When will we ever learn. We cant rely on him to be fit so whats the point of him? 4 years. Not 4 weeks of him being unfit. He's 27. Id take Lindelof over VDB if VDB could only stay fit for half a season. Its ridiculous. You dont see any other team relying and praying for crocks to stay fit. You literally cannot win anything with kids crocks. And we have a load of them.
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Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 21
- Clean sheets
- 9
- Goals
- 0
- Assists
- 1
- Yellow cards
- 4
- Status
I’m not a fan of either player. But Lindelof has been reliable and consistent. He’s a 6.5/10 player at his best, but he does at least stay fit. When you are building a partnership, that’s important.
Bailly perhaps deserves a chance again, but he’s really in the last chance saloon. He’s no good to us if he comes in, plays 2 games and gets injured/ sent off / suspended.
A centre half needs to be consistent and reliable. Bailly has been anything but that his entire career. Maybe he can turn that around, would be good if he could.
White was blocked from McTominay vision, and he focused on Mata the whole time to timed his run. Both made the move at pretty much same time. It would be super human reflex to spot Ben White and started moving while also checking on the free kick taker to time the run.
You can check on the highlight clip on YouTube and play at lowest speed. You can even see that McTominay even moved his head to the right side at last moment before making the run to get the vision of Mata.
And the point of discussion is mostly about communication. Had Bailly put McTominay off, then there would be people blaming Bailly, when tactically McTominay has responsibility to communicate with Bailly to tell him to leave it.
I won't pretend to have a photographic memory of it but my recollection is the kind of defensive calamities you're referring to are a good description of how he gets injured too. Sees danger, it's probably impossible to deal with comfortably, so he jumps in recklessly and then lands awkwardly. Presumably someone can find a video of his big knee injury that happened that way? It's also partly down to him timing his jumps pretty terribly.
Personally I think Lindelof gets unfairly criticised because of his style more than his effectiveness. His gestures and posture in possession at more noticeable than his understated but progressive passing. Maguire might look better at that but he's far more damaging to our build up. But I do also find him annoying. Partly because I don't like any defender backing off as much as he does, and partly because if we wanted a defender like that, Evans was probably as good and obviously a lot cheaper.
Bailly on paper seems to compliment Maguire very well. Aggressive, quick, purposeful with the ball and an energiser in the team. Maguire's not my favourite but his aerial dominance is unquestionable, while Bailly's is often shocking for a CB, and he is a calming influence most of the time. But it has been clear many, many times that when we've had an unsettled defence we've been inconsistent. So as a fan I'd be happy to have Bailly in there whenever fit, accepting his calamities and potential injuries, but I can understand why a manager doesn't embrace that risk.
Personally if we could get good money for Bailly, I'd sell him. He's had a lot of chances.
I don’t want to curse it as we’ve been here before but I’m hoping a penny has dropped. Been quite impressed with him the last few appearances. Still the occasional glimpse of rashness but I tend to think he’s at his best or had a good game when you don’t normally notice him.
Hopefully he keeps it up but I think he might be in with a possibility of starting against Spurs.
Hopefully he keeps it up but I think he might be in with a possibility of starting against Spurs.
I don't agree with the narrative that he's been good for multiple games now. In previous games he had issues with decision making here and there and I think he really turned it around in this match. Zero mistake this time, well-timed tackles, made good use of his pace to clean up, decent distribution, and looked top notch. Hope he can keep it up and stay injury free.
I agree with wanting to see him start more games with Maguire. I quite like Lindelöf, and actually think he’s played as well as or better than Maguire defensively for a while, but I have a feeling Or hope that Bailly and Maguire could complement each other really well given a run.
Bailly often seems to signal need for treatment a couple of times every game, regardless of wether it’s a knock to the heador a pull of a muscle. I don’t know if injuries has made him worry more about pain or if he’s more worried about pain makes the medical staff put him down as injured more often.
