Emma Watson on Feminism

True equality (as it's being defined by some people in this discussion) can't ever be achieved because of the fundamental differences between the genders when it comes to creating/rearing children. Legislation about childcare cannot and should not be the same for both sexes.

It's really pedantic to get hung up on this aspect anyway. There's so much more to equality between sexes than an issue where biological differences mean the two genders will always be treated differently.
 
You need to find examples unique to them. The whole domestic role thing is problematic for women and men.

The mental illness stigma is also fairly non gender-specific. Men might be accused of not manning up while women risk accusations of being hysterical or neurotic.

Damn, I was just trying to think of some things white, heterosexual men might suffer from :lol:

I guess you got nothing ;)
 
I think he meant that men enjoy more rights and have it relatively easier. Which isn't nonsense in the slightest. All we can come up with to counter are things like parental rights, which while an issue in its own rights and should be addressed, is insignificant compared to the issues women face.
I should have thought the welfare of a child was anything but insignificant, in fact I would class it above almost anything else.

That's how we're being conditioned now though, men can't possibly be underprivileged in any way because they're men.
 
I should have thought the welfare of a child was anything but insignificant, in fact I would class it above almost anything else.

That's how we're being conditioned now though, men can't possibly be underprivileged in any way because they're men.
I don't know, if a Palestinian whose entire family has been killed, a woman who has been raped, whose mother has been raped and daughters have been raped shared a platform with Fathers For Justice do you really think there wouldn't be an odd one out?
 
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True, but there's a very good chance you earned more than her anyway ;)

For the average female CEO to earn the same as her male counterparts, she would need to work until she was 89.

This may have been tongue-in-cheek, but it is effectively what I am referring to; wilfully ignoring any scenario or situation where a man may be disadvantaged, and purely pursuing the one where the woman is.

I think if you want true gender equality then both "sides" need to be considered and pushed for. This doesnt mean that if there is one area that a man is disadvantaged and fifty where the woman is, that you should spend 50% of your time fighting for that one - but that in practice there are plenty of ways in which both genders suffer from stigmas, stereotypes and bias. In my previous work, I noticed that certain male managers within the business tended to prefer hiring young, attractive females and showed a lot of bias in the recruitment process based on looks, and I bet that goes on on every high street in the country - that is the "ugly" truth (hur hur).

There are other well-cited examples that affect men such as the whole courting process - the man has to "chase" the woman, has to pay for everything. A lot of women I know like it this way, they like to play hard to get and are happy to conform to the (wrong) expectation of society in this area. Throughout pretty much all of school, university, and early working life, women can and do potentially rely on their looks to get ahead.
The "paternity" debate has already been done in this thread but you can throw that in the mix.
Then there are these bizarre reverse-racism/sexism cases like the Rooney Rule, which can be extended to practically all western advertising/marketing - companies feel obliged and pressured to ensure there is a perfectly equal balance of genders, races etc to avoid being seen as racist - but that is for a different thread really.

Basically, modern society is filled with stigmas, stereotypes and sexism/racism in different ways. Yes, it affects some groups more than others, and yes there are things which will affect women but not men. Trying to focus exclusively on improving things for one gender is not, in my opinion, the way to gain support and fix these issues. I suspect that if a lot of feminists abandoned the "Feminism" tag and called themselves "Equalists" instead, and put more emphasis when promoting the movement on equality for both genders, that the movement would gain a lot more male support and would be met with less resistance.
 
Basically, modern society is filled with stigmas, stereotypes and sexism/racism in different ways. Yes, it affects some groups more than others, and yes there are things which will affect women but not men. Trying to focus exclusively on improving things for one gender is not, in my opinion, the way to gain support and fix these issues. I suspect that if a lot of feminists abandoned the "Feminism" tag and called themselves "Equalists" instead, and put more emphasis when promoting the movement on equality for both genders, that the movement would gain a lot more male support and would be met with less resistance.

No thanks.

P.s. You have yet to answer my question as to where you stand on black civil rights activists or gay rights activists or animal rights activists.
 
No thanks.

P.s. You have yet to answer my question as to where you stand on black civil rights activists or gay rights activists or animal rights activists.

And you have yet to acknowledge the other 90% of my posts than the brief sections that you have quoted, lets not nitpick eh?

And the difference is the context. The equivalent of "feminism" (in the form that I have been describing) would not be "animal rights activism", it would be "cows rights activism" - campaigning for/focusing on one type of animal exclusively, rather than all of them.

