ETH on United philosophy: “Built a side to play direct football”… “Impossible to play like Ajax”

Cassidy said:
Mirrors the club and mirrors the current state of the squad
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I don't know if you're agreeing or disagreeing with my post but I will add that, whilst we clearly don't have the greatest backroom team in the World and there is a degree of uncertainty, none of this matters on the pitch between 15:00 and 17:00, strictly in relation to whether we look like a well-coached, well-organised unit.

Again, results are one thing, but win, lose or draw, you can still look like a well-coached team with a plan, and we don't!

Plus, managers like Klopp and Arteta have really done their owners/backroom teams big favours by covering for serious deficiencies. Arteta walked into a real mess, it was as bad as anything we've been through at United. Klopp has done what he's done whilst running at a fraction of our net spend. FSG have done bugger all for Liverpool financially, they have Michael Edwards and Klopp to thank that they're not being hounded out like the Glazers. I don't accept that every single thing has to be perfect before we can compete with Brighton and Villa.
 
FreakyJim said:
I don't think Dalot suits that style. Mount too - he maybe "tidy" on the ball and he maybe runs around a bit but so far, for what he's been bought, he hides too much. Whenever we try to build up play he somehow always finds an opponent to hide behind. The McT maneuver.
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I agree, I just think they’re better for possession systems than Wan Bissaka and Fernandes
 
Cassidy said:
Its not an experiment, he has played that way before
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We know he's not adapting his Ajax style so you are saying he is adapting us to play like Utrect? Fkn genius. I know very little from his time there but I can sort of see similarities from what I do know. So he evolved his style at Ajax. We brought him based on his success at Ajax. He bought all his ex players from Ajax. Now he thinks fk it I'll turn them into Utrect! God save us all.
 
Watching us play is hard work. The weird half press is getting us nowhere as is our incredibly slow switching of play. Manager needs to figure out what he wants and if players can or can't do it.
 
Cassidy said:
Which is exactly what he is trying to implement, that does not mean playing like Ajax though is it, you have to understand what he is saying.
People hearing the word transition and not understanding that transition is not always from deep, and is evident from what he says he wants to implement transition through a high press (which is dominating in opponents half)
Execution and implementation being poor does not mean the plan is a bad one.

No one is "gaslighting" two issues are clearly being conflated.

1. ETH has not been able to implement his plan effectively
2. ETH said he won't ever play like Ajax
3. ETH has also said in some instances he has to be more pragmatic (e.g when you have injuries etc)

Just be balanced
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He isn't trying to implement a system that sees us dominate the ball though. We all know he's aiming for high press and transition, it's a given not some secret sauce you've revealing here.

Early in he talked a lot about everyone needing to be high energy pressing yet the first and second press are rarely done as a team. Certain individuals let us down in the press time and time again.

In possession rather than dominating the play or working as a team to build high quality chances we play Ole ball. When he talks of being direct that's not what he pitched when he first came here, it's survival tactics which every manager seems to fall back on. Rashford goes through a streak and then managers lean on it because it worked once. Another example McTominay scores a couple and he relies on it despite McTominay in no way fitting his tactics.

No one at this club wants Moments FC that's why we hired Ragnick then Ten Hag. We want quick dominating attacking play with a decent press. It's dirtying Sir Alex's record to suggest the united way is aimless direct football, we always worked as a team and picked moments.
 
Direct football with:

- Anthony: who is not fast, can't dribble, has one feet, slows the game on every counter.
- Mount: slow as feck, no stand out quality.
- Amrabat: Deep in headlights. Again slow as feck and buckles under pressure. Passing range and vision are erratic.
- Martinez: Again slow and lacks in size to defend on counters.
- Malacia: Medicore, no attacking game, can't defend. Small in size.
- Onana: Not very good at long balls. Weird technique for a keeper.
- Casemiro: Not at an age where he can cover ground as a single pivot.
- Eriksen: Only a backup, never suited to start majority of the games; especially against top opposition.
- Evans: Shouldn't have been signed even as a back-up. Joke signing.

Then McTom (Was a DM in an earlier avatar and is now reborn as an attacking mid. Still shit) & Awb (Good at only one on one's & nothing else. Barely looks like a footballer) are regulars.
 
Insanity said:
Direct football with:

- Anthony: who is not fast, can't dribble, has one feet, slows the game on every counter.
- Mount: slow as feck, no stand out quality.
- Amrabat: Deep in headlights. Again slow as feck and buckles under pressure. Passing range and vision are erratic.
- Martinez: Again slow and lacks in size to defend on counters.
- Malacia: Medicore, no attacking game, can't defend. Small in size.
- Onana: Not very good at long balls. Weird technique for a keeper.
- Casemiro: Not at an age where he can cover ground as a single pivot.
- Eriksen: Only a backup, never suited to start majority of the games; especially against top opposition.
- Evans: Shouldn't have been signed even as a back-up. Joke signing.

