Ed Woodward 2019 - Until all Arctic ice melts edition

[Kag]

Why are you ignoring what happened from 25th January to the summer window?

• What about the Sevilla shit show? Woeful result and then Jose added insult (literally) to injury by undermining the club and praising himself and living off of former glories from nearly a decade prior.
• What about Jose publicly admitting he couldn't motivate the players 2-3 games on the bounce around April to May?
• What about his very public support and demands that Fellaini be rewarded a new contract? Pay rise and all? See this example right here shows support from Ed to Jose, but all you hear is, Ed over ruled Jose. Basically if he supports him, he's wrong. If he doesn't he's wrong.
• What about his very public temper tantrums the minute the summer tour kicked off where he told supporters not to attend matches?

All this prior to any fall out over Centre half demands.

But to add to the centre half demands, he got 2 new centre halves which he basically ignored and continually chose the old school duo of Smalling & Jones over his own investments, but what makes it more hilarious is the fact he sold Blind!

Thanks to his own choice of scout (Ribalta) walking 1 year into his job at United, he was left with options of flavor of the month (Maguire at mind boggling prices) and short term option (Alderwerield, also expensive at 70m).

You like soooo many others cherry pick tid bits of situations without truly analyzing them and the events leading up to what actually happened.

Jose engineered a pay off its that simple.



Feck sake

Conspiracy theories now is it?

Look he's made mistakes, but we've an army of supporters blaming him for things that don't fall under his job spec.

He's been blamed for our on field woes, how utterly stupid is that? The exact opposite of that is like praising Martin Edwards for the Treble. Should we erect a statue of Edwards outside OT now then like Fergie got one?

You’re generally a beacon of sense throughout this thread. Well said @Keefy18

 

[the chameleon]

Why are you ignoring what happened from 25th January to the summer window?

• What about the Sevilla shit show? Woeful result and then Jose added insult (literally) to injury by undermining the club and praising himself and living off of former glories from nearly a decade prior.
• What about Jose publicly admitting he couldn't motivate the players 2-3 games on the bounce around April to May?
• What about his very public support and demands that Fellaini be rewarded a new contract? Pay rise and all? See this example right here shows support from Ed to Jose, but all you hear is, Ed over ruled Jose. Basically if he supports him, he's wrong. If he doesn't he's wrong.
• What about his very public temper tantrums the minute the summer tour kicked off where he told supporters not to attend matches?

All this prior to any fall out over Centre half demands.

But to add to the centre half demands, he got 2 new centre halves which he basically ignored and continually chose the old school duo of Smalling & Jones over his own investments, but what makes it more hilarious is the fact he sold Blind!

Thanks to his own choice of scout (Ribalta) walking 1 year into his job at United, he was left with options of flavor of the month (Maguire at mind boggling prices) and short term option (Alderwerield, also expensive at 70m).

You like soooo many others cherry pick tid bits of situations without truly analyzing them and the events leading up to what actually happened.

Jose engineered a pay off its that simple.



Feck sake

Conspiracy theories now is it?

Look he's made mistakes, but we've an army of supporters blaming him for things that don't fall under his job spec.

He's been blamed for our on field woes, how utterly stupid is that? The exact opposite of that is like praising Martin Edwards for the Treble. Should we erect a statue of Edwards outside OT now then like Fergie got one?

Not everything is painted black and white. The CEOs responsibilities were less on the football side back in the 90s. Ferguson was a once in a lifetime manager. Fergie took on a lot of the responsibilities that Woodward has. That is a rare case. Even then, Martin Edwards vetoed many moves. But Fergie dealt with cards he had.

Unfortunately, you can’t give a manager this kind of responsibility from the get go in the modern game. Especially, not to an unproven manager like Ole who has already failed in the Premiership and Championship.

No. He’s not directly responsible for our midfield woes. He’s responsible for hiring him the people who fix those midfield woes. He’s responsible for the structure that finds and attracts players that solve our on field woes. He’s responsible for delegating his responsibilities were to more capable people who specialise in those areas. But he’s failed in this area.

When you’re CEO of an organisation, it’s your responsible for building the corporate structure, setting the business goals and objectives (in football and marketing and money). As he’s in a business called football, it’s him who has the final say. If he hires the wrong people and the results don’t come, on micro level we blame the players, the manager and the weather. But on a macro level, there is someone who is responsible for overseeing everything. Building an environment where results happen. In football and especially at a club like United, this is winning trophies.

On a macro level (because that’s we judge him on), he’s failed for 6 STRAIGHT YEARS. With the biggest club in the world. Hired the wrong people. Built the wrong structure. He’s allowed rivals with less money than us to overtake us.

So, yes Woodward is a failure. A macro level failure. Which is far worse than micro level failures like our managers and players.

 

[The Irish Connection]

Yes he should have said we aspire to be Man City or we are far behind other clubs and our players are crap

Or just say nothing.

 

[fallengt]

Woowar's job including but not limited to finance. As a CEO he should build a platform for managers to success and he's failed to do so for 3 managers. Three managers in a row, that was not bad luck, it was just plain bad.

Our football in the past few years has been over the places. If we had a Transfer committee with a plan, no way we would have signed Lukaku to play longball then changed our mind in next season. Mourinho got rid 70% of the squad because he wanted his team to sit back and defend now Ole's selling them because he doesn't like the fact that they don't run. Does it sound like our CEO have a plan when he hires new manager?

