Dominoes draft

To be fair to the modern softies, the pace of the game today and the defensive organisation of teams makes it impossible to play like these old bastards did. The notion that it's just because the modern players lack the mentality to do it is pretty silly.

There's a reason why it got more and more difficult for the elite players to influence games all over the pitch with every passing decade even though they are in much better physical shape. It's simply impossible to play in today's game like Di Stefano did in the 50's and it's not a question of talent or mentality.

I agree. Also, Di Stefano was part of a legendary team, which allows more freedom: he wasn't the only one public enemy for the opposing team

Whilst I agree to certain extend, things really come way too easy for modern day footballers. They quickly become stars and get paid ridiculous amounts of money which takes away their focus and make them soft.

It's more of a individual drive to build their own legacy, rather than the will to win in the purest form - the one Di Stefano, Cruyff, Maradona, Beckenbauer, Pele etc - had.

I mean, when you look at someone like Di Stefano and his mentality at 35-36 and then players like Dinho, Fenomeno pissing their talent at the age of 20 something is really, really sad.

What really sets apart players like Cruyff, Beckenbauer and Di Stefano is exactly that speed of thought, tactical discipline, reading of the game, coupled with great ambidexterity, stamina and of course natural ability that they possessed. They were not that outstanding as say Maradona, Pele, Fenomeno, who beat them when it comes to pure natural ability, but they could be the whole spine of a team on their own.

A league of their own and Großmeister on the pitch, I'm yet to see a modern player sharing the same traits, or having that mental edge over others. Nowadays players are drilled and trained for being a cog in the whole unit and whilst some have more important part, but they do need the stage to shine and depend more on their natural ability, boosted by fitness regimes and supplements rather than character and mentality.

The game lacks a bit those characters who would take it by the scruff of the neck and turn matches around when things aren't going their way with sheer determination and will to win. Leadership is something that is really underrated today and is what we've really been lacking post Fergie era, coupled of course with other factors.

I agree on the whole even if - as you know - South-American players with a short career peak are not a new story.

The difference between an excellent player and a GOAT is the killer instinct plus a unique way of living/understanding football.

Maradona ~ ghetto instinct
Messi ~ word to be found
Cr7 ~ ultimate competitor (trainings, games..)
...
 
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Looks like it didn’t come around to me after all. I will be at work but I’ll keep an eye out for my turn.
 
Mauro+German+Camoranesi+Italy+2010+FIFA+World+06neKT-v_uyl.jpg


@Oaencha

Can someone update the list please.
 

I know, inappropriate term in hindsight. A player like Henry said he doesn't think like others.

By contrast, brains of players like Lavezzi or Aguero are trivial in a certain sense.
 
