[dinostar77]

One more video, i swear. 1:37min, look at that long pass for the assist. 3:00min, backheel nutmeg on the defender. This isn't the player we are seeing at Utd.

I'll say this to even the most ardent critic of Donny, watch the first 4mins only. Just 4mins to get an idea of the player we have signed and whats hes like when hes confident and loved. Just class. Ole has really shot his confidence. If we can get him back to his ajax levels we have a helluva player on our hands. Its a big IF.

 

[Kaizane]

The problem is he's not better than Bruno as a playmaker and he's not as effective as Fred or McT in the anchor roles, even though he's in many respects a better ball player than those two - so where do we play him?

Feels like both the player and manager are at an impasse, neither doing the other a favour in resolving the issue which is the player not suiting the system and the system not suiting the player. He's not doing himself any favours by not showing for the ball and then passing back when he does and the manager isn't doing him favours by not giving him a run. The onus is on them both.

He's not a rubbish footballer but it was a bad signing and we should cut our losses, simply because we don't have another year to hope he'll come good. No doubt he'll go tear it up for the likes of Barca or someone of that ilk.

 

[dinostar77]

Hiding because he thinks that 1 wrong pass will get him the bench for the next month(which probably is true). Same yesterday near the sideline, he could've passed it long(and probably lost the ball because nobody was really available) but instead he then tried to pass backward, again with nobody available. So he then lost the ball. While at Ajax there'd always be someone available. That's the main difference for him at United and that's why United shouldn't have bought him

He's definitely lacking in confidence for sure, Martial as CF really doesn't help him as Martial is never where he is supposed to be for your focal point, hes off on the left somewhere. I'm not ready to right him off, he can come good hopefully. Just needs a run of games and not being subbed so early.

 

[luke511]

The problem is he's not better than Bruno as a playmaker and he's as effective as Fred or McT in the anchor roles, even though he's in many respects a better ball player than those two - so where do we play him?

Feels like both the player and manager are at an impasse, neither doing the other a favour in resolving the issue which is the player not suiting the system and the system not suiting the player. He's not doing himself any favours by not showing for the ball and then passing back when he does and the manager isn't doing him favours by not giving him a run. The onus is on them both.

He's not a rubbish footballer but it was a bad signing and we should cut our losses, simply because we don't have another year to hope he'll come good. No doubt he'll go tear it up for the likes of Barca or someone of that ilk.

Against lower opposition he should be in the double pivot no question. Absolutely no need for Fred/McTominay/Matic to take up two positions in the midfield when a packed defence needs breaking down.

 

[Zoo]

Whether he’s low on confidence or not he needs to dig himself out of it. Passing the ball backwards when in promising attacking situations is unacceptable. Most people would rather he tried and failed to play the killer pass instead of playing it safe.

 

[11101]

Look at 27 sec, that long pass from deep in his own half, where is that DVB?

That's not going to happen in the PL. DVB's not going to get all that time unopposed in central midfield to look for the pass, and the runner isn't going to be able to get into so much space without being tracked and challenged.

He has the ability but his confidence is shot, it's that simple for me. I am happy to give him a summer to sort it out but if he's like this next season it's best for all if he goes back to a team with less pressure on him.

 

[He'sRaldo]

The problem is he's not better than Bruno as a playmaker and he's not as effective as Fred or McT in the anchor roles, even though he's in many respects a better ball player than those two - so where do we play him?

Feels like both the player and manager are at an impasse, neither doing the other a favour in resolving the issue which is the player not suiting the system and the system not suiting the player. He's not doing himself any favours by not showing for the ball and then passing back when he does and the manager isn't doing him favours by not giving him a run. The onus is on them both.

He's not a rubbish footballer but it was a bad signing and we should cut our losses, simply because we don't have another year to hope he'll come good. No doubt he'll go tear it up for the likes of Barca or someone of that ilk.

He's most likely a better playmaker than Bruno, probably Pogba as well (although he is improving at that this season). Both are top chance creators but they are not that good at decision-making, making plays and moving the team up the pitch, which Donny is good at.

All the complaining about sideways and backwards passing is showing lack of understanding in how to move the team up the pitch. Then again, we haven't been a possession team for a long time so people will not be used to the short little sideways and backwards passes that help control the tempo of the game.