 

[Sterling Archer]

@Kag @Keefy18 you are defending Woodward as blindly as those defending Jose. It's the other extreme and as is usually the case with polarity, furthest from reality

@the chameleon is right on here...
The managers failed their duties because of themselves
The CEO has failed his duties because of himself

Woodward got it dirty. Coming in with no football background he couldn't leverage previous experienced staff because Moyes came in and extirpated them all. So Woody had to do it on his own. Yeah you could defend him by saying he keeps trying but the fact is a CEO is most successful when he hires the right people around his or herself and then listens to them! That's on Woody. He hires the wrong managers with philosophy that differed from United which he was fully aware of as per interviews. He also has still declined to hire a DOF or any other football expert to help his decision making. If it worked out and we were in a good place credit to Woody. But we're not. It's shambles. Not because a man with no football background is running things. It's because he isn't getting or listening to the advice of the appropriately experiences folks and instead doing it his own egomaniacal and shitty way.

Macro micro destructive

 

[dev1l]

There are some similarities with the (in)famous Moysey summer, this year.
Mainly change of manager in the latter part of the season and no DOF (hence no recruitment strategy) in place.
Most negotiations on transfers (mostly big Ones) start 6 months or more before the actual transfer takes place.
So most probably, we are already late.
Maybe that s why the delay with James transfer...cause we have nothing else in the pipeline.
I won't be surprised if we end up with a couple of Real rejects in the end..

 

[Chesterlestreet]

The obvious difference between now and the Moyes summer is that we’re in an official crisis at the moment. The manager himself knows, and has recognized publicly, that there’s a big job to be done in order to close the gap.

Regardless of what one thinks about anyone’s competence, it would be extremely odd if things weren’t worked on with considerable urgency.

 

[Johan07]

@Kag @Keefy18 you are defending Woodward as blindly as those defending Jose. It's the other extreme and as is usually the case with polarity, furthest from reality

@the chameleon is right on here...
The managers failed their duties because of themselves
The CEO has failed his duties because of himself

Woodward got it dirty. Coming in with no football background he couldn't leverage previous experienced staff because Moyes came in and extirpated them all. So Woody had to do it on his own. Yeah you could defend him by saying he keeps trying but the fact is a CEO is most successful when he hires the right people around his or herself and then listens to them! That's on Woody. He hires the wrong managers with philosophy that differed from United which he was fully aware of as per interviews. He also has still declined to hire a DOF or any other football expert to help his decision making. If it worked out and we were in a good place credit to Woody. But we're not. It's shambles. Not because a man with no football background is running things. It's because he isn't getting or listening to the advice of the appropriately experiences folks and instead doing it his own egomaniacal and shitty way.

Macro micro destructive

Does anyone understand this post?

 

[Johan07]

Woowar's job including but not limited to finance. As a CEO he should build a platform for managers to success and he's failed to do so for 3 managers. Three managers in a row, that was not bad luck, it was just plain bad.

Our football in the past few years has been over the places. If we had a Transfer committee with a plan, no way we would have signed Lukaku to play longball then changed our mind in next season. Mourinho got rid 70% of the squad because he wanted his team to sit back and defend now Ole's selling them because he doesn't like the fact that they don't run. Does it sound like our CEO have a plan when he hires new manager?

Are you including OGS in those three managers?
Fact is that Gill appointed Moyes and put him on a six year contract.
When Moyes turned out to be crap; say finally February/March 2014 and the Bayern loss in the CL; Woodward had been CEO for approx just 8 months. His first major decision would be to sack the manager that his legendary predecessor appointed and put on a 6 year contract. And he had like 3 months to find a replacement when most of the big name managers were not available.
I have a hard time to blame him for the Van Gaal appointment tbh. If anyone should be blamed, that was actually some kind of plan at least. I dont think he took that decision either without major input from Gill and Ferguson (who then were on the advisory board), including the decision to sack Moyes.
For me Woodwards major fault as CEO regarding the footballing side was that he signed off on the appointment of Mourinho.
For all the reasons that have been argued in numerous threads. At the same time it was something that probably 90 percent of the fanbase supported back then. Hindsight is easy.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

You could say – rightly – that both the LVG and the Mourinho decisions made sense in isolation. It’s also quite true that a majority of the fans were happy with both appointments.

However, you could also put it like this: hiring LVG followed by Mourinho only makes sense in the absence of any long term plan for the club.

And not having a long term plan is simply damnable. There’s no way around that one.

Look no further than the recently published LVG interview. When United approached him about the job, he wasn’t asked a single question about what kind of football he intended to play. As if it didn’t matter to those ultimately responsible for both performances (entertainment for paying customers, one could call it) and results what brand of football the man they’re about to give a three year contract prefers.

The saddest part is that this sort of revelation isn’t even shocking anymore – it’s par for the course.

 

[fallengt]

Are you including OGS in those three managers?
Fact is that Gill appointed Moyes and put him on a six year contract.
When Moyes turned out to be crap; say finally February/March 2014 and the Bayern loss in the CL; Woodward had been CEO for approx just 8 months. His first major decision would be to sack the manager that his legendary predecessor appointed and put on a 6 year contract. And he had like 3 months to find a replacement when most of the big name managers were not available.
I have a hard time to blame him for the Van Gaal appointment tbh. If anyone should be blamed, that was actually some kind of plan at least. I dont think he took that decision either without major input from Gill and Ferguson (who then were on the advisory board), including the decision to sack Moyes.
For me Woodwards major fault as CEO regarding the footballing side was that he signed off on the appointment of Mourinho.
For all the reasons that have been argued in numerous threads. At the same time it was something that probably 90 percent of the fanbase supported back then. Hindsight is easy.

