[Roboc7]

How come people believe that VdB was forced onto Ole by the Board? Why on Earth would they spend a lot of money in a player who is not really needed during pandemic time? I am sure VdB has been purchased at Ole's request and thus Ole does need to bear responsibility for getting the most out of him. As Ole himself said previously no player can come into the team or leave it without his final say.

It’s inevitable when you have a transfer committee, the good signings are the manager’s picks and the bad ones get blamed on committee.

VDB is out of form and he doesn’t fit into how we play which is why he looks so lost. He can turn it round although personally I do struggle to see how he fits in with our playing style and our other midfielders.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I was just about to add that to my post.

I think with Pogba out, as you said, Ole might opt to go with VdB with one of Fred/McTominay again West Brom, as you'd imagine that'd be very much a game we're going to dominate.

Ole also did this against Istanbul (next to Fred) and Watford (next to McTominay).

Yeah I'd like to see it. I think it would help us get right on the front foot.

 

[justsomebloke]

This is beginning to be a joke. What has Ole or anyone else in the coaching staff seen in Donny? His abilities do not work well in the system they want - he's a possession, intelligent, fast-playing footballer who's ended up in a counter-attacking 2-3 passes before shot kind of club. I cannot see what groundwork has been done to tell them that Donny is suited for the style currently used at United. Bruno and him are so unlike each other in style, where the former fits the mold perfectly and the latter doesn't.

I think it's easy to exaggerate how much of a counterattack team we are. We have now scored considerably more goals from established play this season than from counterattacks - 27 and 20 respectively by my informal reckoning, PL and CL only. If we look only at PL, it's 24-14. If you look at Bruno's non-set pieces goals, they're 5-3 (both competitions). Haven't checked his assists, but I'd be surprised if they don't tell the same story. The overall rough distribution is 40% established play, 30% counterattacks, 15% penalties, 10% other set pieces.

Actually, I don't see why Donny's ability to make good runs and nifty little plays around the box should not be an asset that fits very well with how this team plays. But we don't seem to have unlocked that yet. I've thought the same thing that many others have pointed out, that he's constantly making good runs, but his teammates don't seem to use them as much as they should.

 

[Mcking]

I love how some try to pretend like we aren't playing to his strengths as if he has any strengths to play to.

 

[Steve 007]

I think we need to give him time. There is a high chance Pogba is off next year, he’ll be down to one year left on his contract this summer and we can’t pay him more than we currently do I believe he’s our joint highest paid player already. Every big team in Europe wanted VDB for a reason, unlike Bruno where it was just us and Spurs, we got lucky there. I think there’s a great player in there and if Bruno got injured we’d need him, the other choice is to give him a run where he plays Pogba. It might not be this season but he’ll come good, he’s determined but frustrated, he works hard and is a very intelligent player. Most players from abroad take two seasons.

 

[Bebestation]

I love how some try to pretend like we aren't playing to his strengths as if he has any strengths to play to.

A shadow striker playing as CAM whilst arguably our one and only central creative player is on the bench most of the time VDB starts a game.

A shadow striker needs someone to pick his runs up. When bruno is not playing we are stuck with Matic, Fred, Mctomminay and Pogba - do you remember how hard it was for them to create chances or make a pass that breaks the defensive line?

VDB isnt a chance creator but he is a chance taker from AM.

Just because you dont see it doesnt mean we are playing to his strengths- literally half the forum was saying how we play to individual strengths - so when you see VDB making runs and no one is picking him out; you have one more player playing to his strength and not getting the benefits of a system of passing, pressing and position.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

A shadow striker playing as CAM whilst arguably our one and only central creative player is on the bench most of the time VDB starts a game.

A shadow striker needs someone to pick his runs up. When bruno is not playing we are stuck with Matic, Fred, Mctomminay and Pogba - do you remember how hard it was for them to create chances or make a pass that breaks the defensive line?

VDB isnt a chance creator but he is a chance taker from AM.

Just because you dont see it doesnt mean we are playing to his strengths- literally half the forum was saying how we play to individual strengths - so when you see VDB making runs and no one is picking him out; you have one more player playing to his strength and not getting the benefits of a system of passing, pressing and position.

I think the variation in which we play a 4231 has to change when we play VdB.

