Shows his level. I think him and Maguire are the perfect partnership out of what we have. Aerially there is no getting past either, Bailly is Vidic level of Bravery in his commitment to. Buzzing for him and hope he stays fit. He is going to be vital.
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Shows his level. I think him and Maguire are the perfect partnership out of what we have. Aerially there is no getting past either, Bailly is Vidic level of Bravery in his commitment to. Buzzing for him and hope he stays fit. He is going to be vital.
The big test of whether Ole sees him as a starter will come when both him and Victor are fit at the same time, yes I know they were both in the team against Leicester but I am talking about will Ole leave Lindelof on the bench
Fair enough mate. Yeah I’d probably agree in that scenario. If Eric maintains fitness and current form then yeah no doubt the club and/or Solskjaer might want to risk going into next season with the defenders we have and focus the transfer budget elsewhere.
Yeah there is a possibility that could happen
True. ...another reason to love him!
It's like having a brand new signing, I must admit I had given up on him. I'm glad he's proving me wrong.
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Look I like Bailly but this stat unfortunately doesn’t work for him how many think it does as he’s played a total of 60 PL games for us over 4 and a bit seasons. So 1/4 of those (enough to comfortably skew data) came from other competitions like FA Cup/ Europa league/Carabao and group stage CL for a couple.
Add to this that the other CBs would have played in more teams in transition as a result with let’s face it poor squads at points and it’s hard to call it a fair stat to use.
Id also argue 60 games out of a possible 169 (all PL games since his signing) shows quite how unreliable he is from an injury perspective. One of the key things Sir Alex Ferguson looked at was the ability to stay fit and play regularly.
He's definitely been unreliable in the 4 plus years due to fitness which is a big worry.
I don't really think you can use it for or against to be honest, the stat in itself is a bit pointess.
Way too many variables. Playing against weaker/stronger teams, playing with weaker/stronger team mates etc.
All we can go by now is how he is playing when he is fit, and right now he's doing excellently, not much in the past matters. The only cloud over him is whether his body can sustain a long season of being 1st choice, but there is no doubting his talent.
I've said many times through this thread that I think he's an excellent defender and our only one with real speed which is a huge weapon in modern football.
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You can’t use it to say he’s better than Lindelof that’s for sure.
You can use it to show how unavailable he’s been.
I think both Lindelof and Bailly are good defenders for very different reasons and so I don’t see it as clear cut as some that argue Bailly should start every game. Lindelof is currently better as he has had more recently and consistently enabled us to win and be top of the league. I would rather have a starting CB pairing that is fit and good notjust good.
Being available doesn't make you better, just more reliable.
Bailly at his best is just simply better than Lindelof in every department apart from long balls.
Lindelof is now suffering from a recurring back injury too, so even that reliablity is being put to the test.
I am actually quite confident Bailly will stay in the team even once Lindelof does return to full fitness. Ole clearly does rate him, and it's obvious how well he compliments Maguire in a way Lindelof never really did. If Bailly stays fit, I think he'll be a regular for the rest of the season.
I think this was more meant as fun trivia and not anything useful. It’s a stat where the more of bench player you are, the better stats you get. I would assume Tuanzebe, Mata, Romero, and other who play a lot of cup matches have pretty good stats.
Bailly has started 49 PL matches.
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If I spend money on an asset I cannot use 2/3 of the time it’s not as good an asset in a footballing context.
Bailly isn’t better in every department and if you seriously take that as a position then prove it? Show me some reliable data to suggest that is true.
Shocking how quickly we overate players. I like Bailly but Jesus.
Who needs data? just watch the matches. The impact he has on the team is huge compared to Lindelof.
I don't even think that's over rating Bailly either, if anything the other way around. People thinking Lindelof is anything more than average is frankly strange, he excels in zero areas. The best thing he's ever done is remain fit.
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The data can help to inform opinion. An opinion especially when it comes to defending really is only as valid as the experience or understanding of the person holding it.