LvG has bad track record of signing players, this is known.
Jose will throw the towels if things ain't going his way. This is known

Whatever happened at LvG & Mourinho's previous clubs happened at United too. Many things could have prevented or wouldn't turn out to be so bad if Woodward had done his homework on the personalities he was going to work with. He just let managers figured it out by themselves until everyone and their dog knew shit just wasn't going to stick.

By the time of their second season, some of our fans could notice they were the bomb that going to explode because the working environment at United provoking their flaws. It wasn't hindsight at all.

If you're the CEO and can't control your employees. It's your fault.

 

[Johan07]

You could say – rightly – that both the LVG and the Mourinho decisions made sense in isolation. It’s also quite true that a majority of the fans were happy with both appointments.

However, you could also put it like this: hiring LVG followed by Mourinho only makes sense in the absence of any long term plan for the club.

And not having a long term plan is simply damnable. There’s no way around that one.

Look no further than the recently published LVG interview. When United approached him about the job, he wasn’t asked a single question about what kind of football he intended to play. As if it didn’t matter to those ultimately responsible for both performances (entertainment for paying customers, one could call it) and results what brand of football the man they’re about to give a three year contract prefers.

The saddest part is that this sort of revelation isn’t even shocking anymore – it’s par for the course.

I agree, but I would still say that there was some kind of plan when LvG was appointed. We have revamped both our scouting and youth setup since then. In a major way. It was under LvG that the idea of a DoF was starting to be floated around as well which is well in line with his interview.
For me its pretty obvious that the club was moving on to a more progressive setup, until results and football started to go south under LvG. So far so good IMO (not really, but you get my point). We should have continued on that road.
Instead we appointed Mourinho who was completely against a DoF, had a negative attitude to our scouting network and more or less wanted to run everything himself old-school Sir Alex style.
That decision (to appoint Mourinho) is the strangest for me considering that we had put in some effort by then to change the club´s structure. It set us back a couple of years and undid some of the positive work that was being done under LvG organizationally.
I hope we will get back to that now. The next two years are going to be very important.

 

[UncleBob]

LvG has bad track record of signing players, this is known.
Jose will throw the towels if things ain't going his way. This is known

Whatever happened at LvG & Mourinho's previous clubs happened at United too. All things could have prevented or wouldn't turn out to be so bad if Woodward had done his homework on the personalities he was going to work with. He just let managers figured it out by themselves until everyone and their dog knew shit just wasn't going to stick.

By the time of their second season, some of our fans could notice they were the bomb that going to explode because the working environment at United provoking their flaws. It wasn't hindsight at all.

If you're the CEO and can't control your employees. It's your fault.

How did the working environment at United trigger Mourinho's flaws ?

 

[Johan07]

LvG has bad track record of signing players, this is known.
Jose will throw the towels if things ain't going his way. This is known

Whatever happened at LvG & Mourinho's previous clubs happened at United too. All things could have prevented or wouldn't turn out to be so bad if Woodward had done his homework on the personalities he was going to work with. He just let managers figured it out by themselves until everyone and their dog knew shit just wasn't going to stick.

By the time of their second season, some of our fans could notice they were the bomb that going to explode because the working environment at United provoking their flaws. It wasn't hindsight at all.

If you're the CEO and can't control your employees. It's your fault.

LvG has bad track record of signing players, this is known.
Jose will throw the towels if things ain't going his way. This is known

Whatever happened at LvG & Mourinho's previous clubs happened at United too. All things could have prevented or wouldn't turn out to be so bad if Woodward had done his homework on the personalities he was going to work with. He just let managers figured it out by themselves until everyone and their dog knew shit just wasn't going to stick.

By the time of their second season, some of our fans could notice they were the bomb that going to explode because the working environment at United provoking their flaws. It wasn't hindsight at all.

If you're the CEO and can't control your employees. It's your fault.

I am sorry, but if your opinion is that a CEO should be a dictator I disagree with you completely. If anything its his job to delegate as effectively as possible. Which Woodward has done. And I dont buy this accountibility argument. And somehow its just applicable to the CEO at United.
I dont see ABU-media or even Arsenal-fans crying for the head of Vinai Venkatesham. Because the CEO has very little influence on the footballing side of things. This obsession with Woodward is based on people not knowing what a CEO really does.

 

[fallengt]

How did the working environment at United trigger Mourinho's flaws ?

Read the last summer window threads. I ain't going to list it.
Mourinho whined more than usual on the first day of our tour even on minor thing like Martial's parental leave. Our PR spoke person tand him contradicted each others. That was the first sign.

 

[Johan07]

Read the last summer window threads. I ain't going to list it.
Mourinho whined more than usual on the first day of our tour even on minor thing like Martial's parental leave. That was the first sign.

So you are blaming that on Woodward? There is just one person responsible for the "working enviroment" at Unted beginning of last year and that is Mourinho himself.

 

[UncleBob]

Read the last summer window threads. I ain't going to list it.
Mourinho whined more than usual on the first day of our tour even on minor thing like Martial's parental leave. Our PR spoke person tand him contradicted each others. That was the first sign.

And that was all a product of Woodward ? Impressive

 

[Pavl3n]

We are currently like the kid who has all the lego blocks he needs but doesn't know how to build the structure. I don't expect a coherent transfer policy with Ed at the helm, but there is always a chance that by fluke, we end up having a successful summer and hence a very good season, which would spur our efforts to get back to the top. A fluke whereby we get most things right is basically what we can hope for, I assume it should happen sometime by the law of averages.

I'm still waiting on my clothes to come folded out of the drier, given the law of averages, so I wouldn't bet my house on it.
But yes, your comparison is quite accurate.
It's quite obvious we need to build a team.
And nothing built happens overnight.

