Wasn't that impressed with Shadab tbh. He had good control but he really fizzed it in - not sure you can be a top-class leggie bowling so flat. Plus he doesn't turn it as much as the top bowlers.
English & Irish Cricket Summer 2018
- Thread starter ArmchairCritic
- Start date
The one who only played 21 tests and averaged over 35?
Ok, maybe bad example with Azhar. But the point stands - none of those bowlers bar Amir would have been a test regular back in the 90s.
Last edited:
Their bowling line up is top notch. Especially in ODIs and T20s.
The one who would easily have claimed his place among those bowlers decided to waste his life on drugs and match fixing.
I am sorry mate, have to disagree. Abbas has been magnificent (an average of 21) in the 6 games he has played, Hasan has been superb the last 2 years in limited over cricket against all opposition so its no surprise he played well and Amir's talent we all know about. And we did not even need Yasir, who dismantled England numerous times. There is no point comparing them to Wasim and Waqar, all time greats. This is like me saying United's attack isn't top drawer because Sanchez, Martial, Lukaku are poor compared to Cantona. This attack won us the CT when we hammered top teams and have played very well the last year and a half so its no surprise they are clicking in Tests as well.
I knew we were going to do well because we have a lot of talent in our line-up. Babar has been a revelation and he was going to show his talent in Tests sooner than later. Haris played excellent before injury ruined him for years but no Pakistani had any doubt he would do well in Tests, which he has. Shafiq and Azhar we all know about. And it also helps England are nothing without Cook and Root so you're correct about that. But the fact is no subcontinent side have ever won in May in England, which tells you how hard it is to play England under clouds, especially against Broad and Anderson.
People like Buttler, Stoneman have no business being near this team. And there was no point playing Bess against our side who are good against spinners.
Because not every player will be as good as them. How does that even make sense, none of India's line up will be as good as Tendulkar or none of Australia's bowlers right now will be good as the ATG Aussie side of 2005, it doesn't mean they are not top drawer.
For a 19yo in only his third Test game he did fine.
As I said, Yasir will take his place when he’s fit but the talent is there, he bowls a terrific Googly & if developed properly he can be a star in the Test game.
If you're comparing someone to a top-drawer player, and saying they're not as good, by definition the player being compared isn't top-drawer. Also the Pakistan side I was using as a benchmark (Wasim, Waqar etc) wasn't an ATG side. It was very good, but not great.
But anyway my purpose wasn't to denigrate Pakistan, far from it. They played really well and look extremely well coached. They may lack the talent of the past but they're more than the sum of their parts. Wish England were the same.
Mate the more leggies there are at the top of the world game, the better. But I'm not sure he'll reach the levels of Yasir, Saqlain or Mushtaq. Think he might be more of a T20 star.
Wasim, waqar are ATGs though
I am not comparing them to anyone, you are.
By top drawer I mean they are very good, which they have proven to be not only in this series but in the past year or so. You're comparing them to Wasim, Waqar, Mushtaq. Two of them being all-time greats and then saying the present attack wouldn't get into that team. Well ofcourse it wouldn't, most of our bowlers wouldn't get into a side that had Wasim, Waqar, Mushtaq, Shoaib as our bowlers.
But that doesn't mean they aren't good.And I get your point that England aren't a great side right now but our team, albeit talented, is very inexperienced. Broad and Anderson are ageing already and England don't even have a bowler to replace them. Apparently Bayliss has lost more than 50% of the test matches as well, shocking.
I am not comparing them to anyone, you are.
By top drawer I mean they are very good, which they have proven to be not only in this series but in the past year or so. You're comparing them to Wasim, Waqar, Mushtaq. Two of them being all-time greats and then saying the present attack wouldn't get into that team. Well ofcourse it wouldn't, most of our bowlers wouldn't get into a side that had Wasim, Waqar, Mushtaq, Shoaib as our bowlers.
And I get your point that England aren't a great side right now but our team, albeit talented, is very inexperienced. Broad and Anderson are ageing already and England don't even have a bowler to replace them. Apparently Bayliss has lost more than 50% of the test matches as well, shocking.
Most of the world's bowlers.
Pleasantly surprised at how organised and prepared we look in English conditions so far, given it's still a young, inexperienced side in transition.
Although it is a good time to face an England side that still has the same problems it's had for a few years now.
Although it is a good time to face an England side that still has the same problems it's had for a few years now.
Who are you referring to?
I'm also surprised by how well the Pakistan team have adapted so quickly to these conditions - I don't think they've played a lot of test cricket recently.
Asif, I assume.
Asif.
feck off Ed Smith you stupid idiot, replacing Stoneman with the proven test failure Keaton Jennings WTF , and Malan keeps his place what’s that all about
, and Malan keeps his place what’s that all aboutI think the Test against Ireland in very swinging conditions and then the county games helped a lot. Normally every Asian team in May is easily beaten but this time our preparation was really good.
Has anyone seen the Al-Jazeera documentary on match fixing? Absolutely damning on the game of cricket, one bookie saying they can influence 60-70% of international matches and name 3 English players in his pocket (who proceeded to verify the spot-fix he put forward).
Worst of all, he says the company he works for 'D-Company', owned by Dawood Ibrahim, has connections in the ICC which mean they are never worried about them. Horrific to the integrity of the sport.
Worst of all, he says the company he works for 'D-Company', owned by Dawood Ibrahim, has connections in the ICC which mean they are never worried about them. Horrific to the integrity of the sport.
