English cricket thread

Abraxas said:
Malan averages 60 so far in ODIs, S/R of 90 odd. Averages 40 in 20/20 with a S/R of 137. Surprised to see discontent, I'd love to know what performances are acceptable. Think we're finding things to question to be honest. I do think he's more suited to opening than 3 though.
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He’s not good enough for this England side, that’s not unfair on him to say, this side is ridiculous. He’s not going to displace any of the top 3 of Bairstow, Roy or Root. Salt has clearly played his way into being the backup opener as we play with super aggressive openers, so backup to Root is the best he can ask for.

Similar when it comes to T20, he’s not as good as the openers and Root should be stepping in as the 3 behind Buttler and Roy, and even if one of those openers miss out then you just slot Bairstow in there.
 
phelans shorts said:
He’s not good enough for this England side, that’s not unfair on him to say, this side is ridiculous. He’s not going to displace any of the top 3 of Bairstow, Roy or Root. Salt has clearly played his way into being the backup opener as we play with super aggressive openers, so backup to Root is the best he can ask for.

Similar when it comes to T20, he’s not as good as the openers and Root should be stepping in as the 3 behind Buttler and Roy, and even if one of those openers miss out then you just slot Bairstow in there.
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In ODIs there's probably a good argument that he's not as good as some of these guys as he has limited exposure and some of that is against Holland which doesn't mean a lot.

I don't see how all these guys are better in 20/20. The stats say something completely different. How do you average 40 and S/R 137 and become our top ranked batter yet everyone says someone else is better? That's not based on anything objective, it's just gut feeling but in cricket the only thing that matters is how many runs you get and how quick, not who is fashionable.
 
Abraxas said:
Malan averages 60 so far in ODIs, S/R of 90 odd. Averages 40 in 20/20 with a S/R of 137. Surprised to see discontent, I'd love to know what performances are acceptable. Think we're finding things to question to be honest. I do think he's more suited to opening than 3 though.

Also Robinson is a class bowler. Don't think the Overtons are in his league. I think he should be in England's best test side when fit. Keeps it steady. Him Archer and someone else would be the backbone of a an attack to take England forward after Jimmy and Broad if these guys get off the treatment bench.
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I think Malan is great as a Joe Root back up in the ODI format. Root is far ahead of him there. I'd have Stokes in the T20 though at number 3 despite the worsening numbers, Stokes has done it in the IPL and offers a lot more all round whilst playing that anchor role if needed. England's top order is extremely right hand heavy so you do need a left hander in there given Buttler, Bairstow and Roy have the positions locked. In the T20 side, Malan I don't think fits the team. His stats for England outweigh his domestic stats for what it is worth and that suggests to me he was always punching.

Robinson is a good bowler, just needs to remain and maintain that fitness during the entire test match.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
I think Malan is great as a Joe Root back up in the ODI format. Root is far ahead of him there. I'd have Stokes in the T20 though at number 3 despite the worsening numbers, Stokes has done it in the IPL and offers a lot more all round whilst playing that anchor role if needed. England's top order is extremely right hand heavy so you do need a left hander in there given Buttler, Bairstow and Roy have the positions locked. In the T20 side, Malan I don't think fits the team. His stats for England outweigh his domestic stats for what it is worth and that suggests to me he was always punching.

Robinson is a good bowler, just needs to remain and maintain that fitness during the entire test match.
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You say he's "punching" but his record in domestic cricket is better than Bairstow so again there's an inconsistency because if that standard is applied across the board I still think Malan comes out well. It's probably better than some of the others but I can't be bothered checking in truth. I'd say he's just learnt his 20/20 game given he was picked late, but yeah, maybe he can't maintain his current numbers but who's to say.

The top and bottom of it is obviously people have this gut feeling that everyone else is a better candidate. But it seems more like fashion to me because the evidence says something else and I think it's a bit harsh on the guy. I also think having a lefty is useful.

Anyway, it's not a bad thing to have so many candidates for these formats. A big contrast to the test side.
 
Abraxas said:
Malan averages 60 so far in ODIs, S/R of 90 odd. Averages 40 in 20/20 with a S/R of 137. Surprised to see discontent, I'd love to know what performances are acceptable. Think we're finding things to question to be honest. I do think he's more suited to opening than 3 though.
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Doesn't average 60 and half his games are against minnows.

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Malan is 34, probably gets the world cup this winter then phased out. Not a big deal, our batting line up is just ridiculous.
 
Abraxas said:
You say he's "punching" but his record in domestic cricket is better than Bairstow so again there's an inconsistency because if that standard is applied across the board I still think Malan comes out well. It's probably better than some of the others but I can't be bothered checking in truth. I'd say he's just learnt his 20/20 game given he was picked late, but yeah, maybe he can't maintain his current numbers but who's to say.

The top and bottom of it is obviously people have this gut feeling that everyone else is a better candidate. But it seems more like fashion to me because the evidence says something else and I think it's a bit harsh on the guy. I also think having a lefty is useful.

