Great job by Murtough it has to be said.
Exciting time for the academy ?
- Thread starter TheReligion
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Or try not to poison his work with the first team managers influence?
I think any DOF would struggle in a set up where he has to cater to an over influential first team manager. I think it's too late for Murtough now, but the next DOF needs to have complete autonomy over the manager and be allowed to work above his head. The manager needs to report into and work to the DOFs requirements and not the other way around. Until we do that, this is always going to be a shitshow.
Let's not try to shift the blame to the manager here. Perhaps he as the director of football shouldn't be so meek and be overruled by a manager. Maybe have a proper vision himself? Or at least be aligned with the vision of the manager he hired? Murtogh is at fault for his own failings in his current role. He is far more suited for the role he had with the academy recruitment and development.
To be fair even the match going fans were probably the most vocal with their boos I've maybe seen Old Trafford, the place looked silent after their second. It didn't help that Villa really were outplaying us quite horrendously for that first half hour or so. But once we went 2-nil down that lit a fire around the place.
Probably after the West Ham game I felt myself getting that bit hysterical around these parts too.
But I did sort of mentally fall back on the one thing we do consistently well and that's produce good players. Mainoo and Garnacho really have been a bright spark in a shit 2023 for us.
That's precisely why he's in the job tbf.
No experienced DOF was ever going to touch this job. The entire briefing around the role was they were looking for a manager who would support and work with Solskjaer.
Any legitimate DOF would've came in and wanted his own first team coach and would've wanted autonomy over the managers role. Which at this club would've been sacrilege.
If we look back at the eth thread the views were overwhelming that he should be able to bring in players he has worked with that know his 'methods'.
Lovely to see a spine of young talent emerging in the first XI. Kambwala, Mainoo, Garnacho, Hojlund - arguably Rashford still. They could all be still playing and winning at United in 5-10 years time.
I hope this emboldens Erik and the new structure to cut adrift underperforming older players and those that aren’t good enough in the way our legendary manager used to do. This is a great base to build from.
I hope this emboldens Erik and the new structure to cut adrift underperforming older players and those that aren’t good enough in the way our legendary manager used to do. This is a great base to build from.
Well you have to build a philosophy and style first with what you have as a blue print for the future, he's not done that either. He and Solskjaer were meant to be defining that with the whole "youth, courage, success" motto. Turns out he had no idea how to turn that into a tangible plan.
A legitimate DOF would have asked what the philosophy and the objectives of the club. DOFs don't just come in and tear down the house to rebuild, there has to be an overarching plan that you can align to.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean exclusively people he's worked with. If Murtogh understood Ten Hags philosophies and methods, he should be able to suggest people that fit the brief, instead he just passed the responsibility to the manager and got players he's worked with. That's fine to a degree, but what's the point of a footballing structure if you just pass the buck to the manager.
Ultimately, what he seems to be good at is creating an environment where youth players can break into the first team and if not, have good careers. That next step of building a senior squad, he seems to struggle with and is a bit out of his depth.
Yeah, hope so. Said it on a few threads. Playing the kids, we will at least see them busting a gut and putting in hard work, and 4 or 5 in the team/first squad will hopefully become a bit infectious and some older players who have been coasting will be shamed into the same. Would love to see a proper cull that allows more opportunities for the youngsters.
It will be interesting to see what we do with both Gore and Kambwala. Do we keep them around as 4th or 5th choices in their respective positions, getting minimal starting opportunities but around the 1st team to develop slowly into the squad. Or do we loan them to a Preston to accelerate their growth but risk them being misused or underused.
Given we already have young Mainoo competing in midfield, I expect ETH to want to loan Gore out as he won’t want two out of let’s say 5 CM options being teenagers IMO.
Kambwala is more tricky given the potential reshuffle needed at CB, with Varane and Lindelof looking very likely to leave by the summer and despite Maguire’s turnaround he might also have interested parties which we may be tempted to entertain. My guess is that Varane and Lindelof leave with Maguire staying and we buy two new CBs over the next two windows, leaving Kambwala free to go on loan for a season before coming back to challenge for a spot.
I hope we integrate Amass into the first team squad during the pre-season next year. He is the best left back Ive seen in the academy for a long time
I don't think that's true based on what I've read. We started looking for DOF long after Murtough was at United but then he got an offer from Inter Miami and Glazers / Woodward didn't want to lose him, so they gave him the big job. He had no experience in that, so we kept looking at established names. SAF (who is not a fan of Murtough, reportedly) recommended Dan Ashworth and we were talking to him before he took the Newcastle job but he refused, as soon as he was told the job would be reporting to Murtough, instead of the other way around.
