England Discussion

Andersonson said:
Yeah.... I dont think we'll agree on this. Your take is so armchair/fifa its baffling. You dont go to a final in the euro being a crap manager. Its fine to not like his tactics, thats a different take.
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of course you can, it’s a knock out tournament for goodness sake.

He is an awful manager but when you play so defensively in a knock out tournament anything is possible, doesn’t make him a good manager at all. Purely cos of luck + a ridiculous amount of defensively minded players and tactics.
 
ICB said:
of course you can, it’s a knock out tournament for goodness sake.

He is an awful manager but when you play so defensively in a knock out tournament anything is possible, doesn’t make him a good manager at all. Purely cos of luck + a ridiculous amount of defensively minded players and tactics.
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So being defensively is crap. Got it
 
The only major problem I have is with Tomori not getting a look in. He’s an amazing defender and I just hope he gets a chance to prove that in the next tournament.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
The only major problem I have is with Tomori not getting a look in. He’s an amazing defender and I just hope he gets a chance to prove that in the next tournament.
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Should have took him instead of Dier/Maguire but was never gonna happen
 
ICB said:
of course you can, it’s a knock out tournament for goodness sake.

He is an awful manager but when you play so defensively in a knock out tournament anything is possible, doesn’t make him a good manager at all. Purely cos of luck + a ridiculous amount of defensively minded players and tactics.
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Greece Euro champions comes to mind.
 


Bit of a weird one but maybe have him on free kicks (kidding of course)
 
First game’s at 1pm on Monday. Hugely frustrating that most of us living in England won’t be able to watch the game due to school and work.
 
Come on England, I really hope you utterly destroy that disgusting Islamic Republic national team on Monday.

6-0 please.
 
Hanks said:
Come on England, I really hope you utterly destroy that disgusting Islamic Republic national team on Monday.

6-0 please.
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Iranian players have been pretty supportive of the cause of the revolution. Not sure the ones in power give a sh*t about the World Cup while trying to execute thousands of prisoners.
 
awop said:
Iranian players have been pretty supportive of the cause of the revolution. Not sure the ones in power give a sh*t about the World Cup while trying to execute thousands of prisoners.
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They went to visit the "president" before departing to Doha, mostly giving very boot-licking speeches and a few bowing down to them.

The mood inside the country is such of betrayal for them. I've seen many calls for them to be humiliated. Their banner was set to fire in Tehran yesterday.

People expected more from them, especially after the bravery and courage shown by beach football, paralo-volleyball, basketball, waterpolo, and female athletes.

The pre-match anthems will be very interesting.





 
Whats the formation going to be?

5-3-2 I suppose.

Maguire in the middle of the back 3.

Kane upfront on his own with sterling floating around behind?
 
Hanks said:
They went to visit the "president" before departing to Doha, mostly giving very boot-licking speeches and a few bowing down to them.

The mood inside the country is such of betrayal for them. I've seen many calls for them to be humiliated. Their banner was set to fire in Tehran yesterday.

People expected more from them, especially after the bravery and courage shown by beach football, paralo-volleyball, basketball, waterpolo, and female athletes.

The pre-match anthems will be very interesting.





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Fair enough, i had not seen that, i stopped at Iranian players hiding their flag during the anthem a few weeks ago.
 
DevilRed said:
Whats the formation going to be?

5-3-2 I suppose.

Maguire in the middle of the back 3.

Kane upfront on his own with sterling floating around behind?
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Yeah it'll pretty much be the same team as the one in the Euros. Except for Bellingham likely being a starter.
 
I'd like to think we won't 4 play at the back against the likes of Iran and Wales (similar to the Euros IIRC) but I wouldn't put it past Southgate.

Not expecting much from the group games at all, especially against Iran which I can see being a horrendous game. But I don't think it matters how we play as long as we top the group.
 
Hanks said:
They went to visit the "president" before departing to Doha, mostly giving very boot-licking speeches and a few bowing down to them.

The mood inside the country is such of betrayal for them. I've seen many calls for them to be humiliated. Their banner was set to fire in Tehran yesterday.

People expected more from them, especially after the bravery and courage shown by beach football, paralo-volleyball, basketball, waterpolo, and female athletes.

The pre-match anthems will be very interesting.





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Give them the benefit of the doubt Hanks dadash. We don't know what kind of pressure the regime has put them through to get these images. Let's see how they behave at the WC. Let's see if they can use the stage to show their true beliefs. I'm sure that there will be protests by all the players (excluding Torabi and Amiri ofc).
 
