Existence of God ~ Which is more rational ~ Atheism or Belief in God

[Wibble]

There have been lots of scientific tests of Astrology. All have failed.

One very famous one was conducted by James Randi himself in the late 80's.

Here is a cut and paste from an artilce of his regarding this failure. No doubt you won't believe it.

Mind you, on another program, "Exploring Psychic Powers" of 6/7/89, the well-known professional astrologer we tested there opted to show us that by simply questioning twelve persons born under different "signs," about their life preferences, he could determine what their signs were. That was a test of an astrological claim, designed and suggested by the astrologer himself. Our tests are always performed using the claimed abilities of the applicant. This man stated that he would be using his knowledge of astrology to perform the "sorting" task. It was his idea, his test, his decision. He felt that the validity of at least this aspect of astrology would be tested and proven by this test. News Flash: he failed it completely.

 

[Bury Red]

I have had someone do my "chart" and it was either full of generalities (you like beer and football - no shit sherlock - since I was wearing a United shirt that was rather tight around the middle) or utterly wrong (you will marry 3 times - not looking good, you are scared of water - I was a SCUBA instructor at the time etc etc etc).

I was going to suggest putting that water near your beer and seeing how scared you were, but then I remembered you live in Oz, so even watered down lager won't phase you.

You've actually convinced me that there's something in this astrology lark with your chart though Wibbs. I'd previously dismissed it as bunkum but seeing as your chart has me down as a clown, maybe there is something in it.

 

[Wibble]

And here is something else from James Randi's web site which is a great explanation of how people convince themselves that crackpot ideas (no more crackpot that the milky statue) are correct despite all of the evidnce to the contrary.

BTW Randi is an excellent scientist who hates data fudging of any sort scientific or pseudo-scientific alike.

--------------------------------------------------

I've decided that I will share here with readers the entire progress of one applicant's exchange of correspondence with the JREF in regards to a claim, the genesis and discussion of the matter, and the dénouement. This e-mail message snuck by Andrew Harter and arrived in my mailbox just today (February 22/02). I will publish here the first approach by "Ms. C" and my first response to her. (The lady called me on the phone shortly after I sent the e-mail, and told me that my response to her was "sharp," and that she had no belief in the paranormal. I suggested that we should negotiate all this on e-mail, bearing in mind the fact that I wanted to present this to you readers, and she agreed.)
Following her initial frenzied comments here, you will see her claim, which is not at all too different from, nor nuttier than, others that we receive. Yes, it's perhaps difficult to believe such a claim is serious, but far more bizarre and unlikely claims have been made, even in the profession of parapsychology.

I have changed very slightly the punctuation, spelling, and division of the original, for clarity. The applicant's name is also disguised. This will be a real-time event, relayed to you weekly as it transpires. The lady wrote:

Dear Sir: I do not believe that you plan to pay off on your Paranormal Challenge because you will not define what YOU WILL ACCEPT AS PROOF. Nonetheless, I can demonstrate the fact that consciousness and personality not only survive death, but that they can communicate with us in a way that anyone can hear and understand: I receive and record Electronic Voice Phenomena from a common household appliance.
It is a Krups model #467 coffee maker. I record the Spirits speaking through the coffee maker in their own voices with a Radio Shack Digital Voice Recorder and have hundreds of clear, often lengthy, meaningful statements from them. They will answer questions and they can also read. They will read and respond to notes placed in the vicinity of the coffee maker when it is running. Their voices can be heard emanating from the coffee maker in real time, (as they are speaking) though it is difficult to understand most of their words "in real time." They used to call "HELP!" very loudly at first and that was quite easy to understand. Those calls for help and hearing my name was how I first discovered (to my horror, initially) that this was happening.

In order to test this you may use your own equipment, (Coffee maker and recorder, though I prefer that it be a similar Krups #467) and the experiment can be done in any location. It does not have to be in my home. I live in Maryland and only ask that it not be a great distance to travel. I analyze the recordings with a computer software program that the recorder downloads to, but one of your people can do the analyzing. (There are usually many statements per each minute of recording that can overlap one another.)

The positive result could be that you will receive a response that is meaningful to you as a result of your written or spoken query. A negative result would be that you didn't, but I believe that you have your own standard of what constitutes proof and that is the challenge that I would like to meet.

I have already successfully recorded Spirit voices from this coffee maker in a location other than my home and I also have recordings of Spirit voices from another Krups #467 made by a gentleman in another state. My guess is that after all of your years of investigating, you have already found out that Electronic Voice Phenomena is valid.

KINDLY RESPOND WITH THE CRITERIA THAT NEEDS TO BE MET IN ORDER TO ACTUALLY WIN YOUR CHALLENGE.

Sincerely, Ms. C.

I immediately responded — within 30 minutes:

I have received your rather hysterical, presumptuous, and misinformed inquiry. I hasten to reply.

First, the phenomenon you describe is well-known. It results from a random "tuned circuit" within an electrical device (coffee maker, electric typewriter, tape recorder, even an electric iron) that picks up modulated signals from either a strong nearby AM radio station, an amateur radio "ham," or any sort of communications device — including a cellular phone. Improper shielding of such devices can give rise to these audio images. These images are usually referred to by the uninformed as "spirit voices," and the history of this sort of thing goes far back to the early days of radio. Needless to say, those who prefer the "spiritual" explanation cannot ever be convinced that they are wrong.
In any case, your claim is certainly eligible for application to the million-dollar challenge, of course.

You wrote: "My guess is that after all of your years of investigating, you have already found out that Electronic Voice Phenomena is valid." Well, your guess is quite wrong. We have been approached by several people who make this claim, and in every case we have resolved the phenomenon as a quite ordinary one. In most cases, we are able to determine the source of the audio image, and to prove conclusively that it is quite explainable. In one case we showed that on the half-hour there was a "station ID" given, and it seemed to us that the "spirits" would not be providing such a service.

You demand: "KINDLY RESPOND WITH THE CRITERIA THAT NEEDS TO BE MET IN ORDER TO ACTUALLY WIN YOUR CHALLENGE." It's obvious that we cannot outline the "criteria" required — in our rules and requirements — since every claim is different, and requires different standards: guessing whether a coin will fall heads or tails, is quite different from predicting how a certain stock will do on the NYSE.
Your claim is quite interesting, though. You say that you receive "hundreds of clear, often lengthy, meaningful statements from them." Yes, I'm sure that you do. That's the nature of broadcasts and telephone communications, which you are picking up. So, that is not a factor here. But, you also say, "They will answer questions and they can also read. They will read and respond to notes placed in the vicinity of the coffee maker when it is running." Excellent! This is something that we can certainly test. It is something that cannot be mistaken for random voice noise.

You also state, "Their voices can be heard emanating from the coffee maker in real time, (as they are speaking) though it is difficult to understand most of their words 'in real time'." Yes, I'm sure. And therein (the underlined part) lies a great difficulty. In my experience, victims of this (and similar) delusions amass a great lot of material, and then pick through it patiently for long periods of time until something resembling the answer they are looking for, shows up. I knew of a man in Germany (his wife's hair-dryer spoke to him) who asked simply, "What is 2 plus 2?" and then went through 20 minutes of tape until he heard something that sounded like "fear," (that's "vier," or "four" in German) and claimed that the question had been answered. I'd like to know from you, how long it takes for the questions to be answered....?

"The positive result could be that you will receive a response that is meaningful to you as a result of your written or spoken query." Yes, that would work. My question would be something direct, such as, "What was the name of my paternal great-grandfather?" However, that question, in writing, would be placed in such a position that no one but the spirits would be able to read it.