Since Ole has come in, although he has experimented with Mata, Pogba, VdB, Lingard, etc on the wings, you can tell he wants quick, direct players in wide areas. Therefore, our CAM has to be the creative type to pick them out, as we see with Bruno.

As you rightly explained, VdB is more of a second striker (similar to Lingard, in my opinion) who likes to make runs in behind, etc, therefore to me, when VdB plays, we should be replacing one of our wingers with a wide playmaker, thus allowing this player to take on the creative burden, whilst Van de Beek does what he does best.

It comes as no surprise that VdB looked pretty good, albeit against Brighton, when he played with Mata.

 

[RonaldoVII]

I was just about to add that to my post.

I think with Pogba out, as you said, Ole might opt to go with VdB with one of Fred/McTominay again West Brom, as you'd imagine that'd be very much a game we're going to dominate.

Ole also did this against Istanbul (next to Fred) and Watford (next to McTominay).

Cue Matic and Mctominay starting. There was no need for two defensive CMs last night either.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

1 goal and 1 assist in 25 appearances is pretty dire. Now granted that's a LOT of sub appearances, but similarly, Dan James has 3 goals in 11 appearances and Juan Mata has 2 goals and 3 assists in 10... so yeah.

 

[eire-red]

I think he needs to be transitioned to a B2B midfielder. At the moment, his style of play doesn't suit the No. 10 role, as his game is all about arriving late and clever movement in the box. Unfortunately, when you have a player like that trying to feed Rushford, Martial and Greenwood, it doesn't work.

His strengths are ball retention, and he likes to move the ball quickly with an eye for a pass and a goal (from his Ajax days at least). For me, we should try and work on his defensive game, and I think his future at this club will have to be as a No. 8 instead of a No. 10.

 

[dinostar77]

We know he has a veto man, stop chatting bollocks.

are we seriously going to start where we live in a fantasy world where any player who doesn’t start off really strongly or work out, must’ve been bought by the Ed & Judge, yet any great player like Bruno must’ve been bought by the manager?

Ole didn’t veto DvB, I wouldn’t have either, nor would 99% of this forum.

Judging by how Ole choses to use DVB, makes me think that it was a choice imposed on him rather than a signing he really wanted. Happens all the time in football. Thats all i said. No idea where this "veto" stuff has come from. Im never heard about or read it anywhere.

Anyway lets move on.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Judging by how Ole choses to use DVB, makes me think that it was a choice imposed on him rather than a signing he really wanted. Happens all the time in football. Thats all i said. No idea where this "veto" stuff has come from. Im never heard about or read it anywhere.

Anyway lets move on.

no, let’s not move on, let’s educate ourselves....

Woodward said in a statement made alongside the financial results: "We have a clear vision in terms of football philosophy and recruitment.

"The significant investments that we have made in recent years in areas such as transfers, recruitment infrastructure, analytics and our academy are already beginning to bear fruit.

"We are very proud to be shortly approaching a milestone 4,000th game featuring an academy player, and we are particularly optimistic regarding the considerable young talent currently coming through.

"Our ultimate goal is to win trophies by playing exciting football with a team that fuses graduates from our academy with world-class acquisitions."


Woodward’s comments come on the back of those made in October when he sought to offer clarity on United’s transfer policy.

He told United We Stand: “The decisions related to recruitment are all taken by football experts. My involvement is signing off the money.

“The manager has a veto on a player - we would never sign a player the manager wouldn't want because he wouldn't play him. But we also feel the recruitment department, the football experts, should have a veto too.

Ole HAS A VETO, but the transfer committee also can veto Ole if they don’t like someone on his list.

This committee all came about because of the shambolic recruitment from Moyes, LVG to Mourinho, with managers requesting players that clearly people in the recruitment did not agree with.

 

[justsomebloke]

Judging by how Ole choses to use DVB, makes me think that it was a choice imposed on him rather than a signing he really wanted. Happens all the time in football. Thats all i said. No idea where this "veto" stuff has come from. Im never heard about or read it anywhere.

Anyway lets move on.

