English cricket thread

Silverwood's first job was to address the ridiculous matey jobs for boys selection policy.

Absolutely botched it with the Bairstow recall.
 
paulscholes18 said:
I do agree but who would you give it to? Is it too soon for Burns? I would let Ben Stokes be Ben Stokes, not sure how safe Buttler’s spot is which would then leave Broad
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I know it's frowned upon to give a bowler the captaincy but the most important thing for England right now is to have Joe Root at his absolute best as a batsman.
 
Not a great start for the Silverwood regime is it. And as an unfancied candidate, he needed one.
 
paulscholes18 said:
I do agree but who would you give it to? Is it too soon for Burns? I would let Ben Stokes be Ben Stokes, not sure how safe Buttler’s spot is which would then leave Broad
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Wouldn't mind Broad as a short-term option actually. He's not exactly a blood-and-thunder fast bowler like a Rabada or Johnson, so you'd imagine he'd be able to keep a cool head in the field.
 
Grim. England will need to bowl South Africa out for 150 max here to even stand a chance and De Kock hasn't even batted yet. Morning session tomorrow will make or break the outcome of this, so here's hoping we won't see any of those silly Jofra beamers again.

On another note, Bairstow has no business being in South Africa whatsoever. The bread has long gone stale.
 
What's sad is that this is not even that good of a SA team. They were absolutely mauled by an admittedly very good Indian team, but they are very average at best. England flatter to deceive so often it has become the norm. Bottom line is in the test arena (for the most part) we are just not very good.
 
We're a very very bad test side, we're approaching the nadir of the 90s level bad now.

This idea that we've got potential to be a good side and we just need to click or mature is nonsense. Michael Vaughan is often guilty of this, I've lost count of the number of times he's started an article along the lines of England are a very talented side but....

We're not talented. We're shite, we've got one batsman who averages over 40 and he's been on the steady decline the last 2 years. The bowlers are fine in English conditions but have struggled over and over away from home. And Root as captain is just so obviously not working, he's still skipper because we have nobody else.

They need to do a complete overhaul of the test setup the way they did it with the ODI setup in 2015.

It might feel daft to say but Silverwood should already be under immense pressure. He's come in and not even tried to change anything, looks the same old jobs for the boys shite.
 
charlton66 said:
What's sad is that this is not even that good of a SA team. They were absolutely mauled by an admittedly very good Indian team, but they are very average at best. England flatter to deceive so often it has become the norm. Bottom line is in the test arena (for the most part) we are just not very good.
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They lost a series at home to Sri Lanka last year.
 
Reading through the BBC comments on that session and I'm absolutely baffled by both Fabrace and Agnew's commentary on that overturned LBW shout:

Agnew:

Put that down on one of those increasing logs for scratching heads at technology

Fabrace:

I can't believe that isn't out. I'm not sure that the technology is right there.

It was an absolute shocker of a decision, looked completely wrong in real time, and looked to be going exactly where ball tracking showed it would be going. Baffled that anyone can really think otherwise.
 
Djemba-Djemba said:
We're a very very bad test side, we're approaching the nadir of the 90s level bad now.

This idea that we've got potential to be a good side and we just need to click or mature is nonsense. Michael Vaughan is often guilty of this, I've lost count of the number of times he's started an article along the lines of England are a very talented side but....

We're not talented. We're shite, we've got one batsman who averages over 40 and he's been on the steady decline the last 2 years. The bowlers are fine in English conditions but have struggled over and over away from home. And Root as captain is just so obviously not working, he's still skipper because we have nobody else.

They need to do a complete overhaul of the test setup the way they did it with the ODI setup in 2015.

It might feel daft to say but Silverwood should already be under immense pressure. He's come in and not even tried to change anything, looks the same old jobs for the boys shite.
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Never a truer word spoken, before it was players getting into the ODI side on test form which is why the ODI side was poor now it’s gone full circle and it’s ODI players getting in the test team which is why the test team is inconsistent
 
paulscholes18 said:
Never a truer word spoken, before it was players getting into the ODI side on test form which is why the ODI side was poor now it’s gone full circle and it’s ODI players getting in the test team which is why the test team is inconsistent
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I dunno, I think that's a symptom of the problem.