It's not the waiting of a team being built is what worries me. It's the direction we are going in, is what worries me more. We are not getting a DoF this summer, which means Ole's in charge of the football side of the club. So if the board want to stop all this merry go round, they need to stand by his side and look in the same direction. Unlike with Mourinho's spell - get Jose the toys he wants. They need to understand it's a process of two or three seasons before we could mount a challenge.
I'm afraid that not only the board, but a lot of the fans will not have the patience to stand by him and he'll be gone before he can develop his ideas. And I'm sure he has great ideas and views how to revive the club.
I like his approach of young and hungry British talent. You need your core players to be playing for the shirt, to be playing for the trophies and be competitive and the paycheck to compliment their effort, rather than playing, because they're getting paid.

If Ed stands by Ole and lets him develop his vision - I'll be happy with no DoF. Because Ole breathes United and lives United, so he would want the very best for the club, even though he's not as qualified as some would want him to be. He would give his best effort.
But if Ole's booted, before getting the chance to develop his ideas and there's no DoF, then it will be clear that Ed has absolutely no clue what needs to be done and that should be the tipping point.

 

[JPRouve]

You could say – rightly – that both the LVG and the Mourinho decisions made sense in isolation. It’s also quite true that a majority of the fans were happy with both appointments.

However, you could also put it like this: hiring LVG followed by Mourinho only makes sense in the absence of any long term plan for the club.

And not having a long term plan is simply damnable. There’s no way around that one.

Look no further than the recently published LVG interview. When United approached him about the job, he wasn’t asked a single question about what kind of football he intended to play. As if it didn’t matter to those ultimately responsible for both performances (entertainment for paying customers, one could call it) and results what brand of football the man they’re about to give a three year contract prefers.

The saddest part is that this sort of revelation isn’t even shocking anymore – it’s par for the course.

Subjectively I agree with everything you said because I believe that it's easier for an organization to follow a philosophy instead of simply seeking success for success. But the truth is that a large part of the fan base and people in football do not care about football philosophies, they care about bottom lines whether these are trophies or money, we are not Ajax, the old Dynamo Kiev or Barcelona. Now when you look at United's history, the club doesn't have a philosophy, there is the Sir Matt Busby way and the Sir Alex Ferguson way, outside of it the club has mainly been a shamble, so it makes total sense that the manager isn't asked the kind of football he intends to play, this football club has never been built around that type of considerations, the only mainstay is promoting academy players.

Now remember the multiple conversations that we have had on the caf, a lot of posters are against the restructuring of the club and the idea of trying to build an actual "United way" that would be linked with the club more than the manager because they believe that success relies on the manager having all the power and the club just being a vessel. Now we see people upset because the club doesn't really stand on its legs which is a direct consequence of that idea, I love the history of the club that's what made me fan of it but the club itself is as hollow as it gets, it's a bare bone structure that is supposed to be filled by its manager when the manager isn't up to that particular job we are in big trouble.

 

[fallengt]

And that was all a product of Woodward ? Impressive

There is a pattern in every sack. All started with Mourinho disagreeing with the higher up. When he hadn't been back in 2018 summer he started Herrera as centreback in our new season to send a message. You could figure it out there was discontent between Mourinho and Woodward.

We were told Mourinho's third season syndrome was myth, turned out it wasn't. It was mostly Mourinho being Mourinho but Woodward shouldnt have half-ass ing his effort (either back him or let him go) and let Mourinho's personality slide. Like I said if CEO knows he can't control employees, don't hire them in the first place.

 

[UncleBob]

There is a pattern in every sack. All started with Mourinho disagreeing with the higher up. When he hadn't been back in 2018 summer he started Herrera as centreback in our new season to send a message. You could figure it out there was discontent between Mourinho and Woodward.

We were told Mourinho's third season syndrome was myth, turned out it wasn't. It was mostly Mourinho being Mourinho but Woodward shouldnt have half-ass ing his effort (either back him or let him go) and let Mourinho's personality slide. Like I said if CEO knows he can't control employees, don't hire them in the first place.

So all you essentially end up Is that he shouldn't have been hired on the first place, not that his antics towards the end was a result of some sort of environment at United.

 

[Johan07]

There is a pattern in every sack. All started with Mourinho disagreeing with the higher up. When he hadn't been back in 2018 summer he started Herrera as centreback in our new season to send a message. You could figure it out there was discontent between Mourinho and Woodward.

We were told Mourinho's third season syndrome was myth, turned out it wasn't. It was mostly Mourinho being Mourinho but Woodward shouldnt have half-ass ing his effort (either back him or let him go) and let Mourinho's personality slide. Like I said if CEO knows he can't control employees, don't hire them in the first place.

Its no ones fault but Mourinhos own that he did not get a new CB that summer. He burned his wage budget for the summer early on Sanchez. Then with Fred and the new contract for Fellaini there was no more waggle room for wages. He could have let Fellaini walk. And/or gotten rid of some other players and he would have gotten his new CB plaything. That has nothing to do with Woodward. You cant expect more from the owners and the CEO than that they are providing the biggest wage budget in the PL. which we were then and still is. What the manager chooses to do with it is on him.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

Good post - problem is you're asking people to apply some basic interpretation and analysis. Most people on here can only understand simple 'good versus evil', 'yes/no' and/or 'either/or' type arguments.

I've made the same point elsewhere - we HAVE had record revenue growth under the Glazers and Ed.....but HOW does this compare with our rivals and what specifically have THEY done to bring about this increase?

Look up a book called 'Fooled by Randomness'....it makes me feel better to know there are at least a few others out there who are not blinded by basic slight-of-hand and lazy rhetoric

Same as performing worse than the stock index on average? Meaning "average value of football has increased more in % than the value/revenue of this club?