Noticed that Argentina had a friendly yesterday and few other teams are also

Why arent England playing any?
Surely a mistake
 
Frasbul said:
Give them the benefit of the doubt Hanks dadash. We don't know what kind of pressure the regime has put them through to get these images. Let's see how they behave at the WC. Let's see if they can use the stage to show their true beliefs. I'm sure that there will be protests by all the players (excluding Torabi and Amiri ofc).
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Done my best to do it dadash, but last couple of days while tens have died on the streets including kids....these so called National players:

- Taremi draped in IR flag for Porto photoshoot
- Players laughing, joking, eshvebazi for FIFA Page photoshoot
- Jahanbakhsh (captain) saying they're focused on football and the anthem singing or non-celebrations are personal matters and not a big deal.

Do you remember Zinchenko's first press confrence when the Ukraine war started? He was in complete tears and breakdown...now, that's a real national captain.

I'm just glad I'm old enough to remember the real patriotic national team of 1998-2004 with likes of Daei, Karimi, Mahdavikia and Bagheri. Not only just great footballers, but also amazing humans too.
 
Rood said:
Noticed that Argentina had a friendly yesterday and few other teams are also

Why arent England playing any?
Surely a mistake
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Yeah that is a bit weird,not buying into what Bullingham said about Toney not selected on Football grounds
 
If you weren’t already sick of Three Lions, it’s actually shit now.

 
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Bluelion7 said:
Sorry, I’m not a metrics nut, but my mention of pace from Saka is that you don’t necessarily have to ADD pace with Rashford in the lineup. I realize what else he brings because I watch the games.

Which would be our next point: why metrics lie to you. I watched a series of attacking movements going back to examine City highlights that were like artwork. Foden helped create the original space on the opposite side, then he played a series of quick passes and ultimately Gundogan got the assist. The way they measure a “key” pass isnt designed for “total football” and the way they play. Every now and then they will create that singular, astonishing pass, but by and large they dont need to.

Although Barnes sometimes outshines him in my opinion, Maddison has to force the issue more in trying to create. That may indeed

But my eyeballs tell me Foden is superior. I think Maddison is great and has a role to play. I would LOVE for Mount to be closer. But they aren’t. There have been games this year where Foden was the best player on a team with KDB, Silva, Gundogan, Cancelo, and Mahrez.

Foden, on his day, can be truly special, and has experience at a competitive level Maddison simply doesn’t.

Plus, again, my meaning in citing that Rashford might not be the best option was to point out Foden could take his place in your lineup, not Maddison’s.
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You're not a metric nut but similarly, I use metrics because I'm not into pub chat. Other than using the eye to judge a player, stats can sometimes tell you that a player isn't as good as some necessarily suggest.

When I put out my suggested team, I think about who will compliment who.

First of all, if you look at the full back and winger, you will notice they both lineup in the same club teams more or less week in week out, thus already having that strong relationship.

You then have to look at Harry Kane, who, when used in the correct way, is arguably our most dangerous player. Therefore, you have to play the team around him, especially in the final third anyway.

Kane at his best needs to be flanked by wingers who are quick and willing to run in behind. Just look at Son and Kulusevski, and the impact it caused Spurs when one of them got injured.

Based on that, I would opt to go with Rashford/Sterling and Saka because of the reasons stated above. That, and, I'm not sure you watch England a lot, but for all the hype that surrounds Foden, he's hardly majorly impressed when putting on an England shirt.

Following his injury in the Euro's, he struggled to find his place back into the squad when Saka came in for him, and in my opinion, it should remain the same.
 
DevilRed said:
Whats the formation going to be?

5-3-2 I suppose.

Maguire in the middle of the back 3.

Kane upfront on his own with sterling floating around behind?
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3-4-3 most likely. We'll probably switch between a back 3/4 in the group, but I imagine he'll play a back 3 at least one of the games so that we're comfortable with it going into the knockouts.

I highly doubt we'll play a front two to be honest, that would involve leaving out both Saka and Foden which would likely be a mistake.
 
Hanks said:
Done my best to do it dadash, but last couple of days while tens have died on the streets including kids....these so called National players:

- Taremi draped in IR flag for Porto photoshoot
- Players laughing, joking, eshvebazi for FIFA Page photoshoot
- Jahanbakhsh (captain) saying they're focused on football and the anthem singing or non-celebrations are personal matters and not a big deal.

