Donkai Havertz | Arsenal Watch

Mount also did well at Chelsea.

Havertz is just a shit player. Unless you read the stats like @Zehner , in which case you'll realise he's even shitter.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
The 2 signings have nothing in common, apart from being former Chelsea players, so yes, it's a terrible take.

Havertz has looked genuinely poor for Arsenal, Mount has barely played for us and his performances have so far been good (but misjudged and misunderstood by the online fan base). Mount is very likely going to be a good player for our tactical set-up, whereas Havertz just disrupts what Arsenal were doing. One is a fairly logical, straightforward recruit considering what Ten Hag is trying to do, the other is just plain bizarre.

Completely different scenarios and, yes, very bizarre take.
Click to expand...
I'm ready for Mount to have a successful career here but his two performances so far have not been good.
 
The Corinthian said:
Mount also did well at Chelsea.

Havertz is just a shit player. Unless you read the stats like @Zehner , in which case you'll realise he's even shitter.
Click to expand...

Speaking of stats. Heard an interesting one about Havertz. Apparently last season he was was the second worst player in the whole of Premier League in terms of converting xG to G (568th out of 569) The worst? Eddie Nketiah.
 
redcucumber said:
I'm ready for Mount to have a successful career here but his two performances so far have not been good.
Click to expand...
They definitely weren't bad, and were promising in terms of what they showed is possible with him tactically. Out of possession, he was probably our best player in both those games.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
They definitely weren't bad, and were promising in terms of what they showed is possible with him tactically. Out of possession, he was probably our best player in both those games.
Click to expand...

His off the ball movement was okay in those two games, but he simply didnt receive the ball much. When Eriksen replaced him he was far more involved and fitted way better.

I still got plenty of patience for Mount however. Would be nice to ease him in against midtable sides and in cup competitions, but when Casemiro is not playing well defensively then both Mount and Bruno needs to be firing of all cylinders. It’s a bit of an awkward match so far.
 
The Corinthian said:
Mount also did well at Chelsea.

Havertz is just a shit player. Unless you read the stats like @Zehner , in which case you'll realise he's even shitter.
Click to expand...

He's shit if you expect hero football from your midfielder :) How does that work for United if I may ask?
 
Mount does not fit us as much as Havertz doesn't fit Arsenal. Both are CAM's but are being played deeper than their best position.Mount for 60m is definitely not value than Havertz for 70m, but Mount had one year left while Havertz had multiple, so you could consider that.

I have a lot more hope for Mount at us than Havertz at Arsenal, as much as I would like Havertz to do well since he is German. Havertz has hit a mental wall and I don't think he'll recover from there in the EPL. I also doubt how well he'll do in another team in another league. Just looks a player devoid of confidence.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
Mount does not fit us as much as Havertz doesn't fit Arsenal. Both are CAM's but are being played deeper than their best position.Mount for 60m is definitely not value than Havertz for 70m, but Mount had one year left while Havertz had multiple, so you could consider that.

I have a lot more hope for Mount at us than Havertz at Arsenal, as much as I would like Havertz to do well since he is German. Havertz has hit a mental wall and I don't think he'll recover from there in the EPL. I also doubt how well he'll do in another team in another league. Just looks a player devoid of confidence.
Click to expand...

Sancho'd.

I think momentum is so important for a young players trajectory. Once you lose it, you're not really going to make it back. The likes of Bellingham and Haaland have shown that you need to wait and only make the right moves, or you'll end up hampering yourself long term.
 
Skills said:
Sancho'd.

I think momentum is so important for a young players trajectory. Once you lose it, you're not really going to make it back. The likes of Bellingham and Haaland have shown that you need to wait and only make the right moves, or you'll end up hampering yourself long term.
Click to expand...

Yea, there are many players just within the Bundesliga who struggled after a big move and never regained the ability they had prior to the move. Werner doesn't start anymore for Leipzig after being their best player when he left, Kagawa struggled to start at Dortmund when he returned after United and similarly Sahin too didn't play with the same ability.

Havertz just got stuck in a bad situation at Chelsea with new managers and having to play on different positions. World class players would adjust though but he doesn't seem to have the mental strength to get himself out of this rut.
 
Skills said:
Sancho'd.

