[stevoc]

Sorry mate, 2/3 people with an agenda on a forum won’t convince me what is a good or bad performance. He was absolutely fine today.

More than 2-3 people think he was alright but not great today mate look at his match rating.

As for having an agenda you clearly have one yourself mate. While it's commendable to defend a player don't let it cloud your judgement of their performances.

yes in a perfect world he could have tracked vardy better for the 2nd goal but that movement is exactly why vardy is such a good goal scorer.

Yeah i don't judge him too harshly for that 2nd goal even though he should have done better but it happens. Personally i thought he should have done more than the weird outstretched arm pose he struck for the first goal when just stepping to his right could have stopped the goal. All he had to do was stick his arms behind his back and step to the right to block it, and that encapsulates Eric's general play for me. Tries the overly complicated/acrobatic stuff when the simple option would be better.

anyway with lindelof crocked looks like you’ll have to put up with him a while longer.

Possibly and i genuinely hope he stays fit and starts playing well and his presence it doesn't cost us.

 

[stevoc]

Why is his involvement in the second goal getting glossed over though?

He showed good ball playing instincts there with a crisp line-breaking pass that set Cavani off.

That's worthy of commendation.

Who is glossing over it though?

It was a good pass yes.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

He's a clown.

 

[Hammondo]

That's the hardest thing for a lot of players, do the basics, do them well and be efficient on a regular basis. There are lot of great players you know what they'll do but they do it so well that most of time you can't prevent them to do it.

That might be true, but then reading the game is usually what fills in holes or makes the difference.

 

[Bastian]

He's an honest hard working player, brave too. That being said, I think we should sell. One of the few we can get a decent price for.

 

[dev1l]

He's an honest hard working player, brave too. That being said, I think we should sell. One of the few we can get a decent price for.

My guess is 10-15 m

 

[Bastian]

My guess is 10-15 m

Yeah, or makeweight in another deal. 10-15m is 10-15m more than we can get for Rojo, Jones, or Lingard.

 

[dev1l]

Yeah, or makeweight in another deal. 10-15m is 10-15m more than we can get for Rojo, Jones, or Lingard.

Last time I read about Rojo, our latest demand is 5million and supposedly Boca are interested.
Jones may go on loan

 

[Bastian]

Last time I read about Rojo, our latest demand is 5million and supposedly Boca are interested.
Jones may go on loan

Rojo is earning +100K a week. That's what's prevented a deal I assume, because teams have been sniffing around. There are so many players we could have shipped out if we'd have bit the bullet (subsidise their wages and taken a loss) and been aggressive. As it is, I think his deal runs out in June, so can't imagine anyone paying anything for him at this stage. Jones has a deal until '23, and we should not let him go out on loan but aggressively try to get rid, even if we pay half his wages and get no fee. What's the point of a loan? It's not shop-window, because he'll likely return injured.

 

[A-man]

Yeah Lindelof has improved in that aspect. He's getting a lot of consistent games and with that experience, you can tell he has a lot of confidence, which can only be a good thing. You know how I feel about Lindelof's ability though, which is why I'm hoping Bailly can get games/rhythm so we can try using his qualities.

Also, I know what you're saying but he was in the correct positions, so at the very least, we can see he was where he was meant to be. The problem though was that he not being aware or choosing the right option e.g 1st goal, he should have got closer and block the shot and with the 2nd goal, he should have been touch tight not ball watching.

As for playing a higher line, actually I think Bailly has been good in these situations with possibly the Spurs game being the outlier but then that was just an overall mess. I'm not saying it won't happen again i.e we can get exposed by smart/top quality opposition but I think it's worth experimenting with as we can become a bit more dominant and be on the front foot. Ultimately though it might just be a pipe dream. If Ole continues to tinker and adapt to the opposition, leaving out players like Pogba, Cavani etc, he's nowhere near close to be able to coach that level of game I think many of us want. It needs to be a conscious effort and tactic, whereas right now it's far too free flowing and basic.

You can't come out of the blocks and blitz Leeds in one game and then play tentatively against Leicester and expect consistency from a top level squad.