Do you remember Zinchenko's first press confrence when the Ukraine war started? He was in complete tears and breakdown...now, that's a real national captain.

I'm just glad I'm old enough to remember the real patriotic national team of 1998-2004 with likes of Daei, Karimi, Mahdavikia and Bagheri. Not only just great footballers, but also amazing humans too.
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What did the Iran team do in 98-04 in terms of "patriotism"? Not having a go, I genuinely don't remember them criticizing the government.

I don't think it's fair to compare Zinchenko, whose country is with him entirely, to asking players to effectively be political dissents. Would be nice if they did, sure, but it's rare stuff. Don't recall the U.S team in 2006 criticizing their government even though the war in Iraq was an unpopular disaster by then that the public rejected months later in the midterm elections, or the England team coming out last month and saying the insane Truss budget was going to starve and freeze poor people and that if they win the World Cup they won't go to 10 Downing Street.
 
DannyCAFC said:
3-4-3 most likely. We'll probably switch between a back 3/4 in the group, but I imagine he'll play a back 3 at least one of the games so that we're comfortable with it going into the knockouts.

I highly doubt we'll play a front two to be honest, that would involve leaving out both Saka and Foden which would likely be a mistake.
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I hadn't thought about it but if England look bad and say finish 2nd in the group and have to play the Dutch in the round of 16, I wonder if Southgate will be tempted to try Kane and Rashford up top (so Kane has someone pacy to hit through balls to) with Foden as a 10 and just put the tournament on him, or even a 5-3-2 with Bellingham and Foden either side of Rice and then the best attacking options at wingback (Saka looked bad there so maybe it's still Shaw, but Alexander-Arnold at wingback over Trippier on the other side, I guess).
 
NoPace said:
What did the Iran team do in 98-04 in terms of "patriotism"? Not having a go, I genuinely don't remember them criticizing the government.

I don't think it's fair to compare Zinchenko, whose country is with him entirely, to asking players to effectively be political dissents. Would be nice if they did, sure, but it's rare stuff. Don't recall the U.S team in 2006 criticizing their government even though the war in Iraq was an unpopular disaster by then that the public rejected months later in the midterm elections, or the England team coming out last month and saying the insane Truss budget was going to starve and freeze poor people and that if they win the World Cup they won't go to 10 Downing Street.
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The class of 1998-2004, including the Iranian football legends I grew up with (Daei, Karimi, Mahdavikia, etc) have all rejected lucrative contracts to go as ambassadors and guests to Qatar for the WC, with Karimi being a de-facto political exilee now, and actually one of the main leaders of the protests. They've also been a lot more forward and direct in condemning the regime. IRGC has called for arrest of Karimi and confiscation of his assets. Ex-national team goalkeeper with 20 caps, Parviz Boroumand was arrested in protests 2 days ago and is now in jail, reportedly completely beaten up and awaiting long charges to be made an example of.

Also in those world cups, the regime wasn't literally killing their own people on the streets during the time of the World Cup, this is happening live. On the day a 10 year old gets shot by security forces and bleeds to death in front of his mom, and his mom opts to keep his body cold by borrowing ice from neighbours as opposed to taking the son to funeral home in fear of his son's body being kidnapped by IRGC forces (this is the Mafia state of Islamic Republic), the people expect the "National Team" members to at least not appear to jolly and dancy in their photoshoot. Or don't go and bow down to the perpetuator of this mass oppression and killing prior to your departure to the World Cup.

A thought experiment.

Imagine the Tory gov't had been ruthlessly suppressing national protests in UK for the past 2 months, with 15,000 arrested (80% of parliament has demanded their execution) and 340 already killed including 50+ children. Football community affected with Rooney running away from UK as a political refugee since the gov't wanted his arrest. David Seaman had been arrested in protests and beaten up and lashed in custody. And all of this is happening as the England NT is in Qatar ready for WC.

Would you guys in the UK be okay with the players acting like nothing is happening and it's business as usual? Maybe we hold players to different standards. but I'm just communicating the mood inside. In fact, those inside are a lot more angry at this behavior. Only people I know who're excited for Monday like a normal WC game is a minority of diaspora outside, especially second generation or those who don't have very deep connections with inside Iran or haven't visited in a long time.
 
Has anyone seen/ have pictures of people wearing the new away kit? Trying to decide if I should get it, or if it looks a bit ridiculous on normal people.
 
