drive.
So many things to think about - limit of adhesion, brake balance, car balance, aero, harvesting energy, battery deployment, steering wheel settings and what all the controls are for, tactics, tyre management, spacial awareness etc. All that at the same time as driving the car with close to 1000hp around difficult tracks.
The fact that Lewis Hamilton makes it look easy is down to his brilliance and not that the car is easy to drive.
 
Buster15 said:
And some people think that the current F1 cars are too easy to drive.
So many things to think about - limit of adhesion, brake balance, car balance, aero, harvesting energy, battery deployment, steering wheel settings and what all the controls are for, tactics, tyre management, spacial awareness etc. All that at the same time as driving the car with close to 1000hp around difficult tracks.
The fact that Lewis Hamilton makes it look easy is down to his brilliance and not that the car is easy to drive.
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:lol::lol:

Everyone knows they are easier FFS. Are you Hamilton's personal PR? He made a mistake today too - about 15 other drivers didn't.
 
NM said:
:lol::lol:

Everyone knows they are easier FFS. Are you Hamilton's personal PR? He made a mistake today too - about 15 other drivers didn't.
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Everyone. How do you know. Have you even spoken to a racing driver or are you just making it up.
And easier. Easier than what precisely.
Yet another wild statement with absolutely nothing to back it up.
 
Buster15 said:
Everyone. How do you know. Have you even spoken to a racing driver or are you just making it up.
And easier. Easier than what precisely.
Yet another wild statement with absolutely nothing to back it up.
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And what do you have to back up yours? I wonder how much Hamilton's paying you? He doesn't need to. He's the best on the grid.
 
NM said:
And what do you have to back up yours? I wonder how much Hamilton's paying you? He doesn't need to. He's the best on the grid.
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First sensible thing you have said all night.
 
RedBull Ring is so short that we might see a surprise if one of the Ferrari or Red Bull lights up qualifying.

Otherwise it's hard to look past Lewis.
 
Buster15 said:
And some people think that the current F1 cars are too easy to drive.
So many things to think about - limit of adhesion, brake balance, car balance, aero, harvesting energy, battery deployment, steering wheel settings and what all the controls are for, tactics, tyre management, spacial awareness etc. All that at the same time as driving the car with close to 1000hp around difficult tracks.
The fact that Lewis Hamilton makes it look easy is down to his brilliance and not that the car is easy to drive.
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Here, have it from someone who has driven both Modern and Schumi time cars.. He clearly says that they don't drive at the limit anymore. Yes, the challenge is different. But it is a lot harder to spin or overcook a turn/breaking point when you are not driving at the limit. I think you're being too biased in your love for Hamilton when you ignore this point. I and other people have agreed he is a very quick and probable one of the top 3-5 drivers in the sport. But to base that on just him not spinning out often is BS. The sport has changed which is what all us fans hate about it now. To me after the Schumi vs Hakkinen era I have never truly loved the sport. I still watch almost every race out of some hope that one day I'll see a classic race. Check out Nico Rosbergs latest video on YouTube. One of the point he mentions in his ways to make F1 fun again is to re-introduce refuelling. Because the cars can be lighter and the drivers can be much closer to the limits.

https://www.grandprix247.com/2016/05/12/massa-modern-f1-cars-are-not-easy-to-drive/

EDIT: Just download the latest f1 2019 game. They have classic cars from all era's in there. Try driving around with them with the assists turned off. You'll see the difference. Even though the code master game isn't supposed to be the most accurate sim most people agree that it is a fair representation of it.
 
Krits said:
Here, have it from someone who has driven both Modern and Schumi time cars.. He clearly says that they don't drive at the limit anymore. Yes, the challenge is different. But it is a lot harder to spin or overcook a turn/breaking point when you are not driving at the limit. I think you're being too biased in your love for Hamilton when you ignore this point. I and other people have agreed he is a very quick and probable one of the top 3-5 drivers in the sport. But to base that on just him not spinning out often is BS. The sport has changed which is what all us fans hate about it now. To me after the Schumi vs Hakkinen era I have never truly loved the sport. I still watch almost every race out of some hope that one day I'll see a classic race. Check out Nico Rosbergs latest video on YouTube. One of the point he mentions in his ways to make F1 fun again is to re-introduce refuelling. Because the cars can be lighter and the drivers can be much closer to the limits.

https://www.grandprix247.com/2016/05/12/massa-modern-f1-cars-are-not-easy-to-drive/
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Also, it was only last week when Hamilton himself was bemoaning the cars and saying they should be harder to drive to put drivers back on physical limits.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/hamilton-f1-cars-are-not-hard-enough-to-drive/
 