I have watched every match we’ve played and I don’t think it’s huge at all if anything they swing in Lindelofs favour from pure observation as he has consistently snuffed out danger through his jockeying of dangerous players. He’s also been available to observe for much longer so a clearer picture of how we play with him can be made and that picture has us at the top of the league which absolutely cannot happen without having defensively sound bases.
Ive found that most of the time people who don’t rate Lindelof don’t appreciate the tactical side of defending the positional play and direction of attacks essentially they don’t appreciate the mental side of the game and instead prefer things they can clearly see. Like this player tackled that one, or this one blocked that shot and often don’t appreciate how good positioning can often nullify the need to do anything and force attackers into low % plays which is what Lindelof is an expert at. The problem with this is you have to know what you’re looking at.
Bailly can be a great proactive defender when fit. But it remains to be seen if he can do this over a season which is very worrying given he’s been here for 4 going on 5. That alone is enough of a reason to have very serious doubts about him being so much better than Lindelof because like it or not being able to withstand regular top flight football and not make errors is as much of an elite skill and being able to tackle more aggressively and Lindelof has done that for us.
Im a big fan of Bailly and equally appreciate what a Lindelof brings but let’s not pretend that there is only one way to successfully defend because were that the case we would not be 3 points clear.
Very well explained and I hope people at least try to understand that defending is not only about being aggressive and no-bs tackler/blocker. All of our defenders are so poorly understood by our fans, it's incredible.
FIFA rates him at 79 overall. 67 for acceleration and 77 for top speed
I just don't think his style is suitable to how we want to play in the future. It's very difficult to be on the front foot and press when you have a defender who doesn't want to make a challenge and would rather retreat back into a defensive shell.
Yes clearly he has the ability to read the game and make blocks/interceptions - but we end up having to sink the line deeper as he isn't that quick, not very strong and not aggressive.
Whether Bailly is the answer in the long term we shall see, but it definitely isn't lindelof.
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Ok does Ole want us to be a pressing side like Liverpool?
I don’t think we’re going for that level of intensity based on our play this season and last I think we are a pressing side against weak teams but not a full Gegen side against them and against better sides generally a sit back and counter using Rashfords pace in particular on counters.
I fundamentally disagree that we are being built to be a pressing side in the mould of Liverpool. I don’t think that we are at all abs our midfield make up and front 3 suggests that too.
Lindelof does make tackles and he does so at a comparable rate to any top CB unless you have stats to prove otherwise? The difference is he doesn’t like to fly into them which is a good thing more often than not especially when you have a side like ours that is conceding a lot from set pieces. Less fouls = less set pieces = less pressure on us.
Show me any occasion Lindelof has been beaten by pace this season. Please. He is not slow.
The retreat into our shape is tactical it’s what Ole wants to happen. He’s said it numerous times since being at United that he wants to keep a good shape and that he knows we can hurt teams on the break.
He’s not come out and said he wants a Southampton pressing machine.
Clearly we do aim to press from the front. When Ole was first appointed we pressed A LOT (the most in europe at one stage) Cavani/Rashford/Greenwood etc all sprint at the defenders and aim them to rush it as they have the fitness required.
Usually that ends up with long balls, and with Bailly and Maguire pushed up high into their half we end up gobbling them up. On the odd occasion they do get through Bailly is there to motor across and cancel it. Look at the chance for Wolves as a perfect example.
For me yes a defender of that type is pivotal to keep high pressure, keep winning the ball back constantly and recycling attacks. If you can stop counter attacks before they even get over the half way line you're going to win 9/10 times.
This is exactly why Liverpool/City don't concede so many goals, they barely allow any shots on goal as they either win the ball high up, or tactically foul.
Lindelof just isn't suited to this point this style but he was the only semi decent defender fit. We shall see who Ole prefers in the long run once they're both fit.