 

[Cassidy]

He's most likely better than Bruno as a playmaker, probably Pogba as well. Both are top chance creators but they are not that good at decision-making, making plays and moving the team up the pitch, which Donny is good at. All the complaining about sideways and backwards passing is showing lack of understanding in how to move the team up the pitch.

No way is he anywhere those as a play maker. He is brilliant off the ball and at linking play. Playing with a playmaker like DeJong

 

[Marcelinho87]

He's another Kezman, add him to a long list of players who did it in the Dutch league and failed elsewhere.

 

[He'sRaldo]

No way is he anywhere those as a play maker. He is brilliant off the ball and at linking play. Playing with a playmaker like DeJong

I edited the post a bit for clarity. Both are poor at possession play, I'd even go as far as to say Bruno has shown to be one of our worst players at it. Pogba has improved and matured at it this season, but even then it's not his natural game.

Donny is naturally better as a playmaker (in the brain) than both of them, despite them both being more talented.

 

[Esquire]

The difference is when Fabhino did play you could see his quality.

That’s exactly my point. So whilst I would want DvB to come good, there is just nothing which his supporters can say that, based on his performances, he deserves to play more or that he has been ill treated by Ole.

 

[Kaizane]

Against lower opposition he should be in the double pivot no question. Absolutely no need for Fred/McTominay/Matic to take up two positions in the midfield when a packed defence needs breaking down.

One of either a worldie of a CB or worldie holding midfield player would allow us to play him there but unfortunately, we have neither.

 

[Cassidy]

I edited the post a bit for clarity. Both are poor at possession play, I'd even go as far as to say Bruno has shown to be one of our worst players at it. Pogba has improved and matured at it this season, but even then it's not his natural game.

Donny is naturally better as a playmaker (in the brain) than both of them, despite them both being more talented.

Donny isnt really a playmaker. Yes hes good in a posession team but thats not what a playmaker is.

 

[RUCK4444]

Whether he’s low on confidence or not he needs to dig himself out of it. Passing the ball backwards when in promising attacking situations is unacceptable. Most people would rather he tried and failed to play the killer pass instead of playing it safe.

Yup. He’s done this consistently since he arrived.

He seems scared to play a forward pass or lift the ball off the deck whatsoever.

You wouldn’t mind if he were attempting to keep the ball when we are leading a game but he’s doing it when we are chasing games. You can’t have that.

People need to stop begging for him to start, let’s see what he’s like next season after a longer time mixing with the squad, we can’t carry anonymous players like him and Martial through to the end of this season.

 

[LovelyLittlePanda]

I'd had hoped that the injury would give him the mental reset he needed. I don't think we will see anything useful out of him this season I'm afraid.

I've seen him do all the things he's being criticised for not doing. Dude can't deal with the pressure. The fact that his best moments, yesterday's dummy and the flick to Mata were instinctive all points towards it.

it's easy to blame Ole, but I think this is just a phase Donny would have gone through regardless of the current manager.

if he wants to stay I would always keep him unless his fee would go towards a massive signing like Haaland.

 

[CG1010]

Hes essentially been cleverley with less bite since he came here. He hasn't shown any intent to get on the ball or try something when he gets on it. You just can't do that in any midfield position. You have to show for it, get on it and try to do something useful, not just keep possession with no purpose. His touch is good, he can have good passing range, but he hasn't shown any aggression or the mentality yet to survive at any big club. Never taking a single risk. Just hiding off of the ball, and playing the simplest and safest pass on the ball.

Hence he would have fit in to LVG's United!

 

[He'sRaldo]

Donny isnt really a playmaker. Yes hes good in a posession team but thats not what a playmaker is.

Point being he's the best option of a playmaker we have, and a pretty good one at that. The others are not natural in the role, Fernandes especially.
The other poster said this:

The problem is he's not better than Bruno as a playmaker and he's not as effective as Fred or McT in the anchor roles, even though he's in many respects a better ball player than those two - so where do we play him?

And I disagree. I think he needs to play alongside either Bruno or Pogba as the playmaker/ tempo controller, while they play their natural game as the chance creator. We've seen this setup in only one game thus far, and the results were good.

