So rumors of him staying next season.
Good.
Good.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
If we do as 99% of posters on here want and get rid of, say, 5 more first teamers this summer, ETH's reign will have seen 30 first teamers leave in just over 2 seasons. He is doing the clearout bit that everyone is desperate for. In one sense, perhaps that's perfect for the next guy. But it shouldn't be completely forgotten or missed. He's 'taken' us from the top of the wage league to 4th/5th depending on the source. So structurally, I feel like it's inarguable that we're in a better position to build now than when he joined. The youth setup also seems to be really flourishing, and he's shown the ability to both promote and integrate them into the first team.
If we go into next season with a fit LB, Martinez and Mount healthy and another few months of development for Mainoo, Hojland and Garnacho I think we'll be vastly better than we've seen this year.
For me whether you back ETH or not comes down to what you believe could be achieved with the actual players he has had to deploy each week. I maintain that no manager constantly having to field McTominay, AWB, Casemiro, Eriksen and whatever this Rashford is was going to be able to succeed. I think the squad is threadbare due to a decade of poor planning and purchases, and that we're seeing the same hangover that every club who plays the most games in a season sees in the next one.
But I agree that the defensive structure has crumbled and more importantly ETH has been unable to instill the mentality needed at this club. The mistakes leading to late penalties and points dropped have been individualistic in nature, but there are just too many of them for it not to be systemic. And these mistakes have been across both players that seem to get ETH and those that clearly don't. I am screaming alongside all of you for him to bring in a calmer head alongside someone with the legs to give energy to the midfield late in matches...but I then look at the bench and there literally isn't anyone to do it.
So from where I sit it's a win-win w/r to the future. If he goes, the squad is ready to be built upon. If he stays, some chips have to fall kinder for him next season.
If we go into next season with a fit LB, Martinez and Mount healthy and another few months of development for Mainoo, Hojland and Garnacho I think we'll be vastly better than we've seen this year.
For me whether you back ETH or not comes down to what you believe could be achieved with the actual players he has had to deploy each week. I maintain that no manager constantly having to field McTominay, AWB, Casemiro, Eriksen and whatever this Rashford is was going to be able to succeed. I think the squad is threadbare due to a decade of poor planning and purchases, and that we're seeing the same hangover that every club who plays the most games in a season sees in the next one.
But I agree that the defensive structure has crumbled and more importantly ETH has been unable to instill the mentality needed at this club. The mistakes leading to late penalties and points dropped have been individualistic in nature, but there are just too many of them for it not to be systemic. And these mistakes have been across both players that seem to get ETH and those that clearly don't. I am screaming alongside all of you for him to bring in a calmer head alongside someone with the legs to give energy to the midfield late in matches...but I then look at the bench and there literally isn't anyone to do it.
So from where I sit it's a win-win w/r to the future. If he goes, the squad is ready to be built upon. If he stays, some chips have to fall kinder for him next season.
He only beat Klopp in The FA Cup because he too has a hair transplant.
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2015
- Messages
- 15,305
- Supports
-
We’re nearly 2 years in yes, but it’s not exactly been a regular 2 years.
In a normal 2 year environment I would expect a bit better but even then I’m not guaranteeing top 4 with how our side has been in the last 11.
Ten Hag trying to get us to the next level required big personnel changes something everyone was agreeing on when he was first hired but now there isn’t as much acceptance.
I think give Ten Hag 2 more years and I think we’ll be closing in on a title challenge.
I've not seen anything this season that shows me he'll get better results and performances next year. Yes, we might avoid suffering so many injuries, but there's no progression in our style of play or elevation of standards in ETH's post-match pressers that tells me he knows how and where to improve.
I’d agree. Otherwise we’re starting a fresh with a new manager which could take another 3 years etc. some people don’t understand how big of a task it is at this club to get rid of all the rot. Like Ratcliffe said, you can’t keep blaming the managers when not ones been successful in this environment so now he’s changing the environment. ETH isn’t blameless though, he needs to cut out the silly things he does like the changes late in games when leading. The consistent of playing out of form players.
We don't start fresh with a new manager. That's a total non argument.
For the bolded, how come we can blame the players then? How are they not victims of this environment? People have no problem saying we need to sell most of the squad but somehow we can't blame the managers.
So essentially Ten Hag gets to benefit from the previous managers failings by being given the benefit of the doubt that managers aren't to blame.