The Athletic had a big article recently that detailed all that. I'll try to link it later.
https://theathletic.com/5151315/2023/12/22/manchester-united-fotball-news-transfers/
I hope that's not too much of the article to link (it's like 5% of it, in fairness). Mods delete the quotes if needed.
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If they would accept such roles then yes. Can see Fletcher doing so given he’s still very early in his backroom career and can potentially learn from an experienced Technical Director/DOF but Murtough I’d be less sure about wanting to accept a demotion.
Not Academy players.
I'm sure there's some elements of truth to that story with a healthy sauce of bullshit in there too. Murtough's promotion to a DOF is not unusual. What is unusual is the weird structure the club created.
This was from the athletic article:
That structure 0 sense at all. Why would the first team manager report directly into the CEO when you've got a footballing director?
I'm sure there's some elements of truth to that story with a healthy sauce of bullshit in there too. Murtough's promotion to a DOF is not unusual. What is unusual is the weird structure the club created.
This was from the athletic article:
That structure 0 sense at all. Why would the first team manager report directly into the CEO when you've got a footballing director?
And I still don’t know what the roles of Fletcher and Butt do in this setup. Yes I know Butt left completely. Is someone else doing that role now?
Another possibility, one that was reported at the time, was that it was a condition of the job offer.
Which makes a lot of sense from all perspectives. We were desperate, ten hag would have looked at the structure in the Woodward years and thought that it was a poisoned chalice.
We should have told him we didn't want him, but murtough is going to come under fire either way it is important to understand
I know but young talents all the same
Murtough's done a good job and the work he's done at youth level whilst working under the Glazers will become even more obvious in the next few years. Kieran Mckenna was also someone that was identified by the structure at youth level which brought him to the club. So he created the structures and brought best in class recruiters like David Harrison to lead the youth recruitment from Man City. It took him several years to create a structure where he had the best in class recruitment which was being led by Harrison who was poached from Man City.
They brought him into the first team and only gave him a budget of £120m, and then after he had walked away from the Antony deal (reported in Brazil & UK) in June, Joel Glazer, Patrick Stewart and the Chief financial officer Cliff Baty got involved and got the Antony deal done after the Glazer family had come under heavy scrutiny after the defeats to Brighton and Brentford. And this was reported by The Athletic and other outlets.
The biggest change at the club can only come from a ambitious owner. Ashworth and Murtough both took a similar route and worked their way up at the FA and Premier League. And both those roles at the aforementioned organisations involved Murtough and Ashworth overseeing the football side by setting the direction and strategy. Ashworth ended up at Brighton under Tony Bloom and Murtough ended up at United under the Glazers. Leverkusen also promoted Simon Rolfes from the youth structure at their club and in 4 years he's created a very good team. But in those 4 years, he had many problems and was allowed to carry on developing the team even when the league position and results were a frustration. Ashworth was also allowed seasons where Brighton finished mid-table or below, which gave him the time build and develop a team with Graham Potter. And it's important to develop the team with the head coach and DoF working together or there's many examples of things going badly wrong.
I think biggest change comes from a owner and if you have a driven owner, then everything else will fall into place. A DoF sets a direction and that direction can take time to develop. Signing Garnacho for a £100k and bringing in other youth players into the first team is a bold move but one that I feel will come to fruition once we develop the team further. I'm not bothered about finishing in the top 4, as I'm bothered about developing the team. And they've opened the pathway for the team to develop in the modern game by getting rid of De Gea, Ronaldo and breaking up the McFred partnership which can only help us develop as a team against modern day football tactics in the EPL.
But like I've said before, the biggest change can only come from Ratcliffe. And if you're backed as a DoF by a driven/ambitious owner, then you can develop the team and create a strong structure. I've never said John Murtough was the answer but his work as a DoF at youth level is what I always commended him for. And that was before many on here even knew who Garnacho and Mainoo were. So having Ratcliffe in charge of everything is far more important than having John Murtough imo. Because having the Glazers undermining you is never going to allow the team to develop to it's full potential.
