I don't get it. I know managers like Poch have forgotten more about football than I've ever known but why mess with his position. At least for Argentina it was clear he was brilliant as DLP, why would you move him further forward?
Enzo 'Terry' Fernandez | Vice-Captain of Chelsea
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I don't get it. I know managers like Poch have forgotten more about football than I've ever known but why mess with his position. At least for Argentina it was clear he was brilliant as DLP, why would you move him further forward?
Trade him for Mount
He'd ride the bench behind Mainoo and I'm not even joking
You cannot be serious.
Alright John McEnroe
I'm dead serious. Enzo is a really good passer but not suitable to play #6 or #10. The only role for him would be at #8 and Mainoo brings more to the table than him there already.
He's technically very very good, great in tight space with amazing control.
Mainoo might be better in time, but he's a kid and has a lot of developing to do
That's also true for Mainoo, isn't it...
I honestly think it was because Enzo wanted to play further forward. Potter and Lampard said we had to play him deeper because we sold Jorginho. Poch at the start of the season said Enzo wanted to play with more freedom, I think after the Liverpool match. He's so much more involved playing deeper though.
Sorry mate Lavia isn’t a real person. He’s just a thought experiment
Think it depends what you use your academy for, they have the premier talents and use them to make money so in that sense it's been very good for them. In terms of integrating youth players, yeah, they're pretty abysmal at it. They had a spell under Lampard due to the transfer ban where they were decent at integrating but that's been about it.
Yeah I don’t think he’s dynamic enough to play further forward. Not really a goalscorer/runner and his top class passing range gets wasted a bit. Hes much better for me as a deeper lying metronome that can be a secondary creator.
tumescent footballer
We’ve integrated a new academy player pretty much every single season since that Lampard season. That was nearly 5 years ago. Tell me how many other clubs have done that? Unless the expectation is that Chelsea should be rolling with teams made up of 90% academy products, then I think it’s a bit harsh to say we’re abysmal at integrating youth.
What’s happening here is that Chelsea are producing PL level players at a much higher clip than almost any other club in this league but then also get the most criticism for letting the most academy players go, despite keeping a lot of them too. There some obvious high profile blunders that Chelsea messed up in (Mount, Tomori, even Hall etc) but it’s not nearly as bad as some like to pretend it is.
Some of the names you have let go..
Tomori
Guehi
Mount
Hall
Abraham
Liveramento
Lamptey
Rice
Olise
Nketiah
Solanke
Ake
Gilmour
Quite a few blunders I’d say.
I’ll also add the likes of Maatsen, Gallagher and Broja given they look likely to move on soon?
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United have, don't know about any of the other top 6. Abysmal is probably a bit harsh, but I still don't think you're particularly great at it. My expectation, personally, isn't that you should be 90% academy players, I just can't help but feel half (exaggeration) of the players you let go were better than some of what you had on the books or their replacements, to me that's an integration problem. If what you say is true then you're obviously better at it than you used to be.
Suppose you're better at it than Liverpool who've brought through about 3 players in 10 years and get lauded as being great with bringing through youth.
Another question I have is how long do Chelsea remain having the best academy in the country? That was entirely Abramovich's doing, now he's no longer in the picture I do wonder if it begins to decline in quality over the next decade or so under the new ownership structure.
Absolutely. When you look at the list I posted and who they have brought in (sold) and had to replace again, you’d still say what they had in the first place was as good or better.
If that doesn’t highlight an integration issue I don’t know what does!
And Ederson would be a midfielder if he had a say, very few fullbacks grew up wanting to be fullbacks (well until recently atleast).
It's the job of a coach to save players from themselves.
Some of those aren’t blunders. Letting go of a kid at 13-14 isn’t a blunder ffs. I certainly wouldn’t consider a player who took until the age of 26 to become a good PL player a blunder, that also had a chance at Liverpool but wasn’t good enough. You are just listing players for the sake of listing players.
Nketiah, Rice and Olise were 13-14-15 years old. That shit happens. Not blunder at that age.