  1. 2mufc0/mazhar13 - 1. B. Robson (44) 2. R. Baggio (54) 3. F. Redondo (300) 4. A. Picchi (480) 5. W. Zeman (213) 6. R. Dierckx (519) 7. H. Sanchez (10) 8. J. Boateng (306) 9. P. Montero (75) 10. M. Camoranesi (375)
  2. Cal? - 1. E. Cantona (17) 2. A. Nesta (23) 3. Cafu (7) 4. S. Mazzola (27) 5. F. Binder (74) 6. J. Ceulemans (55) 7. F. Hierro (13) 8. V Kompany (30) 9. E. van der Sar (38) 10. G. Pessotto (375)
  3. Diarm - 1. D. Irwin (72) 2. Ronaldinho (453) 3. G. Batistuta (84) 4. L. Suarez Miramontes (111) 5. R. Schramseis (204) 6. M. Preud'Homme (78) 7. C. Seedorf (76) 8. S. Aguero (62) 9. D. Bergkamp (35) 10. D. Deschamps (24)
  4. Lord Slnister - 1. R. Keane (88) 2. L. Messi (19) 3. D. Maradona (29) 4. S. Kocsis (40) 5. J. Smistik (690) 6. E. Gerets (111) 7. J. Stam (133) 8. D. de Gea (18) 9. R. Pires (39), Tigana(67)
  5. EAP - 1. C. Ronaldo (24) 2. Xavi (257) 3. D. Passarella (46) 4. F. Puskas (158) 5. M. Sindelar (180) 6. R. Gullit (27) 7. D. Simeone (630) 8. C. Fabregas (60) 9. T. Adams (60) 10. B. Lizarazu (84)
  6. Enigma - 1. L. Figo (23) 2. A. Iniesta (1) 3. K.-H. Rummenigge (44) 4. Di Stefano (14) 5. J. Bican (17) 6. F. Rijkaard (14) 7. R. Ayala (48) 8. A. Cole (39) 9. S. Campbell (38) 10. M. Ballack
  7. idmanager - 1. L. Ronaldo (240) 2. T. Henry (40) 3. L. Matthäus (18) 4. F. Gento (30) 5. F. Plánička (24) 6. M. Overmars (330) 7. A. Costacurta (30) 8. G. Neville (85) 9. D. Beckham (45) 10. S. Hyypia (50)
  8. Pat Mustard - 1. Romario (38) 2. L. Thuram (69) 3. A. Brehme (16) 4. R. Kopa (35) 5. A. Puc (192) 6. P. Vieira (61) 7. A. Shevchenko (31) 8. N. Vidic (22) 9. J. Veron (178) 10. S. Gerrard (37)
  9. Raees - 1. H. Stoichkov (120) 2. Z. Zidane (10) 3. M. Sammer (45) 4. J. Fontaine (139) 5. O. Nejedly (6) F. Cannavaro (190) 7. P. Cech (90) 8. R. Ferdinand (5) 9. A. Benarrivo (90) 10. J. Mascherano (100)
  10. Sjor/Indnyc - 1. M. Laudrup (120) 2. M. Desailly (156) 3. G. Bergomi (113) 4. R. Jonquet (16) 5. B. Klenovec (280) 6. P. Nedved (65) 7. S. Eto'o (75) 8. P. Scholes (555) 9. C. Taffarel (300) 10. E. Cambiasso (450)
  11. Moby - 1. M. Platini (183) 2. M. Amoros (47) 3. G. Scirea (16) 4. R. Marche (207) 5. R. Braine (66) 6. A. Del Piero (11) 7. C. Puyol (305) 8. P. Evra (240) 9. G. Popescu (12) 10. C. Vieri (23)
  12. green_smiley - 1. J. Rep (24) 2. G. Weah (300) 3. C. Gentile (75) 4. E. Happel (150) 5. B. Voorhoof (240) 6. J. Kohler (32) 7. E. Abidal (28) 8. R. Giggs (200) 9. P. Guardiola (45) 10. G. Gattuso (70)
  13. Tuppet - 1. J. Cruyff (55) 2. E. Davids (124) 3. Z. Boniek (18) 4. E. Ocwirk (92) 5. A. Baeten (56) 6. P. Littbarski (210) 7. G. Zambrotta (86) 8. R. van Nistelrooy (81) 9. L. Blanc (240) 10. T. Silva (145)
  14. Skizzo - 1. M. Basten (98) 2. J. Zanetti (110) 3. A. Cabrini (14) 4. G. Hanappi (62) 5. L. Hendrickx (60) 6. K-H. Forster (28) 7. G. Buffon (12) 8. A. Robben (266) 9. C. Makelele (94) 10. Neymar (100)
  15. P-nut - 1. F. Baresi (177) 2. R. Carlos (0) 3. D. Zoff (187) 4. R. Dienst (378) 5. F. Vermeyen (316) 6. B. Schuster (180) 7. A. Vidal (43) 8. B. Schweinsteiger (263) 9. R. Carvalho (14) 10. D. Alves (45)
  16. Oaencha - P. Maldini (30) 2. Rivaldo (391) 3. G. Facchetti (33) 4. K. Koller (58) 5. P. Dahl (225) 6. O. Ruggeri (100) 7. M. Neuer (337) 8. P. Lahm (0) 9. X. Alonso (180) 10. Z. Ibrahimović (32)
 
