Yep and also Maguire and Varane have been fairly comfortable in handling Kane whenever we've played against him, if we're going to do the whole club football thing...
England Discussion
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
How many times have we played a "world champion side in a knockout game in a major tournament away from Wembley" in the last several decades?
Yeah that's the game I was thinking of,we even took the lead too. One moment that sticks out more than the Ronaldinho goal was Beckham jumping the ball in lead up to their equaliser.
England has more depth and are able to employ more variations. But whether or not thats going to be a strength depends on Sir Doorway Opposite to the North.
Yeah the rest are bang average but the player behind Welbeck is a legend though.
That's weird you're quoting me but I never said that?
This is probably the best England team since 1990. But it's still not good enough I fear. Maguire is just too slow and Stones isn't good enough to compensate. In 1990 we had the incredible Des Walker and we still lost (albeit to a freak deflected goal and penalties).
The problem with this game is we aren't just facing the defending champions and top european seeds,there is history against us as have never beaten an elite team in a KO game away from Wembley.
They should set up a sentry post and hire ex navy seal to be bodyguards
History also suggests that the current champions don't get close to winning the thing. Also there are parallels with Germany & France who came close to winning the last 2 Euros with up and coming teams and then ended up the winning the next world cup.
Interesting point. With one exception in the last half-century, every European winner of the World Cup went close or won the previous Euros - if you extend it back from France 16/18 and Germany 12/14, to Spain in 08/10, France in 96/98, West Germany in 88/90, Italy in 80/82, Germany in 72/74.
Harry isn`t the fastest and United fans know that he lacks technical finesse but I think he has certainly looked threatening at set pieces and his height gives England an advantage. To give Southgate his due, he has utilised those aspects of Harry`s game and I even enjoyed watching him and Luke against Wales - something I wasn`t confident about before that game.
Sure the French strikers and midfield can be very dangerous but England`s previous game against Senegal showed so much more cohesion and confidence. Let`s hope Southgate gets the right balance - if he does England can squeeze past France.
Sure the French strikers and midfield can be very dangerous but England`s previous game against Senegal showed so much more cohesion and confidence. Let`s hope Southgate gets the right balance - if he does England can squeeze past France.
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But that suggests that had we beaten Argentina in 1986 it would be relevant to whatever happens tomorrow. It wouldn't, of course.
Had we beat Argentina in 86 and Brazil in 2002 would you be saying we stood a better chance as we've at least beaten two top quality oppositions away from Wembley before?
I can't see how any of what's happened before is relevant; good, bad or indifferent
True, but it can still remain a psychological barrier for the players. Up to the players to overcome.
I did a DNA test and I came up 97% english WTF
Come on France!!
Come on France!!
I don't think previous results really have anything to do with the current. You are quite literally only the same as those previous teams in name. Thats it. Different team around you and different team opposite you. Venue, sure, that can make a difference but outside of that its just the pressure of the occasion and who can best perform under the weight of expectation.
Such an obvious French win this. One team has Mbappe and the other has Maguire. That will be the difference.
The jinx attempts aren't even subtle. 
Combined 11 something like?
Pickford
Walker
Varane
Stones
Shaw
Tchouameni
Rabiot
Bellingham
Mbappe
Kane
Dembele
Pickford
Walker
Varane
Stones
Shaw
Tchouameni
Rabiot
Bellingham
Mbappe
Kane
Dembele
Lloris
Walker - Varane - Upamecano - Hernandez
Tchouameni - Bellingham
Griezmann
Dembele - Kane - Mbappe
Walker - Varane - Upamecano - Hernandez
Tchouameni - Bellingham
Griezmann
Dembele - Kane - Mbappe
I'd change Pickford for Lloris and go for this as well.
I know it is on the right, but I would choose Foden over Dembele.
Griezmann and Theo Hernandez, along with Rabiot, have probably been the best French players apart from Mbappe.
Juvenile posting.
Well I will just list World Cups and since 1966 but Euros are the same pattern. You get the idea.
2018 Croatia
2014 no knock out
2010 Germany
2006 Portugal
2002 Brazil
1998 Argentina
1994 Didn't qualify
1990 Germany
1986 Argentina
1982 no knock out
1978 Didn't qualify
1974 Didn't qualify
1970 W Germany
He's not wrong though.
Yeah that 1970 defeat to West Germany is a real concern ahead of tomorrow
He's not wrong that we have Maguire and France have Mbappe but he is wrong that it's such an obvious French win. It should be close, if both teams play to their potential. And the 'one team has Mbappe the other has Maguire' is a bit stupid. One team has Kane, the other has Lloris, clear English win - that's how it works, right?