Oldish (summer of 2019), but does back up the veto thing. Ed Woodward to remain in charge of Manchester United transfer policy | Daily Mail Online
From memory, I've seen it mentioned many times, including much more recently, that United's transfer policy works by committee, with a veto on any signing for the Manager. He doesn't handle negotiations, doesn't decide how much is an acceptable price for a player and is one among several figures who decides which players to pursue. But for the decision to actually go ahead with a given signing, he has to accept responsibility I think.

 

[Bebestation]

I think the variation in which we play a 4231 has to change when we play VdB.

Since Ole has come in, although he has experimented with Mata, Pogba, VdB, Lingard, etc on the wings, you can tell he wants quick, direct players in wide areas. Therefore, our CAM has to be the creative type to pick them out, as we see with Bruno.

As you rightly explained, VdB is more of a second striker (similar to Lingard, in my opinion) who likes to make runs in behind, etc, therefore to me, when VdB plays, we should be replacing one of our wingers with a wide playmaker, thus allowing this player to take on the creative burden, whilst Van de Beek does what he does best.

It comes as no surprise that VdB looked pretty good, albeit against Brighton, when he played with Mata.

I agree. Consider yesterday- Rashford is usually the type to dribble at all his opposition defenders once he finds the ball at his feet, then when he is one on one with the goalkeeper he takes a shot.

How often do we see him make a cutback pass?
What about Greenwood?

Yesterday after ages Rashford made a cut back pass and found VDB who had made a run in to space and was waiting for it- he took an instant shot that was blocked by the defender though it was on target.

That's how VDB plays - he needs passes in to the area where he makes runs otherwise he isnt playing to a strength so leaves an average uncreative player at our disposal.

After seeing what you said - I wonder if we bought him as an alternative to Grealish or as a player than can play with Grealish instead.

Though unlikely, when you consider what you said - Rashford & Greenwood needs passes from the centre to the wider areas. However I thought about this before - when you look at a player like Haaland, is he going to be this dominant player we think he can be relying solely on the creative ability of just Bruno & Shaw - do Rashford & Greenwood have the ability to pick Haaland out with a break through pass for a poacher?

It makes me wonder if we will still target a player like Grealish as an alternative competition to Rashford- a more creative player out wide which means out central players need to be more clinical ( VDB & Bruno both can do this then).

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

Combination player in a team of individuals. Can’t inagine how he’d have got a look in at Madrid either.

 

[Terranova]

Media here, can't post/quote it yet

Look at him at his best and hes doing faints, zidane like dragbacks, backheels etc. Great first touch. Definitely not the player we are seeing at moment at utd. Definitely agree with posts above, selfish strikers at Utd arent helping him. Plus he may need a Pogba or a deeper CM who can play a penetrating forward pass to get the best out of his movement.

This is exactly how he can play. Most of those clips have him deeper on the midfield. If you watch his goal compilations you'd think he was an SS or 10 at Ajax. This compilation includes a lot of clips of matches against teams like Bayern, Spurs, Real, Juventus, Benfica and Valencia. That's a higher level than the standard Eredivisie opponents(although there's a high percentage of clips of him against PSV, not a really weak opponent). So i'm not sure where the idea comes from that he isn't good enough for the PL.

In these clips and in the others posted you can cleary see he's in the same kind of spaces as in his matches here. But at Ajax players could still find him even though there was almost no room to pass. Those passes make the difference between making a good run and seemingly hiding.

But i have to say that his best position is a bit weird. But it worked at Ajax. He's an 8 most of the time, but when attacking near the box of the opponent he's more like an SS when the striker drops back he'll run into that gap.
So it's not gonna work in our tactics/style. Nobody is going to create that gap or spot in that gap. Atleast not when he's almost never on the pitch with Bruno

 

[tomaldinho1]

We know he has a veto man, stop chatting bollocks.

are we seriously going to start where we live in a fantasy world where any player who doesn’t start off really strongly or work out, must’ve been bought by the Ed & Judge, yet any great player like Bruno must’ve been bought by the manager?

Ole didn’t veto DvB, I wouldn’t have either, nor would 99% of this forum.

There is zero proof Ed & Judge have any say whatsoever in picking transfer targets - it's even been spelled out to us by Mourinho in press conferences (re the list of targets and his preferences on that list), LVG said the same (he even went further to say he had so little support he ended up having to go for players he'd seen in the WC or knew before) and we even have extra proof re VdB because both Ole and the player have confirmed they spoke at length and VdB attributes his move to Ole convincing him to sign.