Brwned touches on it there, Bailly and Maguire complement each others weaknesses perfectly.
Bailly's a nutter - Maguire is calmness personified
Bailly's awful in the air - Maguire is absolutely dominant
Bailly's rapid - Maguire lacks pace
Bailly's an aggressive defender who defends on the front foot - Maguire, whilst not as passive as Lindelöf is somewhere in the middle there
The problem with Maguire / Lindelöf is what most fans called before Maguire even arrived, neither cover for the others deficiencies.
Bailly's a nutter - Maguire is calmness personified
Bailly's awful in the air - Maguire is absolutely dominant
Bailly's rapid - Maguire lacks pace
Bailly's an aggressive defender who defends on the front foot - Maguire, whilst not as passive as Lindelöf is somewhere in the middle there
The problem with Maguire / Lindelöf is what most fans called before Maguire even arrived, neither cover for the others deficiencies.
Such a dumb post. The whole premise of it is "when will we ever learn? the guy can't stay fit", well the guy's fit and he's playing better than either Lindelof or Maguire. Where do we go from here?
Its not when will he be fit. Its when will he be consistently fit. There is a difference. Where do we go from here? Sell him. And he can take Jones and the rest of the crocks with him. If you think we can build a stable defense let alone a trophy winning defense with a unreliable CB than your post is dumb.
So despite him being fit and playing well, your whole stance is "sell him because he might perhaps possibly maybe get injured again"? fecking hell
He’s 26. Why do people on here love to lie about people’s ages to back up their agenda?
Not really. He blows hotter and colder in that he’s better than Lindelof when he’s playing well, and worse when he isn’t.
He's basically Schrödinger's Bailly, in that he's both great and rubbish until he steps foot on a football pitch.
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Meant now they've both had time to improve
I just got his age wrong by one year. Chill
Tell that to Barca who want rid of crock Dembele or Real getting rid of crock Bale. Or Klopp getting rid of crock Ings. Sure they are all dumb heads. We should hold hold to crocks and base our whole team around them. Maybe get Sanchez back and buy Cavani and Dembele as well. Crock United! We will win easy.So despite him being fit and playing well, your whole stance is "sell him because he might perhaps possibly maybe get injured again"? fecking hell
I hope he really kicks on with us now.
Is Bailly a crock though, or just somebody who had 2 very serious knee injuries in a row?
We've obviously been cautious with him but he looks pretty fit now. I think he deserves the chance to be the main man here, as he will be elsewhere that's for sure.
I made a similar post a few pages back, but if Bailly was at Porto or Leipzig and put in similar performances we would be after him now and calling him a beast
Yeah we should have sold Rooney in 2008, man seldom stayed fit for a whole season.
Is someone criticising mct for perfectly timing his run for the goal because he could have been offside if he mistimed it?
Am i reading this correct
Am i reading this correct
You must not have seen him play, bar Smalling there is no defender in our team with a better leap/jump than Bailly. He may not be that convincing when heading but in terms of getting to the ball he is impressive.
I have seen him play, thanks. Hence I commented on that specific incident. The whole point of jumping in football is to win headers. If he’s not convincing at winning headers then he’s not good at jumping.
I'm sure that in your head you believe you've said something insightful.
Your issue with the player appears to be his injury record, but the player is fit and playing well, so now, to justify your nonsensical posts, you want to sell him because he might potentially eventually get injured. Ridiculous
Im not sure why you have to be so insulting. Bad day? In football there are other factors than just ability. Fitness being a key one. Others include confidence, mental ability an on and on. Just cos hes fit and played well against Brighton B team doesnt exactly mean we base our defense on him all season. He has a very similar injury record to Phil Jones and everyone is sick of him. Plus everyone was up in arms complaining when we gave Bailly a new contract simply because of his injury record. Now all of sudden its lets base our season on Bailly. Only United would get themselves in this stupid situation.