While I do strongly agree that increasing the revenue and value of the club, in the manner Woody has, should not be appauded as some ingenious feat. When our club is the one with the lowest growth% of the clubs that matters, then something is wrong. On the other hand, it should also be noted that we were way more commercialized compared to the other clubs, so the commercialization was more saturated at UTD.

 

[Lentwood]

Same as performing worse than the stock index on average? Meaning "average value of football has increased more in % than the value/revenue of this club?

While I do strongly agree that increasing the revenue and value of the club, in the manner Woody has, should not be appauded as some ingenious feat. When our club is the one with the lowest growth% of the clubs that matters, then something is wrong. On the other hand, it should also be noted that we were way more commercialized compared to the other clubs, so the commercialization was more saturated at UTD.

Yes and that's also good analysis and good interpretation of Data i.e. if we are ALREADY more 'commercialised' than our rivals, we have less scope to grow (in theory). You could counter this by saying did we not, therefore, have a platform already in-place upon which we should be able to really accelerate growth, since we are already ahead of the competition - BUT, I don't claim to be an expert in the finance and marketing strategies of football clubs. I only know that Utd's revenues and profitability haven't increased in isolation so it's far, far, far too simplistic (and in fact downright stupid) to say 'revenue has gone up under Ed/Glazers ergo they have been good for the club commercially'

 

[Fosu-Mens]

Yes and that's also good analysis and good interpretation of Data i.e. if we are ALREADY more 'commercialised' than our rivals, we have less scope to grow (in theory). You could counter this by saying did we not, therefore, have a platform already in-place upon which we should be able to really accelerate growth, since we are already ahead of the competition - BUT, I don't claim to be an expert in the finance and marketing strategies of football clubs. I only know that Utd's revenues and profitability haven't increased in isolation so it's far, far, far too simplistic (and in fact downright stupid) to say 'revenue has gone up under Ed/Glazers ergo they have been good for the club commercially'

Especially since most of the increase in revenue is due to external factors like increase in EPL-TV£££ and footballs global growth. Similar to when someone makes a shoot, then it deflects on you. Technically it is your goal, but you did not do shit to create it.

As for the whole "BLAME GAME discussion" on wether, it is Woody, owners, players or the managers" who are to blame? Due to the lack of transparency at the club, we simply cannot know who makes what decisions. Did Mourinho sign Fred, or was it, Woody. Or the owners? People are arguing about an issue that should be treated as a "black box problem". For all we know, Woodward might be micromanaged by the owners, needing to call them for every little decision, or the managers might have been given free rein to every decision. People on here can theorize what is wrong or right, but in the end, we cannot know for sure. The only thing we can safely say is that what they (whomever they may be) have been doing for the last 6 years is not working.

 

[oz insomniac]

If the Woodward/Glazer reign was so good, then why are we looking at players like DeLigt prepared to turn ManUtd down and look like being more prepared to sign for Liverpool than probably accept more cash if they signed for Utd. The reason is solely the sh*t heap we have become in the last season or so, and the bloated overpaid very average team that is still on the books.

At the helm of the Titanic like side has been the indomitable Ed Woodward, and it doesn't look like getting any better. If you accept mediocre recruitment then he's your man, undoubted.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Now when you look at United's history, the club doesn't have a philosophy, there is the Sir Matt Busby way and the Sir Alex Ferguson way, outside of it the club has mainly been a shamble, so it makes total sense that the manager isn't asked the kind of football he intends to play, this football club has never been built around that type of considerations, the only mainstay is promoting academy players.

Yes - I don't disagree with that, and made pretty much the same point the other day in another thread.

But what this means is that no manager (or DoF) can fall back on a comprehensive "philosophy" which is already in place and only needs updating - it doesn't mean the club shouldn't aim to install a long term plan (for recruitment, mainly) that goes beyond whoever the manager is at any given time.

When SAF stepped down, that was the logical time to do this. Everyone and his granny knew his departure would mean a vacuum of sorts which it would be incredibly difficult for one man (the new manager) to fill all by himself.

 

[JPRouve]

Yes - I don't disagree with that, and made pretty much the same point the other day in another thread.

But what this means is that no manager (or DoF) can fall back on a comprehensive "philosophy" which is already in place and only needs updating - it doesn't mean the club shouldn't aim to install a long term plan (for recruitment, mainly) that goes beyond whoever the manager is at any given time.

When SAF stepped down, that was the logical time to do this. Everyone and his granny knew his departure would mean a vacuum of sorts which it would be incredibly difficult for one man (the new manager) to fill all by himself.

That's why I think that cowardice is the driving force of the boards mistakes, even though I acknowledge that it's a very harsh term. Butt and the DOF should have been hired at the same time and the head coach should have been their exclusive decision because the philosophy of the club needs to come from the academy, that's where we are supposed to create the players that will match it the most. The head coach is just the driver, he isn't the chief engineer/mechanics.

The board could fix most of our issues without knowing a thing about football, Butt is seemingly very competent when it comes to the academy so he is the football man to follow, just ask him what type of football and players he wants to develop and bring a DOF that has the same vision. We don't need to rush and absolutely find the perfect head coach or first eleven, we just need to have Butt and ideally a couple of other directors that are on the same page then you let them pick the head coach and players that suit them.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

We should have continued on that road.

I would have been okay, or at least okay-ish, with that myself.

But the apparent plan would've meant going with LVG for a final season - and then Giggs.

