Is playing style the only thing that decides whether or not a player plays? You should actually stop this discussion, you're embarrassing yourself. All i'm saying is that McFred will have to adapt a similar playing style when Ten Hags system is fully set up. We're not there yet, since we're only 3 preseason games in, but when we get there McFred will have to play a similar way and if they can't, i'd imagine VDB will get a chance ahead of them(but that last part is me hoping what will happen).
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Fernandes and Eriksen ahead of him. He’s definitely not playing in a midfield two in the PL. It’s not looking good, brev. Ajax can have him for 10m.
Hey man, leave us out of it
It's clearly just you who doesn't understand the genius of his backwards passing
I wasn't saying it's genius backwards passing, i was merely explaining why he does that and how Ten Hag prefers triangle passing.Hey man, leave us out of it
It's clearly just you who doesn't understand the genius of his backwards passing
But you as a Dutchie? should know the reason, since it's drilled into every Dutch football fan/player.
is McTom good enough in a midfield two? I would prefer Donny, if he plays like he did yesterday.
I'm with Stacks on this one, really wouldn't read much into preseason games. Only thing I take from it is we have more urgency than our opponents. Our style of play was always a bit more pleasing for the eye in preseason games where Pereira looked like a good footballer.
It will take A LOT of time to adjust to ETH style, we've seen nothing new yet.
Why is that? In a very few games he played in midfield for us he actually looked decent. It's further up he looks ineffective.
Agree. Donny should play with the first team, it can't be worse than McT.
He was class yesterday, opened up lots of space for our attacking players with his clever movement which led to us creating chance after chance. He definitely has something to offer and shouldn't be sold or loaned out IMO.
Quote from ten Hag a few days ago:
I think it will almost certainly be Frenkmaster Flex (when he does finally sign) + Fred/McTominay in the two. For at least a season, until we can replace the second player in that pivot.ETH said:
McFred have started 3 for 3 this tour, and for good reason. As average as they may be, they’re the closest two who resemble central midfielders. Like the gaffer said, Donny is at his best further up the field with the freedom to roam around. Not in a midfield two.
Hey man, leave us out of it
It's clearly just you who doesn't understand the genius of his backwards passing
Reading comprehension isn't your best skill isn't it? I wasn't saying only Dutch people understand, but that most Dutch people will understand, as it's something that is a key part of Dutch football.
You need to be a Dutchie to understand, now I get it.
Are you saying Frenkie + McFred in midfield??
Ten Hag did say that but yet he plays him in a midfield two yesterday. Perhaps he was unhappy about McTom and wanted to try Donny.
Quotes aside, do you believe van de Beek has been better in advanced position than in midfield playing for United?
I think quite the opposite but interested in your opinion.
Now I don't question Mcfred, but I'm really worried what else do we have in midfield. Seems like we're putting all our money on getting de Jong and playing youngsters, and I'm pretty scared how this plays out in the end.
Why isn't VDB really standing out in these pre season games?
He should know the system well being an Ajax coached player, he should also slot into the team straight away with him being the only one willing to try what Ten Hag wants and the only one with the ability to pass and move in a triangle (something I thought every professional player could do, apparently not!)
Are we saying it's down to the players he is playing with as to why he cannot shine to the best of his abilities? Fitness maybe?
Just would genuinely like to hear.
Now I understand to a degree this thinking,
however by this rational, Ronaldo, Messi, Lewandowski or the best player in any team, have never had a bad game, as it's their teammates that aren't on the same wavelength.
Because he plays with the younglings? He looked good when he played with the first XI those 15 minutes. But fitting the style perfectly doesn't make a player a guaranteed started. Ten Hag might not deem him good enough or he might think that until the team is ready to implement his full tactics/style it works better with McFred as Fred/VDB and McT/VDB aren't good pairings. Who knows?
I'm pretty sure McTominay will lose his spot when it really kicks off, because he's very good at breaking the triangle by hiding behind his opponent
. But not sure to whom, i hope VDB, but could be anyone.More than unhappy with Scott, it was a tactical switch. We played 4-2-3-1 in the first half, and 4-3-3 for 15 mins in the second. Donny and Bruno were both playing alongside each other.
I think we are all getting way too specific will who should start and who should not. Ole's loyalty to his first xi has had this effect on everyone.
We'll play different games with different set ups which best suit the opposition. These options are good, and make us less predictable to opposition managers.
I have no idea what ETH has in mind for Donny.
But I would warn his fans (an odd bunch, a really odd bunch) that it could be...that Donny will not emerge as a world beater next season.
I mean - it could happen.
But also - it could not happen.
Just - don't expect too much.
For me - I have never seen anything which indicates that he's anything but a "tidy" player at best. But, by all means, I have nothing against tidy players if their tidiness enhances the team.
But I would warn his fans (an odd bunch, a really odd bunch) that it could be...that Donny will not emerge as a world beater next season.
I mean - it could happen.
But also - it could not happen.
Just - don't expect too much.