Given he's proven himself to be no better than any previous manager, I assume we could hire any of Moyes, LVG, Mourinho, or Ole, and with the right structure any of them would be successful in time. That's basically what you're implying here with your argument
The youth system has been good for almost a decade now. We regularly produce PL level players. Not all of them will make it. The likes of Kambwala and Forson aren't anywhere near the required standard, in my opinion. It's no different to LvG using the likes of Blackett and CBJ. They'll have decent careers.
I actually look at Garnacho's development over the past 2 years with question marks. He's not really any better now than he was when he assisted those 2 goals vs Aston Villa in The League Cup almost 18 months ago. He's getting good experience playing under ten Hag, but playing in this current United team isn't helping Garnacho or Mainoo. Garnahco has only scored in 6 of the 45 games he's played in this season and rarely asissts goals. One of his assists is a wayward volley that Højlund somehow redirected into the net.
He deserves credit for giving them the opportunity, but I actually feel sorry for Mainoo. Playing in that midfield setup isn't easy. A better coach would have Mainoo completing 50+ passes a game and getting a lot more touches than he currently does. It's his own individual ability that he's showcased, despite the team's woes. Two wonder goals vs Wolves and Liverpool. I'd be excited to see them develop under a different coach.
Plenty of them have fallen kindly this season though. Our xPTS is 42.25 for this season. We could easily be on 20+ defeats in all comps. We were a gee hair away from exiting The FA Cup vs Coventry. It's actually a miracle that he's even in contention for a top 6 finish with the performances we're producing. Blessed vs both Brentford and Bournemouth recently.
Ole juju was a thing. ten Hag definitely receives his fair share of good luck.
There’s still a few players in that dressing room that have been here since LVG and even Solskjaer said last year that some of the bad players are still there. That leaves just Rashford, Martial and Shaw. Like I said the manager isn’t blameless.
Except we all know his style of footballs better than them managers you’ve just mentioned. Yes we haven’t seen it yet but when he came in we was all like yes we’ve finally got a manager that plays a modern style. He hasn’t shown it here for whatever reason but if you look at his Ajax team that’s how we all want to play and should be playing. We all knew the style we was getting with Mourinho and Ole and it just doesn’t work nowadays.
Shaw - LvG
Lindelöf - Mourinho
Dalot - Mourinho
Maguire - Ole
AWB - Ole
Varane - Ole
McTominay - Mourinho
Bruno - Ole
Rashford - LVG
Amad - Ole
Some United fans rate Shaw, Bruno and Rashford as world class. When in form anyway.
Dalot has been one of ten Hag's best players over the 2 seasons. McTominay has chipped in with 10 goals this season. Some of them have saved ten Hag's bacon.
It's normal to have some players from previous regimes. The vast majority of the above players aren't bad players to inherit.
He was hired as United manager just over 2 years ago. It didn't take Klopp, Pep, Howe, Emery or Ange years to stamp their mark on the team.
If anything, a complete failure to implement the football he showed at Ajax after almost 2 full seasons and 100+ games in charge is shocking.
It's been a big step up to The PL from The Eredivisie. He's struggled to adapt. He's regularly beaten by the best coaches in the league.
That famous win against Real wasn't even that impressive with context. Real went through 3 managers that season, were adapting to life after Ronaldo, and burnt out after winning The CL 3 times in a row. Real lost 18 games in all competitions that season. We've lost 17 games this season, which shows you the state they were in. They brought Zidane back to the club quickly after that game. Solari was sacked. Knocking out Juventus in the next round was a good scalp. Then they bottled it vs Spurs.
What are those big personnel changes? Are we talking the board or the team itself? You called it a rebuild, but is it really a rebuild? Maybe I'm being unfair, but the way I see it not a lot has changed. I would be more accepting of our place in the table if we used a massive amount of youngsters at every position and building off that, instead it's veterans and players we've had for quite some time who didn't cut it under Ole and even Mourinho but still get to have a place on the team. He has spent 450 million pounds, yet there is nothing within this squad that has been "rebuilt". Obviously ETH isn't solely to blame for this, but he plays a big part in it. I don't see how you can have so much faith in him transforming us into title contenders within 2 years when he's perfectly fine with all the mediocrity in the team. If we were truly rebuilding he could have pushed for an upgrade at RB and CB, replace some players who have disappointed us for quite some years now, yet he insisted on bringing in Mason Mount who is now permanently glued to the bench.
There isn't as much acceptance because he's made big personnel changes already and they've largely been shit. And even the good ones were more short term than Mourinho's. Also the football we play is rank.
