Donald Trump - GUILTY!

Kentonio said:
What you seem to be missing is that there's more than one way to win. Even if you can't force the Republicans to vote for conviction, what you can do is build pressure to the point where their supporters who are not firmly in the Trump base start to turn against the leadership creating even deeper factional splits than are already present. The Capitol attack caused a shockwave, and if the Democrats were smarter and braver they'd have capitalized on it to the fullest. Instead they've (yet again) allowed the Republicans to set the narrative and wriggle out from under the issue.
Click to expand...
Turning against leadership is happening regardless of impeachment trial. It escalated dramatically after Jan 6.
 
The Firestarter said:
Turning against leadership is happening regardless of impeachment trial. It escalated dramatically after Jan 6.
Click to expand...

Yes, which was the moment to turn up the pressure even further. Instead the Democrats allowed it to ease off like the useless feckers they inevitably are.
 
Kentonio said:
Yes, which was the moment to turn up the pressure even further. Instead the Democrats allowed it to ease off like the useless feckers they inevitably are.
Click to expand...
OK, how would you "turn up the pressure" if you were the democratic mastermind and Pelosi, Schumer , etc followed your orders.
 
Kentonio said:
What you seem to be missing is that there's more than one way to win. Even if you can't force the Republicans to vote for conviction, what you can do is build pressure to the point where their supporters who are not firmly in the Trump base start to turn against the leadership creating even deeper factional splits than are already present. The Capitol attack caused a shockwave, and if the Democrats were smarter and braver they'd have capitalized on it to the fullest. Instead they've (yet again) allowed the Republicans to set the narrative and wriggle out from under the issue.
Click to expand...

You overestimate the number of GOP voters not in Trump's camp.
 
sport2793 said:
You overestimate the number of GOP voters not in Trump's camp.
Click to expand...

Even if it's only 5% (just for example) that's enough to deal the GOP fatal blows in many election races if such voters sit on their hands or vote independent (or even Dem).

The Trumpite base greatly over-estimate their political power ... except for their power to damage the GOP. In 4 years they've managed to lose both the Senate and the Presidency. It's not going to get any better for them.
 
The Firestarter said:
OK, how would you "turn up the pressure" if you were the democratic mastermind and Pelosi, Schumer , etc followed your orders.
Click to expand...

Step 1: Carefully managed use of the media putting the GOP senators on the spot both nationally and in their own states. Every day the same messaging, 'Do think the man who incited this insurrection and almost got the VP killed should be let off scot free?', 'Do you think being president should mean you're above the law, even when it comes to trying to overthrow the government?' etc etc
Step 2: Don't say stupid shit to the media like you're thinking about pushing back sending the articles of impeachment to the senate until its more politically convenient. The second they did that they lost the momentum and turned it into a partisan thing.
Step 3: Don't work with Mitch McConnell in the idiotic naive belief that he will help you in any goddamn way.
Step 4: Don't allow the Republicans to change the goddamn narrative over and over. It's the same shit Trump got away with for 4 years, and if the Dem leadership can't see the pattern now then they should feck off into retirement.
 
Kentonio said:
Step 1: Carefully managed use of the media putting the GOP senators on the spot both nationally and in their own states. Every day the same messaging, 'Do think the man who incited this insurrection and almost got the VP killed should be let off scot free?', 'Do you think being president should mean you're above the law, even when it comes to trying to overthrow the government?' etc etc
Step 2: Don't say stupid shit to the media like you're thinking about pushing back sending the articles of impeachment to the senate until its more politically convenient. The second they did that they lost the momentum and turned it into a partisan thing.
Step 3: Don't work with Mitch McConnell in the idiotic naive belief that he will help you in any goddamn way.
Step 4: Don't allow the Republicans to change the goddamn narrative over and over. It's the same shit Trump got away with for 4 years, and if the Dem leadership can't see the pattern now then they should feck off into retirement.
Click to expand...
What you are describing was basically a non-starter, and wouldn’t change anything if it came to pass. It is an odd thing to fuss over.
 
The worrying issue for the GOP is Texas turning blue. If it goes blue, they're fecked in all sorts of ways and you'll probably never see the GOP win again in its current guise. It will need to become for more progressive to sway voters back towards them but given American's and their underlying christian bullshit, I dont think its going to happen. Dems need to win next two elections and then the political landscape of the US will change forever. Its just getting through these 8 years.