FIFA rates him at 79 overall. 67 for acceleration and 77 for top speed
He was rated 84 in FIFA18.
The lack of playing time is responsible for the low rating.
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Pressing from the front is not the same as going to be a full pressing side and look at how we manage games and pressing in general. I can characterise our general play to contain for 15mins, press and pressure for 15-20, contain. Then half time. Contain, press and pressure sustained until about 70mins then it really depends on our score line as to what we do.
Weve never had one game where we do a full pressing system it is a part of our defensive tactics but not something we live and die by.
And I think this is where people get a bit lost. They see the improvement in our pressing compared to Mourinho and assume we are going to transition into a full high press and then subsequently assume if we press high we’ll have huge gaps that Maguire and Lindelof cannot possibly cover which is complete rubbish.
We have been caught out once this season laughably so. But beyond that our consistent approach has been contain early, press, contain get to half time.
I’d invite you to watch our next few games with this in mind and see if you notice our game management. It’s also why we are more often scoring late and holding onto our results.
Lindelof has suited us just fine and our league position and style up to this point unfortunately doesn’t line up with your version of events.
Who said anything about a full press all the time?
clearly we do aim to do it when we’re on top, watch against Burnley as we kept them pinned back the whole 2nd half.
when required though yes we go more into a defensive position which is normal.
anyway, football is all about opinions and I’ve never liked Lindelof apart from a small run of games where he seemed to be playing more aggressively. I can appreciate when he does play well but often I come away feeling more annoyed by his mistakes than the rare positive things.
Correct.. Why does people us the stats against Bailly all the time. We all knows his past problems regarding injuries, inconsistency and wildness on the pitch. The future doesn’t have to be that way.
Let’s enjoy his play now and hope he continue to perform like he’s done since he returned and started to play regularly:
had huge impact on the team and been one of the best defenders in the league lately. I’m not afraid using the term “world class” based on his last performances.
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So if we agree we’re not implementing a full pressing system then we have no requirement for having the players to make that system work ergo no need for a high intensity aggressive CB all the time.
Yes we do aim to press higher when we are the better side but you’re not understanding my point it’s a part of our game but not a defining characteristic to the point where we absolutely need to have personal only suited to that approach. It’s one aspect of our defensive tactics which again are based around the contain and pressure principles to enable effective long term game management.
Lindelof has not once this season nor to my knowledge last season been beaten for pace and subsequently cost us a goal due to us wanting to press up so high. He’s done an excellent job and is a victim of the FIFA generation who think physicality is the only way forward. It’s the most backwards and traditionally English approach to the game.
At least you can admit your bias against Lindelof and in some ways I respect you more for just coming out and saying you just don’t like him. What I would encourage you to do is observe his play and really look for the following:
- How often he blocks passing lanes and contains threats to enable our midfield to get back
- How often he gets beaten for pace or dribbled past
- How many fouls he commits resulting in dangerous set pieces
At least he gives us a glimpse, of how a world class CB could transform our team. And what kind of CB that we should be looking for to partner Maguire.
He gets beaten for pace against quick people quite regularly - and he doesn’t get dribbled because he doesn’t attempt to tackle and that’s exactly why I don’t like him. Instead of trying to win the ball or make a foul high up the pitch he’d rather jockey backwards all the way to the box and allow a shot on target. We then either make a last ditch block or save and they end up getting a corner and releaving pressure and causing ourselves problems with set pieces.
in matches we sit deeper and try to defend he does a good enough job, but matches where we need to assert ourselves he just isn’t capable, it’s not his way.
I think he will if Bailly shows consistency. That's obviously the key. He has extreme qualities as a defender which Lindelof lacks. If he can perform consistently, it's a no-brainer really. And Ole will be aware of this.
Maguire is the default starter - that won't change anytime soon. The sidekick part, however, is up for grabs.
Bailly's problem has always (as a United player) been extreme variations in his performance levels. If he can sort that out, then - yeah, I really think it's a no-brainer, since he offers something Lindelof can't match.