 

[CG1010]

Hopefully. But I'm not sure I'd agree that Fred has made it here.

Well Fred still goes hot and cold but atleast he has become a legitimate first XI player here at United. Something VDB is clearly far off from doing currently.

 

[SATA]

Donny is anything but a playmaker. I think even Ajax fans would tell you that. He’s too passive to be even one, never mind his lack of ability of being one

 

[Cassidy]

Point being he's the best option of a playmaker we have, and a pretty good one at that. The others are not natural in the role.

The other poster said this:



And I disagree. I think he needs to play alongside either Bruno or Pogba as the playmaker, while they play their natural game as the chance creator.

a playmaker is a player who controls the flow of the team's offensive play, and is often involved in passing moves which lead to goals, through their vision, technique, ball control, creativity, and passing ability.[1]

I disagree that Donnys attributes are more suited to that than Bruno/Pogba. Maybe as a metronome but even then I dont think his skillset even suits that. To me Donny is a player who can fit in and play with a playmaker and other creative passing teammates and utilise his intelligence and movement off the ball to get into dangerous positions.

 

[Moiraine]

One of the few players in the team I consider an embarrassment. Lots of players not good enough to challenge for the title, but none as cowardly.

Danial James ?

 

[bosnian_red]

Danial James ?

Why would Dan James be an embarrassment? Kid works his ass off every game, never hides from getting the ball and tries things. Him just not being quite good enough doesn't mean he is an embarrassment. There's a big difference between trying and failing, to not trying at all, or working hard but lacking quality, to not working hard.

 

[He'sRaldo]

a playmaker is a player who controls the flow of the team's offensive play, and is often involved in passing moves which lead to goals, through their vision, technique, ball control, creativity, and passing ability.[1]

I disagree that Donnys attributes are more suited to that than Bruno/Pogba. Maybe as a metronome but even then I dont think his skillset even suits that. To me Donny is a player who can fit in and play with a playmaker and other creative passing teammates and utilise his intelligence and movement off the ball to get into dangerous positions.

Does that description fit Fernandes to you? Fernandes has just one gear and it's "forward", even if the pass isn't on. It took Pogba till age 28 to learn to pass and move instead of overshielding, overdribbling, or always going for the hollywood pass.

Of the three players Donny fits that description the most, but he's not playing in a possession based team that rewards possession play. The other two are elite magicians and chance creators yes, but not natural playmakers. However Ole's very direct, individual system does fit them the most.

Look at Pep talking about why he doesn't play Foden in midfield much yet, and you'll see what I mean:



From minute 14:40.

 

[Scholesgoals]

Tidy player, not sure why he cant adapt to be the player that picks up the ball from the CBs' and transitions play, a bit like scholes became.

 

[kopviolator]

Well Fred still goes hot and cold but atleast he has become a legitimate first XI player here at United. Something VDB is clearly far off from doing currently.

That's true. But if we're to get back to our former glory we'll need great players. Neither of them are that.

 

[Toddler]

40 million. He has been absolutely dross when given chance. Looks like another bad signing. A A shame.

 

[Kaizane]

Point being he's the best option of a playmaker we have, and a pretty good one at that. The others are not natural in the role, Fernandes especially.
The other poster said this:



And I disagree. I think he needs to play alongside either Bruno or Pogba as the playmaker/ tempo controller, while they play their natural game as the chance creator. We've seen this setup in only one game thus far, and the results were good.

Bruno doesn't operate as part of a two, he's got the license to roam between the forwards and midfield. Putting Donny alongside him as a playmaker would just upset the balance of the team completely, which is why Ole doesn't.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Bruno doesn't operate as part of a two, he's got the license to roam between the forwards and midfield. Putting Donny alongside him as a playmaker would just upset the balance of the team completely, which is why Ole doesn't.

I agree with most of that. Essentially we don't play, or setup to play, possession-based football. That's a flaw with Ole, as nowadays possession is forced on the top teams and possession-based football is a must in order to achieve top honours.

That said, I do think Donny and Bruno (and/or Pogba) would work quite well, as Donny would take some of the playmaking burden off of Bruno and the DM, allowing each to play their natural game.