And ten Hag isn't dictating recruitment, which the latest article from Whitwell alludes to. And Fergie as much as I love the guy, isn't going to be a big fan of someone who is seen as the person who ended the careers at United of both Brian McClair and Nicky Butt who were working within the youth structure when Murtough arrived. And when attempting to modernise the structure with data and sports science etc, the old school had a big problem and wanted to carry on developing youth the same way they had been doing for years prior.
We always had kids coming through but first time in years , I am really excited because i think couple of them will make it.
Gore, Hannibal, Mainoo , Garnacho and Willy.
Would be very surprised if atleast 3 of them don't make it here. Biggest excitement? 3 of them are midfielder- a rare breed
Gore, Hannibal, Mainoo , Garnacho and Willy.
Would be very surprised if atleast 3 of them don't make it here. Biggest excitement? 3 of them are midfielder- a rare breed
The rate at which we produce players who are good enough for the top leagues has always been brilliant. The cherry on top is some are genuine world class talents.
Despite his recent from, I think Rashford has always been an amazing talent. Producing another top talent so soon after another is rare, and, despite what you think of the person, doing that so soon after Rashford with Greenwood was amazing. Then, in no time at all after him, we see Mainoo. It really is impressive, and it doesn't look like we're going to stop either. There are a lot of talents in the academy that look so promising.
Despite his recent from, I think Rashford has always been an amazing talent. Producing another top talent so soon after another is rare, and, despite what you think of the person, doing that so soon after Rashford with Greenwood was amazing. Then, in no time at all after him, we see Mainoo. It really is impressive, and it doesn't look like we're going to stop either. There are a lot of talents in the academy that look so promising.
Made a thread on this exact criteria a few months back that the youth should be the only target for the team to rejuvenate itself. However, I think the manager will bring more senior players in when the injuries begin to stabilise.
I'd go as far to say EtH should be sacked if he refuses to adjust to this new framework, regardless of short term results.
His ability on the ball is the best I've seen since Gomes. If he learns how to impose himself more on matches and improves his off the ball work rate then he'll almost certainly make it to the senior team.
From what I have read OIe should also take a lot of credit for identifying a lot of these players and pitching it when he did.
In theory we could've had Rashford, Greenwood, Ravel Morrison and Mainoo all starting for us this season.
I'd throw Elanga, Angel Homes, Lingard also could be squad players.
Our academy is still top class
Good post.
Rashford, Greenwood, Garnacho, Mainoo from the academy in the starting XI easily.
I'd even argue Welbeck at his best could start. I like watching Brighton due to their exciting talents and Welbz still looks good despite all the injuries.
Before the current crop, I think we produced two world class talents in Pogba and Rossi, too. I'll always be gutted for Rossi because I still believe he'd have gone on to great things if not for the injuries.
What’s your thoughts with James Garner? I’m curious.
Mentioned it a few times over the past few games, we've seen upwards of 5/6 academy graduates involved in games, big games as well. While forced to some extent it's still brave of any manager to put faith in young players but at United it's what the club is all about.
Also, I'm a little to young to remember the pre 1992 days but having owned every VHS season review, read about those days extensively when younger and so on, there's a similar feeling of change where a United team full of talent but held back by their own demons (drinking) was slowly being replaced by a new, young and hungry breed of players that would go and make history.
Some fantastic talent coming through right now.
Also, I'm a little to young to remember the pre 1992 days but having owned every VHS season review, read about those days extensively when younger and so on, there's a similar feeling of change where a United team full of talent but held back by their own demons (drinking) was slowly being replaced by a new, young and hungry breed of players that would go and make history.
Some fantastic talent coming through right now.
Ole didn't have a lot to do with it from what I know apart from maybe getting involved when a young player came for a trial or was close to joining the club. The problem Solskjaer created for himself was that he brought in Mike Phelan to advise him when it came to recruitment. And when interviewed, Phelan said he trusted his own eyes over all the analytics and scouting, and clubs in the present day had too much money hence the need for a big network of scouts and data analytics. He also went on to say that he never focused on improving player weaknesses but instead focused on their strengths.
The main players when it came to recruiting players at youth level with the exception if Murtough was the scouting led by David Harrison who was previously at Man City and joined in 2016/17.
I don't count Garnacho as an academy plsyer.
Well he is.
I think you should. Been at United from 15. That’s enough for me.
I don't count players that joined after 16.
Lacey is fecking electric on the ball....fantastic in 1v1 situations. I'd say his playing style mostly resembles Eden Hazard when he first made a splash. Two footed, quick, willing to run at players either left or right....