Buster15 said:
And some people think that the current F1 cars are too easy to drive.
So many things to think about - limit of adhesion, brake balance, car balance, aero, harvesting energy, battery deployment, steering wheel settings and what all the controls are for, tactics, tyre management, spacial awareness etc. All that at the same time as driving the car with close to 1000hp around difficult tracks.
The fact that Lewis Hamilton makes it look easy is down to his brilliance and not that the car is easy to drive.
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Really? aside from energy harvesting and steering wheel settings (which by the way, the shit tonne of engineers sitting in the drivers box directing them where to have each dial sort of removes that thought) has been a part of F1 since... forever

In fact, these cars are not even the most powerful ever witnessed in f1. That belongs to the mid 80's turbo era where the BMW was in qualifying trim, rumored to pumping out anywhere between 1200-1300 bhp. In a fecking car with a foot clutch and H pattern manual gearbox with no traction control and 80's brakes, aero and tyres. And this is excluding the fact we're talking about 1980's turbos where the concept of minimizing lag was not really thought of, only to the point by adding a supercharger to the engine (not used in f1 but in Group B WRC).

In 2004, the Ferrari and BMW were rumored to be close to 1000bhp from a natural aspirated v10 (IE no lag) with grooved tyres and aero that was extremely limited by today's standards.

I think when Christian Horner is seriously concerned about the direction F1 is heading, we should be worried.
 
Krits said:
Here, have it from someone who has driven both Modern and Schumi time cars.. He clearly says that they don't drive at the limit anymore. Yes, the challenge is different. But it is a lot harder to spin or overcook a turn/breaking point when you are not driving at the limit. I think you're being too biased in your love for Hamilton when you ignore this point. I and other people have agreed he is a very quick and probable one of the top 3-5 drivers in the sport. But to base that on just him not spinning out often is BS. The sport has changed which is what all us fans hate about it now. To me after the Schumi vs Hakkinen era I have never truly loved the sport. I still watch almost every race out of some hope that one day I'll see a classic race. Check out Nico Rosbergs latest video on YouTube. One of the point he mentions in his ways to make F1 fun again is to re-introduce refuelling. Because the cars can be lighter and the drivers can be much closer to the limits.

https://www.grandprix247.com/2016/05/12/massa-modern-f1-cars-are-not-easy-to-drive/

EDIT: Just download the latest f1 2019 game. They have classic cars from all era's in there. Try driving around with them with the assists turned off. You'll see the difference. Even though the code master game isn't supposed to be the most accurate sim most people agree that it is a fair representation of it.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your extremely interesting input.
I bow to your far superior knowledge.
As I have mentioned before I certainly don't base my opinion of Hamilton on his not spinning or crashing as often as others.
But as a proud English man I make no excuses for my admiration of him.
 
mariachi-19 said:
Really? aside from energy harvesting and steering wheel settings (which by the way, the shit tonne of engineers sitting in the drivers box directing them where to have each dial sort of removes that thought) has been a part of F1 since... forever

In fact, these cars are not even the most powerful ever witnessed in f1. That belongs to the mid 80's turbo era where the BMW was in qualifying trim, rumored to pumping out anywhere between 1200-1300 bhp. In a fecking car with a foot clutch and H pattern manual gearbox with no traction control and 80's brakes, aero and tyres. And this is excluding the fact we're talking about 1980's turbos where the concept of minimizing lag was not really thought of, only to the point by adding a supercharger to the engine (not used in f1 but in Group B WRC).

In 2004, the Ferrari and BMW were rumored to be close to 1000bhp from a natural aspirated v10 (IE no lag) with grooved tyres and aero that was extremely limited by today's standards.

I think when Christian Horner is seriously concerned about the direction F1 is heading, we should be worried.
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I do agree with your last paragraph.
 
mariachi-19 said:
Really? aside from energy harvesting and steering wheel settings (which by the way, the shit tonne of engineers sitting in the drivers box directing them where to have each dial sort of removes that thought) has been a part of F1 since... forever

In fact, these cars are not even the most powerful ever witnessed in f1. That belongs to the mid 80's turbo era where the BMW was in qualifying trim, rumored to pumping out anywhere between 1200-1300 bhp. In a fecking car with a foot clutch and H pattern manual gearbox with no traction control and 80's brakes, aero and tyres. And this is excluding the fact we're talking about 1980's turbos where the concept of minimizing lag was not really thought of, only to the point by adding a supercharger to the engine (not used in f1 but in Group B WRC).

In 2004, the Ferrari and BMW were rumored to be close to 1000bhp from a natural aspirated v10 (IE no lag) with grooved tyres and aero that was extremely limited by today's standards.

I think when Christian Horner is seriously concerned about the direction F1 is heading, we should be worried.
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Nostalgia is not what it used to be...
 
Kyvat end of his fast lap was interesting. Semi ruined by three slow cars, making him go wide off the track
 
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