England Squad Discussion (The Carsley Era)

I really don’t understand the furore over the defeat. Carsley tried something adventurous. Exactly the sort of thing fans have been baying for. It didn’t work out, but isn’t that what friendlies are for? I know we call this shit the Nations League now, but they are just friendlies. They have zero meaning. If you aren’t going to experiment at home against Greece, when are you going to experiment?

I can understand a bit of a tizzy if it was a qualifier, but it’s not even that. It’s a friendly. Completely unremarkable.
 
He's both overrated and underrated. At a base level he's a good keeper that has had 3-4 very good seasons for Everton and England. As said though, he's having a poor season all round.
He's a decent, mid-table level goal keeper. That's all. Its a shame things turned out the way they did with Ramsdale, while he's no Ederson this would have been the time he could have staked his England claim but ultimately he was also just decent hence sold by us and probably his England chances as well. I consider Pope to be the same level as Pickford.

England don't have really great goal keeper options i.e in comparison to the immensely talented midfield.
 
I really don’t understand the furore over the defeat. Carsley tried something adventurous. Exactly the sort of thing fans have been baying for. It didn’t work out, but isn’t that what friendlies are for? I know we call this shit the Nations League now, but they are just friendlies. They have zero meaning. If you aren’t going to experiment at home against Greece, when are you going to experiment?

I can understand a bit of a tizzy if it was a qualifier, but it’s not even that. It’s a friendly. Completely unremarkable.
Theres just no support for him. Any mistake or misstep will be magnified. If he set up conservatively, dropped a couple of attacking players and got some 1-0 or 2-1 type wins then he'd be wasting a golden generation and its more boring Southgate football. He needs to comfortably win every match, playing adventurous football, preferably with the white attacking players starting (Palmer / Foden) to avoid criticism and dismissal by a lot of the british media. Even then he'd still be Irish.
 
I really don’t understand the furore over the defeat. Carsley tried something adventurous. Exactly the sort of thing fans have been baying for. It didn’t work out, but isn’t that what friendlies are for? I know we call this shit the Nations League now, but they are just friendlies. They have zero meaning. If you aren’t going to experiment at home against Greece, when are you going to experiment?

I can understand a bit of a tizzy if it was a qualifier, but it’s not even that. It’s a friendly. Completely unremarkable.
But it obviously wouldn't work. It was just shoving every big name in and hoping for the best, this isn't a computer game.
 
It’s really interesting that he tried that when he realistically had a chance of getting such a big job. It reminds me of Chris Weidman’s spinning back fist in the UFC.

Madness at a mad time, but you have got to respect the courage.
 
Can we speak about the underperforming man city players who for not the first time tonight where underwhelming, especially the left back and stones in defence.

Also we looked better with gomes as the deep lying midfielder instead of rice.
 
He's a decent, mid-table level goal keeper. That's all. Its a shame things turned out the way they did with Ramsdale, while he's no Ederson this would have been the time he could have staked his England claim but ultimately he was also just decent hence sold by us and probably his England chances as well. I consider Pope to be the same level as Pickford.

England don't have really great goal keeper options i.e in comparison to the immensely talented midfield.
He's been one of the best keepers at international level in the past 4 major tournaments. He's definitely around EL level.
 
He's been one of the best keepers at international level in the past 4 major tournaments. He's definitely around EL level.
Not really but you'd say that as an Everton fan. These few highlight reel saves even Ramsdale had for Arsenal. He's decent at best, nothing more hence why no top team has ever given him a look in and why he consistently plays for a team who flirts with relegation every season. A dozen a dime players like him everywhere. He's just lucky there isn't anyone truly elite in England and therefore there is no choice but to pick him.
 
But it obviously wouldn't work. It was just shoving every big name in and hoping for the best, this isn't a computer game.
The game didn’t matter that much though, England will still likely get promoted, not like he’s been knocked out of the World Cup, if ever there was a time to make an experimental mistake it was there. Sven put Beckham in DM against Northern Ireland and lost for example before the 2006 WC, still qualified. England had a terrible Nations League and got relegated, lost 4-0 to Hungary but still made the Euros final.
 
