I think England 2021 to present is a better squad than Spain 2021 to present.
England Discussion
- Thread starter Samid
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I think England 2021 to present is a better squad than Spain 2021 to present.
Sure. And? Spain 2021 to present is a better squad than Italy or Morocco as well. They still lost
The netherlands in '74 had the best squad, and Rinus Michels on the bench, and lost. Brazil '82, France '02 and 2004, Germany 2012, France 2016 and 2021(where they did show up with a team that was "If they don't win it's their fault" level good) and again 2022...
Hell Brazil didn't win with Thiago Silva, Casemiro, Militao, Alisson, Neymar, Vinicius, etc...lost to Croatia of all things, in a game they should have won 4-0...
There is some similarities between both coaches. Both stick to their plan even if it is not working. Spain was tedious, boring and could not create much.
It couldn't against Morocco. Against Italy at the Euros they could have scored 4, easily
Better teams / better managers usually have better chances for winning games. Sometimes they don't and shit happens. Unfortunately, the Italy final followed a trend for Southgate that we have seen for multiple years.
We will just have to agree to disagree.
The trend being losing games against the sort of teams England could lose to. *Should* lose to really, in the case of France
It's fair enough if you think England need something more from Southgate to win - I disagree and I can pick literally any recent WC/Euro/Copa winner to make my point, but no matter - but to treat England losing to freaking Italy, a side that was nuclear hot and went over 30 games without losing, a side that, had the game taken place outside of England, would have likely entered that final as outright favourites, as some kind of ultimate failure, to complain about losing without giving great teams enough of a game, after the way England lost to France at the last world cup...come the feck on
I would wager that most people disagree with you regarding that England - Italy final though. It's at Wembley and they're 1-0 up. The stage was set, and he fluffed it.
England football will never make you happy
He's Scottish. I don't think he'd be too gutted with England remaining... unhappy. I love this hill of yours, by the way. It's so quirky and out there! I never thought I'd see someone championing the work of Gareth Southgate!
I love this hill of yours, by the way. It's so quirky and out there! I never thought I'd see someone championing the work of Gareth Southgate!
It's less championing and more bafflement from us non-Ingurland folk at how entitled ye can come off at times
A WC semifinalist and a Euros finalist... Can ye do better? Slim pickings in international football, but sure. It's all the "Southgate is crap" that is insane to watch. We outsiders do remember the dark days pre-Southgate with that golden generation not even coming close.
So yeah. Bafflement.
I love this hill of yours, by the way. It's so quirky and out there! I never thought I'd see someone championing the work of Gareth Southgate!
It would be great if you got to every final and lost.
England aren't some plucky underdogs who are lucky to be there, but they've played like it a lot more times than not. Once in a while, the stars genuinely align and England have the potential to go all the way and I think at those times people are more fired up than when it's pure hopeium. Mexico '70; Italy '90 and the previous tournament have been very strong sides that faced adversity at the wrong moment or simply faced a stunning side in '70's case and you can't really complain about that. But I would say that the bottom line is most England fans can differentiate between the times the team is likely to go out and times when, with the correct utilisation, there's little reason for them not to be contesting right to the very end.It's less championing and more bafflement from us non-Ingurland folk at how entitled ye can come off at times
A WC semifinalist and a Euros finalist... Can ye do better? Slim pickings in international football, but sure. It's all the "Southgate is crap" that is insane to watch. We outsiders do remember the dark days pre-Southgate with that golden generation not even coming close.
So yeah. Bafflement.
There's a number of factors right now that reasonably state this is England's best chance(s) to win majors but for some tweaking and positivity in approach and that adds to the frustration. The litany of errors in what Southgate did the last two tournaments have been documented on here, and for all intents and purposes, they are shocking decisions and errors better coaches simply wouldn't make. There's dread he's about to do it again in the upcoming tournament, and if you can call it before it happens, something is dreadfully wrong.
There are ways to lose and go out and ways where fans are going to rue it for years - you can see that in the posts, too. When England have deserved to go out and simply weren't on course to win the tournament at any point (hopeium), the grumbles die down quickly and are never brought up en masse again. When it feels unjust and like a better coach with more positivity would have turned games, it's discussed and dissected ad naseum and the ire doesn't fade. These distinctions are pretty clear I feel, if you cut away the initial chaff and saltiness of going out of any tournament. There's a reason why what lingers does so.
I think to the rest of the world, the perception of England as perennial losers who should be happy with their lot runs through the confusion, but there's a whole lot more to it than that - England know when they're good, bad or middling, perhaps moreso than any other major nation, as it happens. Parse the chest-thumping from what is actually said and it becomes clear.
It would be great if you got to every final and lost.
Thanks for the detailed post (as always!)
And maybe it's because we are way more exposed to the English team's issues through our PL fandom, so we think Ingurlanders are more irrational.
I was on Maldini's wiki page and I realized he didn't win a national title with Italy (they got close several times), which is astounding considering the level of talent Italian football had in the 80s to early 2000s. Was there this level of bitching, or did they just accept they came close but didn't get the rub of the green (until 2006)?