I honestly think people underestimate how difficult it is to play a really high line in the PL. It’s not just to add a speedy defender with decent ball handling, and then everything is solved. For start,Leicester dominated the possession for long periods of this match and more interestingly they dominated possession in the periods where we had our best chances. Im not sure that kind of “high line” football would get the best out of our players, and I’m not sure our players are fully capable of that, to the extent that it would lift us to another level. And most important: OGS is not the coach who can do that and Bailly is not the CB that I want as last man, protecting the high line. I see his strength in pushing forward, not falling back to cover. But these are my own thoughts and I can obviously be totally wrong.
All I know is that it is Christmas and damnit we are still in the title race. Don’t try to fix what somehow works. There are clear details that don’t work, like our poor defence at corners. That needs to be addressed. But changing the way of playing? No, not in the middle of a title race, wait until next season imo.

 

[simonhch]

It's difficult for a defender without game time to come in and play 90 mins and be perfect. With that in mind thought he did well. If he could get a run of games free of injury he'd gain in confidence and we'd see a different player I reckon.

I'm sorry but this has been said time and time again. I am not trying to single you out personally, because a few people have expressed that opinion, but there are two fundamental factors to contend with here that undercut the point you are making:

(1) If he can get a run by staying injury free - It's just a very big IF isn't it? His injury record, just like the legendary sick note Phil Jones, is pretty horrendous; and history shows us that it would be enormous folly to rely on him being consistently available. If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten; and with Bailly, it's been injury setback after injury setback. It would be a huge risk, and frankly unforgivably negligent, to build a defensive unit around his consistent participation.

(2) If he gains confidence he'll be a different player - History has also shown us that while Bailly can produce some top class performances, including a measure of outstanding athleticism and defensive prowess, he always follows it up - within a few games - with a calamitous performance. A performance as ludicrously bad on the scale, as his more sublime efforts can be at the other end of the curve. He has never consistently performed to a high level, even when fit for a decent duration, while being in a United shirt. He has shown potential to be a quality CB, but has always allowed an undercurrent of rashness, lapses in concentration, or just outright shiteness to bleed through eventually.

With both these things in mind, I cannot possibly imagine how we can realistically ever see him as anything more than a stop gap, bit part player, potentially useful in rotation; but also the footballing equivalent of playing Russian Roulette.

For us to be realistic title contenders, we need two CBs that are consistent in both their fitness and performances. For the first time in ages we have that in Maguire and Lindelof, which is undoubtedly our best partnership. What is missing is that we need a little more quality. We either need Lindelof to build on his extended run in the side and take another step up, or we need to replace him with someone who can offer the same consistency he does, but play at a significantly higher level. Thelast thing we should be doing in my opinion, is to go backwards and start relying on high potential, but incredibly unreliable CBs. One of the most important qualities of a defensive unit is familiarity and consistency.

 

[criticalanalysis]

I honestly think people underestimate how difficult it is to play a really high line in the PL. It’s not just to add a speedy defender with decent ball handling, and then everything is solved. For start,Leicester dominated the possession for long periods of this match and more interestingly they dominated possession in the periods where we had our best chances. Im not sure that kind of “high line” football would get the best out of our players, and I’m not sure our players are fully capable of that, to the extent that it would lift us to another level. And most important: OGS is not the coach who can do that and Bailly is not the CB that I want as last man, protecting the high line. I see his strength in pushing forward, not falling back to cover. But these are my own thoughts and I can obviously be totally wrong.
All I know is that it is Christmas and damnit we are still in the title race. Don’t try to fix what somehow works. There are clear details that don’t work, like our poor defence at corners. That needs to be addressed. But changing the way of playing? No, not in the middle of a title race, wait until next season imo.

I said a higher line, which is to suggest we stop playing so bloody deep. That doesn't neccesarily mean having one defender falling deep as the last man on the half way line like peak Barca/City/Liverpool. The reason Maguire is the aggressor and Lindelof is usually seen as the sweeper is because his first step is almost always backwards i.e there's too much of a gap between them two. Having a pacier/more proactive defender means if/when Maguire can't get to the first ball, Bailly in this example will go and close down the 2nd ball. This stalls and pushes the opposition to check their run and enables our full backs and DMs to double up in more advantageous areas. This creates more opportunities of turnover, less back tracking from our team and hopefully enables more sustained pressure as we're not constantly rebuilding attacks deep in our own half.

It's not that much of a stretch to hope that we play more aggresively in the middle of the pitch and try to impose ourselves in the opponents half. We've done it plenty of times. We've shown we can press and come out of the blocks. You say half full, I say half empty. A higher line helps with that.