This is what I find amusing about Cruz and Hawley. They're literally trying to appeal to a dwindling power base. Short term gain to completely feck themselves over. Literally win or bust at the next election.
 
mariachi-19 said:
The worrying issue for the GOP is Texas turning blue. If it goes blue, they're fecked in all sorts of ways and you'll probably never see the GOP win again in its current guise. It will need to become for more progressive to sway voters back towards them but given American's and their underlying christian bullshit, I dont think its going to happen. Dems need to win next two elections and then the political landscape of the US will change forever. Its just getting through these 8 years.

This is what I find amusing about Cruz and Hawley. They're literally trying to appeal to a dwindling power base. Short term gain to completely feck themselves over. Literally win or bust at the next election.
Click to expand...
Basically because Cruz only cares on 2024 and 2028 elections. If he doesn't win the 2024 primaries he will never have another chance. And is not only Texas, the more populated the US is, the bigger are the cities on each State therefore, more progressive. GOP will need to change and they will
 
Organic Potatoes said:
What you are describing was basically a non-starter, and wouldn’t change anything if it came to pass. It is an odd thing to fuss over.
Click to expand...

It's not a non-starter its just the logical approach to take to stop the Republicans walking all over the Democrats, which in case you missed it they've been doing for the last 12 years. Seriously, do you think the Democrats are doing a good job? Do you think them allowing this extremist Republican movement to repeatedly win both house and senate and even put a twat like Donald fecking Trump in the White House is some sign of brilliance? Think about that for a minute, the Democrats have been so fecking shite that Donald J motherfecking Trump was elected President.
 
Kentonio said:
Step 1: Carefully managed use of the media putting the GOP senators on the spot both nationally and in their own states. Every day the same messaging, 'Do think the man who incited this insurrection and almost got the VP killed should be let off scot free?', 'Do you think being president should mean you're above the law, even when it comes to trying to overthrow the government?' etc etc
Step 2: Don't say stupid shit to the media like you're thinking about pushing back sending the articles of impeachment to the senate until its more politically convenient. The second they did that they lost the momentum and turned it into a partisan thing.
Step 3: Don't work with Mitch McConnell in the idiotic naive belief that he will help you in any goddamn way.
Step 4: Don't allow the Republicans to change the goddamn narrative over and over. It's the same shit Trump got away with for 4 years, and if the Dem leadership can't see the pattern now then they should feck off into retirement.
Click to expand...
The point you are missing is that rep base does not watch CNN or NBC . They watch Fox, OAN and Newsmax. And you wont get that "putting on the spot" there. What you get there is non stop drivel about flase flag operations and election fraud. So , in a country with a normal political discourse : yes, certainly. But there wouldnt be a need for it in the first place.

What was needed was fairness regulation in the cable media before the Internet took off for streaming news services and "influencing". Now it is too late for that.
 
The Firestarter said:
The point you are missing is that rep base does not watch CNN or NBC . They watch Fox, OAN and Newsmax. And you wont get that "putting on the spot" there. What you get there is non stop drivel about flase flag operations and election fraud. So , in a country with a normal political discourse : yes, certainly. But there wouldnt be a need for it in the first place.

What was needed was fairness regulation in the cable media before the Internet took off for streaming news services and "influencing". Now it is too late for that.
Click to expand...

I'm not talking about the hardcore base, they're unreachable and feck them anyway. But not all Republicans are extremists, and that FOX audience is much more reachable. FOX (outside its opinion cnuts like Hannity et al) still shows real news, and isn't as radically skewed to the right as trash like Newsmax and OAN.
 
Kentonio said:
I'm not talking about the hardcore base, they're unreachable and feck them anyway. But not all Republicans are extremists, and that FOX audience is much more reachable. FOX (outside its opinion cnuts like Hannity et al) still shows real news, and isn't as radically skewed to the right as trash like Newsmax and OAN.
Click to expand...
Yes they show news during day time. No one cares about those. What they care is what Hannity, Carlson and that cnut Ingraham say.
 
The only reason you're saying that about FOX is that there are now popular stations who have outflanked FOX on the right. Basically they've successfuly moved the Overton window.

FOX are vile, and they are very much to blame for Trumpism.
 