Anyway, it's not a bad thing to have so many candidates for these formats. A big contrast to the test side.
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I think you're simply just looking at his average and strike rate and not much else. I mean in that example with the domestic record vs. Bairstow, you have to factor in the leagues that they played in. Malan has been a journeyman with some limited success here and there, while Bairstow has had great success in the IPL. Malan couldn't get into his IPL side even when he was the top T20 Batsman in the world.

A lot of it is down to gut and preference but Malan's stats overrate is my view.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
I think you're simply just looking at his average and strike rate and not much else. I mean in that example with the domestic record vs. Bairstow, you have to factor in the leagues that they played in. Malan has been a journeyman with some limited success here and there, while Bairstow has had great success in the IPL. Malan couldn't get into his IPL side even when he was the top T20 Batsman in the world.

A lot of it is down to gut and preference but Malan's stats overrate is my view.
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Sure, but I wasn't intending a forensic analysis of his domestic stats as it wouldn't ever be my argument that he maintains a place due to domestic stats. It is however your argument that the discrepancy is a potential reason to mark him down, but I think if you're going to rely on that then consistency has to be applied to his competition and that would involve a comparison. Personally I don't think there's value in it when all these guys are seasoned 20/20 internationals.

I definitely do mostly rely on the stats. In 20/20 in particular I don't see much room for anything else. There is the element of when and where you got your runs but I don't see any particular reason to mark him up or down on that. At the end of the day it's not football is it, it's pretty cut or dry, how many runs did you score and how quickly. Stats in cricket tell 90% of the story of how you've performed as long as the sample size is there. I don't see any Bruno Fernandes types who's performance and stats are hard to reconcile, there is no such thing as a bad performance when you got the runs!

I was a bit hasty with his ODI stats mind, I agree there's little reason for him to be first choice there just because of 9 matches.
 
Abraxas said:
Sure, but I wasn't intending a forensic analysis of his domestic stats as it wouldn't ever be my argument that he maintains a place due to domestic stats. It is however your argument that the discrepancy is a potential reason to mark him down, but I think if you're going to rely on that then consistency has to be applied to his competition and that would involve a comparison. Personally I don't think there's value in it when all these guys are seasoned 20/20 internationals.

I definitely do mostly rely on the stats. In 20/20 in particular I don't see much room for anything else. There is the element of when and where you got your runs but I don't see any particular reason to mark him up or down on that. At the end of the day it's not football is it, it's pretty cut or dry, how many runs did you score and how quickly. Stats in cricket tell 90% of the story of how you've performed as long as the sample size is there. I don't see any Bruno Fernandes types who's performance and stats are hard to reconcile, there is no such thing as a bad performance when you got the runs!

I was a bit hasty with his ODI stats mind, I agree there's little reason for him to be first choice there just because of 9 matches.
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Relying on stats tells us that Adam Voges is one of the greatest batters of all time. Stats definitely can cloud matters when used without the relevant context.

With the stats you cite, that strike rate is low for an elite T20 side which this England is. Even anchors need to be going at 150 S/R minimum because that’s how high the standard has gotten. He’s a good, well very good player who’s just not of the same standard of his competition because said competition is so good. For just about any other country on earth he’d probably be a cert for the side.

I just don’t think there’s any shame at all in being not quite good enough for this England white ball side. That still puts you at a very, very high level.
 
phelans shorts said:
Relying on stats tells us that Adam Voges is one of the greatest batters of all time. Stats definitely can cloud matters when used without the relevant context.

With the stats you cite, that strike rate is low for an elite T20 side which this England is. Even anchors need to be going at 150 S/R minimum because that’s how high the standard has gotten. He’s a good, well very good player who’s just not of the same standard of his competition because said competition is so good. For just about any other country on earth he’d probably be a cert for the side.

I just don’t think there’s any shame at all in being not quite good enough for this England white ball side. That still puts you at a very, very high level.
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Who you thinking? What's your Malan-less batting order?
 
DOTA said:
He's passed 50 on 4 occasions in 43 matches, from if the stats I'm looking at are correct. I'm sure the centuries were fun to watch but it's not a good record.
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A few 40s as well which again considering he doesn't always come out in the top order isn't too bad. He was player of the season for one year, probably the year he took it all seriously and is still considered an in-demand player and the IPL is an unforgiving environment.
 
phelans shorts said:
Relying on stats tells us that Adam Voges is one of the greatest batters of all time. Stats definitely can cloud matters when used without the relevant context.

With the stats you cite, that strike rate is low for an elite T20 side which this England is. Even anchors need to be going at 150 S/R minimum because that’s how high the standard has gotten. He’s a good, well very good player who’s just not of the same standard of his competition because said competition is so good. For just about any other country on earth he’d probably be a cert for the side.

I just don’t think there’s any shame at all in being not quite good enough for this England white ball side. That still puts you at a very, very high level.
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I take your point regarding stats and their usage, but I think you have to be clear about them first before you reason around them. His strike rate isn't low. None of them are going at 150. His strike rate is only a few ticks lower than Buttler! This is what I mean when I say people have got some ideas in their head that aren't justified on the evidence. He has one of the higher S/Rs in the side. I'm not going to argue for one moment that he has a change of pace like Jos Buttler as that would be ludicrous, but I think his rate holds well against his competition.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
A few 40s as well which again considering he doesn't always come out in the top order isn't too bad. He was player of the season for one year, probably the year he took it all seriously and is still considered an in-demand player and the IPL is an unforgiving environment.
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That argument would work better if his strike rate was good.
 
phelans shorts said:
One of those moves that works out for everyone. India get to look at him in English conditions (also if they urgently need someone when over here I’m guessing they’ll pick up the phone), and Lancashire get to see what he’s all about (plus like you mention, I’m sure it’ll move the needle on Lancs TV).

