England in India 2021

Djemba-Djemba said:
The only truly world class spinner England have had for many many years is Swann. Moeen was very good for a while in England but struggled hugely away in general. Swann was great in all conditions.

I hope we dedicate more time to spin bowling in the future.
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I think Panesar was very good on his day too but similar to Moeen we couldn't quite figure out how to get into his head. Swann's single-mindedness was a very important part of his overall package.
 
Tottenhamguy said:
I know our spin options are poor but you can't make the comparison that Mason Crane was poor in the test he played in so Parkinson will be you can't use that mentality. Someone mentioned Virdi but he's not in the squad Parkinson is because the test selectors can see something in him. If we end up going 2-1 down then we should at least give him a go, We have nothing to lose.
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Virdi, Parkinson and Crane are all on tour as reserves.
 
NinjaFletch said:
I don't know if this is a good time to post this question with tempers fraying, but it's always struck me that the pitches debate revolves around a difference of cultures regarding what teams are good at.

English fans and commentators have been brought up on a diet of swing and fast bowling and are largely inclined to think that that is when cricket is at its best. When you hear people talk wistfully about some of the best batting performances they can remember it tends to be talked of in terms of courage and getting runs on tough pitches where there is a real sense of physical danger and bowlers are 'getting the batsmen's ticker going'. The result is a perception that cricket is at its best when it's being played in conditions that allow for that, and a failure to appreciate the craft and guile of spinners on slow pitches who are out thinking and out manoeuvring batsmen. The West Indies pacers are basically beloved in England and Waqar Younis, Imran Khan, and Wasim Akram are talked about in hushed whispers as if they were otherworldly. The likes of Muttiah Muralitharan or Anil Kumble don't seem to get anywhere near the same reverence, and even, I would argue, Zaheer Khan and Chaminda Vaas are remembered as fondly as spinners who were, frankly, far better.

India, historically, haven't produced teams that do well on those sorts of pitches but now, I would argue, they have a team that is probably best suited to them (other than maybe the Australians, but we did see what just happened last series against them) out of anyone in world cricket. And, at least, I'd be backing India to win a test on a fast, bouncy wicket over England most days. Since that development do Indian fans also prefer watching their team play, and win, on quick pitches, or would you rather watch India at home on a bunsen bundling out clueless batsmen who aren't good enough to play spin with their undeniable craft and guile.

Which I guess is a really long winded way of asking if we're naturally inclined to enjoy high octane stuff more and thats a universal truth amongst cricket fans, or if the perception that high octane cricket (and even that the quick bowlers bowling) is more enjoyable is an anglo-centric approach to the game which mistakes the cricket we grew up watching as 'good cricket' and everything else as inferior.

That's probably clumsily expressed. Hopefully it's clear what I mean.
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Excellent thought provoking post.

As an Indian my favorite has been this last series against Australia but that's likely because it's amazing to see us conquer our biggest challenge, so for me like @zing it will be watching us bat against pace on those kind of tracks.

At the same time my absolute fav bowler and one who I could watch forever is Warne. And as much as I hated when we lost to Pakistan with Sachin getting out to Saqlain.. Watching Saqlain was mesmerizing.

I don't think there is a straight answer to your question.
 
NinjaFletch said:
I don't know if this is a good time to post this question with tempers fraying, but it's always struck me that the pitches debate revolves around a difference of cultures regarding what teams are good at.

English fans and commentators have been brought up on a diet of swing and fast bowling and are largely inclined to think that that is when cricket is at its best. When you hear people talk wistfully about some of the best batting performances they can remember it tends to be talked of in terms of courage and getting runs on tough pitches where there is a real sense of physical danger and bowlers are 'getting the batsmen's ticker going'. The result is a perception that cricket is at its best when it's being played in conditions that allow for that, and a failure to appreciate the craft and guile of spinners on slow pitches who are out thinking and out manoeuvring batsmen. The West Indies pacers are basically beloved in England and Waqar Younis, Imran Khan, and Wasim Akram are talked about in hushed whispers as if they were otherworldly. The likes of Muttiah Muralitharan or Anil Kumble don't seem to get anywhere near the same reverence, and even, I would argue, Zaheer Khan and Chaminda Vaas are remembered as fondly as spinners who were, frankly, far better.

India, historically, haven't produced teams that do well on those sorts of pitches but now, I would argue, they have a team that is probably best suited to them (other than maybe the Australians, but we did see what just happened last series against them) out of anyone in world cricket. And, at least, I'd be backing India to win a test on a fast, bouncy wicket over England most days. Since that development do Indian fans also prefer watching their team play, and win, on quick pitches, or would you rather watch India at home on a bunsen bundling out clueless batsmen who aren't good enough to play spin with their undeniable craft and guile.