Ange and Emery can come in and get their teams playing recognisably better football with better results within weeks. Ten Hag apparently needs £800m and 4 years to do it? Maybe more? What a failure.
They aren't bad players to inherit if you don't intend to contend for a title or play attacking possession based football. They are if you do. Lindelof is not good enough, Maguire has somewhat redeemed himself but the bar couldn't be any lower. Shaw is great but he's injured more than he plays and we think Malacia or one of our right backs would suffice in his absence. AWB still adds nothing in attack. McTominay scoring goals is about the only thing he does well for us, because we are forever losing the midfield battle with him playing. Most of these are meh players and would have already been replaced by any team with real ambition.
My thoughts too. You might rightly say that either of those two have a better structure behind them, but the reality is that what they are doing in training and on the pitch are clearly working.
There isn't as much acceptance because he's made big personnel changes already and they've largely been shit. And even the good ones were more short term than Mourinho's. Also the football we play is rank.
Ange and Emery can come in and get their teams playing recognisably better football with better results within weeks. Ten Hag apparently needs £800m and 4 years to do it? Maybe more? What a failure.
Well we do if nobody has been doing any continuity planning, at both a playing and managerial level.
IF EtH is given another season I think things would improve, but the question is would it improve enough from the sorry state we are currently in to be acceptable.
Injuries and poor transfers are a small excuse (some blame him for injuries- I give him benefit of doubt, but transfers are solely on him - if he stays he has to have a lot less say on incomings).
What I'd be okay with next year is a secure top 4 place (I.e.guaranteed by Feb, and early season hovering near the top).Of course I would like a title challenge but being realistic it ain't happening.
A defined style of football and transfers to match. Possession based for me.
Off field controversy kept to a minimum.
Sadly I don't see Erik being able to get this.
Injuries and poor transfers are a small excuse (some blame him for injuries- I give him benefit of doubt, but transfers are solely on him - if he stays he has to have a lot less say on incomings).
What I'd be okay with next year is a secure top 4 place (I.e.guaranteed by Feb, and early season hovering near the top).Of course I would like a title challenge but being realistic it ain't happening.
A defined style of football and transfers to match. Possession based for me.
Off field controversy kept to a minimum.
Sadly I don't see Erik being able to get this.
I agree with this sentiment.
There isn't as much acceptance because he's made big personnel changes already and they've largely been shit. And even the good ones were more short term than Mourinho's. Also the football we play is rank.
Ange and Emery can come in and get their teams playing recognisably better football with better results within weeks. Ten Hag apparently needs £800m and 4 years to do it? Maybe more? What a failure.
We’ve just seen Xabi Alonso take Leverkusen from 15th to handily winning the title, and we still have people droning about how we need to give a clearly below par manager 4 years to bring the level of this club down further.
Yeah the structure at their clubs is irrelevant because they did all the work on the training pitch. The thing ETH has spectacularly failed to do in 2 years.
At United when you get a tactically incompetent manager it seems a large number of fans think they have to be given Rices and Kanes to bail out their ineptitude.
Too bad for us he's already told us he will never be able to play that way here.
It's mostly that he played the Ajax way when he was there, rather than Ajax playing the Ten Hag way. There really aren't many good arguments as to why should we realistically expect him to lead us to glory in 2 years or whatever. It's just blind faith. "We'll do better and compete for 4th with some signings and some luck with injuries" should be a given for any manager at this club.
Which is strange because people will have him down as being a manager that plays that style. Usually it’s the managers style they take to clubs. So what’s ETH style of play then? And are Ajax playing that style now with another manager? I seen they wasn’t doing to well. That’s what INEOS are bringing here though, they said there going to choose a style and the manager then has to play that style. So the manager will have to adapt to our style of play as a club and then we go for managers that can implement that style.
Wouldn't read much into the Athletic report. United management aren't going to throw him under the bus while we have an FA cup final on the horizon. For them winning an FA cup in their first half season in charge will be seen as a success.
Reports after the cup final will be more telling of where they stand.
Reports after the cup final will be more telling of where they stand.
Don't forget their go to disclaimer, "There's a lot to criticize ETH for, but [defense for every possible criticism]"
Quite damning
Yes, all evidence quite clearly points towards that.
Emery inherited a vastly superior team though.
There isn't as much acceptance because he's made big personnel changes already and they've largely been shit. And even the good ones were more short term than Mourinho's. Also the football we play is rank.