"Where I stand" on any of these issues is what I have said multiple times, that I believe in equality for all humans, and in my opinion the best way to actually achieve some form of progress to that end is to still campaign, but under the banner of a broader goal, which is equality for everyone.

I am pleased that you enjoy quizzing me so, but if you want to actually engage in some sort of discussion here then I would prefer a bit more input than "No thanks." from your side.
 
You wrote "By definition, if you achieve your goal of equality for women, you will have achieved equality for men (due to the fact that they're now equal...)"

How do you make it out that men are already "equal"? That's the nonsense part.

Well yes, you're completely right, men are not already equal, it is already very unequal in our favour, bar a few things like child custody laws.

If you achieve equality then the things/ groups you have achieved equality between are equal. How is this even debatable? It is in the word.
 
Well yes, you're completely right, men are not already equal, it is already very unequal in our favour, bar a few things like child custody laws.

If you achieve equality then the things/ groups you have achieved equality between are equal. How is this even debatable? It is in the word.

So would you be in favour of reducing womens maternity rights in order to put them on a par with men? This would still achieve equality, but perhaps two wrongs dont always make a right.

There is "equality" and there is also "what is right" - you can achieve equality in any number of ways, but the outcome may still not be right, it may just be equally wrong for both genders. What would be preferable, having things fair for one and unfair for the other, or simply unfair for both?

Equality in itself doesnt make the world a better place, it simply makes it equally good/bad for everyone. Thus in areas such as gender equality, where there are issues that both genders face, I believe that both sides should thus be campaigned for.

If you could conclusively and objectively state that there are no stigmas or injustices that men, or whites, or heterosexuals face (in the latter case this may be true by the way, I am simply using the example) - then you can absolutely focus exclusively on the side(s) which is disadvantaged. This you can probably argue to be the case with LGBT vs hetero; that heterosexuals have it pretty much perfect, and the other sexualities can effectively use that as a benchmark. In gender equality, I dont think you can make the same statements as there are areas where both genders suffer or are disadvantaged.
 
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On the equality thing, Emma Watson is wrong. Women in the 'West' have legal equality, which is a fantastic thing. But the idea that you can legislate for economic and 'social' (whatever that means) equality is ludicrous and pointless. If anything women actually have moved the bar of legal equality quite firmly in their favour with regards to things like children for example.
 
So would you be in favour of reducing womens maternity rights in order to put them on a par with men? This would still achieve equality, but perhaps two wrongs dont always make a right.

There is "equality" and there is also "what is right" - you can achieve equality in any number of ways, but the outcome may still not be right, it may just be equally wrong for both genders. What would be preferable, having things fair for one and unfair for the other, or simply unfair for both?

What are you guys talking about? Why would the thing you jump to be to reduce one group's right?

Reducing women's maternity leave would be a ridiculous move and probably quite harmful to children. Having a certain amount of maternity leave per couple and being able to split it between the couple as they wish would be the far more logical move.
 
What are you guys talking about? Why would the thing you jump to be to reduce one group's right?

Reducing women's maternity leave would be a ridiculous move and probably quite harmful to children. Having a certain amount of maternity leave per couple and being able to split it between the couple as they wish would be the far more logical move.

I added some more to my previous post to try to clarify.

But that is exactly what I mean - there are several ways that you can achieve equality, not all of them will be "right". Of course it would be ridiculous to reduce womens maternity rights to match mens, but it would achieve equality.

This is basically to counter your previous statement where you said

"By definition, if you achieve your goal of equality for women, you will have achieved equality for men (due to the fact that they're now equal...)"

So whilst you are not wrong, achieving equality in that way will not necessarily achieve it with the right result - it may just be equally bad for both, as would be the case with the maternity example. Im simply trying to highlight how that approach is flawed.
 
On the equality thing, Emma Watson is wrong. Women in the 'West' have legal equality, which is a fantastic thing. But the idea that you can legislate for economic and 'social' (whatever that means) equality is ludicrous and pointless. If anything women actually have moved the bar of legal equality quite firmly in their favour with regards to things like children for example.
Well, you can legislate for those things. For example, if a group of lads was to kick the shit out you, calling nigger and dragging you into slavery it would be illegal thanks to people campaigning against those things. Similarly, feminists campaign for us as a society to take things like marital rape more seriously. There is now legislation like the minimum wage, meaning people don't have to work for feck all (even if the minimum wage is quite low) and there are laws against discriminating against people based on gender, skin color sexuality and so on. But they also attempt to educate people, for example it's now widely acknowledged in the UK that racism ain't cool, so when football fans, to pick an example, pretend to be monkeys to mock black players they are given a collective "what the feck?" by society. This kind of education why women have gotten relative (but not yet complete) freedom in their sexuality and why single mothers are no longer forced to have abortions to save the family face. To say you can't change things is utter nonsense and turns a blind eye to pretty much the entirety of human history.
 