Fox is the f*cking underlying cause of all this mess. Without that outlet, or if they'd operated with a shred of humanity, the radicalisation would never have broken out of the extremes into, literally, 90% of the party.

F*ck Fox, Murdoch has genuinely done more damage to humanity than probably any other single human being alive today.
 
Beachryan said:
Fox is the f*cking underlying cause of all this mess. Without that outlet, or if they'd operated with a shred of humanity, the radicalisation would never have broken out of the extremes into, literally, 90% of the party.

F*ck Fox, Murdoch has genuinely done more damage to humanity than probably any other single human being alive today.
Click to expand...
Totally agree. But I would add the biggest social media bosses on that pile as well for their role in the unchecked spread of bile the last 15 years.
 
Beachryan said:
Fox is the f*cking underlying cause of all this mess. Without that outlet, or if they'd operated with a shred of humanity, the radicalisation would never have broken out of the extremes into, literally, 90% of the party.

F*ck Fox, Murdoch has genuinely done more damage to humanity than probably any other single human being alive today.
Click to expand...

Not sure if Fox is the 'underlying cause', they are 1 of a number of outlets not owned by the Murdochs. You also have the Sinclair broadcast group (touted as a competitor of Fox) that puts out the same propoganda as Fox and apparently now reaches 40% of US households. Then there's the Mercer family who fund breitbart, cambridge analytica & parler amoung other alt-right organisations around the world. Russia's 'Internet Research Agency' was set up in 2013 to start pushing out the same rhetorics around social media.

There are crazies in every country and those that enable them, are they all just people/organisations with common interests or is there something/someone lying underneath orcastrating it all? Who knows.
 
Simbo said:
Not sure if Fox is the 'underlying cause', they are 1 of a number of outlets not owned by the Murdochs. You also have the Sinclair broadcast group (touted as a competitor of Fox) that puts out the same propoganda as Fox and apparently now reaches 40% of US households. Then there's the Mercer family who fund breitbart, cambridge analytica & parler amoung other alt-right organisations around the world. Russia's 'Internet Research Agency' was set up in 2013 to start pushing out the same rhetorics around social media.

There are crazies in every country and those that enable them, are they all just people/organisations with common interests or is there something/someone lying underneath orcastrating it all? Who knows.
Click to expand...
Fox is where everything started, so they deserve being called on it.
 
The Firestarter said:
Fox is where everything started, so they deserve being called on it.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that was my take too. There's always been talk radio, crazy redtops etc, but Fox News was the first mass-consumed, available to all (almost) proganda channel dressed up as news. The thing I don't get it is simple: for what? Murdoch is and was already fabulously rich. What did he gain by poisoning those most at risk in society? What an evil man. I wish him a long and suffering old age, I hope he hurts from the moment he wakes til the moment he sleeps - badly - and that it lasts a really long time.
 
Grinner said:
Rubbish.

Read about Lee Atwater.
Click to expand...
Regardless of political strategies , do you see the same outcome if no mass media country wide networks such of the Fox kind existed? Because it served as a megaphone for that strategy , providing no opposition counterpoints , and masking opinion shows as news.
 
The Firestarter said:
Regardless of political strategies , do you see the same outcome if no mass media country wide networks such of the Fox kind existed? Because it served as a megaphone for that strategy , providing no opposition counterpoints , and masking opinion shows as news.
Click to expand...

What are the viewing figures for people like Hannity?
 
Grinner said:
What are the viewing figures for people like Hannity?
Click to expand...
From this :

Fox’s Hannity ended the quarter as the highest-rated show in cable news, and delivered the biggest quarterly ratings in the show’s history, with an average total audience of 4.454 million viewers. Overall, Fox News had four of the top five highest-rated shows in cable news, with Hannity followed by Tucker Carlson Tonight (4.351 million viewers), The Five (3.483 million viewers), and The Ingraham Angle (3.430 million viewers). MSNBC’s The Rachel Maddow Show finished in fifth place overall as the highest-rated non-FNC program, with an average total audience of 3.302 million viewers.
Click to expand...


EDIT: I think Hannity numbers have taken a nose dive post election, with the concern being that these people have gone to Newsmax and OANN.
 
MrMarcello said:
I'd argue hate talk radio was the initial start. Fox came along and provided an image to the right wing talking points as TV is the focal point of the family over radio.
Click to expand...