Then McTom (Was a DM in an earlier avatar and is now reborn as an attacking mid. Still shit) & Awb (Good at only one on one's & nothing else. Barely looks like a footballer) are regulars.
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Such a mess compared to our 'rivals' who have physically good players in most of these positions.
 
I actually don’t mind the concept of playing a more direct style of football. I don’t expect us to be a City - lite team and would be more than happy to see us play a more aggressive, pro-active direct style of play similar to Liverpool. But, regardless, you still have to be able to assert your game on the opposition and control games of football. At the moment I am not seeing the product that the manager wants, if we weren’t particularly great at playing his ‘Ajax’ style of play then we certainly aren’t great at playing this more direct style at the moment either. He does need his defence back and then Id like to see what we can do but it doesn’t look great right now.
 
siw2007 said:
I actually don’t mind the concept of playing a more direct style of football. I don’t expect us to be a City - lite team and would be more than happy to see us play a more aggressive, pro-active direct style of play similar to Liverpool. But, regardless, you still have to be able to assert your game on the opposition and control games of football. At the moment I am not seeing the product that the manager wants, if we weren’t particularly great at playing his ‘Ajax’ style of play then we certainly aren’t great at playing this more direct style at the moment either. He does need his defence back and then Id like to see what we can do but it doesn’t look great right now.
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Yes. This sums it up well.
 
Castia said:
Between these quotes and that starting line up yesterday his head as gone.

We can’t play like Ajax yet spends 400m buying ex colleagues. Surely it was his remit to play good football else what’s the point?
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Ye it’s ok managers saying what they want to do and how they want to play but it’s a lot different putting it into action. I think he thought by signing ex players it will help him settle quicker and help his style of play along as they know it so well. The weird thing is In the first season we seen glimpses of it. Now he’s realised he’s stuck with players like Rashford who can’t play the way he wants and the club are gonna back Rashford over the managers.
 
Bizarre comments tbh. He was literally hired because of the job he done at Ajax and the style of football he had them playing. Not to mention 4 or 5 of the players he’s brought in used to play for Ajax, so why bring them in if you didn’t want to recreate the same style here?
 
Rossa said:
It's brilliant then how we have become rubbish at counter attacking football, and have transitioned into a team that are atrocious at defending transitions. So there's development there.
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We're transitioning into a Championship team and my god, we're going to be the best the world has ever seen at it.
 
ShinjiNinja26 said:
Bizarre comments tbh. He was literally hired because of the job he done at Ajax and the style of football he had them playing. Not to mention 4 or 5 of the players he’s brought in used to play for Ajax, so why bring them in if you didn’t want to recreate the same style here?
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This is what happens when the manager has no accountability from anyone. Everyone just blames the board or Murtough. The manager can literally say whatever he wants and people make excuses for him.
 
DJ_21 said:
Ye it’s ok managers saying what they want to do and how they want to play but it’s a lot different putting it into action. I think he thought by signing ex players it will help him settle quicker and help his style of play along as they know it so well. The weird thing is In the first season we seen glimpses of it. Now he’s realised he’s stuck with players like Rashford who can’t play the way he wants and the club are gonna back Rashford over the managers.
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Then he needs to call this out. Drop Rashford who is literally taking the p*ss. He has nothing to lose at this point, as if he continues on current path he's toast and surely realises that.
 
Gordon Godot said:
Then he needs to call this out. Drop Rashford who is literally taking the p*ss. He has nothing to lose at this point, as if he continues on current path he's toast and surely realises that.
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True. I’d imagine Rashfords a big leader in the dressing room though. ETH will be scared to upset any more big players as that will literally be over if any more leaks come out.
 
2 man midfield said:
I’m still behind ten hag. Rashford, Bruno and Casemiro’s form last season did a lot of heavy lifting. All 3 are having a shocker so far. Add to that the ownership situation/FFP fecking up the window, the disciplinary issues of Greenwood, Sancho and Antony, and the worst injury crisis I think I’ve ever seen at the club, you have to wonder if anyone else would do any better.
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I'm behind him, too. It's almost certain that most managers would struggle during this period. However, I do think the team we've had at our disposal, especially in the final third, should be creating more chances.

I think this has been our problem for a number of years now, and something ten Hag, unfortunately, hasn't addressed. It wasn't spoken about that much last season because Rashford was scoring. Fast forward a season, Rashford isn't scoring, and no-one else looks like they're going to step up anytime soon.

I get that our defence is going to be quite leaky. We have a number of defenders out, but fans are entertained by chance creation and goals that we are yet to consistently see under ten Hag.