Does this sound feasible to you? We are in the very first stages here of developing a possible protocol. I know that you will ignore the possibilities that I have outlined here as mundane explanations, since you're absolutely dedicated to a paranormal modality, and after you have failed the test, you will persist in believing — because you need this to be true. However, I'm required to give you this information, on the remote chance that you might recognize the true nature of the phenomenon.

Ms. C, you should think about your story. The "voices" part is, I'm sure, quite true. The answering of questions, I believe, is the part that you have provided to validate the paranormal aspects of your claim. Yes, I know, you will deny this — even to yourself — but again, I'm required to give you this information.

I await your response.

Stay tuned for further developments....

 

[Wibble]

I'd previously dismissed it as bunkum but seeing as your chart has me down as a clown, maybe there is something in it.

But you don't need to be an Astrologer to ...........


Nah. Lets not go there

 

[Danny_]

Whether God cares about my existence is IMHO a more interesting question than whether he exists or not. Why would he care? I'm one instance of billions of my species living right now and possibly hundreds of billions of them that have ever lived. Why am I worthy of God's love? There's nothing particularly special about me. I'll live a relatively short live (till 80 or so if I'm lucky) and then what?

Why would I become anything else? If a heaven exists, it must be a pretty big place constantly making room for more souls. Also, what about animals? Where do they go when they die? Why are we more special than them just because we dominate this planet?

The buddhists suggest re-incarnation. This seemingly takes care of the real-estate shortage in heaven problem. It also gives an answer to why there are more and more humans with souls. The animals/insects have worked their way up to a higher level and are now human. But it still says nothing about why God would have our best interests at heart. It doesn't really solve the problem of evil either except in a "Oh, nothing really matters" bullshit way.

What of Christianity? Segregation. The sinners are forever burned at the stake while the good virtuous innocent virgins or people that have only had sex ever with their husband/wives get to presumably feck all day long with hot chicks. How extreme. So unfair. Muslims get the same deal also.

What about Torah or the Old Testament as christians call it. Now we have a vengeful God who deals out justice in an even more draconian way, smiting those who are disobedient. Plagues, war, famine pestilence. A curse upon those who do not worship me and do my bidding. An even more insecure God than that of the New Testament who will feck you real good if you step out of line.

So what's the common theme here? Well there might be a few but the one I see is the hope for something better. That's all it is. A choice to hope for a reward. Some people in the past thought that sacrificing animals and sometimes even people to the great unknown would get them this reward. Modern day religions prefer mostly to suggest that faith gets you there. That God is testing you and if you pass the test, you get the candy. And if you fail the test, you end up a hobo on the streets for the rest of your miserable existence.

The trouble is that none of these religions seem to suggest to me a God that gives a flying feck about anyone other than himself. Worship me or else. That's hardly a good starting point for a relationship by human standards. And then of course, there are the countless examples of people in chronic pain, people being tortured etc. Just believe and you'll find your own evidence the believers tell us. This is like suggesting I take heroine. If I just wanted to be happy and didn't care about the truth, if I had enough cash, I could whittle away the rest of my life on heroine instead and never worry. But that option seems horrifying to most of us (except probably any junkies on here...yeah, you know what I'm talking about Nial). Like a drug that turns us into vegetables and cuts off our contact with reality. And that's essentially what atheists believe they would sacrifice if they went ahead and just believed. /rant

 

[The King]

And here is something else from James Randi's web site which is a great explanation of how people convince themselves that crackpot ideas (no more crackpot that the milky statue) are correct despite all of the evidnce to the contrary.

BTW Randi is an excellent scientist who hates data fudging of any sort scientific or pseudo-scientific alike.

Is that the best you can come up with Wibbs...James Randi, James Randi, James Randi...etc etc...all hung up abt 1 guy and his website!!! I thought you had some serious data collected sampling 1000's of people which ultimately proves that astrology is inaccurate 99.9% of the time, as you claimed in your earlier posts.

Even i have more than 1 fecking example to show that astrology is correct. Maybe we are talking of diff methods of astrology. I was mentioning the Indian method of astrology where the birth date and time alone is used to plot planetary movements. I do not have much faith in Palmistry, cards etc.

Common Wibbs, if you believe in this so much, then common prove me wrong publicly..thats an open offer..common! If you feel wht i am saying and millions of believers are wrong, common put us to your scientific sword will ya, accept my challenge then. Ping me your details dude and we shall see if i come up with incidents related fecking closely to your life n not stuff like you like football and beer!

You have nothing to lose, except proving me wrong. And if you dont accept the challenge, then i think you should just shut the gap abt science and bollocks cos you aint got what it takes to talk!

 

[The King]

And by the way Wibbs...i did a search on the your "famed" James Randi site on the idol drinking milk. And that single article was enough for me to conclude that that guy is nothing but full of shit.

The article says, devotees were pouring milk on the trunk and it flowed to a container below and even a blind eye could see nothing was being "drunk"...fecking hell, i was there and i did not pour anything over anything, nor did the hundreds after me dude. We just placed a spoon under the trunk, full of milk and it disappeared. And this was the experience of several millions all over the world. As i said, not only hindus, but scientists as well were there to verify it and there is nothing abt "pouring".

This single story is enough to show that the site is crap. He prob made the article himself. What a joke dude, and i am quite perplexed that you actually believe such things. You are worse of than the "nutters" that you think that exist in this world, you are no different dude!

 

[Bury Red]

I saw television coverage of the milk drinking statues of Ganesh and the scientific explanations were fairly simple and plausible I'm afraid king. The marble in the statues has a very fine surface porosity which in certain climactic conditions (low humidity, high heat) could cause a surface suction which would draw up a liquid (giving the illusion of drinking) and dissipate it as a thin film over the surface of the statue which could either run away almost invisibly or evaporate.

James Randi is a professional cynic but his scientific method is accurate and verifiable while his challenge to pay £1 Million to the first person who can bring him a mystical phenomenon which cannot be rationalised by science has remained unbeaten. There was a programme on here about him recently connected with one such challenge where a French scientist who believed he had found conclusive proof of the workings of homeopathy, sufficient to draw in most serious medical journals, yet failed under Randi's supervision. He may be a sarcastic sod and his stage magician background enables people to dismiss him more readily but the simple fact is that none have met his straight forward challenge yet.

 

[nickm]

And by the way Wibbs...i did a search on the your "famed" James Randi site on the idol drinking milk. And that single article was enough for me to conclude that that guy is nothing but full of shit.

The article says, devotees were pouring milk on the trunk and it flowed to a container below and even a blind eye could see nothing was being "drunk"...fecking hell, i was there and i did not pour anything over anything, nor did the hundreds after me dude. We just placed a spoon under the trunk, full of milk and it disappeared. And this was the experience of several millions all over the world. As i said, not only hindus, but scientists as well were there to verify it and there is nothing abt "pouring".

This single story is enough to show that the site is crap. He prob made the article himself. What a joke dude, and i am quite perplexed that you actually believe such things. You are worse of than the "nutters" that you think that exist in this world, you are no different dude!

Oh dear, wrong again.

James Randi is a magician and scientific sceptic world-famous for his investigation of paranormal claims. He works with top scientists in this effort, since many paranormal claims are actually fakes and conjuring tricks (who better to spot a magician than another magician?). Actually, he follows in a tradition going back to Houdini. His work is regarded highly by those who pay attention to these things.

 

[giggzy]

Randi is very good. I saw a programme in which he taught a few people how to make cold readings in a couple of hours. He knows all the tricks of the trade.

 

[Wibble]

Randi is also an excellent scientist. He has also debunked scientific findings. The Memory of Water for one which ruined the career of a french scientist and showed homeopathy for the sham it is.

The Kings reaction is exactly what you would expect from muddle minded fools who believe in such rubbish. Why would you want to believe in such rubbish? What can you possibly gain from such fantasy? Are people's lives so meaningless and empty that they need something more, no matter how laughable?