Not really but you'd say that as an Everton fan. These few highlight reel saves even Ramsdale had for Arsenal. He's decent at best, nothing more hence why no top team has ever given him a look in and why he consistently plays for a team who flirts with relegation every season. A dozen a dime players like him everywhere. He's just lucky there isn't anyone truly elite in England and therefore there is no choice but to pick him.
I think there is a bit of pedantism perhaps from both sides regarding what we class as decent. I don't think Pickford is the best keeper in the world but he's been very good over the past 4 seasons and of a level better than most keepers in the league and the international tournaments he's been involved in. He's got more out of his ability than the majority of the dozen a dime players like him everywhere you mention.
 
I really don’t understand the furore over the defeat. Carsley tried something adventurous. Exactly the sort of thing fans have been baying for. It didn’t work out, but isn’t that what friendlies are for? I know we call this shit the Nations League now, but they are just friendlies. They have zero meaning. If you aren’t going to experiment at home against Greece, when are you going to experiment?

I can understand a bit of a tizzy if it was a qualifier, but it’s not even that. It’s a friendly. Completely unremarkable.
Good post.

In the pre match last night they showed the England team after the famous qualifier v Greece where Becks scored the free kick. The England players were bouncing about with flags saying 'we are going to the world cup' ffs.
At least now we sort of expect to qualify with ease. Nations league games for a bit of a run out and experiment with a new line up. No dramas.
 
I think there is a bit of pedantism perhaps from both sides regarding what we class as decent. I don't think Pickford is the best keeper in the world but he's been very good over the past 4 seasons and of a level better than most keepers in the league and the international tournaments he's been involved in. He's got more out of his ability than the majority of the dozen a dime players like him everywhere you mention.
The other English keepers never got a consistent chance this guy got for 4 years. You put Pope or Ramsdale in for 4 years they couldn't have done any worse. The same saves he's made, some of them excellent, and the same howlers he's made so have the others. I am pretty sure Ramsdale would have taken his spot over had Arsenal not bought Raya. You keep saying 4 years, which means nothing since Southgate never gave any of the others a long enough consistent run. As for me all of them are at the same level which is my point.

Saying all this, he's hardly the issue right now in the England team however. For all of England's problems the goal keeping position isn't one of them.
 
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The other English keepers never got a consistent chance this guy got for 4 years. You put Pope or Ramsdale in for 4 years they couldn't have done any worse. The same saves he's made, some of them excellent, and the same howlers he's made so have the others. I am pretty sure Ramsdale would have taken his spot over had Arsenal not bought Raya. You keep saying 4 years, which means nothing since Southgate never gave any of the others a long enough consistent run. As for me all of them are at the same level which is my point.

Saying all this, he's hardly the issue right now in the England team however. For all of England's problems the goal keeping position isn't one of them.
They didn't get a consistent chance because they were either poor for their club at the time (Ramsdale was never as good for Arsenal as was made out and played in relegation sides) or when they had a chance for England they were guff. Sometimes both.
 
I really don’t understand the furore over the defeat. Carsley tried something adventurous. Exactly the sort of thing fans have been baying for. It didn’t work out, but isn’t that what friendlies are for? I know we call this shit the Nations League now, but they are just friendlies. They have zero meaning. If you aren’t going to experiment at home against Greece, when are you going to experiment?

I can understand a bit of a tizzy if it was a qualifier, but it’s not even that. It’s a friendly. Completely unremarkable.

The problem is hes on trial and he needs to look like hes taking the team in a better direction than the guy who got to 2 tournament finals right before he arrived.

He doesnt have a bunch of games to mess around with failing tactics. Plus we're playing weak teams and need to have a bit of success in the competition to get promoted, so that we can have friendlies against the better teams in preperations for tournaments. Theres no point "trying new things" against canon fodder.
 
The game didn’t matter that much though, England will still likely get promoted, not like he’s been knocked out of the World Cup, if ever there was a time to make an experimental mistake it was there. Sven put Beckham in DM against Northern Ireland and lost for example before the 2006 WC, still qualified. England had a terrible Nations League and got relegated, lost 4-0 to Hungary but still made the Euros final.
But we were crap in the Euros.
 