I don't have the inside track on Italian psychology going into majors or the scrutiny they hold their own teams to, but I can tell you my OH's step-father was a fanatical Azzurri follower and tended to grade the sides by the best of the best, so most were never good enough in his eyes and he'd have a downer on their chances at every major in a melodramatic fashion.
I think Italy's challenge over the years has been matching their midfields to their defence and attack. Where there's a paucity in certain positions for England, Italy have it in midfield as a unit, so, if I had to hazard a guess, there's more likely to be buoyancy when they enter a tournament with a solid, quality midfield because the other areas of their team will do their jobs with applomb. I don't think it's a coincidence that their last two triumphs have come about with midfields that have shown throughout their respective tournaments.
@giorno can better fill you in on this, though. Perhaps I'm talking hokum.
Lots of bitching, but it was directed at the correct sources - Zenga in '90(he is still getting flak for this, which I guess is part of where I don't get England fans bitching at Southgate instead of Kane - the guy actually directly responsible for 2 of their 3 eliminations), bad luck in '94 and '98, CURSE YOU FOOTBALL GODS in 2000, Byron Moreno in 2002, and Trap in 2004.
We need to do a plus and minus column for Southgate. I'll give him this, players absolutely love him.
It’s the manner of the loss especially against Italy that grates.It's less championing and more bafflement from us non-Ingurland folk at how entitled ye can come off at times
A WC semifinalist and a Euros finalist... Can ye do better? Slim pickings in international football, but sure. It's all the "Southgate is crap" that is insane to watch. We outsiders do remember the dark days pre-Southgate with that golden generation not even coming close.
So yeah. Bafflement.
We are at home, go 1-0 very early. That is the time to press like animals, Italy were rattled, get another goal or at least increase the pressure. Instead we sit back.
The cowardice for the rest of the game was clear.
A better manager would recognise that 5 minutes in we can win it right there. Klopp, Ferguson, pep would have been screaming like banshees from the sideline to turn the effort up and put it to bed there and then and we just sat back and hoped.
In the words of Del Boy “he who dares rodders “
He’s way way too cautious especially when we had the chance to pounce.
I don’t mind losing but when we don’t make the best advantage when we are on top I can’t abide that.
You need to watch that game again
I’m pretty much sure I don’t but if you have a different opinion on how things went please share !
It was a fair while ago now……..
Italy come out aggressive trying to press England high up in an effort to stop the wembley effect. Only they came in expecting to press England in a 433, get caught completely flat-footed by the 352, England play through Italy's press and score, Walker-to-Shaw, in the first minute of the game.
England then proceed to do EXACTLY THAT for the first ~20/30 minutes of the game. Combined with Italy just not having the right counters for how England occupy the pitch, England come close to kill the game off. A bit too much frenzy and a bit too little quality with the final pass/shot stops them from running away with the game.
Ran out of energy. Understandably. The low block has bern exceptional all tournament long and Italy's biggest struggles come against low blocks. Unsurprisingly, England spend the rest of the half catching their breath in the low block without Italy even coming close to troubling them.
Mancini/Italy figure out how to mark Kane to stymie England's transition attack, put the right counters in place to deal with England's 352 and, combined with the tirer legs, manage to start gaining a semblance of true control on the game. Still not dangerous though. Then Mancini takes out Immobile, moves Insigne down the middle and Chiesa inverted foot on the left and Italy become dangerous and start putting serious pressure on England. Southgate reacts by taking out Rice - MOTM until then - for Liverpool captain, PL/CL winner, experienced Jordan Henderson, likely hoping his combination of experience, leadership, and passing range, might help England either regain a foothold in the game, or at least improve their counterattack. Then Italy scores off a corner. Now Italy have more energy and turn up the pressure further. Southgate reacts by putting in fresh legs to hit Italy on the counter while moving back to a 433. Then Italy starts to tire and Mancini has to make changes of his own which make Italy significantly worse. Southgate introduces Graelish and England start consolidating possession more frequently, they in fact become the more attacking team of the two, though it's a more or less even game into the first half of ET. Then Italy runs out of gas and the second half of ET is Italy holding for penalties vs England trying not very well - and arguably not very hard - to win it.
You have described Southgate's gameplan coming into the game
One guy who never coached a national team except in emergency, and two guys who haven't, one of whom isn't even considering it as of now
This may be true about extra time. Counterpoint: it's extra time of a Euro final. You either roll the dice and take significant risks to win it in ET, or you try to minimize those risks, which likely means rolling the dice with penalties
You tried. You failed
Of all things?
People getting upset by the cross on the kit are absolute weapons.
Yes? Same team England lost to and a worse version of it at that? That Brazil side was great, played Croatia off the park, and lost by missing 50 chances and conceding off a freak deflected shot on pretty much Croatia's only real attack of the game. A minute after Neymar had finally broken through by scoring the goal of the tournament
So weird isn't it? I am convinced they actually love this stuff, and they actually will it to happen. It's the only thing that gives them a sense of purpose and excitement. Utter freaks.
Start a thread on it. should be fun
Ye the flag fall out is daft - it's not even a flag, it just a tiny emblem on the back of the neck
The thing people should be getting upset about is that this crap costs £120!
Who even buys this rubbish?!