And it looks like you forgot to mention that the "milk" wasn't actually milk.

What next?

The King: Behold the great bleeding wall of Milton Keynes?
Painter: No it's paint mate!
The King: No it is a mystical sign. See how that wall oozes blood.
Painter: It hasn't dried yet
The King: No its a sign and I should know, I've seen a few.
Painter: Your a loony mate! (leaves in the general direction of the pub).

All you are doing is fooling yourself in tha way that idiot in the quote I posted convinced themselves that their coffee machine was channelling spirit voices.

 

[Wibble]

And by the way Wibbs...i did a search on the your "famed" James Randi site on the idol drinking milk. And that single article was enough for me to conclude that that guy is nothing but full of shit.

The article says, devotees were pouring milk on the trunk and it flowed to a container below and even a blind eye could see nothing was being "drunk"...fecking hell, i was there and i did not pour anything over anything, nor did the hundreds after me dude. We just placed a spoon under the trunk, full of milk and it disappeared. And this was the experience of several millions all over the world. As i said, not only hindus, but scientists as well were there to verify it and there is nothing abt "pouring".

This single story is enough to show that the site is crap. He prob made the article himself. What a joke dude, and i am quite perplexed that you actually believe such things. You are worse of than the "nutters" that you think that exist in this world, you are no different dude!

He doesn't condone your insanity so he must be a nutter. Bizarre logic but not unexpected.

I'm sure that the original happened the way Bury Red describes and the rest were frauds of various kinds like the one reported on the Randi site combined with many deluded fools who saw what they wanted to believe.

 

[The King]

I saw television coverage of the milk drinking statues of Ganesh and the scientific explanations were fairly simple and plausible I'm afraid king. The marble in the statues has a very fine surface porosity which in certain climactic conditions (low humidity, high heat) could cause a surface suction which would draw up a liquid (giving the illusion of drinking) and dissipate it as a thin film over the surface of the statue which could either run away almost invisibly or evaporate.

James Randi is a professional cynic but his scientific method is accurate and verifiable while his challenge to pay £1 Million to the first person who can bring him a mystical phenomenon which cannot be rationalised by science has remained unbeaten. There was a programme on here about him recently connected with one such challenge where a French scientist who believed he had found conclusive proof of the workings of homeopathy, sufficient to draw in most serious medical journals, yet failed under Randi's supervision. He may be a sarcastic sod and his stage magician background enables people to dismiss him more readily but the simple fact is that none have met his straight forward challenge yet.

That was what the scientists also predicted. However, they did not comment on statues made of granite, wood and metal and clay. I personally tried it on a wooden, metal and granite statue. Surely the same theology cannot apply to all the above materials. This, the scientists have no answer to till date. And secondly, if the explanation given is true, then it should happen even today on any statue on close climatic conditions. Surely, the climate could not have changed so drastically that it cannot happen again. So why did it happen only then and on different materials as well.

I know little of James Randi, but the article on his site which talks of this phenomenon, is severely lacking accuracy. You had witnessed the incident on TV, were they pouring the milk? Or was it placed under the trunk to be sipped? In the article, a wrong description is given. And Randi, himself has not made any tests to verify what happened. So how could he make a sweeping statement, being the scientist he is? So the entire thing looks bollocks to me cos they had misrepresented it from the start.

Taking away the sceptisim or the theory of God etc, even you lot would have to agree that to pass a judgement scientifically, one has to investigate, verify, collect data, analyse and then make a call. And all of these were missing in Mr Randi's assesement. So what's this then? Bollocks i would say, did he behave like a scientist?

 

[The King]

Randi is also an excellent scientist. He has also debunked scientific findings. The Memory of Water for one which ruined the career of a french scientist and showed homeopathy for the sham it is.

The Kings reaction is exactly what you would expect from muddle minded fools who believe in such rubbish. Why would you want to believe in such rubbish? What can you possibly gain from such fantasy? Are people's lives so meaningless and empty that they need something more, no matter how laughable?

And it looks like you forgot to mention that the "milk" wasn't actually milk.

What next?

The King: Behold the great bleeding wall of Milton Keynes?
Painter: No it's paint mate!
The King: No it is a mystical sign. See how that wall oozes blood.
Painter: It hasn't dried yet
The King: No its a sign and I should know, I've seen a few.
Painter: Your a loony mate! (leaves in the general direction of the pub).

All you are doing is fooling yourself in tha way that idiot in the quote I posted convinced themselves that their coffee machine was channelling spirit voices.

You are pretty much a tosser Wibbs, you keep going all day long abt rubbish when the opportunity is there for you to prove me wrong. You just dont have the guts do you, for all the scientific bollocks you speak. This is the 3rd time that i have asked you to accept my challenge, and on all occasions, you have chosen to back off and hide your ignorance.

Why? Are you afraid or something? If you believe in Mr Randi so much then why dont you take up the "muddled minds" challenge? Common dude, stop wading around like a silly duck in your small pond of ignorance, your cowardice is becoming hard to hide!

 

[The King]

Oh dear, wrong again.

James Randi is a magician and scientific sceptic world-famous for his investigation of paranormal claims. He works with top scientists in this effort, since many paranormal claims are actually fakes and conjuring tricks (who better to spot a magician than another magician?). Actually, he follows in a tradition going back to Houdini. His work is regarded highly by those who pay attention to these things.

Sometimes, its really hard to work with narrow minded people. You keep going on abt ONE man's veto against maybe millions of people. Its not scientific at all esp the one on the statue. I have already explained that in my responce to Burys thread. The article, is false and misrepresented.

The article is bollocks and yet you choose to believe when you hv no idea or ever witnessed the phenomenon. Is this not being narrow minded or is it being foolish and ignorant. I respect ones believes and theorys, but discounting them without even having first hand experience or any credible data is preposterous, let alone misrepresentig the entire thing.

Common dude, open your mind, dont choose to see what you want to see, if you want the truth, find it out for yourself. Thats the best verification isnt it? Thats the challenge that you guys have yet to accept. How do you fight ignorant fools cowardice? If you are sooo scientific, then prove me wrong once and for all...that is something you PERSONALLY have declined till now! So who is more scientific here?

 

[Wibble]

That was what the scientists also predicted. However, they did not comment on statues made of granite, wood and metal and clay. I personally tried it on a wooden, metal and granite statue. Surely the same theology cannot apply to all the above materials. This, the scientists have no answer to till date. And secondly, if the explanation given is true, then it should happen even today on any statue on close climatic conditions. Surely, the climate could not have changed so drastically that it cannot happen again. So why did it happen only then and on different materials as well.

I know little of James Randi, but the article on his site which talks of this phenomenon, is severely lacking accuracy. You had witnessed the incident on TV, were they pouring the milk? Or was it placed under the trunk to be sipped? In the article, a wrong description is given. And Randi, himself has not made any tests to verify what happened. So how could he make a sweeping statement, being the scientist he is? So the entire thing looks bollocks to me cos they had misrepresented it from the start.

Taking away the sceptisim or the theory of God etc, even you lot would have to agree that to pass a judgement scientifically, one has to investigate, verify, collect data, analyse and then make a call. And all of these were missing in Mr Randi's assesement. So what's this then? Bollocks i would say, did he behave like a scientist?

You are being taken for a fool I'm afraid. It just didn't happen in the way you want to believe. Your religious fanaticism is blinding you.

And as for the article on the Randi site, it wasn't a scientific study merely a report of one observed way that this myth has spread. Bury Red gave you another. You have been duped. Lets face it if it was true someone would be $1,000,000.00 better off courtesy of Mr Randi who has it sitting in a trust account.