So, do you consider anything that isn’t possession-based football kamikaze?
Depends on how you set up, but if the plan is to field Palmer, Bellingham, Saka and a striker, with only Rice behind them in midfield, chances are you either are going to be wide open, or outright broken
When pressed by opponents, the solutions are either to bypass the midfield by going wide or playing long to the forwards. Another option is building up in like a 4-4-2 diamond, inverting Saka and Palmer. The fullback on the ball side would provide width, with Watkins offering depth through long runs. It’s straightforward. Don’t force playing out from the back if it minimizes your best midfielders, who are undoubtedly Rice and Bellingham.
Going wide when pressed is a good way to facilitate the pressing team actually. Going long requires your forwards to win the long balls/loose balls. It's an option, but again one that likely leaves you wide open for it to work. You are still ultimately either playing with 1 actual midfielder in Rice, or asking Bellingham to play against himself(because players aren't robots, they don't have templates saved on their hardware they can just switch to if they're asked to change role)
Not comparing these guys; but could you imagine Makalele and Viera adept building play when pressed?
Those guys had Zidane
 
I sure didn't, never registered with me. It's still bizarre, six games and no wins?
Germany won 1 game, an absolute demolition of Italy's C team. It was two teams who patently didn't want to play those games and two teams who hadn't qualified for Qatar so actually had to try for the home fans...

also, feck you jorginho :lol:
 
Depends on how you set up, but if the plan is to field Palmer, Bellingham, Saka and a striker, with only Rice behind them in midfield, chances are you either are going to be wide open, or outright broken

Going wide when pressed is a good way to facilitate the pressing team actually. Going long requires your forwards to win the long balls/loose balls. It's an option, but again one that likely leaves you wide open for it to work. You are still ultimately either playing with 1 actual midfielder in Rice, or asking Bellingham to play against himself(because players aren't robots, they don't have templates saved on their hardware they can just switch to if they're asked to change role)

Those guys had Zidane

If the defensive transition and structure are well-organized, it should reduce the risks. Rice is an elite ball-winner, and Bellingham has sufficient defensive work rate.

Many teams build towards wide areas by drawing the opposition across, to create central space or to even switch play. My idea is that with Foden/Palmer and Grealish/Saka inverting, we’d always have a midfield overload. As I mentioned, Bellingham’s profile as a box-to-box midfielder means he won’t leave Rice exposed. Additionally, the wide players moving centrally would strengthen the counterpress. I just think England can be more direct.

Bringing up Zidane is irrelevant, as they weren’t asked to play this style.
 
If the defensive transition and structure are well-organized, it should reduce the risks. Rice is an elite ball-winner, and Bellingham has sufficient defensive work rate.
Yeah, so not with those guys. Bellingham - and I really can't stress it enough - has poor defensive aptitude. This means his sense of positioning, awareness and decision making are poor. Don't confuse him being an active defender with him a good defender. He's not. Not positionally. And Rice is also not exceptional in that regard - very good, yes, but you need exceptional next to a guy who is poor. And that's without getting into how you are going to balance a good defensive transition and structure with a functional attack, with those pieces
Many teams build towards wide areas by drawing the opposition across, to create central space or to even switch play. My idea is that with Foden/Palmer and Grealish/Saka inverting, we’d always have a midfield overload. As I mentioned, Bellingham’s profile as a box-to-box midfielder means he won’t leave Rice exposed. Additionally, the wide players moving centrally would strengthen the counterpress. I just think England can be more direct.
Bellingham will leave Rice exposed, or you got yourself a mediocre robot CM. One that is significantly, clearly worse than Mainoo, for example. Also, who is hitting those switches of play? Under pressure? And if the other team doesn't press...then what? You push Bellingham up - thus leaving Rice exposed - or keep him close to Rice, and make his presence on the pitch almost meaningless? I repeat: Bellingham is not a central midfielder, he will never again be one, and asking him to play like one makes as much sense as asking Saka to play left back. Or Foden to play left winger. You either let Bellingham play like the attacking midfielder he is, and that means you accept the high likelyhood of getting exposed defensively, or there is little point to having Bellingham in there at all. England likely will have better options
Bringing up Zidane is irrelevant, as they weren’t asked to play this style.
First: Makelele and Vieira were great at receiving the ball deep and not lose it - way better than Rice or Bellingham. Second: they had Zidane. They weren't asked to do more than "not lose the ball and pass it to Zidane", because they had Zidane. England lack precisely that type of player and it's the main reason that's putting a hard cap on how good this team can be(which is not as good as people assume). England more than anything needs to figure out how to quickly move the ball from defence to the forwards, without the latter having to drop all the way back. Bellingham in a deeper role is not the answer to that
 
Yeah, so not with those guys. Bellingham - and I really can't stress it enough - has poor defensive aptitude. This means his sense of positioning, awareness and decision making are poor. Don't confuse him being an active defender with him a good defender. He's not. Not positionally. And Rice is also not exceptional in that regard - very good, yes, but you need exceptional next to a guy who is poor. And that's without getting into how you are going to balance a good defensive transition and structure with a functional attack, with those pieces