I think momentum is so important for a young players trajectory. Once you lose it, you're not really going to make it back. The likes of Bellingham and Haaland have shown that you need to wait and only make the right moves, or you'll end up hampering yourself long term.
Click to expand...
It’s a bit painful to watch, at times. It’s got to the point where I’m looking ahead to our first game against a newly promoted side (Oct 28th) in the hopes he can do a bit of flat-track bullying. I’ve never seen a player at Arsenal so in need of a goal.
 
Daydreamer said:
It’s a bit painful to watch, at times. It’s got to the point where I’m looking ahead to our first game against a newly promoted side (Oct 28th) in the hopes he can do a bit of flat-track bullying. I’ve never seen a player at Arsenal so in need of a goal.
Click to expand...

Arteta should stick him up front. I don’t know why he hasn’t done this yet, even if it’s just a mid game position change. He knows the false 9 role. He’s pretty comfortable in it and he’ll get goals there. Not a huge amount but he was usually good for 8-11 goals per season playing there for us.
 
WeePat said:
Arteta should stick him up front. I don’t know why he hasn’t done this yet, even if it’s just a mid game position change. He knows the false 9 role. He’s pretty comfortable in it and he’ll get goals there. Not a huge amount but he was usually good for 8-11 goals per season playing there for us.
Click to expand...
We won the Charity Shield with him up top. We also close out games with him there fairly often. It's weird how much better he is at keeping the ball when playing CF. Maybe it's because with his back to goal he can focus on shielding it and laying it off, so while difficult, a lot of the decision-making is eliminated. Unfortunately, his finishing has been way off and we've already got Jesus and Nketiah wasting chances as it is.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
The 2 signings have nothing in common, apart from being former Chelsea players, so yes, it's a terrible take.

Havertz has looked genuinely poor for Arsenal, Mount has barely played for us and his performances have so far been good (but misjudged and misunderstood by the online fan base). Mount is very likely going to be a good player for our tactical set-up, whereas Havertz just disrupts what Arsenal were doing. One is a fairly logical, straightforward recruit considering what Ten Hag is trying to do, the other is just plain bizarre.

Completely different scenarios and, yes, very bizarre take.
Click to expand...

It's not, both sides wasted money a player from chelsea that is awkward to shoe horn into the first 11 and that money for both teams would have been better served going towards buying a world class striker
 
hasanejaz88 said:
Mount does not fit us as much as Havertz doesn't fit Arsenal. Both are CAM's but are being played deeper than their best position.Mount for 60m is definitely not value than Havertz for 70m, but Mount had one year left while Havertz had multiple, so you could consider that.

I have a lot more hope for Mount at us than Havertz at Arsenal, as much as I would like Havertz to do well since he is German. Havertz has hit a mental wall and I don't think he'll recover from there in the EPL. I also doubt how well he'll do in another team in another league. Just looks a player devoid of confidence.
Click to expand...

Arteta plays Havertz in the same position as Bosz, though? Even the team setup is very similar both to Leverkusen under Bosz and Chelsea under Tuchel (to a lesser extent). Possession oriented system, box midfield, agile striker that leavs spaces open for Havertz to ghost into.

You might be right about the low confidence, though. But it's still early days.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
Yea, there are many players just within the Bundesliga who struggled after a big move and never regained the ability they had prior to the move. Werner doesn't start anymore for Leipzig after being their best player when he left, Kagawa struggled to start at Dortmund when he returned after United and similarly Sahin too didn't play with the same ability.

Havertz just got stuck in a bad situation at Chelsea with new managers and having to play on different positions. World class players would adjust though but he doesn't seem to have the mental strength to get himself out of this rut.
Click to expand...

I do not think it is just the mental strength. When you look at his values at understat - he was never in that world class category to begin with. The year he scored the 17 goals (14 without penalties) he was performing his xG with 5 or 6. Last season he was underperforming in the other directions. Sometimes you are lucky - some years you are not.

They come pretty much developed out of the academies. There is so many that do not really get much better after 2 or 3 years with the adults.
 
Zehner said:
Arteta plays Havertz in the same position as Bosz, though? Even the team setup is very similar both to Leverkusen under Bosz and Chelsea under Tuchel (to a lesser extent). Possession oriented system, box midfield, agile striker that leavs spaces open for Havertz to ghost into.