Andrea Pirlo

Andrea%20Pirlo.jpg

  1. 2mufc0/mazhar13 - 1. B. Robson (44) 2. R. Baggio (54) 3. F. Redondo (300) 4. A. Picchi (480) 5. W. Zeman (213) 6. R. Dierckx (519) 7. H. Sanchez (10) 8. J. Boateng (306) 9. P. Montero (75) 10. M. Camoranesi (375)
  2. Cal? - 1. E. Cantona (17) 2. A. Nesta (23) 3. Cafu (7) 4. S. Mazzola (27) 5. F. Binder (74) 6. J. Ceulemans (55) 7. F. Hierro (13) 8. V Kompany (30) 9. E. van der Sar (38) 10. G. Pessotto (375)
  3. Diarm - 1. D. Irwin (72) 2. Ronaldinho (453) 3. G. Batistuta (84) 4. L. Suarez Miramontes (111) 5. R. Schramseis (204) 6. M. Preud'Homme (78) 7. C. Seedorf (76) 8. S. Aguero (62) 9. D. Bergkamp (35) 10. D. Deschamps (24)
  4. Lord Slnister - 1. R. Keane (88) 2. L. Messi (19) 3. D. Maradona (29) 4. S. Kocsis (40) 5. J. Smistik (690) 6. E. Gerets (111) 7. J. Stam (133) 8. D. de Gea (18) 9. R. Pires (39), Tigana(67)
  5. EAP - 1. C. Ronaldo (24) 2. Xavi (257) 3. D. Passarella (46) 4. F. Puskas (158) 5. M. Sindelar (180) 6. R. Gullit (27) 7. D. Simeone (630) 8. C. Fabregas (60) 9. T. Adams (60) 10. B. Lizarazu (84)
  6. Enigma - 1. L. Figo (23) 2. A. Iniesta (1) 3. K.-H. Rummenigge (44) 4. Di Stefano (14) 5. J. Bican (17) 6. F. Rijkaard (14) 7. R. Ayala (48) 8. A. Cole (39) 9. S. Campbell (38) 10. M. Ballack
  7. idmanager - 1. L. Ronaldo (240) 2. T. Henry (40) 3. L. Matthäus (18) 4. F. Gento (30) 5. F. Plánička (24) 6. M. Overmars (330) 7. A. Costacurta (30) 8. G. Neville (85) 9. D. Beckham (45) 10. S. Hyypia (50)
  8. Pat Mustard - 1. Romario (38) 2. L. Thuram (69) 3. A. Brehme (16) 4. R. Kopa (35) 5. A. Puc (192) 6. P. Vieira (61) 7. A. Shevchenko (31) 8. N. Vidic (22) 9. J. Veron (178) 10. S. Gerrard (37)
  9. Raees - 1. H. Stoichkov (120) 2. Z. Zidane (10) 3. M. Sammer (45) 4. J. Fontaine (139) 5. O. Nejedly (6) F. Cannavaro (190) 7. P. Cech (90) 8. R. Ferdinand (5) 9. A. Benarrivo (90) 10. J. Mascherano (100)
  10. Sjor/Indnyc - 1. M. Laudrup (120) 2. M. Desailly (156) 3. G. Bergomi (113) 4. R. Jonquet (16) 5. B. Klenovec (280) 6. P. Nedved (65) 7. S. Eto'o (75) 8. P. Scholes (555) 9. C. Taffarel (300) 10. E. Cambiasso (450)
  11. Moby - 1. M. Platini (183) 2. M. Amoros (47) 3. G. Scirea (16) 4. R. Marche (207) 5. R. Braine (66) 6. A. Del Piero (11) 7. C. Puyol (305) 8. P. Evra (240) 9. G. Popescu (12) 10. C. Vieri (23)
  12. green_smiley - 1. J. Rep (24) 2. G. Weah (300) 3. C. Gentile (75) 4. E. Happel (150) 5. B. Voorhoof (240) 6. J. Kohler (32) 7. E. Abidal (28) 8. R. Giggs (200) 9. P. Guardiola (45) 10. G. Gattuso (70)
  13. Tuppet - 1. J. Cruyff (55) 2. E. Davids (124) 3. Z. Boniek (18) 4. E. Ocwirk (92) 5. A. Baeten (56) 6. P. Littbarski (210) 7. G. Zambrotta (86) 8. R. van Nistelrooy (81) 9. L. Blanc (240) 10. T. Silva (145)
  14. Skizzo - 1. M. Basten (98) 2. J. Zanetti (110) 3. A. Cabrini (14) 4. G. Hanappi (62) 5. L. Hendrickx (60) 6. K-H. Forster (28) 7. G. Buffon (12) 8. A. Robben (266) 9. C. Makelele (94) 10. Neymar (100)
  15. P-nut - 1. F. Baresi (177) 2. R. Carlos (0) 3. D. Zoff (187) 4. R. Dienst (378) 5. F. Vermeyen (316) 6. B. Schuster (180) 7. A. Vidal (43) 8. B. Schweinsteiger (263) 9. R. Carvalho (14) 10. D. Alves (45)
  16. Oaencha - P. Maldini (30) 2. Rivaldo (391) 3. G. Facchetti (33) 4. K. Koller (58) 5. P. Dahl (225) 6. O. Ruggeri (100) 7. M. Neuer (337) 8. P. Lahm (0) 9. X. Alonso (180) 10. Z. Ibrahimović (32) 11. A. Pirlo (65)
@P-Nut0712
 