Which I guess is a really long winded way of asking if we're naturally inclined to enjoy high octane stuff more and thats a universal truth amongst cricket fans, or if the perception that high octane cricket (and even that the quick bowlers bowling) is more enjoyable is an anglo-centric approach to the game which mistakes the cricket we grew up watching as 'good cricket' and everything else as inferior.

That's probably clumsily expressed. Hopefully it's clear what I mean.
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A win on a green top in England or a bouncy Australian/South African wicket will always be more valuable than anything at home, since when I used to watch those almost never happened, and everyone knew the abject history of India on those tracks. It's why I thought the Indian win at the WACA in 2008 was up there with the wins in the series that just finished. Even the 2007 series win in England against an average side on placid wickets was a big deal. It is kind of like winning at the Nou Camp or Bernabeu or at Bayern, there's a reason the 1999 semi-final is still remembered.

But I'd expect the opposite from (sorry for the shorthand) the white cricketing countries. They've struggled away vs India, and a spinning track in the heat is supposed to be a nightmare, an unconquered final frontier for Waugh, etc.

In terms of thrills and quality, there are some spin-dominated matches I can remember which were very good - the famous Eden gardens follow-on had a great spin-dominated finish, an away win at Sri Lanka when Murali and Mendis were superb, and a one-man contest of Amla vs Harbhajan in another Eden gardens test, Amla remained unbeaten for the whole day, but ran out of partners with 1 over left. I think objectively these were as thrilling, but I'll always value Sachin vs Steyn more.
 
@berbatrick did you not enjoy Steve Smith vs India from Australia's last tour? It was arguably the best consistent batting against spin from a SENA batsman (even better than KP).
 
SinNombre said:
@berbatrick did you not enjoy Steve Smith vs India from Australia's last tour? It was arguably the best consistent batting against spin from a SENA batsman (even better than KP).
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haven't watched a full test match since ~2011

e - i saw bits of the 4-0 defeats in england and australia soon after that but they were so bad i've forgotten all of it.
 
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berbatrick said:
haven't watched a full test match since ~2011

e - i saw bits of the 4-0 defeats in england and australia soon after that but they were so bad i've forgotten all of it.
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That was the year of Dhoni and trundlers.

Some great test series in the past 6-7 years, including Australia's last series in India.
 
Ashwin could get a 100 and 10 wickets in a match. What a champion. India needs to find somebody once he and Jaddu retire in a few years..
 
NM said:
Ashwin could get a 100 and 10 wickets in a match. What a champion. India needs to find somebody once he and Jaddu retire in a few years..
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I remember about two years ago on this forum having an exchange with someone who ridiculed me for saying they’re two of the best ever spinners india produced.

can’t remember who it was.

Jadeja’s spin abilities are incredibly underrated because he has so many facets to hisgame.
 
Weird shot selection by England today. Both Ollie Pope and Foakes got out to nothing balls really. Even Root should have been out but was dropped after playing the reverse sweep which was again unnecessary.

Ashwin has got Stokes out 10 times in 19 innings. That's broad-werner esque.
 
zing said:
I remember about two years ago on this forum having an exchange with someone who ridiculed me for saying they’re two of the best ever spinners india produced.

can’t remember who it was.

Jadeja’s spin abilities are incredibly underrated because he has so many facets to hisgame.
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Agreed about Jadeja, he is very good bowler and very underrated too. If he was playing in this test, it would have been even easier win.

Ashwin is considered as one of our best even bowlers and he is one of our best ever all-rounders too.
 
berbatrick said:
A win on a green top in England or a bouncy Australian/South African wicket will always be more valuable than anything at home, since when I used to watch those almost never happened, and everyone knew the abject history of India on those tracks. It's why I thought the Indian win at the WACA in 2008 was up there with the wins in the series that just finished. Even the 2007 series win in England against an average side on placid wickets was a big deal. It is kind of like winning at the Nou Camp or Bernabeu or at Bayern, there's a reason the 1999 semi-final is still remembered.

But I'd expect the opposite from (sorry for the shorthand) the white cricketing countries. They've struggled away vs India, and a spinning track in the heat is supposed to be a nightmare, an unconquered final frontier for Waugh, etc.