If trying to improve our chances of being more proactive defensively and offensively is 'changing our way of playing' then yes let's not do anything, accept this is the level of every player, who are obviously playing at their highest potential, been given the best platform and Ole's tactics are flawless. 45% possession against Leicester and 41% against Leeds. Great. Let's continue to play two DMs to shepherd the defence.

I agree we need stability and Ole is not the man for all that he's shown but this acceptance that we are performing good enough because we're in the title challenge is akin to taking a back foot. We need to be aggressive everywhere. On the pitch, off it and in mentality.

 

[A-man]

I said a higher line, which is to suggest we stop playing so bloody deep. That doesn't neccesarily mean having one defender falling deep as the last man on the half way line like peak Barca/City/Liverpool. The reason Maguire is the aggressor and Lindelof is usually seen as the sweeper is because his first step is almost always backwards i.e there's too much of a gap between them two. Having a pacier/more proactive defender means if/when Maguire can't get to the first ball, Bailly in this example will go and close down the 2nd ball. This stalls and pushes the opposition to check their run and enables our full backs and DMs to double up in more advantageous areas. This creates more opportunities of turnover, less back tracking from our team and hopefully enables more sustained pressure as we're not constantly rebuilding attacks deep in our own half.

It's not that much of a stretch to hope that we play more aggresively in the middle of the pitch and try to impose ourselves in the opponents half. We've done it plenty of times. We've shown we can press and come out of the blocks. You say half full, I say half empty. A higher line helps with that.

If trying to improve our chances of being more proactive defensively and offensively is 'changing our way of playing' then yes let's not do anything, accept this is the level of every player, who are obviously playing at their highest potential, been given the best platform and Ole's tactics are flawless. 45% possession against Leicester and 41% against Leeds. Great. Let's continue to play two DMs to shepherd the defence.

I agree we need stability and Ole is not the man for all that he's shown but this acceptance that we are performing good enough because we're in the title challenge is akin to taking a back foot. We need to be aggressive everywhere. On the pitch, off it and in mentality.

We are at the moment scoring more goals than we have in a long time, but having trouble with conceding. And we are actually in the title race. Then it would be wrong imo to move in to a system where you risk more defensively but might score more goals. And also important, Bailly is not that world class centre back who would manage a high line against the best teams in the world. Or at least, he has not shown any signs yet to be that player. He does not have the skills to work as a unit with another CB. He does random things, he lacks awareness of what’s going on behind him and is poor at evaluating risks. He also reacts too late at times, like the free kick goal vs Spurs and the second goal today.

Actually I believe that some key players are playing at the top of their capability right now. Fred, McT and Bruno as example. I don’t think we can expect them to play much better. They can improve over time of course, but now they are at 95-100% of current max.

 

[criticalanalysis]

We are at the moment scoring more goals than we have in a long time, but having trouble with conceding. And we are actually in the title race. Then it would be wrong imo to move in to a system where you risk more defensively but might score more goals. And also important, Bailly is not that world class centre back who would manage a high line against the best teams in the world. Or at least, he has not shown any signs yet to be that player. He does not have the skills to work as a unit with another CB. He does random things, he lacks awareness of what’s going on behind him and is poor at evaluating risks. He also reacts too late at times, like the free kick goal vs Spurs and the second goal today.

Actually I believe that some key players are playing at the top of their capability right now. Fred, McT and Bruno as example. I don’t think we can expect them to play much better. They can improve over time of course, but now they are at 95-100% of current max.

Why does having a higher line mean more 'risk'? I'd say the opposite and sitting deeper, inviting pressure, reactive defending, ceding possession, dropping deep when the opposition attacks is not conductive to a 'good' system that wants to stop leaking goals. We talk about individual mistakes and it's not Ole's fault that the performances of players are poor in games but it's a systematic failing also.

We play defensive and yet free-for-all football because our natural tendency is play a deeper line to accomendate for the fact we are shite at creating chances through possession so we hope for individual sparks or chances in transition i.e counter attacks. This is not sustainable or giving the defensive and offensive players the best platform. It's arguably the best foundation we've had post-Fergie and Ole deserves credit for that but we need to continue to improve.

There's much to be said about Bailly's game or Lindelof's for that matter. Let's see how the former performs with a consistent set of games. With Lindelof's injury, it could be our only choice anyways.

 

[Andersonson]

Totally agree. I hope he'll stay fit and play every game.
Some on here wrote off VdB already because he didn't make "that pass".