I’m not sure how many games are actually at Old Trafford while he’s here though, I think most are Southport or Sedbergh during that spell.
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Yeah but still, most pitches turn in mid-late-season don't they.

Shame we didn't get Siraj though, he'd be my dream overseas signing given Lancs' requirements.
 
Abraxas said:
I take your point regarding stats and their usage, but I think you have to be clear about them first before you reason around them. His strike rate isn't low. None of them are going at 150. His strike rate is only a few ticks lower than Buttler! This is what I mean when I say people have got some ideas in their head that aren't justified on the evidence. He has one of the higher S/Rs in the side. I'm not going to argue for one moment that he has a change of pace like Jos Buttler as that would be ludicrous, but I think his rate holds well against his competition.
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to be fair slow starting is a very valid complaint that has been thrown at Jos, the change of pace he possesses is what separates him. Malan far too often gets a run a ball 16 and that’s your lot, there’s only so many slow starters you can accommodate.

In the interest of fairness once Malan has faced 20 balls his change of pace is good, but we do also need to consider who that has come against.
DOTA said:
Who you thinking? What's your Malan-less batting order?
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Root to me feels like the obvious choice, albeit his S/R in T20 internationals isn’t as good as Malans it’s come against the creme de La creme with a similar domestic record.

I think England should be a bit more fluid in general with T20’s though. Play the situation more and not a specified running order.
 
DOTA said:
Whereas 137 in internationals isn't good from Malan?

EDIT - Were you arguing about Malan or nah? I'm losing track.
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:lol: fair enough, I am nah on Malan because he is an accumulator who strikes hard when he has settled in. That ends up boosting his SR. @phelans shorts just made the valid point about him generally only going at a run a ball for the first 15 or so balls which is a waste in the Powerplay.

I do think he is an asset to the ODI squad though and that's his best format but his age is against him.
 
Never understand why they're so reticent to review half decent shouts. Who cares if you lose reviews, you only end up back in the old days where you rely on the umpire. Plus NZ are 4 down, how many reviews will you need versus the tail? First bit of poor judgement from Stokes.

Leach doesn't look very threatening to be honest.
 
phelans shorts said:
No Vilas tonight for Lancashire, which is a shame as he’s in cracking form. Debut for young George Bell though
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Watching the test but looks like he steadied the ship when things were bad and then struggled to up the rate. Not bad for a first effort. Hopefully does well with the gloves.

EDIT - Just switched over and not sure we'll see him keep given how heavy that rain is.
 
Thought England got it wrong second half of the day. Overbowled the spinners, no Stokes and poor reviews.

Still setup for a good day tomorrow and we are probably ahead.
 
DOTA said:
Watching the test but looks like he steadied the ship when things were bad and then struggled to up the rate. Not bad for a first effort. Hopefully does well with the gloves.

EDIT - Just switched over and not sure we'll see him keep given how heavy that rain is.
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Yeah, looks like everyone has struggled so I’ll take 31 off 26 on debut. Especially as you mention the utter collapse he halted.

Rained off isn’t ideal but always likely to happen in Lancashire, just amazed it’d be our first this tournament!
 
Utd heap said:
Thought England got it wrong second half of the day. Overbowled the spinners, no Stokes and poor reviews.

Still setup for a good day tomorrow and we are probably ahead.
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Completely agree. Thought it was criminal the way he let Blundell completely settle against spin which is his strength. A learning experience I think.
 
Utd heap said:
Thought England got it wrong second half of the day. Overbowled the spinners, no Stokes and poor reviews.

Still setup for a good day tomorrow and we are probably ahead.
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Agreed, even if he couldn't have bowled himself - just rotate the seamers one end and Leach the other. There was no need for Root.
 
phelans shorts said:
No Vilas tonight for Lancashire, which is a shame as he’s in cracking form. Debut for young George Bell though

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Rained off, will take a point with that score... Good innings on debut by Bell. Salt's back for tomorrow's game thankfully - Bohannon's just not a T20 player.
 
Djemba-Djemba said:
Feels like England have spent 90% of their time bowling in this series to this partnership across 3 tests.
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Pretty much, they have the highest partnership in terms of number of balls for a touring side since Gibbs and Smith back in the day!
 
Robindinho said:
Rained off, will take a point with that score... Good innings on debut by Bell. Salt's back for tomorrow's game thankfully - Bohannon's just not a T20 player.
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Yeah, with everyone missing I’m not going to complain at one win, one loss and one no result and staying at the top of the table.

Wood being in the side gives hope that both Salt and Livingstone will play tomorrow, Jos is obviously much less likely but a man can dream.
 
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