I am pleased that you enjoy quizzing me so, but if you want to actually engage in some sort of discussion here then I would prefer a bit more input than "No thanks." from your side.

Ok, no I don't agree with removing the "fem" from "feminism" because it suggests "fem" is a negative...which is kind of the whole point of feminism.

You may look at feminism negatively but it is the reason why I can vote, or own property, or drive, or make my own choices over my own body and some men feeling alienated by it is an unfortunate side effect but that's not feminism's fault. It's not perfect and it certainly has its fair share of idiot "members" but it can't stop. Not with the way the world is right now. And it won't.

If more men embraced the word "feminism" and openly called themselves feminists then maybe the problem would become even more highlighted and, eventually, the need for the movement would fade and we wouldn't need the word anymore.

Right now, all over the world, millions of women are suffering and dying simply because they are women. No other reason. Can you say the same about men? The world needs a movement for women and I'm sorry that you won't get on board.

#heforshe (not even sorry)
 
I don't know, if a Palestinian whose entire family has been killed, a woman who has been raped, whose mother has been raped and daughters have been raped shared a platform with Fathers For Justice do you really think there wouldn't be an odd one out?


Probably Emma Watson, the multi millionaire, who is deeply upset that her friends can't do the sport they want to play because it makes them less attractive to men.

What is the point in a debate like this if you want to talk about extreme cases which no one is disagreeing with?
 
I added some more to my previous post to try to clarify.

But that is exactly what I mean - there are several ways that you can achieve equality, not all of them will be "right". Of course it would be ridiculous to reduce womens maternity rights to match mens, but it would achieve equality.

This is basically to counter your previous statement where you said

"By definition, if you achieve your goal of equality for women, you will have achieved equality for men (due to the fact that they're now equal...)"

So whilst you are not wrong, achieving equality in that way will not necessarily achieve it with the right result - it may just be equally bad for both, as would be the case with the maternity example. Im simply trying to highlight how that approach is flawed.

Sorry, this is such a strange argument, I'm not really sure how to respond.

Has any group fighting for that group's right/ equality ever tried to argue that gaining their rights or achieving equality would happen by making no progress on their own rights but by dragging the other group(s) down to their level and taking their rights away?

And the maternity example is a strawman. Again, how many people argue that taking maternity leave away from women rather than helping increase it for men would be the correct thing to do?
 
Ok, no I don't agree with removing the "fem" from "feminism" because it suggests "fem" is a negative...which is kind of the whole point of feminism.

You may look at feminism negatively but it is the reason why I can vote, or own property, or drive, or make my own choices over my own body and some men feeling alienated by it is an unfortunate side effect but that's not feminism's fault. It's not perfect and it certainly has its fair share of idiot "members" but it can't stop. Not with the way the world is right now. And it won't.

If more men embraced the word "feminism" and openly called themselves feminists then maybe the problem would become even more highlighted and, eventually, the need for the movement would fade and we wouldn't need the word anymore.

Right now, all over the world, millions of women are suffering and dying simply because they are women. No other reason. Can you say the same about men? The world needs a movement for women and I'm sorry that you won't get on board.

#heforshe (not even sorry)

I dont see feminism as negative, but simply as only being one half of the picture. So yes, I believe in improving womens rights and trying to get rid of social stereotypes for women, but I believe in wanting the same thing for men, and therefore to call myself a feminist I feel would be saying that I only want to fight one half of the battle, because the term feminist is as you said earlier - made BY women, FOR women.
 
Sorry, this is such a strange argument, I'm not really sure how to respond.

Has any group fighting for that group's right/ equality ever tried to argue that gaining their rights or achieving equality would happen by making no progress on their own rights but by dragging the other group(s) down to their level and taking their rights away?

And the maternity example is a strawman. Again, how many people argue that taking maternity leave away from women rather than helping increase it for men would be the correct thing to do?