And what do you have to say about the scientifically tested complete failure of Astrology that I posted? A test set by the Astrologer himself failed horribly. He didn't even have to accurately predict that someone would meet a tall dark streanger or how many kids they would have. Merely sort out twelve people with different start signs out carrectly. Face it it is bollocks and obviously bollocks at that.

You again miss the point. I don't deny anthing. I merely chose to base my understand of things on scientific enquiry. Since belief in things like God and Astrology have no rational basis or evidence to confirm their existence I will not believe they exist until there is evidence. Do you see the difference between that and not believing under any circumstances? I hope so because you assume that I have a closed mind whereas I have an incredibly open one. I just can't see the intellectual honest of believing anything I like, no matter how nutty, without proof.

 

[Danny_]

When United won the title again last season, I knew that there was no God.

 

[Wibble]

You are pretty much a tosser Wibbs, you keep going all day long abt rubbish when the opportunity is there for you to prove me wrong. You just dont have the guts do you, for all the scientific bollocks you speak. This is the 3rd time that i have asked you to accept my challenge, and on all occasions, you have chosen to back off and hide your ignorance.

Why? Are you afraid or something? If you believe in Mr Randi so much then why dont you take up the "muddled minds" challenge? Common dude, stop wading around like a silly duck in your small pond of ignorance, your cowardice is becoming hard to hide!

There is no challenge because you have nothing other than a belief in mystic rubbish. There is no evidence that will stand up to independent scientific study of either God or Milk slurping statues anymore than there is evidence of spirit voices in Coffee machines. It is all self deluding rubbish. So how about this for a challenge since you like them so much. Take one of these statues to Randi and claim your million bucks. Can't? Didn't think so.

The bottom line is that you want to believe what you want to believe. I want to believe what is true. I freely admit that some things that appear true based on current evidence may be untrue based on future discoveries. I just don't see any other rational way of having a belief system.

 

[The King]

There is no challenge because you have nothing other than a belief in mystic rubbish. There is no evidence that will stand up to independent scientific study of either God or Milky breated statues anymore than there is evidence of spirit voices in Coffee machines. It is all self deluding rubbish. So how about this for a challenge since you like them so much. Take one of these statues to Randi and claim your million bucks. Can't? Didn't think so.

The bottom line is that you want to believe what you want to believe. I want to believe what is true. I freely admit that some things that appear true based on current evidence may be untrue based on future discoveries. I just don't see any other rational way of having a belief system.

You contradict yourself Wibbs. The "scientific explanation" says the marble absorbs the milk. So it should be able to do so even now. But it wont. So how can science explain that? You just agreed with me, without realising it.

And you have nothing but a shallow understanding of things ard you. A single man and a webpage is enough? Against millions of others who have experienced miracles? You must be deluded to make such a comparison.

Why doesnt Randi then visit the best mystics in the world and prove them wrong, like the Lama, Sai Baba, Sufi's etc? That would make him millions, why does he not do it?

As for the challenge, you still dont have the guts to do it bet you and me, now you want me to go to Randi. Why the fear dude? Afterall, you seem to be so scientific abt it. The more you run away the more satisfied i get, that you just dont have what it takes, to even comment on this issue, cos you have no opinion/experience/data of your own and everything you really have is borrowed.

Think abt it..all the "knowledge" you have is from someone else...isnt that true? There is really hardly anything that you have ever "learnt" on your own.

 

[Wibble]

You contradict yourself Wibbs. The "scientific explanation" says the marble absorbs the milk. So it should be able to do so even now. But it wont. So how can science explain that? You just agreed with me, without realising it.

Since it only happened under conditions of low humidity and high heat the conditions changing would stop the phenomonen. As this happened the religious hysteria would also gradually grind to a halt

And you have nothing but a shallow understanding of things ard you. A single man and a webpage is enough? Against millions of others who have experienced miracles? You must be deluded to make such a comparison.

One man? What are you on about. Randi is merely the most public debunker around.

Why doesnt Randi then visit the best mystics in the world and prove them wrong, like the Lama, Sai Baba, Sufi's etc? That would make him millions, why does he not do it?

He often does stuff like that. Most refuse to be tested and those who are fail 100% of the time. He can't be everywhere so surely offereing a million bucks for anyone who can demonstrate anything supernatural is a pretty good compromise. Or maybe it isn't enough for you to bother with? Pocket change.

You would be on a plane with Ganesh under your arm if you had a hope of proving that real explanation was what you say it is. Opps. I forgot. It doesn't work now that the weather has changed.

As for the challenge, you still dont have the guts to do it bet you and me, now you want me to go to Randi. Why the fear dude? Afterall, you seem to be so scientific abt it. The more you run away the more satisfied i get, that you just dont have what it takes, to even comment on this issue, cos you have no opinion/experience/data of your own and everything you really have is borrowed.

What challenge? Are you mad?

Failure to prove the absence of something, that there is no evidence of in the first place, doesn't constitute proof of existence. It never has and it never will.

There is no evidence that the big bang was caused by an interstellar giraffe breaking wind. However, since I can't prove what went before the big bang (if anything) I can't prove that this isn't true. Therefore it must be true. QED.

Surely you must see the flaw in that line of reasoning (used in the loosest possible sense of the word).

Think abt it..all the "knowledge" you have is from someone else...isnt that true? There is really hardly anything that you have ever "learnt" on your own.

Think about what? That mans accumulated knowledge equates to "learning" through mystic osmosis. Or spirit infested coffee makers? Or thirsty statues?

I'd also like to bet that you would have also been alot more sceptical if it was a picture of Jesus weeping blood rather than something that confirms your religious beliefs.

This is a thread about what is more rational. You can believe whatever you want but don't try to say that it is rational simply because you believe it.

 

[edthered]

hehehehe.

Wibble 59 The King 0.

The King shown the yellow card for not being in touch with reality.

 

[The King]

Think about what? That mans accumulated knowledge equates to "learning" through mystic osmosis. Or spirit infested coffee makers? Or thirsty statues?

I'd also like to bet that you would have also been alot more sceptical if it was a picture of Jesus weeping blood rather than something that confirms your religious beliefs.

This is a thread about what is more rational. You can believe whatever you want but don't try to say that it is rational simply because you believe it.

Climate of low humidity and high heat? yeah right and i suppose all the countries which experienced this had the same temperature, humidity etc, being day and night on different sides of the globe. Feck, even you should realise that this explanation is dumb. The same thing was happening throughought the globe, some were day and some were night. And how could the humidity of Singapore be compared to the UK? What a load of rubbish adn you call this scientific. You cant hold a candle with this argument Wibbs!

On the site it also says, that one has to go through a test first before the actual million dollar challenge is offered. And its stated that NOONE made it through the initial test. What bet is there that they stage the whole fecking thing? Could there be a possibility that they do not allow a true mystic to display anything? Mathematics says, probability is there isnt it? Unless you love the balls of that Randi guy so much that you would assume that he is an honest dude. Common, the million dollar challenge was NEVER completed. Anything could have happened in the pre tests, the mystic could hv been proven wrong, Randi could hv been made to eat shit and so he paid off the guy to avoid embarrasement, they dont offer a fair ground to prove anything as the term is "under controlled environment". The list is endless.

You just lost your first bet to me dude, in the ET thread, i made a clear question to you lot on the "Crying Mary" & the Hindu God drinking milk. So it does not need to conform to your idea of conformity to my conformance. I believe in all religions and God as a universal figure. Its just that i hv not seen Mother Mary weeping so i cant quite argue as hard. Nonetheless, i would not doubt it as well as i believe there is a supreme being.

You are manipulating Wibbs, i am not saying that just becos you cant proof God is not there, it means he exists. My challenge is I know God exists and i can prove it, through a simple astrology test on you. As usual, you run away with such unskilled demeanour.