It's been interesting listening to the evolution of talk radio. I was a huge consumer of it back in the late 90's, early 2000's as I had long commutes to/from college and work. Hannity/Beck/Larry Elder (LA host) and a few others were the prime time guys. If I go back in my memory I don't think they were anywhere near this radical. Especially Beck. His "(d)evolution" over the years has been extraordinary. I think they saw a niche and went for it and then saw that moving further and further right increased their listener base in a way that staying slight right never would have.

You just need to look at Beck's first TV show on HLN vs where he is now. Or better yet, remember that Hannity's TV show started out as Hannity and Colmes. Over the years you saw Hannity go more and more batshit, to the point where Colmes quit. It did not start that way.

PS. Coast to Coast with Art Bell was the best radio show of all time.
 
Where the hell has Trump disappeared to? I was expecting more exposure by now. I know he's banned on social media but he's got his kids' access. Use Barron's account FFS. I'm getting bored.
 
WI_Red said:
It's been interesting listening to the evolution of talk radio. I was a huge consumer of it back in the late 90's, early 2000's as I had long commutes to/from college and work. Hannity/Beck/Larry Elder (LA host) and a few others were the prime time guys. If I go back in my memory I don't think they were anywhere near this radical. Especially Beck. His "(d)evolution" over the years has been extraordinary. I think they saw a niche and went for it and then saw that moving further and further right increased their listener base in a way that staying slight right never would have.

You just need to look at Beck's first TV show on HLN vs where he is now. Or better yet, remember that Hannity's TV show started out as Hannity and Colmes. Over the years you saw Hannity go more and more batshit, to the point where Colmes quit. It did not start that way.

PS. Coast to Coast with Art Bell was the best radio show of all time.
Click to expand...
Agree across the board. As @Grinner mentioned with Savage above, all of these current firebrands started ‘somewhat’ normally. I remember listening to Savage, Beck, even Liddy, back in college & immediately afterword due to long distances driving for school or work. They obviously were to the right politically, but they were actually palatable & could be listened to for long stretches without being batshit or dangerous. Hell, I even called into Liddy a couple
of times you right after the OKC bombing to argue with him about his obvious anti-Muslim mindset & his / his callers jumping to immediate initial conclusions that the bombing had to have been done by a non-white. The platforms actually had some semblance of an ability to handle responses from the other side & engage in debate. But that no longer occurs.

Hate radio often fills the multi-hour voids between the prime time viewings of Fox, it is more of a cause of radicalization in my mind than Fox et al. It offers the continual, repetitive inundation of batshittery in order for it to truly work & be effective. And it succeeded. It allows for anyone on the right to suckle at the teat of right wing hate, no matter the socio-economic standing of that person. No one needs (nor needed) cable or the internet, just having an AM radio allows them to tap straight into the vein & feel the rush of radicalization. Fox et al just allow for cultivation & a culturing of the hateful mental deficients, it certainly isn’t the root cause or the gateway for the vast majority of them.

And, C2C during the Art Bell era was as good as AM radio has been in my life. He would do everything & any topic & he even would answer the incoming calls himself. A few years ago, the current C2C under Noory has become horrible especially with the obvious bent of all the forced religious horseshit that became vogue. It became another version of the hate radio it did so well to avoid becoming for decades.
 
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/29/trump-russia-asset-claims-former-kgb-spy-new-book

Unger, the author of seven books and a former contributing editor for Vanity Fair magazine, said of Trump: “He was an asset. It was not this grand, ingenious plan that we’re going to develop this guy and 40 years later he’ll be president. At the time it started, which was around 1980, the Russians were trying to recruit like crazy and going after dozens and dozens of people.”

“Trump was the perfect target in a lot of ways: his vanity, narcissism made him a natural target to recruit. He was cultivated over a 40-year period, right up through his election.”
Click to expand...
 
Dumbstar said:
Where the hell has Trump disappeared to? I was expecting more exposure by now. I know he's banned on social media but he's got his kids' access. Use Barron's account FFS. I'm getting bored.
Click to expand...
I would bet he's no longer interested in politics, as he's not part of the show now. He's lost the ego-massages and the money-making opportunities.

I imagine him lounging around in one of those recliners surrounded by hamburder wrappers and empty Diet Coke cans, TV remote in hand, switching aimlessly between Fox News and the cartoons.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.