The answer to both of those questions I expect, is none. It was a response to your statement that "achieving equality for women also achieves equality for men".
If you simply give women the exact same situation as what men currently have, then yes, you have equality, but it still isnt right. This is why in my opinion, it is wrong to campaign purely for womens rights/feminism rather than for both genders.

That is the crux of what I was saying, that campaigning for womens rights is (or should be) only part of the picture, not the whole picture.
 
Probably Emma Watson, the multi millionaire, who is deeply upset that her friends can't do the sport they want to play because it makes them less attractive to men.

What is the point in a debate like this if you want to talk about extreme cases which no one is disagreeing with?
When we're being told that feminism should be scrapped in favor of egalitarianism because of parental rights I think it's fine to bring out extreme cases, especially when they're not as rare as we'd like to think.
 
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In what ways are men fighting inequality compared to women?

I have been basically shafted by the courts when it comes to my children in favour of their mother despite her questionable behaviour. If our actions were reversed I would be facing criminal charges and would really struggle to be allowed see my children.
 
When we're being that feminism should be scrapped in favor of egalitarianism because of parental rights I think it's fine to bring out extreme cases, especially when they're not as rare as we'd like to think.

Then you are a distraction because there is nothing I can do about their plight. I think it is a retreat from the point which I would challenge to a point where I would agree with you. What have you won by using that method of argument?
 
Then you are a distraction because there is nothing I can do about their plight. I think it is a retreat from the point which I would challenge to a point where I would agree with you. What have you won by using that method of argument?
Probably as little as anyone using any method of argument on the internet. What's your point? That I should pretend some of the things on here aren't laughable?
 
Bro, this is 2014, not 1920. Women can vote, choose to work if they want to, choose if/when/who they get into relationships with and when they have kids with. So yes, unless the guy has gone all Josef Fritzel on her, the woman is choosing to be in a relationship with domestic violence.

Also what the hell do rape victims have to do with any of this?

Bro, this is 2014 and millions women world wide, hundreds of thousands within Europe, are being abused by their husbands. Women, including my tough as nails mother, who endured this for the sake of their children, for the sake of being financially dependent on their husband, or because they had seen the same in their parents' relationship and thus normalised the abuse. This happens every day in your country and these women are anything but weak. Please visit a women's shelter and return with better insight on the matter. You don't expect victims of other crimes to fight back successfully - why do you do it with victims of domestic abuse?

Rape victims are sometimes also blamed for not resisting more using the same arguments.

Probably Emma Watson, the multi millionaire, who is deeply upset that her friends can't do the sport they want to play because it makes them less attractive to men.

What is the point in a debate like this if you want to talk about extreme cases which no one is disagreeing with?

Or Emma Watson, the multi millionaire who refreshingly takes a stance on one of our major human rights issues which affects half the world's population.
 
Probably as little as anyone using any method of argument on the internet. What's your point? That I should pretend some of the things on here aren't laughable?


No, because some of the things on here are laughable. Why not debate the issue we are disagreeing about rather than the many obvious cases where we would agree. Is that really a lot to ask?

My point in this thread was to ask whether the fact that parental rights are so badly weighted against men might effect their choices about who takes time out of work to look after children and whether in fact it is the predominance of women taking that time out that is causing most of the gender pay gap and that people who want to see change on the gender pay gap could perhaps think about dealing with both issues together rather than banging on one side of the drum all the time.

But hay there are like millions and millions of women who are worse off so lets not bother?
 
No, because some of the things on here are laughable. Why not debate the issue we are disagreeing about rather than the many obvious cases where we would agree. Is that really a lot to ask?

My point in this thread was to ask whether the fact that parental rights are so badly weighted against men might effect their choices about who takes time out of work to look after children and whether in fact it is the predominance of women taking that time out that is causing most of the gender pay gap and that people who want to see change on the gender pay gap could perhaps think about dealing with both issues together rather than banging on one side of the drum all the time.

But hay there are like millions and millions of women who are worse off so lets not bother?
I'm not saying we shouldn't bother. However, rednotdead referred to parental rights as the most important issue, which is clearly bollocks.
 
There are other well-cited examples that affect men such as the whole courting process - the man has to "chase" the woman, has to pay for everything. A lot of women I know like it this way, they like to play hard to get and are happy to conform to the (wrong) expectation of society in this area. Throughout pretty much all of school, university, and early working life, women can and do potentially rely on their looks to get ahead.
The man has to ''chase'' the woman and pay for everything because it's only relatively recently that women have been able to work, and to be able to choose their own relationships. Even now there are countries where women are 'sold' into marriage like cattle.