Pat Evra said:
Guys, what do you think, is Bellingham (guaranteed) starter vs Iran?
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100%

England have nobody else other than Rice in midfield. The question is who will partner Bellingham and Rice.

Mount is probably the favorite and then 2nd likeliest option is either:
A) Foden in midfield as a 10 since Iran will look to defend deep
B) Just 2 of Bellingham and Rice and 3 at the back being used.

Personally, my guess is Mount, but I think Southgate bringing Maddison means he's open to using a 10 and so Foden could just start there with the idea being Kane should be in the box rather than dropping deep if Iran's backline is going to be incredibly deep anyways.

I'm thinking either 1-0 England with a late goal, or maybe 2-1 England. I'd back Quieroz to get a draw with this much time to prepare but it doesn't look like Iran have the quality in midfield to deal with Bellingham and either Foden or Mount for 90 minutes. Could be a good game for Grealish or Alexander-Arnold to come on in the 2nd half and make the difference.
 
Rex Banner said:
I'd like to think we won't 4 play at the back against the likes of Iran and Wales (similar to the Euros IIRC) but I wouldn't put it past Southgate.

Not expecting much from the group games at all, especially against Iran which I can see being a horrendous game. But I don't think it matters how we play as long as we top the group.
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Well coached international teams that have no cachet compared to famous ones like England can end up giving the likes of those name international teams a very hard time. I hope I am wrong but I don`t think England are going to find it that easy to play Iran.

I have never been impressed by Southgate - not as a player, not as a manager - for a number of reasons and the decision to put Harry Maguire in the squad over a better defensive player of which there are a number in the Premier League and among English players in other leagues was downright cronyism. I like Harry but as we`ve seen with United he is limited in what he can do technically.

The fact that Harry hasn`t played enough with United makes it even worse as he has taken the place of another player who has been starting for his team. Not a decision to respect at all made by Southgate.

England can never get the strategies and optimal player utilisation correct at the World Cup and Euro competitions. Even when we had the Gerrard-Beckham etc team we couldn`t do it because most of the England team players either play the way they do in the Premier League and/or simply don`t have the ball holding/technical abilities of the successful international teams.

Holding the ball and knocking it around in successful passes until finding an opening is something that England finds difficult to do and somebody like Southgate was never going to be able to change that.
 
Hanks said:
The class of 1998-2004, including the Iranian football legends I grew up with (Daei, Karimi, Mahdavikia, etc) have all rejected lucrative contracts to go as ambassadors and guests to Qatar for the WC, with Karimi being a de-facto political exilee now, and actually one of the main leaders of the protests. They've also been a lot more forward and direct in condemning the regime. IRGC has called for arrest of Karimi and confiscation of his assets. Ex-national team goalkeeper with 20 caps, Parviz Boroumand was arrested in protests 2 days ago and is now in jail, reportedly completely beaten up and awaiting long charges to be made an example of.

Also in those world cups, the regime wasn't literally killing their own people on the streets during the time of the World Cup, this is happening live. On the day a 10 year old gets shot by security forces and bleeds to death in front of his mom, and his mom opts to keep his body cold by borrowing ice from neighbours as opposed to taking the son to funeral home in fear of his son's body being kidnapped by IRGC forces (this is the Mafia state of Islamic Republic), the people expect the "National Team" members to at least not appear to jolly and dancy in their photoshoot. Or don't go and bow down to the perpetuator of this mass oppression and killing prior to your departure to the World Cup.

A thought experiment.

Imagine the Tory gov't had been ruthlessly suppressing national protests in UK for the past 2 months, with 15,000 arrested (80% of parliament has demanded their execution) and 340 already killed including 50+ children. Football community affected with Rooney running away from UK as a political refugee since the gov't wanted his arrest. David Seaman had been arrested in protests and beaten up and lashed in custody. And all of this is happening as the England NT is in Qatar ready for WC.

Would you guys in the UK be okay with the players acting like nothing is happening and it's business as usual? Maybe we hold players to different standards. but I'm just communicating the mood inside. In fact, those inside are a lot more angry at this behavior. Only people I know who're excited for Monday like a normal WC game is a minority of diaspora outside, especially second generation or those who don't have very deep connections with inside Iran or haven't visited in a long time.
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Thank you for that stark reminder of what the people of Iran are really going through.
Hanks said:
Done my best to do it dadash, but last couple of days while tens have died on the streets including kids....these so called National players:

- Taremi draped in IR flag for Porto photoshoot
- Players laughing, joking, eshvebazi for FIFA Page photoshoot
- Jahanbakhsh (captain) saying they're focused on football and the anthem singing or non-celebrations are personal matters and not a big deal.