I really hope Im wrong and he plays 40 games and turns into the player we hope he will be. But any top manager would never trust him.
Apologies if I come off as insulting. I’m just really struggling with understanding your reasoning.
Bailly merited a start against Brighton on the weekend due to his previous showing. I don’t think anyone here stated we should base our defense or season on him? Some of us just think he’s got attributes our other defenders don’t? And some of us (me included) think he’s the best CB at the club, but that’s an outlier opinion and not the consensus, so I don’t get where you’re getting this base the season or defense on him thing from?
Clubs of United’s stature shouldn’t be basing their season or segments of the team around one player. There should be quality players all around, bench included. In our current situation, Bailly offers qualities our regular CB’s don’t possess, and which were needed in recent games.
Injuries are part of the game and a possibility at every corner, with every player. Yes, he’s not featured more often due to injuries, but he’s fit now and playing, well at that, so to sell him due to the possibility of future injuries is weird since it’s also possible he won’t be/get injured? And we need his qualities
We need him fully match fit. Hoping we see him in league games more often.
He's not fully fit yet. This basically was a run around to get him fit. However he tends to get injuries because he tackles hard.
He's rough like Nesta: /watch?v=IUUn_FLzVuA
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It was Bernardo, 0 goals and 1 assist in his two PL seasons. I think most top CB can handle him without a risky tackle, especially when 2 vs 1. The problem is that he didn’t throw a last ditch risky tackle because he chose that out his toolbox, he tackled because he lacks some of the more controlled alternatives in his toolbox. Similar to AWB in some ways who also lacks some basic tools.
You are right his injury record is a problem. If Ole thinks Bailly is good enough to be preferred CB, he must also evaluate the risk he is taking by building this important partnership around someone who never has managed to stay fit longer than a few months. In a way it might be better to keep him playing cup games with a lot of rest, so he is always prepared and fit for the day someone is injured.
Conversely don't confuse Lindelof with being 'calm' or someone, who defends using superior methods. He is a passive player, period. Not engaging and waiting for zonal backup does not equate to good defending or exude control of the situation. It's playing to the lowest percentage and at this or Utd's level, well, is simply the lowest form of play i.e not good enough.
If we want to talk about calm defenders, then Blind is the perfect example to use in this comparison. Despite his limitations he played on his own terms and held his own individually and within the team set up. And yet if we want to be harsh/realistic, he still wasn't good enough. Lindelof doesn't hold a candle to him when it comes to mentality and technique, which tells you all you need to know about his actual level.
Your preference and understanding is theroetically correct but you have a confirmation bias with Lindelof's effectiveness and performances. It's remarkable you're able to critically and methodically point out the flaws of AWB and Bailly, which is absolutely fine and spot on in their own context but then give absolute benefit of the doubt when it comes to the Swede.
Very much agree.
I don't agree. People made too much about this past season third best defensive record, only comparing it to our disastrous season where we sacked Mourinho mid season. In reality it's nothing. First 2 seasons under Mourinho we conceded under 30 goals. 2 seasons under LVG, it was 37 and 35 goal conceded. All those time, we really want to improve our defense. Now spending quite a bit, it's just new bottle but same old wine.
It's not about looking at other team, but the question about whether we're really building something up, or stuck in vicious rebuilding phase after making yet another bad decision in term of recruitment.
I watched the same games as you, so your lack of context won’t work with me.
It’s easier to make your defence and numbers look good when you don’t have so many players doubling down on defence duties.
We improved our goals conceded under LVG and Mourinho by barely committing men forward or taking a shot in goal! Our goals scored or shots on target improved with Lindelof in the team and passing out of the back as a mandatory.
Under LVG, it's not about doubling down on defense duties. If anything, we're better at making the pitch big, however, the risk at getting counter being outnumbered by opposition was greater. Smalling pure defensive skill is beastly while Blind ability to read the situation was better than Lindelof. Blind showed he was braver too. Took more gamble even though getting punished for his flaw. Smalling and Blind are very flawed which despite their individual brilliance, it would never be fully covered. LVG is anything but playing low block, and parking the bus.