Ange and Emery can come in and get their teams playing recognisably better football with better results within weeks. Ten Hag apparently needs £800m and 4 years to do it? Maybe more? What a failure.
He'd basically have to change almost everything to succeed as he's been pretty hopeless at many different things. Horrific game management, bad tactically for big games or anyone decent to be honest, virtually no player development (can't think of a single player that actually got better under him), bad at talent evaluation as evidenced by his transfer business (buying former players that are nowhere near good enough and then failing to fit them into the team), possibly not great at managing fitness levels and training intensity (not enough evidence to tell one way or the other). What has he actually been truly good at so far, like without doubt?
By keeping him we are basically hoping that he's a completely different manager to the one we've had so far. We're telling someone who has been an utter failure 'it's fine, we will give you all the time in the world but please do everything differently'.
Which is exactly what I expect us to do because we are a massive incompetent club stuck in some romantic bullshit.
Jason Statham would do a better job as manager.
ETH struggles to purposefully adapt to the flow of games.
ETH struggles to purposefully adapt to the flow of games.
It's a fair enough conclusion, even if you do sit on the other side of the fence to me. But this is my issue with the whole situation, and why I asked the question of why they aren't putting their weight behind him if that's the case. If they believe all that, then why so much silence all this time? All we get is that "they're currently planning for next season with him" or "INEOS won't make the decision, it'll be left to the new structure" etc. If you want to keep him, come out and back him properly. Give him a new contract. They're hanging him out to dry. And I believe this to be the case because I assume they actually won't be keeping him.
What they're doing satisfies 0% of the fanbase, it doesn't suit ETH and it doesn't calm the media storm. In fact the more I go into it, the more I think they're doing a pretty shoddy job right now.
I’m not all for him staying or getting sacked. I’m relying on the club to make the correct decision and will stand by their decision. And If he does stay then I think we should expect him to be a completely different manager because he’ll have INEOS telling him the way they want the team to play and that he’ll have to accept implementing that style or leave. So he may actually leave off his own back if he isn’t happy with some of the changes INEOS will make then he’ll probably walk anyway.
They shouldn't be sacking or keeping managers to "satisfy the fanbase". What TF do we know.
INEOS said they would make a decision on the manager when they had the structure in place to make that decision. That is the right call.
There is no point in sacking ETH with 3 premiership games left and no point in giving him the dreaded vote of confidence now.
They aren't hanging him out to dry, they are acting in accordance with how they said they would make the decision.
How can the possibility of a new manager failing be an excuse to keep an incompetent one? Can someone explain? The things I read on here are quite extraordinary.
Yeh, I think the INEOs situation is more a reflection of where the club is at moreso than anything on ETH.
I suppose if they feel they want to have a certain team in place before making a call on ETH (ash in particular), then holding off on a decision sort of makes sense. Not making a decision is in some ways making a decision.
Bringing in an interim doesn’t really make sense for me as it only adds an extra layer of crap they will have to address in the summer. There’s also the fact that interims don’t guarantee a bounce or better as Ragnick proved and the players haven’t downed tools yet which is a good sign for a manager with regards to working relationships at least.
Better the turd you can smell than the one still brewing, or something.
I''m honestly not comfortable with giving him another season and asking him to do everything differently, it's basically rewarding failure, something we've been doing for years with players and managers and something I was hoping INEOS were going to address by being more ruthless than previous regime. I think if we now extend our leniency to manager, we are bound to do same with players and this will hold us back immensely.
Meanwhile other big clubs are firing their managers for having just moderate success because they expect better, they are selling their players who aren't necessarily struggling because they see better options being available, while we continue to tell them it's OK to be bad.
Yeah I am hoping they are saying that so there isn't just weeks of speculation about his future from now until the FA Cup Final. Would like to believe they haven't bought into his excuses considering how poor we have been all season
Do you accept that INEOs have more information than us to make that call ? Do you accept there are variables , some more relevant then others, that perhaps make keeping ETH now and maybe even next season actually make sense? Might even be as simple as INEOs haven’t got who they want in the club yet and want to make a fully informed choice after these people are recruited.
You don’t have to like it to see that United is in a stage of massive flux right now that means we aren’t in a normal stage of hiring/firing managers “cause top 4 and 400 million spent”. INEOs are in a stage of planning and putting in place long term structures. This season is nearly over , next 4 games are irrelevant in many ways , so hiring an interim is probably considered not productive.