It's not even a bad transfer, yet, it's a weird one as he seems to be playing out of position and you can see how different his football upbringing is to how we play but there are a segment of Ole fans who won't hear a single bad word about Ole and VdB's transfer must have been forced on him. Woodward does not pick transfer targets, he is a CEO, he is not part of the football staff, this is one of the biggest and most ridiculous myths that permeated the caf and is now seen as truth by a lot of posters on here.

 

[Sylar]

I wonder if a pre-season will help him where theres less pressure on results and more friendlies to try things, to get into a flow as youre getting games / minutes with different types of players to see what works.

Right now hes second string, and rightfully so. Hes not going to start ahead of Pogba, Bruno, Scott or Fred in big games (and you could say any premier league game is big now). So with no League cup, fa cup is all thats left (and that depends on who we draw). Id guess Ole goes with a strong team in Europa (unless we get a big first leg score, which means he gets a chance in the second leg).

We saw it on his debut as well vs Crystal palace.

The stuff we can see in the above is different to what he was doing yesterday. I mean he was playing instead of Pogba, only big difference is we had Fred instead of Bruno? (matic in place of Scott, etc)

With Mason, rashford and martial all starting as well, he could have been afforded time to drop off deep (but then again, it seems like he had a good understand with Shaw and the 1-2)

 

[Bebestation]

Combination player in a team of individuals. Can’t inagine how he’d have got a look in at Madrid either.

This is the most simplest & true way of describing him & the situation.

Amazing stuff mate

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Oldish (summer of 2019), but does back up the veto thing. Ed Woodward to remain in charge of Manchester United transfer policy | Daily Mail Online
From memory, I've seen it mentioned many times, including much more recently, that United's transfer policy works by committee, with a veto on any signing for the Manager. He doesn't handle negotiations, doesn't decide how much is an acceptable price for a player and is one among several figures who decides which players to pursue. But for the decision to actually go ahead with a given signing, he has to accept responsibility I think.

Common sense also tells us that Ed & Judge lose big time by forcing a lad on a manager, spending 40 million quid and paying him 150k a week to do nothing whilst his value plummets.

No manager or committee will ever get everything right, and the DvB looked a good deal at the time.

 

[justsomebloke]

There is zero proof Ed & Judge have any say whatsoever in picking transfer targets - it's even been spelled out to us by Mourinho in press conferences (re the list of targets and his preferences on that list), LVG said the same (he even went further to say he had so little support he ended up having to go for players he'd seen in the WC or knew before) and we even have extra proof re VdB because both Ole and the player have confirmed they spoke at length and VdB attributes his move to Ole convincing him to sign.

It's not even a bad transfer, yet, it's a weird one as he seems to be playing out of position and you can see how different his football upbringing is to how we play but there are a segment of Ole fans who won't hear a single bad word about Ole and VdB's transfer must have been forced on him. Woodward does not pick transfer targets, he is a CEO, he is not part of the football staff, this is one of the biggest and most ridiculous myths that permeated the caf and is now seen as truth by a lot of posters on here.

From what I read, transfer targets are selected by the transfer committee. Not by the manager alone.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

From what I read, transfer targets are selected by the transfer committee. Not by the manager alone.

And that it was setup after Mourinho’s second season, hence his meltdown when the committee started to veto him on oldies and selling Martial/Pogba. Previously he was just naming his own personal wish list.

 

[VP89]

How come people believe that VdB was forced onto Ole by the Board? Why on Earth would they spend a lot of money in a player who is not really needed during pandemic time? I am sure VdB has been purchased at Ole's request and thus Ole does need to bear responsibility for getting the most out of him. As Ole himself said previously no player can come into the team or leave it without his final say.

It’s inevitable when you have a transfer committee, the good signings are the manager’s picks and the bad ones get blamed on committee.

VDB is out of form and he doesn’t fit into how we play which is why he looks so lost. He can turn it round although personally I do struggle to see how he fits in with our playing style and our other midfielders.

From what I read, transfer targets are selected by the transfer committee. Not by the manager alone.