We’ve gone over Lamptey and Livramento before but you can’t force players to stay when they don’t want to. Both were offered deals but they saw Reece James ahead of them and rightly thought they’d be better off playing elsewhere. Not a blunder if the players themselves ask to leave.
Solanke is having his breakout season aged 26. He’s a blunder?
That’s half of your list already that I think is nonsense.
He is a very good player. Does bring a big smile to my face that I think I'm being reasonably objective when I say Mainoo is slightly better and he came through our academy but no issues with Enzo. Chelsea's spending over the last 2 years has just been a bit crazy.
To be fair you also just stockpiled players so it is inevitable you let a few good ones go. Whether that's a good thing to do or not is a question but realistically you probably made profit overall and the ones that were good enough to succeed did so.
Yeah that’s a better angle of criticism, and more interesting to discuss, I think than just listing a random collection of players that were let go for one reason or another.
Off the top of my head we've had atleast one integration every year bar one since Conte.
Cobham has in the present day more players in the major European leagues than any other academy certainly British one. All major leagues bar the French league have had a Cobham graduate win it within the previous two seasons.
In the 2021 UCL win we had three academy players on the pitch which if I'm not mistaken can only be bettered by Barca since the turn of the millennium.
I think IIRC not long ago every single PL fixture in a certain weekend had a Cobham developed player in atleast one of the teams matchday squads.
Yet despite all that we have people genuinely claiming with a straight face that we mistreat academy players
I mean most of the academy players we’re discussing here had been at Chelsea since U10. I’m not sure we can call that stockpiling.
I said quite a few blunders. Perhaps some of them aren’t.
Abraham and Solanke are arguably better than the host of CFs you have signed since them. They probably have more PL goals between them than any other.
Id be gutted if United were ditching so many talented young players and signing lower quality ones for big money myself. It looks like Maatsen will move, along with Broja and Gallagher in the summer. Surprised this kind of thing doesn’t bother you.
If you think that’s a sign of excelling in youth integration then we will agree to disagree I guess.
What?
Solanke forced a move away to Liverpool. He wasn’t ditched by Chelsea. He wanted to leave. And even then I took him until the age of 26 to have a breakout PL season. I’m happy for him. I’ll always be rooting for him, but letting player like him go isn’t really something I’d hold against the club. And again, he wanted to leave. Can’t force players to stay.
Tammy I’d agree with you but I’d by hypocrite if I didn’t at least mention that I was happy to sell him at the time. Wrong decision in hindsight.
I am gutted about this. You know this. We’ve had this same discussion so many times I’m surprised you still frame your posts to me in the way you do. I argue with you because you present your criticism (some of which I agree with) in such black and white terms without any context with overly negative phrasing. I’ll always defend my club or add the context I feel is missing.
Anyway, this is the Enzo Fernandez thread. Sorry for detailing it. I love this guy. Such a sublime player. He’s amazing to watch.
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This is a fair response and I appreciate your views even if we may disagree on some bits.
Enzo is a fantastic footballer who is bring to OT in a heartbeat and make it work with our motley crew of midfielders. The Rubio have for him us that Chelsea are going in the wrong direction, which makes me sad as I’d love to see United and Chelsea battle each other for the PL trophy.
Always happy to discuss Chelsea youth.
Not to derail the thread but this is where I think Mainoo is best at. Caveat being I don't think we have seen his range of passing. But I think Mainoo can be that metronome connector in midfield.
He was good yesterday but been very inconsistent. Especially when playing higher up.
That free kick is the first time I could say you can understand the fee paid. He should be on all out dead balls, don't need another player as was suggested earlier this week?
That free kick is the first time I could say you can understand the fee paid. He should be on all out dead balls, don't need another player as was suggested earlier this week?
Yeah and we finally got a box midfield which has been obviously needed. Jackson's attacking runs were also crucial since it created a ton of space between Villa's defense and midfield - no clue why Mudryk can't at the very minimum do this but the difference was night and day.
I think technically that would make him a piece of infrastructure meaning he becomes inadmissible for FFP.