Do you remember Zinchenko's first press confrence when the Ukraine war started? He was in complete tears and breakdown...now, that's a real national captain.

I'm just glad I'm old enough to remember the real patriotic national team of 1998-2004 with likes of Daei, Karimi, Mahdavikia and Bagheri. Not only just great footballers, but also amazing humans too.
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With all due respect, Zinchenko wasn`t actually in the position of being against his own country and government - it was an extremely clear-cut situation of a hostile country invading his own Ukraine. His own government wasn`t threatening him and putting him in the terrible position of being torn between a love of his country and fear of/opposition to its government.

You cannot compare the situation of players under such a repressive regime in Iran where they and their families will be threatened, imprisoned and even killed for being opposed to those running their own country. Of course other Iranians can feel justified in calling out those Iranian football players but it is a different situation from that in the Ukraine, very different.

As for the Iranian flag being wrapped around Iranian players` shoulders - this is the flag of the country they honour because it is their country. Honouring your country`s flag doesn`t equate to honouring your country`s government especially if it is one based on tyranny and opression.
 
ryansgirl said:
Thank you for that stark reminder of what the people of Iran are really going through.

With all due respect, Zinchenko wasn`t actually in the position of being against his own country and government - it was an extremely clear-cut situation of a hostile country invading his own Ukraine. His own government wasn`t threatening him and putting him in the terrible position of being torn between a love of his country and fear of/opposition to its government.

You cannot compare the situation of players under such a repressive regime in Iran where they and their families will be threatened, imprisoned and even killed for being opposed to those running their own country. Of course other Iranians can feel justified in calling out those Iranian football players but it is a different situation from that in the Ukraine, very different.

As for the Iranian flag being wrapped around Iranian players` shoulders - this is the flag of the country they honour because it is their country. Honouring your country`s flag doesn`t equate to honouring your country`s government especially if it is one based on tyranny and opression.
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Thank you for your measured response. Just wanted to clarify a few things:

I think the anger towards the "Team Melli" stems mostly from how other sport teams have been much clearer in their support so far, and that's without having a global access to 6 billion people (World Cup). No other Iranian sports team also met with the Butchers, bowed down to them, or gave bootlicking speeches in their support. It was so bad that the club coach of some of the players called out the players and has been fined 20% of his annual salary as a result.

People expect the players to be their voice.In a country where everyday is a teenager's funeral, no one no longer cares if you do a rebona or score a bicycle kick. It's about using the platform to let the world know what's going on in Iran now and nothing is normal.I don't say weep like Zinchenko, but at least have some common decency with your poses and clown show. I posted this on the Iran Revolution thread, it's from 18 hours ago...you think people really care about football when their city gets invaded at night like this?



As for the flag. This flag and the crap sign in middle of it is solely the Islamic Republic flag. That symbol in the middle didn't even exists until 43 years ago. Hence it's purely the regime flag and not the 2400 year-old normal Iranian flag, that's why when we were in Russia 4 years ago for the World Cup, many of us either took the traditional flag or whiteouted the crab sign in the middle.

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Anyways, some more updates of chaos from Iran's camp:

Our second best ever football player, Ali Karimi, has called for mass protests today in support of the city that's being invaded by IRGC in the clip below. He tagged all national team players to say something yesterday, but to no response, he's asked for people to unfollow them and call the team "Regime team" and "a team without dignity, luckily I never played with you cowards". The comments section below the national team players page is full of curse and vulgarity from angry fans. The regime had to stage a pro-football team rally today !!! which has completely re-ignited the contrast of this team being Islamic Republic national team and not Iran.

Call for mass protests been made for after the game tomorrow also regardless of the result, but from my timeline, space and pretty much people I know inside, almost 80-90% are cheering for England tomorrow and want a global humiliation for this team.

Of course, it could all change if we see an act of remarkable courage by them tomorrow to show the world what's going on. Going by evidence so far, those chances are 10% at best, I'd say.

The situation is very tense. I predict possible chaos pre-game, with some Iran fans not allowed to stadiums in case they have the old flags, in-fighting between Iran fans, and massive booing of the Islamic Republic national anthem pre-match.
 
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