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You’ve made a claim so if that’s true give me an example of when that has happened this season. When has Lindelof been beaten for pace this season?
Have you seen our team stats for shots on target against? It’s one of the lowest in the league so again you’re not speaking the truth.
Come on mate, you know very well Lindelof doesn't get get beaten often because he barely registers any sort of defensive commitment
2:28 onwards.
0:05 onwards.
Both occasions of elite Maldini level jockeying, 'he who makes a tackle has already made a mistake with poor positioning' Myth TM, completely nullifying the opposition.
No tackle made = 0 dribbled past and 0 unsuccessful tackle.
Always called Eric the best defender at the club! Victor, though a good lad, needs to sit out - he is too soft and so easy to play against.
We need Eric and his shenanigans to police the defence.
We need Eric and his shenanigans to police the defence.
Come on mate, you know very well Lindelof doesn't get get beaten often because he barely registers any sort of defensive commitment
2:28 onwards.
0:05 onwards.
Both occasions of elite Maldini level jockeying, 'he who makes a tackle has already made a mistake with poor positioning' Myth TM, completely nullifying the opposition.
No tackle made = 0 dribbled past and 0 unsuccessful tackle.
Cheers for putting the leg work in, far too lazy to back my points up
I’m glad I’m not the only one that sees it though!
Lindelof's biggest flaw is his lack of aggression. It's like he's afraid to tackle or he's afraid to make mistakes. He's slow, passive & ponderous.
All those crucial blocks Bailly has made in recent games would never have been made by Lindelof. People often say Bailly is erratic and rash but it's that rashness that lets him make those point-saving blocks in the 94th minute.
Take Bailly's rashness away and he becomes Lindelof.
Definitely, we need Eric and all his rashness to play against a calmer Harry - we don't need two calm, ball caressing CBs out to massage strikers as they let them through to score. The City and Sevilla goals we conceded were bonkers!
Probably, but his speed stats are hilarious. 67 for acc... I think he probably outpaces Mane with relative ease if it comes to it.
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Come on mate, you know very well Lindelof doesn't get get beaten often because he barely registers any sort of defensive commitment
2:28 onwards.
0:05 onwards.
Both occasions of elite Maldini level jockeying, 'he who makes a tackle has already made a mistake with poor positioning' Myth TM, completely nullifying the opposition.
No tackle made = 0 dribbled past and 0 unsuccessful tackle.
Clearly not beaten for pace though in either occasion. He has matched them stride for stride?
Your examples don’t prove a point at all.
Are you serious?
Both examples are typical of Lindelof and his approach to defending.The art of jockeying and retreating without doing anything effective. In these two instances it led directly to goals conceded.
However, these won't show in a stat because no one's measuring it but the fact is it still happened on the pitch. It's as simple as that.
Come on mate, you know very well Lindelof doesn't get get beaten often because he barely registers any sort of defensive commitment
2:28 onwards.
0:05 onwards.
Both occasions of elite Maldini level jockeying, 'he who makes a tackle has already made a mistake with poor positioning' Myth TM, completely nullifying the opposition.
No tackle made = 0 dribbled past and 0 unsuccessful tackle.
Lindelof doesn’t tackle very often. Bailly tackles even less. Premier league stats:
Bailly 0.4 tackles per match
Lindelof 0.9 tackles per match
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I asked to show me where he’s been beaten by pace. Those videos don’t show that what I’m trying to do is show that it is a myth that he is slow and easily beaten he’s simply not.
Now if you want to enter into the discussion into the merits of jockeying as a defensive technique that’s a different conversation.
That video was nothing to do with my question at all.
Equally every defender isn’t perfect so finding one example where his jockeying didn’t prevent a cross which only resulted in a goal because of terrible in the box defending isn’t exactly compelling when there are literally 100s of examples where it is effective.
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