Not the same though. Billy has been here for 5 years and has been terrible and injured in 4

 

[ghaliboy]

I've probably said it before but when he plays the game he's absolutely all over the place.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

He did well or alright there but that 2nd goal he has to take some of the blame. He completely lost Vardy, unaware where Vardy was and ball watching, literally did nothing for that 2nd goal as he didn’t follow his man and didn’t even try to go towards the ball. Not the first time I have seen him losing his concentration dealing with crossing.

 

[city-puma]

I think he did ok against Leicester. Their left side did not not produce real threats except one or two occasions.
against wolf, we need to prepare well . They have Neto over there. Cannot give him space to run.

 

[The Original]

Who is glossing over it though?

It was a good pass yes.

Well that crucial involvement added to what you call an ordinary or average game defensively, surely adds up to a very good game especially since ball playing skills are demanded of defenders these days. He did everything well today except for stick with Vardy.

 

[amsoUG]

He is miles better than Lindelof. He plays like a real defender, always ready to jump in head first for the cause. Am not a fan of defenders who come out of tight games with their kits as clean as the referee's kit.

 

[The Original]

I've probably said it before but when he plays the game he's absolutely all over the place.

How was he all over the place yesterday?

 

[Feed Me]

Bailly is a disaster zone. He needs to be turfed out. Zero intelligence. Being maverick as a defender is not a plus point.

 

[stevoc]

Well that crucial involvement added to what you call an ordinary or average game defensively, surely adds up to a very good game especially since ball playing skills are demanded of defenders these days.

Does one decent pass makes an average performance a very good one?

Not for me mate no, i primarily rate a centre backs performance on their defensive display. And besides the pass was at least cancelled out by his poor decision making on both their goals. Not stepping across to block the shot for their first goal and switching off and losing Vardy in the box for their second. Neither were particularly egregious mistakes but nonetheless better concentration/decision making on one or both and we win that game yesterday.

He did everything well today except for stick with Vardy.

For me he did most things ok.

 

[stevoc]

I've probably said it before but when he plays the game he's absolutely all over the place.

He certainly doesn't inspire confidence in me most games i watch him play. I really wish he would concentrate more with his clearances, blocks and headers.

For instance the amount of times he heads balls straight up into the air in his own box is always worrying. Its a habit i wish he would get out of.

He has enough attributes to be a very good defender but he still seems the as raw now as he did 5 years ago when Mourinho signed him.

 

[kouroux]

He is miles better than Lindelof. He plays like a real defender, always ready to jump in head first for the cause. Am not a fan of defenders who come out of tight games with their kits as clean as the referee's kit.

You must have hated Rio Ferdinand then or must think VVD is crap

 

[ghaliboy]

How was he all over the place yesterday?

He's closing down like a mad man, he's pushing the team out and nobody goes with him, he's dropping and the only guy around sometimes and sweeping up the ball with nobody around so he has to come back and link the backline up again. He's fecking all over the place (not as in a mess, just all action) and so many times during a game when I watch him I'm going "fecking hell mate calm down for fecks sake". I'd be nervy as feck playing with him in the back four. If we had a really attacking back four that all clicked chemistry wise and were all madmen you wouldn't really worry. That would just be what it is and it would probably work a lot better. But for a CB in this team with a relatively conservative fullback in Shaw, Maguire who is glacial and admittedly in this case Lindelof who isn't a fullback his madmannery just sticks out. Just my opinion of course, when I watch him. Like Lindelof not suiting playing next to Maguire at one end of the spectrum, I feel like Baily is the opposite past the balance middle point to the far side.

 

[Idxomer]

He had 3 memorable moments, one clearance in the 1st half that looked really good, the handball and him missing Vardy for the goal.

 

[UnitedFan93]

Bailly is a disaster zone. He needs to be turfed out. Zero intelligence. Being maverick as a defender is not a plus point.

So true.

I don't think Lindelof is the best defender in the world but at least he brings a bit of composure, which is vital to any defence.

Bailly has good moments but overall he's just too hit and miss, too rash, too erratic, too chaotic. The way he tackles, the way he flies in jumping for headers, even simple things like playing the ball back to De Gea isn't straightforward with him often putting the keeper under pressure with dodgy backpasses. Everything just seems out of control with him.