Im not sure how he's going to address it. By the way, I don't think it's a case of dropping Bruno and Rashford and it all of a sudden being fine because its much deeper than that.

I look at other teams like Brighton, Liverpool, Villa, etc, who are able to change players in the final third, but still have the ability to create chances at will. We don't do that, and ultimately, that falls on ten Hag, who needs to find a way. I mean, we have the worst GD (-5) in the the top 10.

Regardless of whether people think some of our attacking players are overrated, we should be creating a scoring more goals because that's what wins you games.
 
ShinjiNinja26 said:
Bizarre comments tbh. He was literally hired because of the job he done at Ajax and the style of football he had them playing. Not to mention 4 or 5 of the players he’s brought in used to play for Ajax, so why bring them in if you didn’t want to recreate the same style here?
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Because he probably now realized that the way Ajax play is mainly due to the fact that every academy graduate has been drilled for many years to play a certain system, thus making it easier to play a certain way. Combine that with signings that fit the playstyle or can be trained to fit the playstyle and you got success. It's waaaay harder to implement it at a club where basically every player has to trained to fit the playstyle. In the end it could work, but that would require a lot of time. But that will lead to bad results in the mean time. It's so much easier to play a certain way if it's in the clubs DNA, like Barcelona and Ajax.
 
I have so much frustration with everything going on. It is another wasted season without progress, manager looked tired and running out of excuses, players continue to play shit and pick up their paycheck. Fans frustrated with everything. Glazers continue to sip their champagne regardless how we perform on the field. That's United way since the takeover. I will focus on something else this season. It really suck being a United fan, I guess the coaching staff are also frustrated with this bunch.
 
ShinjiNinja26 said:
Bizarre comments tbh. He was literally hired because of the job he done at Ajax and the style of football he had them playing. Not to mention 4 or 5 of the players he’s brought in used to play for Ajax, so why bring them in if you didn’t want to recreate the same style here?
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Agree. The comments would stand up if he hadn't signed so many players from his former clubs / league.
 
Walters_19_MuFc said:
I'm behind him, too. It's almost certain that most managers would struggle during this period. However, I do think the team we've had at our disposal, especially in the final third, should be creating more chances.

I think this has been our problem for a number of years now, and something ten Hag, unfortunately, hasn't addressed. It wasn't spoken about that much last season because Rashford was scoring. Fast forward a season, Rashford isn't scoring, and no-one else looks like they're going to step up anytime soon.

I get that our defence is going to be quite leaky. We have a number of defenders out, but fans are entertained by chance creation and goals that we are yet to consistently see under ten Hag.

Im not sure how he's going to address it. By the way, I don't think it's a case of dropping Bruno and Rashford and it all of a sudden being fine because its much deeper than that.

I look at other teams like Brighton, Liverpool, Villa, etc, who are able to change players in the final third, but still have the ability to create chances at will. We don't do that, and ultimately, that falls on ten Hag, who needs to find a way. I mean, we have the worst GD (-5) in the the top 10.

Regardless of whether people think some of our attacking players are overrated, we should be creating a scoring more goals because that's what wins you games.
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It's because we dont have an established system of play. Other teams can change key players and there is very little difference in how the team plays.

Look at Brighton - Evan Ferguson scores 3 v Newcastle. Next game De Zerbi leaves him out v United because he feels Welbeck is a better fit for the game.

Scott McTominay scores two as a late sub and Ten Hag wants to build a fecking statue for him!
 
gaffs said:
Agree. The comments would stand up if he hadn't signed so many players from his former clubs / league.
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He’s essentially saying it’s because he has McTomminay and Maguire in his squad. I don’t understand why you can’t coach players to pass and move, it’s basics.
 
We're meant to play better than Ajax have done for 25 years...!
 
Cassidy said:
Well that is obviously not true given metrics around high turnovers and pressing this season. Results yes
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Pressing high while the structure leaves your team vulnerable isn't something to be lauded though. It just shows our pressing shape is suicidal because we often leave huge gaps behind the forward line anyways. And either way I was speaking more towards our creative and attacking stats not just how we press. For a "direct/transition" team, we don't do it particularly well.
 
Hoof the ball said:
Let's be fair to him.

The crux of his great performance last season derived from the fact that he employed AWB, Varane, Martinez and Shaw as a back four and could more or less rely upon his best defence to protect and build out from the back.

The question you have to ask yourself is the following:

Would this season have looked the same if the above four had been fit for most/all games?
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Ironically, for me, that's the biggest problem. How can we be so reliant on a few players for performances. That's a major flaw and one that he's been shamelessly admitting. We are a club he literally had a manager who challenged regardless of difficulties with injuries. We had seasons where Rio and Vidic weren't fit. Where Scholes couldn't play. Where Rooney/ Ronaldo were hobbled. Where our key midfielders Keane and Scholes were injured, and we could always shell out decent performances even with those circumstances. For a manager to openly admit, that 1 or 2 defensive players could have such an impact, not on leaks, but on general performance is mind-blowing. This comes after last season Ronaldo lack of pressing was blamed for our poor performances for half a season. So literally everything has to be perfect for us to play well. That's not a good sign of the manager.