 

[Cassidy]

Does that description fit Fernandes to you? Fernandes has just one gear and it's "forward", even if the pass isn't on. It took Pogba till age 28 to learn to pass and move instead of overshielding, overdribbling, or always going for the hollywood pass.

Of the three players Donny fits that description the most, but he's not playing in a possession based team that rewards possession play. The other two are elite magicians and chance creators yes, but not natural playmakers. However Ole's very direct, individual system does fit them the most.

Look at Pep talking about why he doesn't play Foden in midfield much yet, and you'll see what I mean:



From minute 14:40.

Playmakers dont only exist in posession based systems you know. Put it this way, even in a posession based team he doesnt have the attributes of David Silva, KDB or Gundogan which extend far beyond retaining posession and pass and move. He wasnt even really a playmaker for Ajax and when he did play as one for them when players left he didnt excel

 

[kirk buttercup]

One more video, i swear. 1:37min, look at that long pass for the assist. 3:00min, backheel nutmeg on the defender. This isn't the player we are seeing at Utd.

I'll say this to even the most ardent critic of Donny, watch the first 4mins only. Just 4mins to get an idea of the player we have signed and whats hes like when hes confident and loved. Just class. Ole has really shot his confidence. If we can get him back to his ajax levels we have a helluva player on our hands. Its a big IF.

I liked him at Ajax . Thought he was very good in the games I have watched him . Poor lad looks Shot of Confidence and like we have seen here before sometimes these talented players dont kick on when they step up to a big Club in a Tough League. He hasnt had a huge amount of time to find his way but he has been very underwhelming in the ones he has played. Very Disappointing so far as I thought he was going to be a great signing .

 

[He'sRaldo]

Playmakers dont only exist in posession based systems you know. Put it this way, even in a posession based team he doesnt have the attributes of David Silva, KDB or Gundogan which extend far beyond retaining posession and pass and move. He wasnt even really a playmaker for Ajax and when he did play as one for them when players left he didnt excel

I see what you mean re the bolded. I guess in an extremely direct counter-attacking system Bruno would be the main playmaker, but then again we've already seen where that gets us as a team, and suffice to say we need more than that.

As for City, given that their team is littered with players who were the main playmakers in their former CL level teams, Donny definitely wouldn't be on the same level as those players, much less the main playmaker. But we're not talking about City here, we're talking about Utd with his competition being Bruno and Pogba.

 

[Cassidy]

I see what you mean re the bolded. I guess in an extremely direct counter-attacking system Bruno would be the main playmaker, but then again we've already seen where that gets us as a team, and suffice to say we need more than that.

As for City, given that their team is littered with players who were the main playmakers in their former CL level teams, Donny definitely wouldn't be on the same level as those players, much less the main playmaker. But we're not talking about City here, we're talking about Utd with his competition being Bruno and Pogba.

Extremely direct counter attacking isn't the only system other than possession based you know.

My main point is that apart from the sole attribute of keeping possession, VDB does not possess attributes better suited to being a playmaker than Pogba and Bruno. Who by the way if they played in possession based sides (Pogba did at Juve) can adjust accordingly fine. If a player can only exist in a possession based setup thats built to suit them I would say they are a pretty weak playmaker.

VDB is a system player, I liken him a bit to a passing version of Freddie Lungberg if you know what I mean. His main attributes are intelligence, movement and link passing. All of which Bruno can do btw, he just choses to play differently since he knows he NEEDs to take more risks as the playmaker in our setup (same goes with Pogba)

 

[Martial'sEmergingSmile]

It's a small sample size, but he's somehow averaging just 2.6 yards of progressive distance per completed pass - which seems comically low. I haven't been able to find a player in his position close to those numbers. He's just so content with the 'first time pass directly back to where it came from' stuff.

Even Lingard who's a similarly 'safe' passer in that position, who also likes quick interchanges, is averaging 4.7 yards. Mkhitaryan 4.4 at Roma. Actual creators like De Bruyne, Maddison, Bruno, Grealish, Pogba et al are all up in the mid to high 5s.

I've looked through loads of Number 10s and can't find anyone even vaguely close to being as terrifed of a forward pass as VDB is.