In terms of thrills and quality, there are some spin-dominated matches I can remember which were very good - the famous Eden gardens follow-on had a great spin-dominated finish, an away win at Sri Lanka when Murali and Mendis were superb, and a one-man contest of Amla vs Harbhajan in another Eden gardens test, Amla remained unbeaten for the whole day, but ran out of partners with 1 over left. I think objectively these were as thrilling, but I'll always value Sachin vs Steyn more.
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England vs Australia is the no. 1 series home or away for those countries because of the history & rivalry between the sides. I think most English supporters realize India and Pakistan are probably the most difficult places to tour and offer the biggest sporting challenge. Also, don’t forget lots of players from the subcontinent have played county and league cricket in England and have far more experience of English conditions than most English players have of playing in the sub continent.

I don’t think white countries is an appropriate comment btw, the UK is a multicultural country with supporters from all kinds of backgrounds. Nothing to do with skin color.
 
zing said:
I remember about two years ago on this forum having an exchange with someone who ridiculed me for saying they’re two of the best ever spinners india produced.

can’t remember who it was.

Jadeja’s spin abilities are incredibly underrated because he has so many facets to hisgame.
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Jadeja would've been ridiculous on this pitch. He's a huge miss for us.
Axar is basically a poor man's Jadeja and he has troubled England a lot in this match.
 
Moeen finalised his IPL contract. Is he going back after this match?
 
Brilliant win for India. Completely outplayed England who just gave up after they saw ball spinning. Not a good showing from them.

Ashwin, rohit and axar were just brilliant. I know some are unhappy ash didn't pick up 10 wickets but I am more happy kuldeep picked up 2 wickets. The boy needed some confidence after having tough couple of years. Also glad axar picked up a 5fer. I know pitch is turning more than the first test but he has done what nadeem failed to do in the first test. All in all a brilliant performance.
 
Skills said:
Has Rory Burns done anything of note since the Ashes in 2019?
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Position defiantly under threat as is Sibley if Crawley is fit then he comes in so take your pick out of them two, best of a bad duo I suppose one way you can look at it.
 
Guess England will drop Lawrence and burns and pick Crawley and Bairstow. Would be the right move. Moeen going back is a bit of a blow.
 
I think England's squad rotation makes sense but not the matches the players are choosing to sit out. That seems muddled to me.
 
I don't really know much about the pink ball in the subcontinent are we expecting more/less turn? more bounce/less bounce? in the next test obviously.
 
Rams said:
England vs Australia is the no. 1 series home or away for those countries because of the history & rivalry between the sides. I think most English supporters realize India and Pakistan are probably the most difficult places to tour and offer the biggest sporting challenge. Also, don’t forget lots of players from the subcontinent have played county and league cricket in England and have far more experience of English conditions than most English players have of playing in the sub continent.

I don’t think white countries is an appropriate comment btw, the UK is a multicultural country with supporters from all kinds of backgrounds. Nothing to do with skin color.
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The relevant English players have arguably more IPL experience than Indian players of county cricket.
 
Tottenhamguy said:
Position defiantly under threat as is Sibley if Crawley is fit then he comes in so take your pick out of them two, best of a bad duo I suppose one way you can look at it.
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The opening batsman situation really is ridiculous for England. When Cook was there, the challenge seemed to be finding a good partner for him, and now that he’s retired there are two voids to fill that haven’t been filled yet.

For a country that produces so many quality cricketers, it’s a bit crazy they can’t find any consistent openers.
 
Not really a fan of the terminology used with Moeen "choosing to go home" for a pre-arranged break from the bubble with Buttler and Bairstow being "rested"
 
Great performance from the team. Huge third test match coming up - will we see record crowds for this?

Massive debut for Axar. Really happy for the guy. Also R Ashwin has been incredible for us these last few years. His improvement in foreign conditions and his ability at home has made into him into a legend for India. What a player.
 
Well done India, a thorough pasting. Clearly undercooked for the first Test. Sets the series up nicely for the day/night Test.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
Not really a fan of the terminology used with Moeen "choosing to go home" for a pre-arranged break from the bubble with Buttler and Bairstow being "rested"
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I don't think it was the plan, was it? Otherwise they wouldn't have dropped Bess for him.

Root was pretty forthright in his defence of Mooen in the press conference at any rate.
 
NinjaFletch said:
I don't think it was the plan, was it? Otherwise they wouldn't have dropped Bess for him.

Root was pretty forthright in his defence of Mooen in the press conference at any rate.
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Seemed like it was pre-agreed with Moeen but for some reason the ECB haven't outlined all their plans. I don't think Root is to blame here at all, the fault would be from the ECB who haven't always handled Moeen that well.
 
KM said:
Indian commentators talk a lot of shit. The last time Aussie visited, the first test match pitch was more extreme and it backfired on us with O Keefe absolutely wrecking us. Took 12/80 or something like that. We got bowled out for 105 in both innings.
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So India couldn’t bat on the wicket they prepared?
 
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