VDB certainly wasn't pushed by the board on Ole.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...fer-news/man-utd-vande-beek-transfer-18908515
Sounds very much like Ole was all in for the signing, and I'm sure we will see more of him in due course. He's one for next season - Ole has hinted this himself. When Pogba goes we will likely see more of him.

 

[Bristol_Red_87]

Actually, I don't see why Donny's ability to make good runs and nifty little plays around the box should not be an asset that fits very well with how this team plays. But we don't seem to have unlocked that yet. I've thought the same thing that many others have pointed out, that he's constantly making good runs, but his teammates don't seem to use them as much as they should.

This. It's easy to criticise him but the amount of times he made intelligent runs off the ball last night and never got the ball was incredible.

At one point he peeled off into the right channel and clapped his hands for the pass to come. The ball just went sideways. He just looked at the ground.

No wonder he looks lost, he is used to playing in a side that progress quickly up the pitch with incision. We progress up the field by slowly pulling teams across the pitch with laborious switches of play.

Our style of play simply doesn't suit him.

 

[horsechoker]

He's an aries and I think that's part of why he isn't doing well.

Ole is a pisces so his aquatic energy is conflicting with Donny's ram like mentality.

Grealish is a virgo which is a much better fit.

 

[Andersonson]

I'd rather play Lingard.

 

[dinostar77]

no, let’s not move on, let’s educate ourselves....



Ole HAS A VETO, but the transfer committee also can veto Ole if they don’t like someone on his list.

This committee all came about because of the shambolic recruitment from Moyes, LVG to Mourinho, with managers requesting players that clearly people in the recruitment did not agree with.

Stand corrected. Now lets move on

 

[KirkDuyt]

Everyone's played with someone like that. It's so rare to see someone with the brains and the physique. Imagine Juan Mata's brain in Romelu Lukaku's body for instance! The closest person to Donny in possible playstyle is, ironically, Juan Mata but that seems to be a type of player that doesn't really get utilised anymore.

That season at Chelsea when he was named player of the season is a level Donny will never match honestly. He's much more direct. Pass and move, that's all he does. Mata is much more creative isnt he?

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

Ole HAS A VETO, but the transfer committee also can veto Ole if they don’t like someone on his list.

This committee all came about because of the shambolic recruitment from Moyes, LVG to Mourinho, with managers requesting players that clearly people in the recruitment did not agree with.
.

It is very obvious that Ole and the Football Experts within the club (scouts, recruitment, coaches, etc...) decide on who will be a transfer target and how important is the target, Ole as the Manager/Head Coach has a "Veto", which means he would never get a player he never wants in the first place, the recruitment/scouting Team has a veto to make sure Ole doesn't go unchallenged or Ole listens to what the experts tell him.

Ed & Judge only veto in terms of financial viability, which is a non-football decision, and that is what they should do, they are also in charge of negotiation of transfer fees and player's contract, again a non-footballing decision.

so in that regard, its very evident as you said, Ole signed off 100% on VdB coming to Manchester United, and even if VdB flops, it doesn't mean its all doom and gloom, some transfers fail, no manager has 100% success record of signing players, what is needed is to get 80-90% success record, and so far, I would say Ole's signings are more or less in the 80%-90% success rate so far.


Regarding DvB's performance last vs Westham, he wasn't good at all, not even decent, didn't offer anything, can't say it's him or how the team plays not suiting him and its not working at all, but regardless of the reasons, he must impose himself more than what he is doing now.

Let's hope that it is only time that he needs.

 

[GazTheLegend]

That season at Chelsea when he was named player of the season is a level Donny will never match honestly. He's much more direct. Pass and move, that's all he does. Mata is much more creative isnt he?

Sort of but Mata doesn't really do all the long range passing - Mata is fantastic from dead ball situations though.

 

[KetilOwren88]

Didnt’t he start CM when we played Soton away? Same with Istanbul and I think it’s no coincidence that’s been his two best games. Meulensteen said DVB easilly can play as one of the two CM’s and he knows a thing or two about football. I think it’s important not to forget that DVB plays without Bruno most of the time and I want to see them playing more together. The problem is that there is no way he will play CM with Scottie’s current form. I actually fear for him. Completely dry of confidence

 

[SuperiorXI]

He's an aries and I think that's part of why he isn't doing well.

Ole is a pisces so his aquatic energy is conflicting with Donny's ram like mentality.