I'm not ETH out quite yet, but regardless of injuries he needs to have good performances in the next few games to justify his appointment. United aren't a charity. We shouldn't be allowing endless time to implement style of play.

My biggest gripe is how lackadaisical he's been about preseason and transfers. Our players came into the season unfit. He bought Mount without having a true plan for how to use him, risking 60 m on an experiment. Despite having the resources available. He had a system he could have developed on more from last season and jumped ship on that. It's the same reason I wanted LVG sacked in 2015, just reckless behaviour imo. LVG came in with a formation that wasn't positive and was a bit of an experiment, bought players for that system, changed the system as it wasn't working and then turned around and blamed the club for not giving him time. I don't know what about United makes these managers think they have a free playground and that shouldn't be acceptable.
 
This is far more damning than any results or performances to me. We hired you to play like Ajax not like Ole. We already had Ole.
 
justboy68 said:
Just bemusing comments. If that's the case then why did he sign the players he did, a number of which from Ajax no less? Feeble attempt at saving face by the looks of it.
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crossy1686 said:
Covering his arse so when he gets sacked he can point the finger at the club despite spending £400m on his own players that he’s decided now aren’t good enough.
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I'm with you both on this one. To me it is the words of a guy that is deeply in self preservation mode right now - almost as though he's sending a message to potential future suitors that this isn't his fault or he is capable of better but can't do it here.

In reality what he is doing resembles nothing of the United we once knew. Where we valued attacking football and wingplay, not Bruno Fernandes on the right and pass it round at the back or hope for long balls/counters. Also, as others have said, he's signed half his Ajax team so it is obvious he wanted to quickly instil principles he had worked on with these players. Unless he promised to bring them for the big pay day.
 
We will never play the football we played at Ajax here,' he told ViaPlay after the defeat. 'I now have other players, that's not why I came here.'
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I'm sorry, but this makes very little sense.

Why the feck did he then either request, target or at the very least sanction a number of players he's worked with before?

Did he go for Antony because he thought he'd be brilliant in the more "direct" system that's apparently in line with United's "DNA"?

ETA Or are we supposed to believe that Antony was forced on him? As in, ETH didn't really fancy him, but Murtough insisted (because clearly Antony has "United DNA").
 
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Ralf was right, this club needs to be blown up and start again. Players aren't good enough. Front office isn't good enough. Appears likely the manager isn't good enough either and his ego is too big to work with someone like Rangnick.

This is the mess the Glazers have created by turning Manchester United from a football club first and foremost and into a commercial enterprise while putting the football as a secondary consideration. Nothing changes with them calling the shots.
 
crossy1686 said:
He’s essentially saying it’s because he has McTomminay and Maguire in his squad. I don’t understand why you can’t coach players to pass and move, it’s basics.
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He is the one that has brought McTominay back in. At the expense of Mount, who he made his number one target.

If he actually believes the Ajax comment, then i think its probably more to do with Rashford and Bruno.
 
gaffs said:
He is the one that has brought McTominay back in. At the expense of Mount, who he made his number one target.

If he actually believes the Ajax comment, then i think its probably more to do with Rashford and Bruno.
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I dont think McTominays presence over Mount is a long term move this season. Let's wait and see how that unfolds.
 
Cassidy said:
He didn't at his previous club, there is a common denominator here and that's United
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United is an issue, but we don't know how ETH views this. Maybe he didn't like the way things were done at Ajax so before he got the United job he insisted on full control. Or maybe he had a look at United and figured he doesn't trust the system we have here.
 
Confirming what I feared. I am sure he initially had the plan to play more like the way he used to but is now stuck with a set of players on ridiculous wages who are not suited to this kind of football at all. Our incompetent board and owners insist of keeping these players respectively sell them only for prices no one is going to pay. And now ten Hag is forced to mumbling some nonsense of United DNA as he can hardly say "our squad consists of a bunch of overpaid players who are just not able to do what I want them to do".

I read a comment by Konrad Laimer after we played Bayern who said something about how they had to deal with our immense speed and directness but at the same time were confused about how chaotic our approach to football seems to be compared to most other teams. And it is obvious that ten Hag himself is also confused. It seemed as he had a plan for the future last season but because of the better players underperforming or being injured he lost the plot and is doing very strange things.

The signings of Mount and Onana were probably in the hope of transforming the team a bit more but right now I don't see light at the end of the tunnel.
 
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