If Lindelof is out for a while, we're going to drop lots of points with Bailly at the back. I dread to think what will happen if he starts at Anfield; he's going to get dragged all over the place.

I think he gives his all, but he's not good enough, plus he's injury prone.

 

[Matt851]

It feels like the phil jones situation where he keeps getting chances to prove how mediocre he is in between his injuries

We need to just cut our losses with these sort of players sooner rather than desperately hope they will recover their value. All we end up doing is paying their substantial wages for longer

 

[GledTheRed]

Garbage

 

[Devil may care]

His pace and athleticism are a better fit with El Fridgeinho than Lindelof but there's a brainfart or two around every corner with him as well.

 

[11101]

Hes unpredictable. I hope with consistent game time he will lose that but time is running out. It's only because Tuanzebe isnt setting the world on fire that the backup CB spot is still open.

People might not like Lindelof as an individual but he makes us a better team because he is calm and composed. He will go for the same challenges and make the same passes every single game.

 

[amsoUG]

You must have hated Rio Ferdinand then or must think VVD is crap

I like both, but for some games, there needs to be a balance - you can't have only two Rolls Royce sort of defenders in your backline. We all know it was not the same defence without Vidic.

Strikers are not intimidated by a Harry or Victor, they are intimidated by a no-nonsense Eric.

Here from the words of another striker:
Watford’s captain said: “When you play against Arsenal there’s no fear.
“When you play against a tough centre-half, like for Man United, [Eric] Bailly, you think ‘oh God, he’s going to give me a whack’
“Arsenal don’t have anyone that gives you that fear.”

Article here:
https://www.dreamteamfc.com/c/news-...-defender-who-scares-premier-league-forwards/

 

[amsoUG]

He had 3 memorable moments, one clearance in the 1st half that looked really good, the handball and him missing Vardy for the goal.

He played the ball through to Cavani for our second goal. As for Vardy's goal, If that ball was crossed from Eric's side of the defence, we all know he would have jumped in, but Harry and Pogba stared on.

 

[city-puma]

He is a lot calmer yesterday than many of his crazy games before. I think when he gets a run of games, he will improve the partnership with maguire.
I don’t know why people blame him so much on the second goal we conceded. Pereira was released free on left and get the whole open space and time to produce the low cross. The space could be filled by pogba who choose to stand watching. The cross aimed to the front space in the box. Vardy made a brilliant backward move just in time, he was apparently on the same wavelength of pereira. Considering it happened so fast, it’s almost impossible for Bailey to made the reaction. In the other word, the only way to be better is either earlier anticipating where the cross ends up (a very risky approach itself) or just to mark Vardy closely (this requires him concentrate mainly on Vardy rather than follow the ball). I guess the best strategy for him at that moment is to mark Vardy closely because Vardy is the only opponent presented in the box. But to do so,Bailey has to have better decision making and more crucially better reading of the game. I am not sure he can do better for the latter, because I feel it is more up to the individual talent.
The second goal was a result of failed defense of cross on the left, and that created the mess in the box which caught us surprised. Nothing more, nothing less. I hate to point fingers to our individual player, but pogba yesterday is so disappointing not to help defense on that side at that time, knowing that we lead by one goal and should defense that lead in ten minutes.

 

[amsoUG]

People saying he is not calm are very mistaken - Eric is the most unfazed defender, with lots of confidence and ability. If he can get a consistent run of games, it would help him get his rhythm back.

 

[DoomSlayer]

I think he would work great with Lindelof, especially against teams that play ball and rely on attacking the channels, instead of constantly hoofing the ball.

Problem is that it leaves our 80 million captain on the bench or to play against more physical teams, that would rely more on aerial duels and crosses.

 

[Andersonson]

That handball was so Bailly. Not his fault, as it was a clear accident. Yet, it always him when something weird happens.

Hopefully Lindelofs injury isnt a bad one

 

[Bebestation]

It feels like his brain reads football faster than its actually being played - sometimes it can lead to some beautiful defending and sometimes it just causes him to panic and lead to anxiety.

 

[city-puma]

I think he would work great with Lindelof, especially against teams that play ball and rely on attacking the channels, instead of constantly hoofing the ball.

Problem is that it leaves our 80 million captain on the bench or to play against more physical teams, that would rely more on aerial duels and crosses.

I had the same feeling. The other day, lindeloff on left and partnered with Tuanzanbe works wonderfully well. It probably work well also for lindeloff and Bailey.