Grealish is a virgo which is a much better fit.

Struggle to understand why some can't see this...

 

[justsomebloke]

He's an aries and I think that's part of why he isn't doing well.

Ole is a pisces so his aquatic energy is conflicting with Donny's ram like mentality.

Grealish is a virgo which is a much better fit.

Also, he's obviously not using the right crystals. Incredible that a team of United's stature doesn't have a proven crystals coach. Just goes to show what a shitshow this club is, we'll never win anything with this bunch at the helm.

 

[DWelbz19]

He's an aries and I think that's part of why he isn't doing well.

Ole is a pisces so his aquatic energy is conflicting with Donny's ram like mentality.

Grealish is a virgo which is a much better fit.

Good point. Aries are fire elements, whilst Ole is a clear water man. I haven’t researched the moon signs but my guess is more middling Taurus aspects.

 

[Bobcat]

How come people believe that VdB was forced onto Ole by the Board? Why on Earth would they spend a lot of money in a player who is not really needed during pandemic time? I am sure VdB has been purchased at Ole's request and thus Ole does need to bear responsibility for getting the most out of him. As Ole himself said previously no player can come into the team or leave it without his final say.

Maybe they thought they were making a bargain? In either case hes been poorly scouted because its pretty fecking mental to spend 40 million on a 6th choice CM and/or a no 10 that never plays or does not fit the role

 

[RUCK4444]

Did he play last night? I didn't notice.

Nah tad harsh. He's a totally different player to Bruno, his second season could be a lot better, some take a lot longer to settle in than others. Example is Fred, woeful when he first got here and slowly came into his own.

I stick by what I said when we signed him though, he's not better than what we have in our starting 11 so at best he's a high level rotation player. The type of player that is capable of playing himself into a good run of form and breaking into the starting 11. But on the whole he is a level below Bruno so his time on the pitch is going to be limited, and why wouldn't it be in that situation? You play your best players for each position.

Ultimately if he's stuck on the bench that means Bruno is doing well, which in reality is the best scenario for us as a club and fans.

 

[troylocker]

Got his chance to show what he's got in the #10 position yesterday, but he blew it. He lacks confidence, creativity, hides to much, allways has his back to the goal, picks the backwards pass too often and doesn't take risks. He made one progressive pass the entire match and actually managed to spin his way back to kill off an attack when he finally got the ball facing the goal with some space in front of him once. He looks miles behind Bruno in that position and we should probably find a role for him that suits his strenght better. I'm sure there's a player in there somerwhere.

 

[Mcking]

A shadow striker playing as CAM whilst arguably our one and only central creative player is on the bench most of the time VDB starts a game.

A shadow striker needs someone to pick his runs up. When bruno is not playing we are stuck with Matic, Fred, Mctomminay and Pogba - do you remember how hard it was for them to create chances or make a pass that breaks the defensive line?

VDB isnt a chance creator but he is a chance taker from AM.

Just because you dont see it doesnt mean we are playing to his strengths- literally half the forum was saying how we play to individual strengths - so when you see VDB making runs and no one is picking him out; you have one more player playing to his strength and not getting the benefits of a system of passing, pressing and position.

He is a shadow striker simply because he played and was useless. Making runs is not a strength we have to play to. Every player makes runs that don't get picked up multiple times each game, yet it doesn't stop them from bringing something to the game.

He offers feck all to a team as a footballer at this level, and the more he plays, the more it will become obvious. He is lucky that he's had the bench to hide behind this season.

 

[OldTrevil]

I would try him as a 8 alongside Fred or McT against low level teams

 

[Stacks]

This. It's easy to criticise him but the amount of times he made intelligent runs off the ball last night and never got the ball was incredible.

At one point he peeled off into the right channel and clapped his hands for the pass to come. The ball just went sideways. He just looked at the ground.

No wonder he looks lost, he is used to playing in a side that progress quickly up the pitch with incision. We progress up the field by slowly pulling teams across the pitch with laborious switches of play.

Our style of play simply doesn't suit him.

He too is guilty of missing players runs and passing sideways. I remember we had players in the box and he was at the edge but rather than chip it in he just turned backwards and passed. Bruno and Pogba have no issue finding players with incision and finding runners.