It's relevant because we have a storied history of deluding ourselves that we are way better than the stats say we are. The idea we were going to beat Maradonna's Argentina (for example) was laughable in retrospect, but people still believed it at the time because that's the game the English press like to play. Right up to the point he slalomed through our team like it wasn't there.
Even in 2018 many people were acting like we would roll over Croatia till Modric showed what world class meant. The only one of the games we deserved to win was 1990 against Germany when we were genuinely unfortunate.
This time we are actually slightly nearer the 1990 situation than the 1986 situation. There are reasons to think we might win. But Mbappe and Maguire tilt away from that and an English win would be an upset. You have to be realistic. They have the best player in the world. We have a defender with a known and glaring weakness for speed and turning who really isn't up to this game. The rest could go either way but those two things loom pretty large.
I was only young at the time but I don’t recall us being massive favourites to beat Argentina in 86. We’d been very poor at the start of that tournament. It certainly wasn’t laughable that England might have won though and I still think it was a tough match to call. That’s a squad with Lineker, Barnes, Waddle, Beardsley and Hoddle all in their prime and Shilton was still one of the best keepers, with a decent defence. Had Lineker put away that late headed chance it might have ended very differently.
1990 was a much tougher task. England probably didn’t have as strong a team and Germany were a much stronger all-round team than Argentina 1986. England probably deserved to win the way the match played out but we were clear underdogs beforehand.
AS I remember it we were being swept by Gaza-mania in 1990 and everyone thought we were amazing. There was a lot of abuse for Robson in qualifiers when he played 4-4-2 but once he switched away from that, things got very carried away.
In 1986 everyone was focused on Maradonna. It was not long after the Falklands and it felt like a grudge game. Plus we never perform in South America. The heat was against us. Sure there were always people who think we will win the World Cup but neutrals didn't fancy us in that game.
This for me as well
We were dreadful throughout the 1990 World Cup. The only good match we played was Germany (and we were ok against Holland). The rest was dour tumescent stuff, with Gazza and Platt being the only real plus points. Perhaps I just didn’t read the tabloids, and of course there was some optimism as we reached the SF, but I don’t recall any real feeling we were the best team in the tournament.
I agree it was a poor group stage till they switched from 4-4-2. The goal against Belgium? The come back againt Cameroon? Gazza was outstanding as I recall.
I doubt Southgate is going to play Maguire on speedsters such as Mbappe. He will use Harry in a different defensive context and will make good use of his height especially at set pieces. Yes France is formidable but England do have enough players who can be flexible as well as a much better strikeforce and midfield than the last World Cup version.
I am starting to think England could squeeze past France but Southgate is going to have to nail the tactics. That includes starting Foden for one.
I’d probably need to rewatch but i remember the Belgium match being extremely tumescent until Platt’s goal. Cameroon was a decent match but not one that shouted out “potential winners” to me. Here’s a quote from a Guardian article at the time:
“Bobby Robson's eight-year career as England manager nearly ended in tragi-farce here last night but the team are in the semi-finals of a World Cup abroad for the first time after a victory over Cameroon notable more for its courage and resilience than any overall quality of performance.”
Doesn't exactly scream out as “it’s coming home”.
Head says France. Heart says 'I'm not sentient you stupid cnut'. I think England will go out tonight. Hope I'm wrong
Either France scores first or England will go through. If we had a fully fit squad, I'd be 100% confident. England has got back depth
This annoys me
so are you saying we can simply never, like ever….win a KO against an elite side? Purely because history suggests that’s what happens?
our squad is arguably better
And we are European Finalist who lost on penalties
like Brazil, I don’t see France as scary good
I see them as pretty decent just like us, but our bench goes further
I think the English will go through. Southgate will set up the team to sit deep and defence. Their defence is very solid. On the other hand, they are deadly with counter attacking with pace with Bellingham, Saka, Rashford, Foden and Kane.
It was pretty tumescent. But good tumescent. Like George Graham Arsenal.
Poster is saying this is exactly the kind of game we never win. And the reason is that we are not good enough.
That said it's just a statistic and there are lots of reasons to think this England team has advantages over previous ones that raise it above the mediocre. I think we can win but the odds favour France. We are underdogs in this one. But one of the biggest unmentioned levellers is that we are playing in December in air conditioned stadiums. Heat and end of season tiredness and injury have always been big invisible factors in England failures over the years.
But they have Mbappe and we have Maguire.