If performances/results hadn't improved dramatically, it would've been an extremely unpopular decision. Giggs (if he was indeed the intended successor - and there's good reasons for thinking that he was) would've been under immense pressure from day one, worse than what Ole has to deal with now, I'd say.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Butt and the DOF should have been hired at the same time and the head coach should have been their exclusive decision because the philosophy of the club needs to come from the academy, that's where we are supposed to create the players that will match it the most.

Absolutely - yes.

It does seem that Butt's role has become more central recently, though: according to rumours, he's working closely with Ole, giving input on the recruitment side. If true, that's good news in my opinion.

I've said this before, but if an actual strategy is now forming, which entails United going systematically for younger targets, "hungry" players, and a clearer focus on trying to bring through talent already at the club - I'm behind this 100% regardless of whether Ole himself turns out to be out of his depth.

I'm even behind the rumoured preference for players who have come through the English youth system. British talents are of a much higher quality these days than they were some years ago. If a nation produces genuine talents, it makes perfect sense for top clubs in that nation to go for them, specifically. It's not dinosaurish at all - it's what top clubs have always done, and what United did too when we were an actual top club.

 

[1988]

Why are you ignoring what happened from 25th January to the summer window?

• What about the Sevilla shit show? Woeful result and then Jose added insult (literally) to injury by undermining the club and praising himself and living off of former glories from nearly a decade prior.
• What about Jose publicly admitting he couldn't motivate the players 2-3 games on the bounce around April to May?
• What about his very public support and demands that Fellaini be rewarded a new contract? Pay rise and all? See this example right here shows support from Ed to Jose, but all you hear is, Ed over ruled Jose. Basically if he supports him, he's wrong. If he doesn't he's wrong.
• What about his very public temper tantrums the minute the summer tour kicked off where he told supporters not to attend matches?

All this prior to any fall out over Centre half demands.

But to add to the centre half demands, he got 2 new centre halves which he basically ignored and continually chose the old school duo of Smalling & Jones over his own investments, but what makes it more hilarious is the fact he sold Blind!

Thanks to his own choice of scout (Ribalta) walking 1 year into his job at United, he was left with options of flavor of the month (Maguire at mind boggling prices) and short term option (Alderwerield, also expensive at 70m).

You like soooo many others cherry pick tid bits of situations without truly analyzing them and the events leading up to what actually happened.

Jose engineered a pay off its that simple.

Who hired one of the most toxic managers to begin with? Mourinho's track record wasn't a secret we all knew he was a turd.

 

[Keefy18]

You’re generally a beacon of sense throughout this thread. Well said @Keefy18

Cheers! I do try add a little bit of sense into precedings.

Not everything is painted black and white. The CEOs responsibilities were less on the football side back in the 90s. Ferguson was a once in a lifetime manager. Fergie took on a lot of the responsibilities that Woodward has. That is a rare case. Even then, Martin Edwards vetoed many moves. But Fergie dealt with cards he had.

Unfortunately, you can’t give a manager this kind of responsibility from the get go in the modern game. Especially, not to an unproven manager like Ole who has already failed in the Premiership and Championship.

No. He’s not directly responsible for our midfield woes. He’s responsible for hiring him the people who fix those midfield woes. He’s responsible for the structure that finds and attracts players that solve our on field woes. He’s responsible for delegating his responsibilities were to more capable people who specialise in those areas. But he’s failed in this area.

When you’re CEO of an organisation, it’s your responsible for building the corporate structure, setting the business goals and objectives (in football and marketing and money). As he’s in a business called football, it’s him who has the final say. If he hires the wrong people and the results don’t come, on micro level we blame the players, the manager and the weather. But on a macro level, there is someone who is responsible for overseeing everything. Building an environment where results happen. In football and especially at a club like United, this is winning trophies.

On a macro level (because that’s we judge him on), he’s failed for 6 STRAIGHT YEARS. With the biggest club in the world. Hired the wrong people. Built the wrong structure. He’s allowed rivals with less money than us to overtake us.

So, yes Woodward is a failure. A macro level failure. Which is far worse than micro level failures like our managers and players.

I do agree about Fergie, he was all encompassing.

Fact is though Woodward gave similar freedom to his main 2 appointments thus far in LVG and Jose.

Both LVG & Jose were given their own choice of coaches, Jose his own head of scouting as well. Jose refused a DoF, Which Ed didn't force on him and has only begun searching in recent months. Would you prefer Ed over rule Jose in that instance? Now remember, the meltdowns over the center half fall out.

So, he's hired the best 2 possible candidates at times of seeking a new manager and given them pretty much complete and utter freedom bar minimal instances and left them to do as they see fit on the football side. If they fail its on them.

But, the vast majority of our robotic supporters just drone out cliched tabloid nonsense about Ed "over ruling" managers?

He's in a lose, lose situation. If he dares challenge the manager (Fellaini renewal?, DoF?) we get idiots like Gary Nev with his baseless rants about "once you say no to a manager then you've lost them" nonsense.

Don't folks want a DoF? Jose turned it down, why aren't our supporters instead giving Jose grief over it and slowing down the modernized restructure we so badly need?

Ed's in a situation where he loses every which way.

If he supports the manager (like he has) you say he's hired the wrong manager. When he's dared offer up resistance (Fellaini) or alternate ideas (DoF) he's also wrong.