"This is a thread about what is more rational. You can believe whatever you want but don't try to say that it is rational simply because you believe it." Who defines rational? You? Me? Anyone? Whats rational to you? Are you the universal decider for whats rational and whats not? This statement itself would be a slap on your face dude, cos please dont argue simply becos you dont believe in God.

 

[The King]

By the way, where is the starter of this thread..? He wanted a debate and wanted parameters and disappeared after that...guess he realised that there may not be a God, maybe!

 

[Wibble]

Climate of low humidity and high heat? yeah right and i suppose all the countries which experienced this had the same temperature, humidity etc, being day and night on different sides of the globe. Feck, even you should realise that this explanation is dumb. The same thing was happening throughought the globe, some were day and some were night. And how could the humidity of Singapore be compared to the UK? What a load of rubbish adn you call this scientific. You cant hold a candle with this argument Wibbs!

Read my response. Heat/humidity was seemingly responsible for the original phenomonen. All the others were fraud and/or religious hysteria. Same happens in the Christian world when some crackpot suggests that pictures of jesus have stigmata.

On the site it also says, that one has to go through a test first before the actual million dollar challenge is offered. And its stated that NOONE made it through the initial test. What bet is there that they stage the whole fecking thing? Could there be a possibility that they do not allow a true mystic to display anything?

You either can't read or can't understand. There is no initial test that you have to pass. The experiment merely needs to be conducted under scientific conditions to prevent cheating. MAny have taken the challenege and failed horribly. Many others have agree a methodology and then failed spectacularly to turn up for their own test.

Mathematics says, probability is there isnt it?

Eh?

Unless you love the balls of that Randi guy so much that you would assume that he is an honest dude. Common, the million dollar challenge was NEVER completed. Anything could have happened in the pre tests, the mystic could hv been proven wrong, Randi could hv been made to eat shit and so he paid off the guy to avoid embarrasement, they dont offer a fair ground to prove anything as the term is "under controlled environment". The list is endless.

See my previous answer. You have no idea what you are talking about. There is no trickery involved because the tests are designed with the agrement of the participating person.

Who then go on to fail their own test.

You just lost your first bet to me dude, in the ET thread, i made a clear question to you lot on the "Crying Mary" & the Hindu God drinking milk. So it does not need to conform to your idea of conformity to my conformance. I believe in all religions and God as a universal figure. Its just that i hv not seen Mother Mary weeping so i cant quite argue as hard. Nonetheless, i would not doubt it as well as i believe there is a supreme being.

I lost what?

You bizarre statement is exactly what I was saying to you. This thread was about what was more rational. You can believe what you want, you can contort logic however you want to reassure yourself that you are right but you cannot claim that you are rational. Religion is about blind faith which is, by definition, irrational.

You are manipulating Wibbs, i am not saying that just becos you cant proof God is not there, it means he exists.

Yes you are. You are saying you must be right because I can't prove the non-existance of something.

My challenge is I know God exists and i can prove it, through a simple astrology test on you. As usual, you run away with such unskilled demeanour.

You are saying that you a) know God exists, b) you can prove it and c) you can prove it with Astrology.

I hope you are joking or have decent private medical insurance.

Who defines rational? You? Me? Anyone? Whats rational to you? Are you the universal decider for whats rational and whats not? This statement itself would be a slap on your face dude, cos please dont argue simply becos you dont believe in God.

I think a dictionary definition of rational is a good place to start.

ra·tion·al - adj.

1) Having or exercising the ability to reason.
2) Of sound mind; sane.
3) Consistent with or based on reason; logical: rational behavior. See Synonyms at logical.
4) Mathematics. Capable of being expressed as a quotient of integers.

I rest my case M'lud.

 

[spinoza]

I find it very hard to believe in any religion ever since I read Terry Pratchett's Small Gods.

Now that is a rational explanation for the existence of religion.

 

[Wibble]

Douglas Adams had a wonderful explanation for religion. He likened us to a puddle who is convinced that there is a God because the hole in the ground that they occupied fitted so perfectly. A sure sign of a larger meaning and intelligent design to Life the Universe and Everything.

 

[ManUinOz]

I don't know or care if there is a God but if he did show himself it would kind of defeat the idea of having faith in something "mystical" wouldn't it. Religion is about getting the masses to "believe" in the unprovable t keep them in check. If God did show himself what would he have to do to prove that he was/is in fact THE God, not just some person claiming to be God.

To The King I am very sceptical about astrology, not as passionately as Wibble. What is your challenge that you would like to prove it from birth dates etc cos I'm up for a challenge if you want to try and convince me it has any basis for belief.

 

[nickm]

Sometimes, its really hard to work with narrow minded people.

It is not about being narrow-minded, it is about having a way of filtering the facts from the bullshit. Carl Sagan wrote a very good book about this, called 'The Demon Haunted World'. I recommend it, so you can understand the difference between narrow-mindeness and skeptical thinking, and why it matters.

You keep going on abt ONE man's veto against maybe millions of people.

The number of believers doesn't make something more true, it only makes mass hysteria more likely.

 

[The King]

I think a dictionary definition of rational is a good place to start.

ra·tion·al - adj.

1) Having or exercising the ability to reason.
2) Of sound mind; sane.
3) Consistent with or based on reason; logical: rational behavior. See Synonyms at logical.
4) Mathematics. Capable of being expressed as a quotient of integers.

I rest my case M'lud.

You really have no end to your ignorance Wibbs, if Heat and humidity was the reason for the original phenomenon, tell me where the original phenomenon happened? In which country and and what time precisely? I am sure you have such "data" available in your scientific annals. Let me tell you once, more, i was personally there and i tried it on a metal, wodden and granite statue. It worked all the time. So was Singapore the place of the original phenomenon? Its one thing to dismiss something through scirntific explanations, yet its really something else, to disprove somthing uttering utter bollocks. Till now, you have absolutely no prove whetso ever to suggest this phenomenon was mass hysteria. Show me the proof with accurate data. Thats what science is isnt it? If you cant, then you are wrong isnt it, according to science!

No initial test eh? So much for you knowing abt the great scientist Randi! Read this dude, from your very own reference website http://www.randi.org/research/index.html ....
You hardly know anything abt this guy or the tests either and yet you subscribe to Randi's theology with such vehemency. You know bollocks of the tests or what goes on with the million dollar challenge. You are a joke dude. You talk so much abt science, Randi, Godlessness and yet you cant get your facts right. Why do you want to talk abt something you dont know when you dont even know things which you think you know. There are prelim tests, just read the link and dont manipulate like you always do. Its fecking clear that you have no real idea of the challenge. Just for you i have copied and pasted the exact words from the link "In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim" "Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives" "To date, no one has ever passed the preliminary tests" You are a joke dude, now now..dont manipulate, i got you here!

Astrology? I am not saying that God exists and i can prove it with astrology. Looks like you dont quite read nor comphrehend very well! Let me try again. I believe in God. I believe he designed this world. The contrasting theory is that of science, where the world came into existence due to some "scientific process" aka the Big Bang. So this theory makes our surrounding planets, mere balls of gas, rock etc. Nothing special abt them right. But in Astrology the science is, the planets influence the everday happenings in our lives and have a large influence of good and bad that happens through our lives. They sort of "rule" over us in a way. So my logic is, if Astrology is right, then the theory of the planets having influence on us would also be right and that would quell the fact that the planets are mere balls of gasses and nothing else which leads to a strong suspicion that there may just be a creator. Get it?

Its becoming preposterous to debate with you. You have nothing scientifc in you dude. I have stated clearly of my experience, any "scientist" would have gathered more data on it before dismissing it. But you discounted it immediately. You had no clue abt it either until Bury gave an insight to it. Secondly, you dont even know abt things which you talk abt so vehemently, like the million dollar challenge, you certainly lack depth dude. This is indeed abt baing rational, not abt being dense and arrogant. And you know what such people are "clever" for, they always think they they know everything, which in most cases is far from the truth!