We just don't have enough good test players. Even the lads coming through with a load of runs in the CC are struggling and these ODI call ups are sticking plasters and gambles; the domestic schedule is not helping bowlers or batsmen used to playing the sort of cricket you need to play to win test matches: bowlers pick up wickets too easily and lose patience and discipline, batsmen are encouraged to throw their bat because they know that one with their name on is coming.

Still don't help ourselves. I do not understand why the best keeper in the country is sitting at home when he averages 40 in his limited test appearances so far in favour of a guy who has 1 test century and averages 33 over 37 tests or a guy who hasn't been able to hold a bat in test cricket for two years and isn't a very good keeper (who ludicrously was voted in England's team of the decade over Prior by the cricket watching public I saw today). I don't understand how it took so long to get the most prolific opener in the country in the side, nor why we've repeatedly forced Root up to three despite it being a failure every time.

But these aren't solutions I don't think. Burns still has a bit to prove, but even if we say he's safe that's, for my money, him, Root (who is in a shocking rut), and Stokes who have what it takes to win test matches abroad for England in 2019. We're eight players (maybe 7.5 because I like Denly's fight) including an entire bowling attack away from having a side that I'd expect to win test matches regularly away from home.
 
NinjaFletch said:
I dunno, I think that's a symptom of the problem.

We just don't have enough good test players. Even the lads coming through with a load of runs in the CC are struggling and these ODI call ups are sticking plasters and gambles; the domestic schedule is not helping bowlers or batsmen used to playing the sort of cricket you need to play to win test matches: bowlers pick up wickets too easily and lose patience and discipline, batsmen are encouraged to throw their bat because they know that one with their name on is coming.

Still don't help ourselves. I do not understand why the best keeper in the country is sitting at home when he averages 40 in his limited test appearances so far in favour of a guy who has 1 test century and averages 33 over 37 tests or a guy who hasn't been able to hold a bat in test cricket for two years and isn't a very good keeper (who ludicrously was voted in England's team of the decade over Prior by the cricket watching public I saw today). I don't understand how it took so long to get the most prolific opener in the country in the side, nor why we've repeatedly forced Root up to three despite it being a failure every time.

But these aren't solutions I don't think. Burns still has a bit to prove, but even if we say he's safe that's, for my money, him, Root (who is in a shocking rut), and Stokes who have what it takes to win test matches abroad for England in 2019. We're eight players (maybe 7.5 because I like Denly's fight) including an entire bowling attack away from having a side that I'd expect to win test matches regularly away from home.
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Letting Pope have a long run at 6, giving Foakes the gloves, trusting Leach and telling Archer it's ok to bowl a bit slower and focus on a good line and length would make a sizeable difference to the team. Obviously 2 of these 4 things were out of England's control for this test.
 
ArmchairCritic said:
Letting Pope have a long run at 6, giving Foakes the gloves, trusting Leach and telling Archer it's ok to bowl a bit slower and focus on a good line and length would make a sizeable difference to the team. Obviously 2 of these 4 things were out of England's control for this test.
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Not sure that's the issue with Archer. His pace has been down throughout the winter and he's looked less effective because of it. He's a difference maker at 90mph+ but I think England (probably more so than him) have got swept away with hostility and forget that his job is primarily to take wickets – he's a line bowler with a wicked bouncer not a bouncer bowler who pitches it up as a surprise ball.

But yes, those four would all be in my England side (and I'd give Sibley a very long run too), I'm not advocating dropping 8 players, but they still have to prove it at test level and when there's so many players in that boat it's not surprising we're so shit – even before you factor in the often baffling captaincy.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Not sure that's the issue with Archer. His pace has been down throughout the winter and he's looked less effective because of it. He's a difference maker at 90mph+ but I think England (probably more so than him) have got swept away with hostility and forget that his job is primarily to take wickets – he's a line bowler with a wicked bouncer not a bouncer bowler who pitches it up as a surprise ball.