Todd Boehly does it again!
He did it. He's now a €121m player.
I'm leaving the silly numbers nowadays are paid for roles in the past didn't command such prices, because that's the market, hardly Enzo's fault.
Here are some things regarding Enzo:
He gain his place in River via hardwork, he initially was loan, he dealt with it by playing great and returned home being praised.
He was sold to Benfica, he was great since minute one there on every competition, including CL.
He was called up by the NT, he was given first team place and played great.
So lots of clubs started to seek his transfer...YET, HE SHOULD HAVE STAYED IN BENFICA FOR AT LEAST THE END OF THAT SEASON (dunno if Benfica itself pressure him with such a sum involved), not because he doesn't have talent to play in EPL (for christ sake sometimes people think that to play in EPL players should be Christ walking on water). But because he was in a great place, huge club, instantly loved, CL competition, gaining experience and consolidating.
Such a Huge PRICE TAG on your head in an already disfunctional team, with lots of new players and lots of injuries, etc...mmm not a great deal besides MONEY.You have to be another type of player and even with a diff role to actually survive that scenario if things do not click instantly with the team. You have to be a Tevez, Ibra, sort of fella and type of role and abilty to at least gain personal recognition even if the ship is sinking.
For me now he has TO DEAL with it, this whole thing of leaving now, stinks. It would leave a stain in his carreer even if he ends having a great one. Lucky for him, that stain won't be as huge as going to Real with bad timing or such, but still would be a stain.
To the very least he has to recover the level of his arrival to Chelsea, that was pretty good among a sea of pretty bad level. And he has to raise above that initial level, at least in an individual aspect.
He is young, he must not listen to the whole "leave this club now", he has to overcome it, earn it and even if Chelsea still sucks and ends leaving, he has to do it in a great individual level, sthg. it's not what is happening now.
Bad luck if Poch isn't nailing it, the injuries, the bad connection with his mates, he has to at least try it.
Here are some things regarding Enzo:
He gain his place in River via hardwork, he initially was loan, he dealt with it by playing great and returned home being praised.
He was sold to Benfica, he was great since minute one there on every competition, including CL.
He was called up by the NT, he was given first team place and played great.
So lots of clubs started to seek his transfer...YET, HE SHOULD HAVE STAYED IN BENFICA FOR AT LEAST THE END OF THAT SEASON (dunno if Benfica itself pressure him with such a sum involved), not because he doesn't have talent to play in EPL (for christ sake sometimes people think that to play in EPL players should be Christ walking on water). But because he was in a great place, huge club, instantly loved, CL competition, gaining experience and consolidating.
Such a Huge PRICE TAG on your head in an already disfunctional team, with lots of new players and lots of injuries, etc...mmm not a great deal besides MONEY.You have to be another type of player and even with a diff role to actually survive that scenario if things do not click instantly with the team. You have to be a Tevez, Ibra, sort of fella and type of role and abilty to at least gain personal recognition even if the ship is sinking.
For me now he has TO DEAL with it, this whole thing of leaving now, stinks. It would leave a stain in his carreer even if he ends having a great one. Lucky for him, that stain won't be as huge as going to Real with bad timing or such, but still would be a stain.
To the very least he has to recover the level of his arrival to Chelsea, that was pretty good among a sea of pretty bad level. And he has to raise above that initial level, at least in an individual aspect.
He is young, he must not listen to the whole "leave this club now", he has to overcome it, earn it and even if Chelsea still sucks and ends leaving, he has to do it in a great individual level, sthg. it's not what is happening now.
Bad luck if Poch isn't nailing it, the injuries, the bad connection with his mates, he has to at least try it.
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Having a model based on making profit from selling academy players isnt something I’d argue is reasonable to criticise Chelsea for.
Especially given the context of all the listed players who have left I can’t think of one where I’d be thinking at the time Chelsea dropped the ball.
That’s a little short sighted though isn’t it? And not how you approach letting youth players leave. It’s not the here and now but the management of potential and providing the opportunity and platform for it to develop.