 

[The King]

I don't know or care if there is a God but if he did show himself it would kind of defeat the idea of having faith in something "mystical" wouldn't it. Religion is about getting the masses to "believe" in the unprovable t keep them in check. If God did show himself what would he have to do to prove that he was/is in fact THE God, not just some person claiming to be God.

To The King I am very sceptical about astrology, not as passionately as Wibble. What is your challenge that you would like to prove it from birth dates etc cos I'm up for a challenge if you want to try and convince me it has any basis for belief.

To me religion and God is different. Religion was formed to segregate men, for the selfishness of man himself. Religion contains the codes to behave, cultural aspects, dogmas, creeds etc. God is beyond religion cos he does not need religion. If you subscribe to the theory of God, then its simple, he is our father, be it christians, Muslims, Hindu or Buddhist. Its immaterial to him. Many of us do not realise this.

Astrology? I have extreme believe in astrology. Ofcourse not everyone can do it, it takes years of study and experience and based on planetary movements. My challenge was to prove that astrology is accurate, in contrast to what Wibble said(99.99% of the time, its inaccurate). And he has yet to furnish me with any data on that. Wibbs is notorious on claiming things and having no facts to back it up! Thats just him, i suppose.

Oz dude, being sceptical is natural. Wanting to try something without calling it bollocks is intelligent. Ping me your name, birth data and exact birth time and country of birth. I will get you a brief reading into you past, present and maybe future. Your details will ofcourse be confidential. I am only doing this becos i feel tha world ard us did not just come abt through an explosion which till now, no one can explain on what caused it. Ofcourse you have to be honest in the details given as it would be calculated on the data you give me.

You dont have to believe anything at the end of the day, maybe this excercise would make you ponder even deeper on the "If there really is a God..." question...

 

[Wibble]

You really have no end to your ignorance Wibbs,

Have you heard of irony?

if Heat and humidity was the reason for the original phenomenon, tell me where the original phenomenon happened?

Where is irrelevant. How is important. It has been demonstrated that low humidity and high temperatures can cause a stone statue to draw a liquid up by capillary action. Since there is no proof of anything supernatural then the “drinking” you talk about which allegedly occurred with statues made of different materials is most likely caused by religious hysteria and deception (deliberate and self). It has occurred all over the world and in many religions. Give me evidence (and I mean real proof and/or evidence) that you are right and I will consider that matter further. In its continued absence I will maintain my logical and rational stance as a skeptic.

In which country and and what time precisely? I am sure you have such "data" available in your scientific annals.

Who cares?

Let me tell you once, more, i was personally there and i tried it on a metal, wodden and granite statue. It worked all the time.

Evidence? None. I think that you are either mad, bullshitting or (more likely) self deluded based on religious fervour. Prove me wrong by proving yourself right. Can’t? Funny that.


So was Singapore the place of the original phenomenon?

What is your point? If indeed you have one?

Its one thing to dismiss something through scirntific explanations, yet its really something else, to disprove somthing uttering utter bollocks.

You don’t disprove something. You prove something. Do you read anything anyone writes?

You are asserting something so you have to prove it. So far you have produced no evidence, much less proof. BTW wishing isn’t evidence.

Till now, you have absolutely no prove whetso ever to suggest this phenomenon was mass hysteria. Show me the proof with accurate data. Thats what science is isnt it? If you cant, then you are wrong isnt it, according to science!

Are you really so dense? Scienec cannot disprove something that God doesn’t exist. It is a logical impossibility. I can assert that given the total lack of evidence for the existence of a God the most logical thing to assumje is true is that there is no God. Give me evidence and I will adjust my view accordingly. But you have no evidenece so there is no need for me to djust my view is there? You on the other hand cling to unsupportable beliefs DESPITE the evidence.

No initial test eh? So much for you knowing abt the great scientist Randi! Read this dude, from your very own reference website http://www.randi.org/research/index.html ....
You hardly know anything abt this guy or the tests either and yet you subscribe to Randi's theology with such vehemency. You know bollocks of the tests or what goes on with the million dollar challenge. You are a joke dude. You talk so much abt science, Randi, Godlessness and yet you cant get your facts right.

This is not a pass and fail test designed to stop people winning the money you fool. It is a initial way of agreeing a scientifically sound methodology that includes blind testing and prevents fraud. Or would you rather it went like this:-

The King: I have a thirsty statue
Randi: What evidence do you have?
The King: I saw it
Randi: Fair enough, here is a million dollars. Enjoy!

Why do you want to talk abt something you dont know when you dont even know things which you think you know.

But I’m pretty sure that I know that you know that I know that you know that I know that you know you are talking out of a passge not designed for the purpose.

There are prelim tests, just read the link and dont manipulate like you always do. Its fecking clear that you have no real idea of the challenge. Just for you i have copied and pasted the exact words from the link "In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim" "Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives" "To date, no one has ever passed the preliminary tests" You are a joke dude, now now..dont manipulate, i got you here!

Go me

You have nothing. Why are you so angry about someone examining your beliefs? Or do you secretly fear the you are totally rong but don’t want to admit it? Or maybe your coffee machine tells you it is true.

Astrology? I am not saying that God exists and i can prove it with astrology. Looks like you dont quite read nor comphrehend very well! Let me try again.

That is what you said even if that isn’t what you meant. Maybe my ability to read and comprehend is better than your ability to write what you mean.

I believe in God. I believe he designed this world.

How do you know puddle boy?

The contrasting theory is that of science, where the world came into existence due to some "scientific process" aka the Big Bang. So this theory makes our surrounding planets, mere balls of gas, rock etc. Nothing special abt them right.

Wrong. Very special, just not in the way you wish.

But in Astrology the science is, the planets influence the everday happenings in our lives and have a large influence of good and bad that happens through our lives. They sort of "rule" over us in a way. So my logic is, if Astrology is right, then the theory of the planets having influence on us would also be right and that would quell the fact that the planets are mere balls of gasses and nothing else which leads to a strong suspicion that there may just be a creator. Get it?

a) Astrology is pseudoscience at best
b) Your “logic” is not
c) So you are saying that IF Astrology is right then it is right which means there is probably a God. The flaw is that it isn’t right, or at lest there is no evidence that it is right. Bizarre.

becoming preposterous to debate with you.

You do not debate. You state what you want to be true. There is a difference.

Any "scientist" would have gathered more data on it before dismissing it. But you discounted it immediately.

Based on hundreds of years of a complete failure to provide evidence. Surely after visiting the bottom of the garden every day for decades you must begin to suspect that there are no faries

You had no clue abt it either until Bury gave an insight to it. Secondly, you dont even know abt things which you talk abt so vehemently, like the million dollar challenge, you certainly lack depth dude.

Are you saying tht I don’t know everything? No shit Sherlock.

So prove your wild assertions.

This is indeed abt baing rational, not abt being dense and arrogant. And you know what such people are "clever" for, they always think they they know everything, which in most cases is far from the truth!

You obviously choose not to know what rational means.

And why are people who think you are wrong dense, arrogant and being “clever”. I thin the words logical and rational cover it much better.

 

[The King]

This is getting tiring indeed. Why should i even bother at times to prove something to you, is beyond me cos even if God came down infront of you, you would call it bollocks, you arent objective at all dude.