@Kag @Keefy18 you are defending Woodward as blindly as those defending Jose. It's the other extreme and as is usually the case with polarity, furthest from reality

@the chameleon is right on here...
The managers failed their duties because of themselves
The CEO has failed his duties because of himself

Woodward got it dirty. Coming in with no football background he couldn't leverage previous experienced staff because Moyes came in and extirpated them all. So Woody had to do it on his own. Yeah you could defend him by saying he keeps trying but the fact is a CEO is most successful when he hires the right people around his or herself and then listens to them! That's on Woody. He hires the wrong managers with philosophy that differed from United which he was fully aware of as per interviews. He also has still declined to hire a DOF or any other football expert to help his decision making. If it worked out and we were in a good place credit to Woody. But we're not. It's shambles. Not because a man with no football background is running things. It's because he isn't getting or listening to the advice of the appropriately experiences folks and instead doing it his own egomaniacal and shitty way.

Macro micro destructive

Who hired one of the most toxic managers to begin with? Mourinho's track record wasn't a secret we all knew he was a turd.

Sterling, I've no idea what half of this is about but I'll give it a bash

What football background have the other top 5 CEO's got? It's practically non existent I've already mentioned this on a previous page.

Soriano, Moore, Levy, Venkatesham & Laurence football experience consists of one working for a sports manufacturer and another being a supporter of the club he's now at. Their experience is steeped in accounting, business and economics!

By an large they are not "football men".

Moyes was hired by Fergie / Gill. Now to do with Ed.

You both mention he hires the wrong managers, yet ignore the fact the you most like demanded Jose be hired 3 years ago. It's complete revisionist bollicks (about as polite as I can be) from our fan base who are now pretending they never wanted Jose and he was inherently the wrong choice.

Spurs fans aren't calling for Levy's head really at any point are they? Don't tell me its cause they are going in the right direction, they weren't calling for his head pre Poch arrival when they were smack bang mid table.

As Johan says above, why aren't Arsenal supporters calling for their CEO's head (Venkatesham)? How about Chelsea with Laurence?

We've a weird bunch of supporters in our midst who completely fall for tabloid rubbish without doing the slightest bit of research for themselves.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Cheers! I do try add a little bit of sense into precedings.



I do agree about Fergie, he was all encompassing.

Fact is though Woodward gave similar freedom to his main 2 appointments thus far in LVG and Jose.

Both LVG & Jose were given their own choice of coaches, Jose his own head of scouting as well. Jose refused a DoF, Which Ed didn't force on him and has only begun searching in recent months. Would you prefer Ed over rule Jose in that instance? Now remember, the meltdowns over the center half fall out.

So, he's hired the best 2 possible candidates at times of seeking a new manager and given them pretty much complete and utter freedom bar minimal instances and left them to do as they see fit on the football side. If they fail its on them.

But, the vast majority of our robotic supporters just drone out cliched tabloid nonsense about Ed "over ruling" managers?

He's in a lose, lose situation. If he dares challenge the manager (Fellaini renewal?, DoF?) we get idiots like Gary Nev with his baseless rants about "once you say no to a manager then you've lost them" nonsense.

Don't folks want a DoF? Jose turned it down, why aren't our supporters instead giving Jose grief over it and slowing down the modernized restructure we so badly need?

Ed's in a situation where he loses every which way.

If he supports the manager (like he has) you say he's hired the wrong manager. When he's dared offer up resistance (Fellaini) or alternate ideas (DoF) he's also wrong.





Sterling, I've no idea what half of this is about but I'll give it a bash

What football background have the other top 5 CEO's got? It's practically non existent I've already mentioned this on a previous page.

Soriano, Moore, Levy, Venkatesham & Laurence football experience consists of one working for a sports manufacturer and another being a supporter of the club he's now at. Their experience is steeped in accounting, business and economics!

By an large they are not "football men".

Moyes was hired by Fergie / Gill. Now to do with Ed.

You both mention he hires the wrong managers, yet ignore the fact the you most like demanded Jose be hired 3 years ago. It's complete revisionist bollicks (about as polite as I can be) from our fan base who are now pretending they never wanted Jose and he was inherently the wrong choice.

Spurs fans aren't calling for Levy's head really at any point are they? Don't tell me its cause they are going in the right direction, they weren't calling for his head pre Poch arrival when they were smack bang mid table.

As Johan says above, why aren't Arsenal supporters calling for their CEO's head (Venkatesham)? How about Chelsea with Laurence?

We've a weird bunch of supporters in our midst who completely fall for tabloid rubbish without doing the slightest bit of research for themselves.

Seems like nobody is understanding what I'm saying. Probably because I'm arguing both sides.

First off, I bring up Moyes as an example of Ed being put in a tough position right away. I'm defending Ed because he came into a new role without the right support. And I'm saying it was doubly hard because Moyes cleared out a successful backroom staff.

I don't understand the . Its petty and ironic since I'm actually arguing on behalf of your beloved Ed at this point. All the other CEOs at the top clubs are the perfect example of what United were missing. Take City for instance. Any executive that walks into that club will have a wealth of football experience to leverage. When Ed came to United, he had Moyes and a bunch of his staff that were saying Jagielka was a better defender than Rio. You see the difference I'm highlighting?

Now thereon out we start hearing more and more comments directly from Woodward about the direction of the club. He's trying to be a great CEO and make his own mark. The problem is he briefly talked about the United values and then promptly lost sight of it with the way he hired managers.

Don't make up my opinion on LVGs dismissal. I thought it was a shameful move on part of Ed. And whatever the cafes opinion on Jose, the man making the decisions is the one who is at fault for hiring someone so polar opposite to what the club stands for.

I don't give a flying fig about Spurs or Arsenal fans. They're not used to winning. United fans are. So seeing the club not win consistently for so long is why we are in uproar. How can you not even get that as a United fan? Or are you not one?

I explained a list of expectations I had for Woodward before I would begin to consider that he might be learning from his mistakes. You couldn't even accept that to any degree! You literally were defending Woody for future failures he hasn't yet had! It's crazy. Then again, half your other posts are defending Michael Jackson

 

[Keefy18]

Seems like nobody is understanding what I'm saying. Probably because I'm arguing both sides.