You might be right about the low confidence, though. But it's still early days.
Click to expand...

Didn't Brandt play in a deeper position with Havertz further forward? I don't remember Havertz playing as a CM but mostly as a furthest midfielder.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
Yea, there are many players just within the Bundesliga who struggled after a big move and never regained the ability they had prior to the move. Werner doesn't start anymore for Leipzig after being their best player when he left, Kagawa struggled to start at Dortmund when he returned after United and similarly Sahin too didn't play with the same ability.

Havertz just got stuck in a bad situation at Chelsea with new managers and having to play on different positions. World class players would adjust though but he doesn't seem to have the mental strength to get himself out of this rut.
Click to expand...

He just seems quite phlegmatic, like he's created a zone of comfort around his current struggles.
I think it may be in part related to the atmosphere in which he came up in: when he did well he got loads of hype, when he didn't no one really seemed to notice. A bit like as if there were barely any people watching his team's games in full to see the things that didn't make it into the highlights. And even at Chelsea or for Germany he's been getting way "too much" playtime for someone, who seems so far away from his best.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
Didn't Brandt play in a deeper position with Havertz further forward? I don't remember Havertz playing as a CM but mostly as a furthest midfielder.
Click to expand...

They played as two advanced midfielders before one or two CMs (Baumgartlinger and Aranguiz). Also found themselves on the wings quite a lot during build up. I think there are clear patterns for when he works best. He has an agile striker in front of him who makes many supporting ones ans drags out defensers (Volland, Werner) and CAM/CM partner besides him who is great at linking up and good at dribbling in tight spaces (Brandt, to a lesser extent Mount). On paper, he's got that at Arsenal now as well with Ödegaard and Gabriel Jesus. I think Arteta's plan is very good. Which doesn't mean it will work because as you say he seems shot of confidence. But on paper, Arsenal's idea with Havertz seems to be more thought through than United's with Mount.

I think the biggest misconception at the time of his signing was that Havertz is a variable player, similar to Sancho.


do.ob said:
He just seems quite phlegmatic, like he's created a zone of comfort around his current struggles.
I think it may be in part related to the atmosphere in which he came up in: when he did well he got loads of hype, when he didn't no one really seemed to notice. A bit like as if there were barely any people watching his team's games in full to see the things that didn't make it into the highlights. And even at Chelsea or for Germany he's been getting way "too much" playtime for someone, who seems so far away from his best.
Click to expand...

You talk so much about mentality, you could be a Doppelpass pundit. Or Edin Terzic.

It doesn't even seem to bother you that you're wrong all the time, you just keep going.
 
We might have new resident MadWinger on Caf, but not limited to a player but entirety of Buli :lol:
 
Looking as uninterested as ever... Not sure he attempted an actual sprint this half. Let's trust the process !
 
Does he still hide in the game as usual? Did he even touch the ball 10 times in the first half?
 
ThierryHenry14 said:
Does he still hide in the game as usual? Did he even touch the ball 10 times in the first half?
Click to expand...

27 passes in the first half, only Jorginho and the defenders have more, but others in the team are very close (1 or 2 pass difference).

No key passes or dribbles though, so might be just ineffective on offense.
 
CannonBalls said:
He is actually a good penalty taker actually.
Jorginho/Odegaard are our best ones.
But I would put him in our top 5 I think.
Click to expand...

For sure, he’s good. He was our main pen taker after we sold Jorginho. It was just reference to him being treated like a make a wish kid charity case :D
 
WeePat said:
For sure, he’s good. He was our main pen taker after we sold Jorginho. It was just reference to him being treated like a make a wish kid charity case :D
Click to expand...

I was thinking the same thing, "He's low on confidence" "This will kick start his Arsenal career".
How do they know that?. He's played like that for 3 seasons even after winning a CL. Not a confidence thing its just a lack of ability.
 
jakko said:
I was thinking the same thing, "He's low on confidence" "This will kick start his Arsenal career".
How do they know that?. He's played like that for 3 seasons even after winning a CL. Not a confidence thing its just a lack of ability.
Click to expand...
For me it's the trust in Arteta. He hasn't really put a foot wrong in transfers and I don't think he'd spend so much in Kai if he didn't think he would fit into his vision. By the same token, he is due a blunder so maybe Havertz is it. At least Havertz's underwhelming start isn't costing us and we've started the season well. I have faith (or am delusional) that Arteta will figure it out.
 
jakko said:
I was thinking the same thing, "He's low on confidence" "This will kick start his Arsenal career".
How do they know that?. He's played like that for 3 seasons even after winning a CL. Not a confidence thing its just a lack of ability.
Click to expand...