 

[clarkydaz]

Reminds me of Kagawa. Tidy neat touch, keeps the ball ticking over soon as he receives it but wont dominate the play. He looks way off match fitness and knows the manager has no confidence in him

 

[LovelyLittlePanda]

Reminds me of Kagawa. Tidy neat touch, keeps the ball ticking over soon as he receives it but wont dominate the play. He looks way off match fitness and knows the manager has no confidence in him

Only true if Donny views the managers confidence in him as a binary thing. Ole's been quite consistent in playing him in all the cups, big games like Leicester but also Liverpool, included. If Ole had no confidence in him, he could just as easily have played McTominay, Amad or Cavani.

Donny really doesnt deserve more minutes with how he has rewarded Ole. He'll either hand in a transfer request or start the new season fresh and make an impact before January.

There's no point in playing him this season. He's lost his cahones.

 

[P-Nut]

@tomaldinho1 rather than quoting your full reply this is easier.

I agree I prefer a CM that is comfortable on the ball and don't think Fred will ever get to a level we need. He's got his uses of course, but he shouldn't be starting against lesser teams.

Now as for DvB playing there I just don't see it. He plays too safe even as a 10, I can't see him becoming more expressive as a CM where he'd be in a position that places more emphasis on eliminating mistakes. I'd be up for seeing it when top 4 is secured, because as you say, we won't know just how he performs until he gets a run there.

If he was trying to keep the game ticking over, and getting on the ball I'd potentially see him slotting in to the CM position quite well, but at the moment I just don't see it in him.

I'd love to be wrong about him as it would mean we have cover for Pogba already in the squad, something which has been blatantly needed since he's been out.

I'd be inclined to keep Garner in the squad next season if we don't sign a DM as he has the attributes to be exactly what we need in that midfield although next season might be just a little bit too early for him.

 

[Bilbo]

Hes not a number 10. Not in a million years. Either he finds a place in the team as an 8 or he's done here, regrettably

 

[Sylar]

Hes not a number 10. Not in a million years. Either he finds a place in the team as an 8 or he's done here, regrettably

We need to play him deeper with one of Fred or mctominay behind bruno or behind bruno and Pogba of we play the diamond that we were doing before pogbas injury

 

[The Oracle]

I honestly believe the pressure of playing for Manchester United has really got to him.

Some players can handle the pressure, some can't.

Donny is in the category of players that quite simply can't handle it.

 

[tomaldinho1]

@tomaldinho1 rather than quoting your full reply this is easier.

I agree I prefer a CM that is comfortable on the ball and don't think Fred will ever get to a level we need. He's got his uses of course, but he shouldn't be starting against lesser teams.

Now as for DvB playing there I just don't see it. He plays too safe even as a 10, I can't see him becoming more expressive as a CM where he'd be in a position that places more emphasis on eliminating mistakes. I'd be up for seeing it when top 4 is secured, because as you say, we won't know just how he performs until he gets a run there.

If he was trying to keep the game ticking over, and getting on the ball I'd potentially see him slotting in to the CM position quite well, but at the moment I just don't see it in him.

I'd love to be wrong about him as it would mean we have cover for Pogba already in the squad, something which has been blatantly needed since he's been out.

I'd be inclined to keep Garner in the squad next season if we don't sign a DM as he has the attributes to be exactly what we need in that midfield although next season might be just a little bit too early for him.

I've seen Garner has been apparently doing pretty well on loan - I've also seen some of the posters who watch our academy games speak highly of him and would assume he could essentially just come in and take Matic's role next season.

VdB is an unknown in CM - I agree he seems too safe sometimes and he might be crap - but then I also think maybe that's what we need in games against 'weaker' teams. If someone counted the amount of times we turned over possession without getting into a good goal scoring position I think we'd be top of the league for that stat. I'd definitely not start him against any of the top 6 or so there until we know what he can do though.

I've seen a lot of posters talk about fatigue but think of how we play and the effect is has on our own team. We play 90mins of end to end unstructured football, Bruno basically runs most of the game. We never try to tire out teams we just go for it and back ourselves to outlast and outfight teams. Now and then, even if it's only against the bottom few teams I really think we should stop with the rush, have confidence in our players obvious abilities and just make teams like WBA and SHU chase the ball until they tire. It would also not Traveller our own players out so much.