Whilst I agree to certain extend, things really come way too easy for modern day footballers. They quickly become stars and get paid ridiculous amounts of money which takes away their focus and make them soft.

It's more of a individual drive to build their own legacy, rather than the will to win in the purest form
- the one Di Stefano, Cruyff, Maradona, Beckenbauer, Pele etc - had.

I mean, when you look at someone like Di Stefano and his mentality at 35-36 and then players like Dinho, Fenomeno pissing their talent at the age of 20 something is really, really sad.

What really sets apart players like Cruyff, Beckenbauer and Di Stefano is exactly that speed of thought, tactical discipline, reading of the game, coupled with great ambidexterity, stamina and of course natural ability that they possessed. They were not that outstanding as say Maradona, Pele, Fenomeno, who beat them when it comes to pure natural ability, but they could be the whole spine of a team on their own.

A league of their own and Großmeister on the pitch, I'm yet to see a modern player sharing the same traits, or having that mental edge over others. Nowadays players are drilled and trained for being a cog in the whole unit and whilst some have more important part, but they do need the stage to shine and depend more on their natural ability, boosted by fitness regimes and supplements rather than character and mentality.

The game lacks a bit those characters who would take it by the scruff of the neck and turn matches around when things aren't going their way with sheer determination and will to win. Leadership is something that is really underrated today and is what we've really been lacking post Fergie era, coupled of course with other factors.
You can also say that competition is much harder for players now and the kind of media / fan pressure they have to handle in order to become the very best shows character in its own. Also saying that only older players had will to win is insane. There are plenty of legends who pissed away their talent as well, Best for example did the same thing in 60s that Ronaldinho did in 2000s and I am sure there were more like Garrincha who were alcoholic and loved the parties. Plenty of players have shown character in crunch moments in modern era, players like Cristiano Roanldo, Messi, Keane, Xavi, Iniesta, Henry, Suarez have all had great drive and will to win. Iniesta / Robben are examples of player who cared more about winning then glorifying their individual contribution. On the other hand you hear the stories of Di Stefano's behavior to Didi and Puskas making him the highest goal scorer, how is that not about individual drive to build his own legacy. Cruyff's feud with Beveren might have cost Netherlands a world cup in 74. Going for personal glory and emotions is not new and not unique to older / newer players.

Also there is no way Di Stefano or Cruyff would have been playing today the way they played. It would be like saying that Da Guia would have been defending in 2 men backline had he played today. Tactics have moved on and the game has become too fast for any player to play every position and excel at them. Players are trained to be a cog in a machine because that's how football works now. Roy of rovers stuff is usually only needed when there is fault in either tactic or its execution. And individual brilliance would sometime win you games but on a longer interval it can not sustain against a well drilled team, last two world cup winner are perfect examples of this triumph of system.
 
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He didn't go downhill due to not looking after himself, it was the injuries and that WC Final incident that ravaged his body and mind. It was criminal.

Sure, he could have looked after himself better after, but it's not like it was entirely his own doing as with Goofy.

Not that I don't see your point. Actually, I always think of Ronaldo as a perfect mix of all the best attributes from Messi and Cristiano rolled in one except for that one thing: he lacked the mentality and inner drive that has made Cristiano push himself every day for over a decade.

He was decimated by injuries though, at times the whole thing was a pisstake ala Hargreaves/Phil Jones. He just couldn't catch a break and literally spent two seasons not playing with a comeback game and recurrence in between.

It would feck up most of us mentally. I had a chronic knee problem and know full well how it destroys your confidence and keeps you in a shell avoiding doing this and that.
Yeah, I've been probably too harsh on him. Probably the first player since Pele who took the world by storm at such a young age. The expectations were always huge on him and the combination of the lack of Cristiano's mentality and knowing that he can't push himself 100% and over the line without injuring himself would certainly have huge impact on his game.