For me - I have never seen anything which indicates that he's anything but a "tidy" player at best. But, by all means, I have nothing against tidy players if their tidiness enhances the team.
How do we explain his time at Everton then?Because he plays with the younglings? He looked good when he played with the first XI those 15 minutes. But fitting the style perfectly doesn't make a player a guaranteed started. Ten Hag might not deem him good enough or he might think that until the team is ready to implement his full tactics/style it works better with McFred as Fred/VDB and McT/VDB aren't good pairings. Who knows?
I'm pretty sure McTominay will lose his spot when it really kicks off, because he's very good at breaking the triangle by hiding behind his opponent
Are we seriously suggesting here that VDB hasn't displayed anything like his best at United or his brief time at Everton because of the players he is playing with?
For a player to only play well in one system with quality players around him, then I would call into question that players ability.
Adaptation is the key to football, adapting to the opposition, adapting to environmental factors, the different team mates, different tactics.
If you are suggesting the above, then Donny shouldn't be at a top level elite club.
All these "systems" needed to make a player effective is essentially a cover up for poorer quality footballers. I never felt Hazard needed system or Paul Scholes. just limited players needing their coach to cover their limitations
But there arent a lot of players are on that level and are different kind of players. Donny is a link up player. His walking away helps his twamplayer. As cruijff once said you help a team mate by walking away. You create space and you draw opponents away. Of the ball movement is as important as on the ball movement
Yeah he doesn't need a system. He's better than Mctominay in any system. Better tackler and shows for the ball much more.
He's a fantastic give and go player that we need to beat the press. If Frenkie doesn't come then I want to see him play with Fred. They'll be a great pivot and way better than Mcfred
Donny does need a system tbf. In the right system he can be excellent. In a no system you'll find a lot of better players because they are quicker, stronger, or better dribblers/passers. Donny is an allround player with a lot of qualities that can gel in perfectly in a well drilled team. Great teams needs players like this. You don't have a great team with 11 superstars.
Concerning the never ending debate about his position, Ten Hag has called it already that he's a #10. All these people calling for #6.. at that position he'll be decent at best. He played there for Ajax only a few times and was never great. He can do a decent job there, but you can find many better players there. Donny can be an excellent #10 however, also in PL. However a very different #10 compared to Bruno (or Eriksen). Donny is not that creative. But in and around the box he's very dangerous and he's very dangerous in link-up play.
However it will be difficult for him to get into the team. Whether he'll be successful depend on with what type of #10 Ten Hag will play. If he plays with a playmaking/creative #10, Bruno and Eriksen are simply way ahead of Donny. However if he wants to play with a #10 that's on the move all the time, displacing the defensive unit and being at the right place at the right time around the opponents box, than EtH knows that Donny is his man.
So far it looks like it'll be the option with Bruno on #10, however this is also knowing that Ten Hag hasn't been able to work with every player that he desires. The whole setup might look completely different with De Jong and Eriksen added to the squad. If De Jong and Eriksen end up the two in front of defense, then Donny could be a more logical option on #10 than Bruno, as he offers other qualities that provide more balance on the midfield.
---- Eriksen ----- De Jong
Sancho --- Donny --- Bruno
---- Martial / Rashford ---
I think this could very well be what Ten Hag is aiming towards. It may not look like it right now, but that's because Ten Hag thinks in concepts and De Jong is a crucial part of his concept. The more I think about it, De Jong coming in could have huge implications for Donny as well.
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Yeah it is.
But that still doesn't mean that VDB is only as good as his teammates, that just doesn't make sense.
Sometimes being passive is fine, sometimes being proactive and aggressive is required, there needs to be a happy medium, alas we haven't seen that with Donny thus far
He hasn't shown anything yet to convince, including EtH. The teams he is picking point to Donny not being the first choice. That's even before Erikson comes into contention. There are better players who can play the number 10 role at the club than Donny. Bruno, Erikson, Sancho, and even young Zidane has looked better in pre-season. I can't believe this talk of him playing well off the ball. I would say he's so low on confidence he's hiding from the ball or being consistently in the wrong position to receive the ball. He needs now to show up and demand the ball. I wouldn't be surprised if United get a decent midfielder the Donny being touted to other teams behind the scenes.
If ETH makes Donny look like a top level player then it's sign he's one of the greatest managers of all time.
He's just not very good. There are so many players that should be selected over him in the vast majority of situations, even players in the squad that we should be looking to improve upon in upcoming transfer windows are ahead of him, and several youngsters could soon overtake him. Donny is low down the pecking order and will only fall further down in time. Maybe he'll stay for a while and be somewhat useful on occasions, but he has no long term future here that is evident.
He's just not very good. There are so many players that should be selected over him in the vast majority of situations, even players in the squad that we should be looking to improve upon in upcoming transfer windows are ahead of him, and several youngsters could soon overtake him. Donny is low down the pecking order and will only fall further down in time. Maybe he'll stay for a while and be somewhat useful on occasions, but he has no long term future here that is evident.
Disagree. He's better than Mctominay at everything. He's as good as Fred who I used to defend when he was getting pilloried by our fans.