But yes, those four would all be in my England side (and I'd give Sibley a very long run too), I'm not advocating dropping 8 players, but they still have to prove it at test level and when there's so many players in that boat it's not surprising we're so shit – even before you factor in the often baffling captaincy.
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To be fair to Archer the ease with which he handled the World Cup and Ashes was exceptional and there was bound to be a regression of sorts. He'll be all the better for it going forward.
 
ArmchairCritic said:
To be fair to Archer the ease with which he handled the World Cup and Ashes was exceptional and there was bound to be a regression of sorts. He'll be all the better for it going forward.
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Yes, I'm not criticising him. I don't think he's getting much clarity off of Root out of what they want him to do and it's churlish to suggest that someone with 7 tests under his belt should have it all figured out already. There's no reason to suggest that he couldn't be a difference maker for England away from home, and there's plenty of excuses for why he's been subpar so far (from illness to never having bowled with the Kookabura ball), but we've talked about potential with players for years now and they haven't kicked on (mostly with the bat tbh). I just think it's time we start putting that away for a bit and start basing our expectations on achievements.
 
Good final session from England to finish on 121/1 hope they stick with Sibley and give him all series
 
Not bad from England. Still in the game, new ball is key, if Root and YJB can get through to tea then it will be game on.
 
Djemba-Djemba said:
We're a very very bad test side, we're approaching the nadir of the 90s level bad now.

This idea that we've got potential to be a good side and we just need to click or mature is nonsense. Michael Vaughan is often guilty of this, I've lost count of the number of times he's started an article along the lines of England are a very talented side but....

We're not talented. We're shite, we've got one batsman who averages over 40 and he's been on the steady decline the last 2 years. The bowlers are fine in English conditions but have struggled over and over away from home. And Root as captain is just so obviously not working, he's still skipper because we have nobody else.

They need to do a complete overhaul of the test setup the way they did it with the ODI setup in 2015.

It might feel daft to say but Silverwood should already be under immense pressure. He's come in and not even tried to change anything, looks the same old jobs for the boys shite.
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Depends on our relative objective?

Just because England isn't no1 test team doesn't mean its all gloom. The test format in general isn't what it used to be in 90s, when most teams would have several 40+ average batsman. Tests rarely enter 5th day, and Im sure the average team totals are less now than before.

At the highest level, test and t20 are virtually different sports, and there simply isn't the money or popularity in UK to excel in both. I know people have proposed changes to the county game in UK, but would those decrease the popularity even further?

As it stands, England are competitive in tests, in the top half of nations, and I think the introduction of Burns, Sibley and Pope are a good move. Its not quite as bleak as you make out?
 
Great win for the Proteas but Root's decision to bowl first was mental. Nortjie looks a real find, real pace. Hopefully the batting can hold up in Cape Town.
 
gajender said:
Just a question why English seem to attach so much value to role of coach in cricket.
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Good question! I guess that when Fletcher was in charge in the early 00s, we saw the value of a top-class coach, so we're kind of hoping to replicate that.
 
JohnnyKills said:
Good question! I guess that when Fletcher was in charge in the early 00s, we saw the value of a top-class coach, so we're kind of hoping to replicate that.
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England's first coach wasn't until 1986. Fletcher, Flower and Bayliss are the most successful and they were all backed up by top captains. Important to note what underpinned the Fletcher and Flower reigns (basically complete disaster and honest reflection):

In 1999:
https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...and-4th-test-new-zealand-tour-of-england-1999

Good piece on that:
https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/15560179/simon-barnes-nasser-hussain-was-booed-oval

In 2009:
https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...-1st-test-england-tour-of-west-indies-2008-09

England have been here before and know what they have to do, whether they do it remains to be seen. There is quite a lot they can change without really changing too much.
 
Rory Burns got injured playing football so might miss the 2nd test. Silly from the coaches to allow them to play so soon to a test
 
paulscholes18 said:
Rory Burns got injured playing football so might miss the 2nd test. Silly from the coaches to allow them to play so soon to a test
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I remember in 2006 just before the Champions Trophy our most inform player then, Yuvraj SIngh got injured playing Football and was ruled out for some bit. I never understand why you want to play football as a way of practice.
 
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