He was great when he put 3 past us at OT and then again started the next season in similar fashion, but it was clear to see that he was out of shape even then. As you pointed out after the WC, he began to put more and more weight and in combination with chronic knee injuries it spelt the end of him. A leaner version could perhaps still be competitive for couple of years, but mentally he was spent.

I've seen him talk about pressure getting to him with Lineker and also on couple of other places:



Goofy as well after the 2006 WC when he had all the expectations on his shoulders wasn't the same and that put the end of really glorious peak.

I do think the modern day stars are a bit more fragile mentally compared to those half a century before - Di Stefano, Pele, Cruyff(although he nearly retired at 30), Beckenbauer, which leads to shorter peaks.

Ronaldo and Messi are a bit different which I always respect them for as they are still motivated being 10 years at the top. Perhaps them being at the opposite site of the two best clubs is one reason with each one of them pushing himself to the limit to still be at the top.

This has more to do with there is no scope to romanticize stuffs in today's era with access to match reports, replays, video clips and match analysis done at such vast and varied scale.
We have seen many matches where the likes of Cristiano, Messi, Suarez, DDG, Rues, Neymar and so on, have performed like Roy of Rovers but these performances don't have that feel because we get to know instantly that despite Messi scoring a brace or Ronaldo scores a 30yard screamer, they were lost balls in attacking third four times, and blah blah. That stories, is lost because of too much analysis of the game.
That's true to an extend, but it also has to do with the world's best talent summed up in two teams. Of course Messi/Ronaldo would be stars anywhere, but having Xavi, Iniesta, Suarez, Neymar and on the other hand Modric, Bale, Isco, Benzema(when he was actually good), Kroos, etc makes it a lot easier, considering the opportunities they have every game. Their team is almost always in control of the game.
 
To be fair to the modern softies, the pace of the game today and the defensive organisation of teams makes it impossible to play like these old bastards did. The notion that it's just because the modern players lack the mentality to do it is pretty silly.

There's a reason why it got more and more difficult for the elite players to influence games all over the pitch with every passing decade even though they are in much better physical shape. It's simply impossible to play in today's game like Di Stefano did in the 50's and it's not a question of talent or mentality.
That's all very true - what I said was massively tongue in cheek as well and there's no shortage of all rounders in our era either.

I would be interested in knowing when was man marking a common thing to stop superstars in the opposition. Most of the defenders pre Herrera look like a joke who just stand and tackle without any tracking of the opposition players which definitely let them have a lot more space to work with. A lot of Pele goals are a bunch of men stood in front of goal - sure he still has to dribble against them but you'd expect an explicit tactic to contain such a player. And that is quite visible in the Italian and German teams where you have incidents like Vogts going out there to nullify one man a nd that became a trend against the likes of Zico, Maradona and the likes.

I don't know how much of that the likes of Moreno, Di Stefano etc had to endure. Even our European Cup win in 1968 there was no defensive instruction against Best or Charlton and it was all zonal marking. Herrera brought in defensive coaching and strategies to defend apart from forming lines in front of goal and hoping for the best.
 
Yeah, I've been probably too harsh on him. Probably the first player since Pele who took the world by storm at such a young age. The expectations were always huge on him and the combination of the lack of Cristiano's mentality and knowing that he can't push himself 100% and over the line without injuring himself would certainly have huge impact on his game.

He was great when he put 3 past us at OT and then again started the next season in similar fashion, but it was clear to see that he was out of shape even then. As you pointed out after the WC, he began to put more and more weight and in combination with chronic knee injuries it spelt the end of him. A leaner version could perhaps still be competitive for couple of years, but mentally he was spent.

I've seen him talk about pressure getting to him with Lineker and also on couple of other places:



Goofy as well after the 2006 WC when he had all the expectations on his shoulders wasn't the same and that put the end of really glorious peak.

I do think the modern day stars are a bit more fragile mentally compared to those half a century before - Di Stefano, Pele, Cruyff(although he nearly retired at 30), Beckenbauer, which leads to shorter peaks.