Good thing is the team is so good that we seem to be getting favourable results playing with 10 men if you go by the opinions of many.

Imagine how good we’d be if we played with 11 most weeks!
 
It's going to take more than one penalty to get this guy back on track. It's his whole general demeanor. More important than the penalty was the reaction from his teammates celebrating with him. That is something he probably needed. He just casts a lonely figure out there and he seems visually content with that...i say visually because of course i have no idea what he is going on in him.

It was probably a big relief for him... hopefully one step forward with many more to go.
 
GoonerGirly said:
For me it's the trust in Arteta. He hasn't really put a foot wrong in transfers and I don't think he'd spend so much in Kai if he didn't think he would fit into his vision. By the same token, he is due a blunder so maybe Havertz is it. At least Havertz's underwhelming start isn't costing us and we've started the season well. I have faith (or am delusional) that Arteta will figure it out.
Click to expand...

Even Pep, Sir Alex, etc. make mistakes with signings so I don't think its necessarily a terrible reflection on Arteta either way.

It's how he deals with it if it starts costing you results. I think Arteta will end up dropping him or at least reducing his role somewhat. At the moment it doesn't really matter as you're still winning games.

Maybe he'll come good but there's not much evidence to suggest that will happen. My dad and a couple of mates are Chelsea fans/ST holders and they were baffled that you signed him.
 
noodlehair said:
Even Pep, Sir Alex, etc. make mistakes with signings so I don't think its necessarily a terrible reflection on Arteta either way.

It's how he deals with it if it starts costing you results. I think Arteta will end up dropping him or at least reducing his role somewhat. At the moment it doesn't really matter as you're still winning games.

Maybe he'll come good but there's not much evidence to suggest that will happen. My dad and a couple of mates are Chelsea fans/ST holders and they were baffled that you signed him.
Click to expand...
He has dropped him in a couple of games and started Vieira (against Everton and Spurs) and has said he should have scored by now (before Bournemouth game). So Arteta does want more from him and will drop him if required. Yeh everyone is baffled we signed him for that price.
 
I will say he looked a lot better yesterday. It was Bournemouth but still. Actually had the confidence to take a shot and almost had a delicious assist to Nketiah but the defender made an interception.
 
He could have a few assists by now to be honest if there was some better finishing at the end of it. People don't tend to remember nearlys...but we do remember him fluffing from 6-8 yards out. Still quite underwhelming overall of course.
 
GoonerGirly said:
For me it's the trust in Arteta. He hasn't really put a foot wrong in transfers and I don't think he'd spend so much in Kai if he didn't think he would fit into his vision. By the same token, he is due a blunder so maybe Havertz is it. At least Havertz's underwhelming start isn't costing us and we've started the season well. I have faith (or am delusional) that Arteta will figure it out.
Click to expand...

Havertz doesn't have the attributes to change anything. 4th season in England i struggle to give you any good on the ball attributes he has.
 
jakko said:
Havertz doesn't have the attributes to change anything. 4th season in England i struggle to give you any good on the ball attributes he has.
Click to expand...

Interestingly, with his goal today - and that video above is both hilarious and savage - Havertz does have more EPL goals in the month of September than the entire Chelsea squad.
 
Last edited:
Buckie said:
Interestingly, with his goal today - and that video above is both hilarious and savage - Havertz does have more EPL goals in the month of September than the entire Chelsea squad.
Click to expand...
WTF... I didn't follow them closely, is it really that bad? :lol:
 
Buckie said:
Interestingly, with his goal today - and that video above is both hilarious and savage - Havertz does have more EPL goals in the month of September than the entire Chelsea squad.
Click to expand...

To be fair, I have the same number of EPL goals as Chelsea in September.

Back to Havertz though, he also has more Champions League winners medals than Arsenal have in their entire history. He's a marvel!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.