Bellingham will leave Rice exposed, or you got yourself a mediocre robot CM. One that is significantly, clearly worse than Mainoo, for example. Also, who is hitting those switches of play? Under pressure? And if the other team doesn't press...then what? You push Bellingham up - thus leaving Rice exposed - or keep him close to Rice, and make his presence on the pitch almost meaningless? I repeat: Bellingham is not a central midfielder, he will never again be one, and asking him to play like one makes as much sense as asking Saka to play left back. Or Foden to play left winger. You either let Bellingham play like the attacking midfielder he is, and that means you accept the high likelyhood of getting exposed defensively, or there is little point to having Bellingham in there at all. England likely will have better options

First: Makelele and Vieira were great at receiving the ball deep and not lose it - way better than Rice or Bellingham. Second: they had Zidane. They weren't asked to do more than "not lose the ball and pass it to Zidane", because they had Zidane. England lack precisely that type of player and it's the main reason that's putting a hard cap on how good this team can be(which is not as good as people assume). England more than anything needs to figure out how to quickly move the ball from defence to the forwards, without the latter having to drop all the way back. Bellingham in a deeper role is not the answer to that

Defensive transitions involve the entire team, two players. Bellingham has been contributing at elite levels, both offensively and defensively, for nearly four seasons. Keep in mind, he only recently turned 21, so his positioning, decision-making, and awareness will continue to improve. As an Arsenal fan, I don’t even rate Rice that highly, but there's no doubt he excels in defensive positioning, timing, awareness, and instinct. That’s clear to anyone with football understanding.

Bellingham and Rice would work well together alongside the players I mentioned in that system. I don’t see how Bellingham would leave Rice exposed, in what sense? I’m not suggesting Xabi Alonso-level switches of play, but rather efficient distribution to the other flank. Who would press in that scenario? I’d expect England to beat the press. Alternatively, a wide players operates in the half-space to create an overload. I never suggested Bellingham advancing constantly, but you're right, it's a key part of his game. The coach should instill positional discipline when necessary. That said, it depends on the opposition and game state. His best attributes lean more towards cm than cam. Additionally, Ancelotti has used him in a deeper role this season.

True and perhaps those 2 are the wrong example. I just dont think they'd fair well against high-pressing defensive setups like we see in modern football. I doubt they’d consistently manage to progress play into the opposition’s half. To do that, you need technically gifted midfielders, which England currently lacks. That’s why they should be more tactically flexible. You'll only go so far with that idea given the profiles in midfield. Right now across Europe, I think only Holland and Spain have the midfielders to play like this

Honestly, I think a lot of people, including some professional coaches, tend to overthink the game. It’s really quite simple.
 
After so many years with Southgate's dull football, Carsley did the right thing with the experiment. High risks high returns. England need to transition to attacking football. Let give Carsley time to experiment and hopefully he can find something that works. He won U21 European Championship with attacking football. Finger crossed
 
Defensive transitions involve the entire team, two players. Bellingham has been contributing at elite levels, both offensively and defensively, for nearly four seasons. Keep in mind, he only recently turned 21, so his positioning, decision-making, and awareness will continue to improve.
They are no longer important parts of his game, so chances are they won't. And no, he never contributed at elite levels defensively. BvB were a sieve during his time there, and for Madrid he's an attacking midfielder, with 2 or 3 midfielders behind him to cover. His positioning was directly at fault for both of Spain's goals in the Euros final(Rice, too, and far more dramatically, for the second goal)
As an Arsenal fan, I don’t even rate Rice that highly, but there's no doubt he excels in defensive positioning, timing, awareness, and instinct. That’s clear to anyone with football understanding.
He has elite mobility, timing and anticipation. Awareness, positioning and instincts are great, but he's also not often asked to cover too big an area or anticipate and make up for teammates mistakes. Arsenal defend well enough as a team that he doesn't really need to, and can actually even get away with the occasional mistake from Rice
Bellingham and Rice would work well together alongside the players I mentioned in that system. I don’t see how Bellingham would leave Rice exposed, in what sense?
because if he's not pushing forward, why is he even on the pitch. And if he is pushing forward, he's vacating the midfield
His best attributes lean more towards cm than cam. Additionally, Ancelotti has used him in a deeper role this season.
They don't, which is why he plays as a pure attacking player for Madrid. He's playing as part of either a front 4 or 3, depending whether Rodrygo plays or not. He's getting more involved in deeper areas on the ball, sure, taking on a role closer to what he was asked to do for England at the Euros for example. Which is still very much not the role of a CM. Which he is not. Madrid always have at least 2 actual midfielders behind him
Honestly, I think a lot of people, including some professional coaches, tend to overthink the game. It’s really quite simple.
I don't disagree, but you're talking about asking a player to actively play against every instinct he's developed and developing playing every 3 days for his club, and calling it simple. That is the opposite of simple. Simple, is letting your players play to their strenghts, next to teammates they have good synergy with