And only attractive women can rely on their looks to get ahead. But even then, it's not really getting ahead because as soon as those looks start fading they're cast aside for a younger woman. Have you not noticed that there are rarely any older women presenting on TV and it's only recently that it's been brought to attention? I'm sure if you asked the majority of women, they'd prefer it if their looks weren't the main thing they were judged on. Because that's what happens, no matter how accomplished they are, if they're not attractive you can bet it'll be commented on frequently. And you somehow think that a few attractive women being able to get by slightly more easily is an advantage that women have over men? Nope.
 
Sorry but I don't see why the oppressed class needs to pull any punches to dance around the sensitivity of the oppressive class. People who think feminism is anti-men have a victim complex that they need to get over, especially when they (not personally necessarily, though this is often the case) are the oppressers.

Well put.

The man has to ''chase'' the woman and pay for everything because it's only relatively recently that women have been able to work, and to be able to choose their own relationships. Even now there are countries where women are 'sold' into marriage like cattle.

And only attractive women can rely on their looks to get ahead. But even then, it's not really getting ahead because as soon as those looks start fading they're cast aside for a younger woman. Have you not noticed that there are rarely any older women presenting on TV and it's only recently that it's been brought to attention? I'm sure if you asked the majority of women, they'd prefer it if their looks weren't the main thing they were judged on. Because that's what happens, no matter how accomplished they are, if they're not attractive you can bet it'll be commented on frequently. And you somehow think that a few attractive women being able to get by slightly more easily is an advantage that women have over men? Nope.

Thank you, good post.

Every single human rights struggle in history is diminished by the oppressive group. Segregation does not just disappear because of new legislation, after thousands of years of inequality. Few would argue against the fact that women's rights movements were necessary throughout the 19th and 20th centuries, so why do you now when many of the same problems remain?
 
I recently reached my 65th birthday and started receiving my State Pension. A woman born the same day as me has already been receiving her State pension for 5 years.
This is doubly unfair as men die younger.


I've never understood this
 
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This is doubly unfair as men die younger.


I've never understood this
Agree. This needs to be fixed (perhaps give men a few more years above women) along with the examples raised above about access to kids / paternity leave. Aside from these issues us men have it far better than women. One that makes me laugh... My wife didn't take my last name. I've always found it strange that women do. People's reactions have been mixed to say the least.
 
Agree. This needs to be fixed (perhaps give men a few more years above women) along with the examples raised above about access to kids / paternity leave. Aside from these issues us men have it far better than women. One that makes me laugh... My wife didn't take my last name. I've always found it strange that women do. People's reactions have been mixed to say the least.

I wouldn't expect a woman to take my name, especially as mine is so boring. Hell if she had an awesome last name if consider taking hers.
 
I wouldn't expect a woman to take my name, especially as mine is so boring. Hell if she had an awesome last name if consider taking hers.
People look at me as if I'm nuts when I said I don't care. A few people I know have said they wouldn't marry a woman if she didn't take his name. Just bizarre IMHO. I want to spend the rest of my life with you but only if you take my name.
 
I've been reading up on this silly "Gamergate" thing after seeing this story http://edition.cnn.com/2014/10/03/tech/gaming-gadgets/intel-ad-gamasutra/ and because someone mentioned Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian earlier (or perhaps in another, similar thread) as examples of terrible feminism. It's genuinely mental. To be honest I couldn't find anything those girls had done that was particualrly bad, and certainly nothing approaching what they'd been subjected to in response. It's amazing that the so called 'male' side think they come out of it at all well, or are fighting some kind of noble crusade. So far it seems bullying, intimidation, ranting about ex-girlfriends and spreading their personal info, consistent rape threats and organised attacks on advertisers have all been used to silence a tiny minority of their own community who differ from them, and have had the temerity to....erm...write about it. Yeah, way to go guys! What fecking heroes.

This is why it's still an issue in the Western World. Because hoards of privileged white males still act like virginal teenagers sent to their rooms when confronted with any change to their status quo. No matter how pathetically inconsequential it is. It's all very Elliot Rodger.
 
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It's certainly true that I wouldn't react to a girl hitting a guy in the same way I would to a guy hitting a girl. Not sure what that really says though.