How do you want me to prove that the phenomenon happened? It was once and that was it, that was why it was a phenom. You have quoted me a single website discounting God and how a single man proves everyone wrong. Do a search on google on this and you will find thousands of hits. So whats the comparison here? Your argument is preposterous. Explain this to me with your scientific brains, if the drinking was caused by capilary within the stones, why is it not happening now? Second, why was it happening all over the world with the press covering it(even Sky covered it in UK)? Third, why is there no proper scientific paper discounting it and explaining why it was happening all over the world at the same time on diff materials. These happened in temples in Mancheter, Southall and Wimbeldon. Excerpts from just this one site :Many journalists actively participated in these miraculous events. Rebecca Mae, a Daily Express journalist, wrote: "I had a good view from the side and all I can say is that the statue appeared to suck in half a spoonful while it was held level by the worshipper. The rest was sipped reverently by the devotee. A photographer from a national tabloid newspaper was right in front of the statue. And he was convinced it was drinking the milk. He said he could see no mechanism to explain the phenomenon, after scrutinising it at length. As a lapsed Catholic I don't believe in stories of the Virgin Mary shedding tears. Indeed, I would say I was as sceptical as anyone -- but it's difficult to dismiss something you have seen for yourself."

Journalist Suzanne O'Shea also witnessed the miracle. "Following the example of others I knelt on the floor beside the statue of the bull and placed a dessert spoon filled with milk beside its mouth, steadying it with both hands. Within seconds the milk had virtually vanished, leaving just a drop in the spoon that was emptied into my hands so that I could bless myself. I tried a second time, and again the milk seemed to vanish from the spoon within seconds." http://www.newfrontier.com/asheville/hindu-milk-miracle.htm

If you are gonna say mass hysteria for the questions, then its not worth even talking to you on this, cos you hv nothing objective to give, just plain silly ignorance. Even the press people had tried it and they could not believe it. Check this, you poof. Its a video taken at one of the temples. If you can see, images made of diff materials are seeping the milk. Its not poured on them, they are held laterally and there is nothing spilt. http://www.milkmiracle.com/html/miracle.html#Video. So will you consider the matter further? I bet not, cos your silly belaugured mind would not allow it as usual.

"You dont disprove something, you prove something" quote from you. So please tell me on how you have proved that there is no God? Dont give me your silly manipulation again. This is your very own quote, so explain.

And feck off Wibbs, you were not aware there was an initial test in the first place and dont try to cover that up with your mumbo jumbo manipulation. Who claimed that its a pass or fail test. I said there were initial tests and you said NO "There is no initial test" Quote by Wibble. And dear rocket scientist, why would there be initail tests if they are not served to qualify? You were wrong and proved it!

If you really feel astrology is rubbish you would have volunteered to try it objectively, at the very least. Its a silly waste of time really, having this discusion with you. You have no real proof or data in the first place(99% wrong in astrology etc). Bollocks, you are just a nut with a huge ego dude. You have nothing to substantiate and yet you lay claim. Atleast i have given you websites, videos, personal insights and what do you have? Apart from a suspectable website? Nothing Nothing and Nothing.

 

[spinoza]

Douglas Adams had a wonderful explanation for religion. He likened us to a puddle who is convinced that there is a God because the hole in the ground that they occupied fitted so perfectly. A sure sign of a larger meaning and intelligent design to Life the Universe and Everything.

Small Gods has one that's just as good...

Everyone wants to think that the universe was created by some supreme being because of all the apparent miracles we see. But in doing so we gloss over all the shite we see in the world today, not to mention our overwhelming arrogance at thinking we are something special. It's far more likely that we were created by an underling when Mr Supreme Being wasn't looking, sort of like how we do our personal photocopying at the office while the boss is out for lunch.

 

[nickm]

Here is a newspaper report, from the News India-Times, from when this alleged milk-drinking occurred in 1995. According to the paper, it is not the straightforward matter the King implies.

---


Devotee Triggers Frenzy Among Faithful
By Our Editorial Team

Hindu faithful around the world converged on temples last week as
word spread that idols in India were drinking milk offered by
devotees. From Long Island to London and Australia to Zambia,
thousands of worshipers and the merely curious thronged Hindu
houses of worship hoping to witness what was described as the milk
miracle.

"It's a miracle," said Srikant Ravi, the priest at New Delhi's
Hanuman Temple. "The gods have come down to earth to solve all our
problems."

The excitement began when a devotee in the Indian capital dreamed
that Ganesha wanted milk. When the person, stated to be an
unidentified priest, held a spoonful of milk near the deity's idol,
the milk disappeared. That quickly spread through the country.
But by September 22, the fever abated, though devotees were still
reported to be offering milk to the gods in some places.
Scientists said the marvel was mass delusion, explained by
elementary physics. "It may be a politically motivated stunt,"
Sanal Edamarukku, head of the Indian Rationalist Society, said.
Despite such cautions, Hindu temples across the world were
thronged. Hundreds flocked London's temple in the Indian stronghold
of Southall. Swaminarayan Mandir, said to be the largest of its
kind outside Asia, also attracted many faithful.
Italy, home to the Vatican which is the seat of Catholicism, also
experienced the event.

A store in Rome that sells Indian wares said a small metallic idol
had begun sipping milk from a spoon. "We got a phone call from
India and they told us Ganesha was drinking milk. We tried over
here and he was drinking milk," said Sanjay Daswani, whose family
owns the store.

In New York, Ganesha temple in the Flushing section was kept open
till 4 a.m. September 22 to enable the last devotee to perform the
ritual. On nearby Long Island and in New Jersey, devotees said
deities were swallowing milk. One worshiper said he had kept a
saucer of milk in front of idols in his home. The milk, he said,
had disappeared.

Chandrakant Trivedi, a news photographer in New Jersey, said he had
taken a shower before offering milk to a 2 inch silver idol in his
home. Trivedi said he recited stotras (hymns) as the milk
disappeared. Scientists debunked the talk of a miracle. "An
organized conspiracy is behind such reports, to work up popular
religious sentiments," said Sudip Bhattacharya, head of the
Paschimbanga Vigyan Mancha, a rationalists' forum.
Swamy Satyamitranand Giri, former Shankaracharya of Bhanpura
Peetham, said the shastras did not mention any incident where milk
was consumed by the deities.

The swami, arrived in Ujjain (Madhya Pradesh) from Haridwar in
Uttar Pradesh, made the statement when his attention was drawn to
the reported miracle.
Giri said he himself had offered milk to an idol of Ganesha but the
milk did not disappear.

A number of physicists and social scientists appealed to the
government to investigate what they called fraud perpetrated on the
faithful.
Richard Muller, a physics professor at the University of California
at Berkeley, said: "This may be a natural phenomenon that no one
paid much attention to before because no one tried to feed the
statue milk. But I suspect they'll know soon."
In Bangalore, Chief Election Commissioner T.N. Seshan described
physicists as pseudoscientists. "It's not surface tension but it's
tension in your (scientists') mind," he remarked.

Whatever was the explanation to the "mystery," the price of milk
shot up in no time with some places reporting that it was being
sold for as high as Rs 100 a liter.

The Delhi state administration ordered an additional 100,000 liters
of milk. The debate between believers and scientists over the
plausibility of the miracle was quickly overtaken by charges and
countercharges by politicians jockeying for an edge ahead of a
general election likely to be held in March.

Vishwa Hindu Parishad, an ally of the main opposition Bharatiya
Janata Party, said the devotional excitement showed a Hindu age was
in the offing. "This is not an ordinary event but a divine one and
a prophesy," VHP leader Acharya Giriraj Kishore said.
The governing Congress party charged the Hindu organizations with
perpetrating a huge hoax to whip up religious fever to win votes.
Welfare Minister Sitaram Kesri said Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh had
spread the rumor with midnight phone calls that the deities were
sipping milk.