You're also proposing to do what the england manager just did, only with Bellingham and Palmer swapping positions/roles and adding Kane up top.
 
Bellingham could have been a world class 6. No question. He has all the tools to play there. He’s never going to be one though as he never plays there and doesn’t spend a day of his life being coached as one.

The days of players jumping around and playing a multitude of positions is long gone.

You can’t be a swashbuckling Number 10, scoring goals in the Champions League, in a side that’s set up to allow you to do that, then spend a couple of days on a training pitch amongst players that haven’t seen each other for 6 weeks, and become a completely different player.

Pogba made a good stab of it. But he had Deschamps spend every training camp for a few years coaching him and a solid team n the same shape. He also had Jose trying to remould him unsuccessfully for half his time at United.

For what it’s worth, I thought it was quite fun to see a bunch of tens on the pitch. At times it looked like it might work, and seeing a few of our talented players just play football was fun. Not a long term plan but there is something in there. If the rest of the team was set up expertly, and we had a 9 on the pitch, I think you can get Palmer, Bellingham. Saka and Gordon on the pitch. Not as a long term measure, but if we had an ultra disciplined 5 behind them it would work. 3 mobile centre halves and a pair of 6’s.
 
Pogba made a good stab of it. But he had Deschamps spend every training camp for a few years coaching him and a solid team n the same shape. He also had Jose trying to remould him unsuccessfully for half his time at United.
And ultimately, Deschamps started getting the best out of Pogba only when he let him be himself. When he didn't ask Pogba to change his game or playing style, and instead he picked the team around that. And when that was imperfect, he lived(and then, "died" - Switzerland) with the risks
 
After so many years with Southgate's dull football, Carsley did the right thing with the experiment. High risks high returns. England need to transition to attacking football. Let give Carsley time to experiment and hopefully he can find something that works. He won U21 European Championship with attacking football. Finger crossed
How?
 
He's a decent, mid-table level goal keeper. That's all. Its a shame things turned out the way they did with Ramsdale, while he's no Ederson this would have been the time he could have staked his England claim but ultimately he was also just decent hence sold by us and probably his England chances as well. I consider Pope to be the same level as Pickford.

England don't have really great goal keeper options i.e in comparison to the immensely talented midfield.
Englands midfield is a bigger problem than Pickford is
 
Fair to say that I think his chances of getting the permanent job now looks bleak after these 2 games.
 
Can we speak about the underperforming man city players who for not the first time tonight where underwhelming, especially the left back and stones in defence.

Also we looked better with gomes as the deep lying midfielder instead of rice.
100%

Fair play to Grealish he offered width and movement on the left and Madueke looked a real threat on the right especially not always cutting inside or passing the ball backwards as Palmer did.

Kane and Walker both look washed up and still incredible they can't find a fit left footed left back.

If England want to progress they have to appoint a manager who will pick the best team (Watkins or another CF who will stretch rather than compress play) rather than fit the big names in a starting eleven.
 
The hardest thing to do for the England manager will be moving on from Kane. Not saying they should yet

Actually yeah, they should. Get rid of the Kane jinx :lol:
 
After so many years with Southgate's dull football, Carsley did the right thing with the experiment. High risks high returns. England need to transition to attacking football. Let give Carsley time to experiment and hopefully he can find something that works. He won U21 European Championship with attacking football. Finger crossed
I agree and it's almost impossible not to qualify for tournaments nowadays so these games are as low-stakes as they can possible be. But Carsley's problem is he has no currency in the game - no reputation to withstand the criticism that will come with the hiccups as he transitions the team to a more progressive way of playing. The fans and media won't have the patience.
 
I would still prefer howe or potter over carsley, as the two former mentioned are a step up from southgate in terms of both ability and playing style, I don't know if we can say the same for carsley in terms of measuring his ability at senior international/club level