We scored more in PL in Mourinho second season. Not something great really, but let's not forget we for the good thing under Ole got more penalty than under Mourinho. Point wise, even when we finished 6th in Mourinho first season, we got 3 more point than under Ole full season. The 6th position was level above 7th while now that gap is narrower, while the gap between title intender and team fighting for top 4 and EL places is bigger.
So overall, looking at the context of the whole league, not some isolated stats, we're not moving anywhere. It's the dynamism of league the moves. Getting carried away staying still when it shifts, we would be in trouble as Arsenal finished 2nd by some chance in that infamous finished 3rd in 2 horse race season. Arsenal didn't improve from previous season that season, but benefit from similar situation, just ended up where they're now few seasons fast forward.
You have to count how crazy the amount of saves that DDG needed to pull under LVG & Mourinho. Compare to last season, he didn’t make much saves. The Sevilla game is good example how DDG barely had anything to do but still conceded 2 goals. Last season we were much better preventing those easy chances from the opposition. But still, I would rather have someone like Bailly who compliments Maguire while Maguire himself also compliment him.
I don't say our defense under LVG, Mourinho were better, or we're worse now under Ole. I am saying the level is pretty much the same despite. We all agreed back then( even LVG and Mourinho as managers) that our defense (personnel) needed to improve. So look like we didn't improve that much that we can say that we can leave it be and look at other area of the team. Financial restricted wise, we should try to improve when opportunity is available in the market, or giving chance to our upcoming defenders from academy
Not sure how you call it pretty much the same when one is making the goalkeeper do less works while the other ones are making the goalkeeper do much more works.
Football is played by teamwork. Spanish players, defenders especially was not defenders in the style of their teams' football, yet they can't cover it for GK. GKs in Mourinho teams made plenty of saves. It's a thing with goalkeeping thing that sometimes GK losing their concentration not working much. Stats never tells the whole story or we're start returning some of our PL to Liverpool for their fantasy league table.
Bailey is still not at the standard we want for United. He can be pretty rush at times. Also, he is not exactly reliable in the air due to his weird heading technique.
His pace is decent and that's all about it. If we can get another decent defender, I would ship him out of the club.
His pace is decent and that's all about it. If we can get another decent defender, I would ship him out of the club.
When talking about defense it’s called it as unit not individual so never really arguing about the teamwork. The point is that the defense was better last season than before as DDG isn’t making as much saves as he used to. That’s not based on stats, unless if you don’t watch us play then you wouldn’t know that DDG wasn’t as busy as he used to. When a keeper isn’t busy then there is difference between last season and previous ones.
You can take whoever you want, as this was about Bailly. 95% of all defenders in PL would deal with that specific situation in a calmer way than throw a last ditch two legged tackle. And just like the majority of PL centrebacks, I prefer the calmer and controlled way.
I know the limits of Lindelof. But this was about something else. My opinion is that AWB was good but very overrated because of his spectacular style. His tackles were hiding the fact that he had many deficiencies like poor ball handling, awareness and positioning. When I wrote that after his “Sterling game” a year ago I got a huge amount of critique and insults. It’s the same now. Bailly has been good in his last games agaisnt Luton and Brighton B team, but it’s not enough to compare with Lindelof and Maguire who played more or less every PL game together last season. Again, he has played well in those games but he is overrated because of his way of playing. People say he is the best defender at the club.He kept two clean sheets against weak teams, just like the other defenders did. Bailly has had his weaknesses with awareness, decision making and positioning. He wants to be where the ball is, not where he should be. He often misses what is happening behind him. Etc. Could be he has fixed that as I haven’t seen any problems with that in the two last matches. Or it was just because it was only 2 matches against weak teams.
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