First off, I bring up Moyes as an example of Ed being put in a tough position right away. I'm defending Ed because he came into a new role without the right support. And I'm saying it was doubly hard because Moyes cleared out a successful backroom staff.

I don't understand the . Its petty and ironic since I'm actually arguing on behalf of your beloved Ed at this point. All the other CEOs at the top clubs are the perfect example of what United were missing. Take City for instance. Any executive that walks into that club will have a wealth of football experience to leverage. When Ed came to United, he had Moyes and a bunch of his staff that were saying Jagielka was a better defender than Rio. You see the difference I'm highlighting?

Now thereon out we start hearing more and more comments directly from Woodward about the direction of the club. He's trying to be a great CEO and make his own mark. The problem is he briefly talked about the United values and then promptly lost sight of it with the way he hired managers.

Don't make up my opinion on LVGs dismissal. I thought it was a shameful move on part of Ed. And whatever the cafes opinion on Jose, the man making the decisions is the one who is at fault for hiring someone so polar opposite to what the club stands for.

I don't give a flying fig about Spurs or Arsenal fans. They're not used to winning. United fans are. So seeing the club not win consistently for so long is why we are in uproar. How can you not even get that as a United fan? Or are you not one?

I explained a list of expectations I had for Woodward before I would begin to consider that he might be learning from his mistakes. You couldn't even accept that to any degree! You literally were defending Woody for future failures he hasn't yet had! It's crazy. Then again, half your other posts are defending Michael Jackson

Now that makes a lot more sense, how it was posted was difficult to understand.

You indeed are right, he inherited a mess. He walked into a very tough job as is having to deal with Moyes from the get go, that's before we consider the rebuild that lay before him with the team.

I'm laughing at the notion that CEO's must be football men, it seems to be only a prerequisite if your the United CEO.

You might not care about other clubs, but I'm making the point that other clubs supporters aren't blaming their CEO's on their rough periods on the field, are they?

I'm seriously struggling to think of a single club that is as vocally against their CEO and calling for their head, but our own. It's mental and basically illogical.

The bit in bold, we really shouldn't be used to winning cause our history says otherwise. We've had 2 managers in a 126 year history approx that have been truly successful, everything else around that has been average to abysmal!!

Our fan base needs to go look at our history and realize it was 26 years to a title with Fergie and if they want to go back further there was gaps around Busby's time and we had to wait 40 years from 1910 to Busby managing it in the early 50s!

Where have I defended "future failures"?

 

[Bastian]

Is the club now briefing there'll be two meaningful additions to the side before pre-season? Is this reported anywhere else besides the S**? This expectation management would worry me, especially whilst still without a DoF.

 

[1988]

@Keefy18 The CEO doesn't need a football background if he does a good job himself or hires a Director of Football or Technical Director (Or whatever) to do the job. I'm simply saying that we have regressed the years he has been in charge of our club. Moved nowhere. We've tried 4 different managers, signed a shiteload of players and nothing has worked yet. It all starts with Woodward. I'm not saying the mangers nor players are without fault but we have got to start looking for direction and Woodward gives us none. Woodward can keep his CEO title for all I care but I'd love for us to hire someone who can execute a vision and strategy.

 

[sglowrider]

 

[Class of 63]

Must admit that was nearly funny.

 

[Denis79]

Why are you ignoring what happened from 25th January to the summer window?

• What about the Sevilla shit show? Woeful result and then Jose added insult (literally) to injury by undermining the club and praising himself and living off of former glories from nearly a decade prior.
• What about Jose publicly admitting he couldn't motivate the players 2-3 games on the bounce around April to May?
• What about his very public support and demands that Fellaini be rewarded a new contract? Pay rise and all? See this example right here shows support from Ed to Jose, but all you hear is, Ed over ruled Jose. Basically if he supports him, he's wrong. If he doesn't he's wrong.
• What about his very public temper tantrums the minute the summer tour kicked off where he told supporters not to attend matches?

All this prior to any fall out over Centre half demands.

But to add to the centre half demands, he got 2 new centre halves which he basically ignored and continually chose the old school duo of Smalling & Jones over his own investments, but what makes it more hilarious is the fact he sold Blind!

Thanks to his own choice of scout (Ribalta) walking 1 year into his job at United, he was left with options of flavor of the month (Maguire at mind boggling prices) and short term option (Alderwerield, also expensive at 70m).

You like soooo many others cherry pick tid bits of situations without truly analyzing them and the events leading up to what actually happened.

Jose engineered a pay off its that simple.



Feck sake

Conspiracy theories now is it?

Look he's made mistakes, but we've an army of supporters blaming him for things that don't fall under his job spec.

He's been blamed for our on field woes, how utterly stupid is that? The exact opposite of that is like praising Martin Edwards for the Treble. Should we erect a statue of Edwards outside OT now then like Fergie got one?

It has been bad since SAF retired, not just with the cnut Jose. Ed Woodward is the man running the fecking club or rather crashing it. He appointed the managers, gave the ok on buys and sells, had a final say in all decisions, ofcourse he's responsible.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

The club has frozen ticket prices for the last eight seasons. That we're still top of matchday revenue says a lot more than your spin. It also kept the match going fans happy and nullified a lot of opposition from groups like MUST and the green and gold campaign. It's a good business move.

Penalties under the Adidas deal will be spread out over the remainder of the contract. So again, your spin is overly dramatic and doom-mongery whereas the reality, not so much.

Because they raised the prices dramatically before the price freeze.