If we get Frenkie then he won't be in our top 3 midfielders but right now he'd start most games for me.
His supposed best position is high up the pitch getting in around the opposition penalty box, and we haven't even seen that from him. People seem to compare him to our CMs out of desperation tbh, he's shown nothing to suggest he can play as a 6 or 8. Comparing him to Fred is nonsensical, different positions, different attributes.
Nah passing and tackling is what 6s and 8s do. Donny is actually quite good at both. He can play 10 but he's more suited to 6 or 8 imo.
90% of Donny's passing involves looking to make a little flick around the corner and then ghost past a defender, playing in centre midfield is a completely different game. It's wishful thinking because of how uninspiring our CMs are. De Jong and Eriksen will show our fans what an actual CM looks like, Fred will show his workload can compliment a more technical midfield partner. Garner will over take Donny this season, Iqbal or Savage or Hannibal in a year or twos time will overtake him. He's a backup number 10 who is considerably worse than our first choice 10.
Evidently not. He has never outshone McTom or Fred hence why every manager has opted against him. There is the fantasy Donny vs the reality Donny
*facepalm*
He's not suited for 6 or 8. His qualities there are mediocre at best. He's a 10, however not a creative one. His qualities in and around the box are great though. I understand these type of players are not very common as they are not used very often. Teams play a creative #10 or without a 10.
The reason why Donny hasn't been that great at 10 for United is because he has been made to play as a creative 10. He's not a Bruno replacement, he has total different qualities. When Bruno is not playing, you put Donny there and you expect him to do exactly what Bruno is doing, you just don't understand the characteristics of the player. Donny never did those things when he did great at Ajax. Its not like he played like Bruno did when Donny was back at Ajax and now at PL level he can't do it. He never played like Bruno in the first place. He's a totally different player, to ve used in a different setup.
Donny has great qualities in and around the box and therefor 10 is by far his best position. He needs however creative players around him that will find him in those area's. He will be at the right place at the right time, capitalize on the opportunities and find the right solutions there. However if you're waiting for him to be the playmaker setting up all the attackers with great passes fdom the half way line, you're going to wait a very long time. He will do so occasionally, but it's never been his game to always give that pass.
At 6 or 8, sure Donny might be a decent player, but he'll never be the significant improvement over McFred that you're looking for.
Donny makes more than flick around the corner passes. He's well able to play midfield and is better in there than our regular starter these past 2 seasons. If we sign better players then fine, but he should have started ahead of Mctominay for 2 years and should do so going forward.
Him Bruno and Fred should have been our midfield these past 2 years. It would have been much more progressive and would have led to better results.
He already is. That switch against Crystal palace worked wonders. I can only see Fred in the new system and even then I don’t think for long as James Garner will replace him as well.
Many players are system players and even Messi is one of them. Some thrive in chaos like Bruno… it all depends on a player’s strengths.
vdb’s strengths, are passing, positioning and understanding space around him… an anathema in Ole’s teams. So Vdb needs intelligent players around him like Sancho etc.
Messi a system player? I've heard it all now
Messi is a once in a generation talent, someone who shines no matter what manager he is playing for, be that for Barca or for his national team who play in a completely different style.
It's fine to call VDB a 'system' player, but if he can only play that one way then he is decidedly limited as a footballer at an elite level.
A footballer who only shines when playing with the best is probably using their teammates to hide their own deficiencies.
We should've sold van de Beek in that case, he's getting what, 5 games a season if both Bruno and Eriksen are ahead of him?
We can (most likely) agree Donny is a "system" player, then it would be really mad to think we will build a system where totally different players (Bruno, Eriksen and vdB) can shine equally. Simply makes more sense to play without no10 (we have attacking players suited for 4-3-3 anyway).
So it seems like we have three no10's, and two (senior) midfielders. It's the reason why people (including me) are desperate to give van de Beek a chance in midfield, because makes little sense to keep him as a "backup no10" AND our midfield quality is, to put it mildly, not up to standards.
I have seen van de Beek in midfield for both United and Everton where he was quite effective, and he definitely looks more suited to midfield than no10 position. Moreover, if ETH implements any kind of structure, van de Beek will be a more suited player for midfield position than McTominay, who IMO will struggle massively. At this moment Donny already has better positioning, awareness and is a better tackler. The only issue I see is van de Beek seems to have low stamina, but I guess we should see what happens if he's given some regular time on the pitch.
BTW I like stories about Iqbal or Savage or Hannibal breaking into first team and taking over midfield, but I live long enough to "manage my expactations" for the youngsters coming into EPL.
Also, for those quoting Ten Hag - I believe we should take his comments about players with a grain of salt, we really don't know if any midfielder is coming and he has been here only for 5 minutes. Midfield is still a mess, we might see Phil Jones in midfield early October!
Terrible idea
That midfield would’ve been overrun and outplayed by every top 6 teams.ETH will give VDB a chance to prove his potential, but will soon realise VDB doesn’t have a future in United. VDB will be gone in January.
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