The thing people should be getting upset about is that this crap costs £120!
Who even buys this rubbish?!
I'm not one of them, but I don't see it as weird at all.
International sporting competition by the very nature of what it is will always summon up feelings of patriotism, it's kind of the whole point of it.
Most countries wear their national flag's colour's as their kits. Some who don't wear colours historically associated with the country like The Netherlands and their orange from the House of Orange-Nassau, Italy with the blue associated with the House of Savoy etc.
Fans routinely wave flags at matches, national anthems are sung before games. Football association crests often contain something from a country's coat of arms like the three lions from England, eagles from Mexico, Nigeria, Germany, Poland and Russia, elephants from the Ivory coast. Then there's other things that mean something to the people like the Gallic rooster on the French logo.
The whole thing is drenched in national symbology and heraldry and supporters take pride in it all from countries all over the world. If someone messes with that in some way it's understandable to me that a proportion of people wouldn't be happy with it.
Like I said though, I'm not personally arsed. I'm not really into international football.
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I think Scotland should say feck it and just put a giant haggis on the shirt.
Go on then, I’ll bite. Simply, it’s either the cross of St. George or it isn’t. There is no such thing as a ‘playful update’. Not that I really care to be honest.
Clearly it is being blown out of all proportion. Smacks of a bit of opportunist populism by Starmer. He should really be above this as a prime minister in waiting. The arguement really isn’t helped being championed by Farage, Lee Anderson and the Daily Fail, and the use of the word ‘woke’. Labour probably shouldn’t get involved with that lot.
However I agree that the prices for these things are utterly disgusting, and the FA should put a stop to it as it’s a national shirt.
Nice to see Keir Starmer highlighting one of the country's major issues. A miniscule design choice on an England kit. Jesus wept.
Go on then, I’ll bite. Simply, it’s either the cross of St. George or it isn’t. There is no such thing as a ‘playful update’. Not that I really care to be honest.
Clearly it is being blown out of all proportion. Smacks of a bit of opportunist populism by Starmer. He should really be above this as a prime minister in waiting. The arguement really isn’t helped being championed by Farage, Lee Anderson and the Daily Fail, and the use of the word ‘woke’. Labour probably shouldn’t get involved with that lot.
However I agree that the prices for these things are utterly disgusting, and the FA should put a stop to it as it’s a national shirt.
There has been a playful update of the cross and flag on many previous kits. It's just a cross. It's not harming a single person. Why give a shit?
Please note the part of my post you bolded that states I don’t care personally. I’m just playing devils advocate.
It’s because it’s a national symbol. Granted, technically it needs to be on a white background but the cross is red, not blue or purple. If it’s not red it’s not the England cross, so why is it there?!
Can you imagine the uproar if they did this to the yanks? Swap the stars for love heart shapes and colour the stripes in rainbow colours. There would be riots!! People may even be killed.
I remember the furore when United dropped ‘football club’ from the crest. It’s the same badge but that wasn’t a popular move.
That's slightly different to a stylish change in non political colours (it looks like something Patagonia would make tbh). I know you're playing devils advocate but imo there's no leg to stand on and it's absolute bollocks.
There was an England kit with blue crosses on the back of it a while back, nobody said anything then but we're ten years further into a phony culture war so now it's an issue apparently.
It sounds like Croatia was a plucky underdog in both games - of all things. Yes, England lost to Croatia and we played them of the park in the 2nd half and in OT. Brazil was better, sure, but there certainly wanst 50 chances and no, attack for the goal wasnt only real attack, dont exaggarate.. It amazes me how Croatia is still treated like some D team which happens to qualify to every tournament by pure accident I suppose and was 2nd and 3rd in consecutive World cups. If I misinterpreted your post I apologize.
We are the least serious nation in the world. Honestly. Forget actual problems affecting the country, let's all foam at the mouth over the design of a 2 inch rectangle on the back of a football shirt.
Disappointing (though not surprising) that Starmer is grifting into this too. Absolute coward.
Disappointing (though not surprising) that Starmer is grifting into this too. Absolute coward.
Go on then, I’ll bite. Simply, it’s either the cross of St. George or it isn’t. There is no such thing as a ‘playful update’. Not that I really care to be honest.
Clearly it is being blown out of all proportion. Smacks of a bit of opportunist populism by Starmer. He should really be above this as a prime minister in waiting. The arguement really isn’t helped being championed by Farage, Lee Anderson and the Daily Fail, and the use of the word ‘woke’. Labour probably shouldn’t get involved with that lot.
However I agree that the prices for these things are utterly disgusting, and the FA should put a stop to it as it’s a national shirt.
That's a poor job at biting
BTW the US flag with rainbow stripes has been done many times - their national team even changed the badge which is a much bigger deal than this tiny emblem
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...ainbow-logo-qatar-world-cup-2022-soccer-lgbtq
I’m sure one of our regulars will be along shortlyThat's a poor job at biting
Croatia beating England in 2018 wasn't an upset, they were the better team. Brazil was a major upset and yes, Brazil should have won that game by 3 or 4 goals
The kind of dumdum who gives a shit about the colour of a tiny flag it seems!