It's a little ironic that with their considerable rise in Limited overs cricket, England have become one of the poorer test teams around.
That's not entirely true. I can't remember whether it was 2011 or 2014 but Sri Lanka had a great tour prior to India getting destroyed in July/August.
That was a surprise, I am talking generally. Anytime there are clouds Asian teams get wrecked.
Also taking advantage of an England side that had mental scars from getting drubbed by the Aussies.
They were then bounced out by Ishant bloody Sharma in the first test against India.
England need to bin Bayliss, take the captaincy off Root and let him focus on his batting and blood more youth rather than pursue dead ends with Stoneman, Malan, Wood etc.
Don't think it's ironic. Think the two facts are quite related.
I think you're right on Bayliss and Root. Bayliss just doesn't seem to be a good enough red ball coach. Root seems weighed down by the captaincy. Who replaces Bayliss and Root though?
He still averages 50 with the bat as captain. It's more the baffling decisions he makes in the field that worry me.
Reminds me of when India gave the captaincy to Tendulkar for a year or two - he averaged above 50 but India, on a whole, were really poor.
I can't remember exactly when that was for Tendulkar, but the thing that strikes me with England now is just how threadbare the options are.
Root's pretty much only got the job because there was no one else anyway, and beyond that there's Stokes – who is lucky to be in the side again already, Bairstow – who, as far as I'm aware has no captaincy experience, Broad, and Anderson who are guaranteed picks (discounting Cook who obviously has had his go and doesn't want it anymore).
There's been some fan talk of getting Morgan is as a specialist captain, as if England can afford that, and there was talk one of the reasons they liked Vince is because he was a leader, but given that Vince has been dropped and Smith doesn't seem to rate him, it's difficult to see who on earth they can turn to if they were going to take it off Root.
I can't help but think part of the reason they're desperate for Buttler to make it in test cricket is they fancy him as captain.
The thought crossed my mind too, I know he's captained a few T20 games. Is he currently England's limited overs vice captain as well?
Assume so, given it was only a couple of years back that he captained the tour to Bangladesh.
Yeah there's no natural choice. As @DiseaseOfTheAge it might be a reason why they brought Buttler back, Smith did mention his maturity. The thing is with Root, England need him averaging 60+ and scoring big 100s because he's the only guy in the country that can be a consistently world class bat.
There's no point having him focus his energy on being an average at best captain if it's going to stop him making that next step as a batsman, there's also no guarantee that taking the captaincy off of him will help him take that next step but my gut feel is that he's not batted with the same fluency since he's had the captaincy and that it will always weigh on him in critical situations where England need him focused on batting.
Everything about the team at the moment feels less than ideal and England need to start approaching test cricket with some clarity on how they want to play the game. The best thing they can do right now is ensure they are extracting the absolute maximum out of Cook, Root, Bairstow, Stokes, Broad and Anderson.
Interesting comment from Bayliss after the game on the bowling:
I think you may have been right in the end @DiseaseOfTheAge, it appears that Broad and Jimmy are entrenched in their methods as opposed to being receptive to advice. Rather than Bayliss imparting on them what their role in the side is or them adapting to the team needs, they appear to have dictated to Bayliss what they think their role in the side is.
A big frustration watching this team is how slow they are to adapt to conditions and how little authority Root seemingly has over his experienced quicks.
I think you may have been right in the end @DiseaseOfTheAge, it appears that Broad and Jimmy are entrenched in their methods as opposed to being receptive to advice. Rather than Bayliss imparting on them what their role in the side is or them adapting to the team needs, they appear to have dictated to Bayliss what they think their role in the side is.
A big frustration watching this team is how slow they are to adapt to conditions and how little authority Root seemingly has over his experienced quicks.
Last edited:
Yeah I agree with this.
I'm not privy to anything in or near the dressing room but Broad and Anderson have always struck me as slightly arrogant and petulant. Broad was right at the heart of the whole Pietersen shambles and Anderson has a reputation as one of the most disliked people in world cricket for his sledging. Neither has ever served as captain or vice-captain of the test team, and Broad's stint as T20 captain was cut short very quickly. Given the lack of obvious alternatives, that's pretty damning.
I wonder if there is anyone in the England set-up strong enough to tell them what to do. We've regularly seen them bowl too short in helpful conditions, so why does it keep happening? If they had a Hussain or a Vaughan in charge, perhaps they'd adjust their lengths more quickly.
Vaughan said that Broad should be dropped for Headingley and I'd go along with that. Woakes will do just as a good a job as Broad on current form and he's a much better batsman. It's unfair to bin Wood because two bowlers who specialised in the Lords conditions messed it up, and given we're trying to bring more pace into the team it would be ridiculously counter-productive and short-sighted.
Yeah agreed. Spoke to Darren Gough about this a while ago and he suggested Root might not be a great captain.
Stokes and Bairstow are both all-rounders so can't really ask them to do it. Broad and Anderson are bowlers, and you rarely give them captaincy duties. Plus, as I suggested in a previous post, they might not be seen as leadership material (they've never even been vice-captain at test level).
Hopefully we're looking at people with leadership potential as part of the assessment on upcoming batsman. Livingstone is already captaining Lancs - he's not got many runs this year but it might be worth sticking him in anyway, with long-term development in mind. You've also got Burns captaining Surrey and I remember Lawrence at Essex captaining age-group sides.