 

[Wibble]

So what you are saying is that The King is part of the Hindu Milk Mafia

 

[Wibble]

This is getting tiring indeed. Why should i even bother at times to prove something to you, is beyond me cos even if God came down infront of you, you would call it bollocks, you arent objective at all dude.

If a god appeared before me I would consider that to be possible evidence. Although I would have myself checked out for mental health problems first. I am very objective and thus require evidence/proof.

How do you want me to prove that the phenomenon happened?

Not my problem since I am not trying to prove it exists.

It was once and that was it, that was why it was a phenom. You have quoted me a single website discounting God and how a single man proves everyone wrong.

It happen in particular conditions i.e high temperature, low humidity and on stone statues. I make no claim how many times it happened in these circumstances.

And I did not show you the web site of the well respected sceptic and scientist James Randi as some sort of popularity contest, merely to point you to a very good source of information regarding the debunking of the many lunacies humans inflict upon themselves.

Do a search on google on this and you will find thousands of hits.

Just because there are lots of brainwashed people out there doesn’t make them any more correct or alter the fact that there is no evidence that you can provide. In fact if you based what you though was rational on howmany google hits you get for a particular subject then you could end up with a very bizarre world view.

So whats the comparison here?

I don’t know. For a comparison you need two things (or more) and you haven’t even specified one thing

Your argument is preposterous.

So it is preposterous to require proof or evidence of something now is it? Well silly old preposterous me! I think I’ll invent a religion to get back in touch with rational thought

Explain this to me with your scientific brains, if the drinking was caused by capilary within the stones, why is it not happening now?

Change in the weather? Or is that too preposterous for you. Perhaps Ganesh became lactose intolerant? Far more rational.

Second, why was it happening all over the world with the press covering it(even Sky covered it in UK)?

It was repoted all over the world, probably because religious hysteria travels fast.

Third, why is there no proper scientific paper discounting it

My 5 year old picks things up faster than you. Science would go about proving it if there was any real evidence. You can’t disprove something for which there is no evidence. No matter how ludicrous the original assertion

and explaining why it was happening all over the world at the same time on diff materials.

It didn’t.

These happened in temples in Mancheter, Southall and Wimbeldon.

No it didn’t.

Excerpts from just this one site :Many journalists actively participated in these miraculous events. Rebecca Mae, a Daily Express journalist, wrote: "I had a good view from the side and all I can say is that the statue appeared to suck in half a spoonful while it was held level by the worshipper. The rest was sipped reverently by the devotee. A photographer from a national tabloid newspaper was right in front of the statue. And he was convinced it was drinking the milk. He said he could see no mechanism to explain the phenomenon, after scrutinising it at length. As a lapsed Catholic I don't believe in stories of the Virgin Mary shedding tears. Indeed, I would say I was as sceptical as anyone -- but it's difficult to dismiss something you have seen for yourself."


Journalist Suzanne O'Shea also witnessed the miracle. "Following the example of others I knelt on the floor beside the statue of the bull and placed a dessert spoon filled with milk beside its mouth, steadying it with both hands. Within seconds the milk had virtually vanished, leaving just a drop in the spoon that was emptied into my hands so that I could bless myself. I tried a second time, and again the milk seemed to vanish from the spoon within seconds." http://www.newfrontier.com/asheville/hindu-milk-miracle.htm

Both very scientific examination I must say.

Most likely fraud but whatever the cause I’m pretty sure Ganesh wasn’t in need of a calcium boost.

 

[Wibble]

If you are gonna say mass hysteria for the questions, then its not worth even talking to you on this, cos you hv nothing objective to give, just plain silly ignorance.

Religious hysteria and fraud will have been responsile for 99% of all reported incidents. The original phenomonen has a rational and non supernatural explanation. After all religious hysteria is very well documented. I can’t prove it as such but then again I don’t need to. The burden of proof is on you since you are making the assertion.

Even the press people had tried it and they could not believe it.

Oh well that proves it then.

Have you ever read The Sun BTW? There is some great stuff in there for you to believe.

Check this, you poof.

Gratuitous abuse. A little rattled are we?

Its a video taken at one of the temples. If you can see, images made of diff materials are seeping the milk. Its not poured on them, they are held laterally and there is nothing spilt. http://www.milkmiracle.com/html/miracle.html#Video. So will you consider the matter further? I bet not, cos your silly belaugured mind would not allow it as usual.

I watched that video and it was so convincing that I have changed my mind. Sign me up for a pint or two of Ganesh brand milk.

Milkmiracle.com

And you are ridiculing Randi’s site.

Irony really isn’t your strong point is it.

"You dont disprove something, you prove something" quote from you. So please tell me on how you have proved that there is no God? Dont give me your silly manipulation again. This is your very own quote, so explain.

Kinell. I don’t need to disprove anything. If it existed then there would be evidence which you (the person claiming that there is a God, Atrology works etc) could use to prove or at least start to test your assertions.

And feck off Wibbs, you were not aware there was an initial test in the first place and dont try to cover that up with your mumbo jumbo manipulation. Who claimed that its a pass or fail test. I said there were initial tests and you said NO "There is no initial test" Quote by Wibble. And dear rocket scientist, why would there be initail tests if they are not served to qualify? You were wrong and proved it!

Rocket science? I think you need some sort of engineer.On second thoughts I think we shouldn’t get into what you need.

There is no initial test in the way that you think. If the claims being made cannot be substantiated using scientific metodology then the prize cannot be claimed. In other words if the claimant can’t or won’t undertake the challenge in a way that is scientifically sound and which prevents fraud then the challenge would be meaningless. This test that you are getting so excited about is not (as you plainly believe) a backdoor way of preventing honest astrologers (and other loonies) from winning the money. Merely ensuring that if there is a winner then it is based on demonstrable evidence. Why does this guy get you so hot under the collar? Because he challenges all of your strange beliefs or because you secretly know that he is right?

If you really feel astrology is rubbish you would have volunteered to try it objectively, at the very least.

I have. And I’m sure that I have told you this before. And the results were totally wrong.

Its a silly waste of time really, having this discusion with you.

Well stop then

You have no real proof or data in the first place(99% wrong in astrology etc).

You need to prove your insanity not the other way round. And I’m sure that Astrology is wrong in the predictive sense, but that it must hit an occasion correct “fact” by chance alone not to mention including stuff that is obvious from an Astrologer interacting with his/her victim.

Bollocks, you are just a nut with a huge ego dude.

I’m nuts for not believing in a milk drinking statue (and other assorted fictions)? Got me there

And I have a huge ego because I disagree with you? Odd chap.

You have nothing to substantiate and yet you lay claim. Atleast i have given you websites, videos, personal insights and what do you have? Apart from a suspectable website? Nothing Nothing and Nothing.

For the last time. You have made assertions about things you believe to exist. The onus is therefore on you to prove existence since you insist they are rational things to believe in. As I must have said a hundred times you can’t use failure to prove the non-existance of the non-existant as proof of existence. That way lies insanity.

I believe that there is a small fat man called Nigel who lives on the moon and he is in fact God. Since I can’t prove that this isn’t so, it must be true. I have now proven that God is in fact a small fat man called Nigel who lives on the moon. Taadddaaaahhhhhh!

Surely even you can see the logical flaw in such an argument

 

[Plechazunga]

I believe that there is a small fat man called Nigel who lives on the moon and he is in fact God.

There is...and he's made of Mozzarella - Giggzy told me

 

[nickm]

So what you are saying is that The King is part of the Hindu Milk Mafia

I have found if I put fluid into a cup, it eventually disappears. Surely this is final, clinching proof that I am a god?

 

[Wibble]

I have found if I put fluid into a cup, it eventually disappears. Surely this is final, clinching proof that I am a god?

I tried something similar myself tonight with beer. A whole six pack disappeared as if by magic. I really think I should start a beer based religion.