Ronaldo and Messi are a bit different which I always respect them for as they are still motivated being 10 years at the top. Perhaps them being at the opposite site of the two best clubs is one reason with each one of them pushing himself to the limit to still be at the top.


That's true to an extend, but it also has to do with the world's best talent summed up in two teams. Of course Messi/Ronaldo would be stars anywhere, but having Xavi, Iniesta, Suarez, Neymar and on the other hand Modric, Bale, Isco, Benzema(when he was actually good), Kroos, etc makes it a lot easier, considering the opportunities they have every game. Their team is almost always in control of the game.




You are talking as if Pele, Beckenbauer, Cruyff or Di Stefano played with bunch of commoners.
All four were part of great teams, surround of by greatest players of their era in their positions. Some even all time greats
Maradona is an exception, although he also played with pretty solid cast.
 
You can also say that competition is much harder for players now and the kind of media / fan pressure they have to handle in order to become the very best shows character in its own. Also saying that only older players had will to win is insane. There are plenty of legends who pissed away their talent as well, Best for example did the same thing in 60s that Ronaldinho did in 2000s and I am sure there were more like Garrincha who were alcoholic and loved the parties. Plenty of players have shown character in crunch moments in modern era, players like Cristiano Roanldo, Messi, Keane, Xavi, Iniesta, Henry, Suarez have all had great drive and will to win. Iniesta / Robben are examples of player who cared more about winning then glorifying their individual contribution. On the other hand you hear the stories of Di Stefano's behavior to Didi and Puskas making him the highest goal scorer, how is that not about individual drive to build his own legacy. Cruyff's feud with Beveren might have cost Netherlands a world cup in 74. Going for personal glory and emotions is not new and not unique to older / newer players.

Also there is no way Di Stefano or Cruyff would have been playing today the way they played. It would be like saying that Da Guia would have been defending in 2 men backline had he played today. Tactics have moved on and the game has become too fast for any player to play every position and excel at them. Players are trained to be a cog in a machine because that's how football works now. Roy of rovers stuff is usually only needed when there is fault in either tactic or its execution. And individual brilliance would sometime win you games but on a longer interval it can not sustain against a well drilled team, last two world cup winner are perfect examples of this triumph of system.

Yeah of course mate, things aren't black and white. You still have players like CR, Iniesta, Xavi, Messi, etc who are model professionals and kept their will to win to be at the top for long time.

The mechanics are different, apart from tactics and exposure. I agree with you that if Cruyff and Di Stefano were playing today they won't be the same dominant figures to that extend for their teams, as both would've played for one of the super teams of today alongside the very best players as a supporting cast. But then again the likes of Xavi, Messi, Iniesta won't have developed the same without La Masia. They were pioneers in a different era, which made Barca and Real the clubs they are today. Without them there wouldn't be Galacticos and there wouldn't be that Barca golden generation.

They all had the prerequisites to succeed at the highest level and the supporting cast around them to lead by example. It depends how do you rate pioneers I guess and defeating all odds, because if you take Messi and Ronaldo outside their comfort zone and at the NT I don't see the same drive and will to win and the same leadership qualities like in their club teams.

I agree with your general notion of course - in terms of all time pool of course guys like Maradona, Cruyff, Di Stefano has to model their game and be part of the whole machine so of course the mechanics would be a bit different compared to the teams they starred in, let alone in modern game.

You are talking as if Pele, Beckenbauer, Cruyff or Di Stefano played with bunch of commoners.
All four were part of great teams, surround of by greatest players of their era in their positions. Some even all time greats
Maradona is an exception, although he also played with pretty solid cast.

With the exception of Pele, they kinda did when they started. Ajax were an amateurish side that went on to win 3 EC titles in a row. The Dutch league as well as the German league was in disarray by the time Beckenbauer and Cruyff were making their names. Beckenbauer was playing in the second level of German football in his debut. When Di Stefano signed for Real they didn't win a title for about 20 years, whilst the likes of Bilbao, Barca, Atletico, Valencia were the better sides and boasting with better players.

So yeah it's not exactly the same like breaking through a Barca team that just won the CL in a fashionable manner, or playing for Real that spends the foreign debt of a small country each year on players.
 
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I agree that the game lacks characters but is that really surprising and will we ever see them again in the game?
The only way you get characters today is if a player had a traumatic/bad childhood and even that route goes down the drain more often then not. Its just impossible this days to build characters and leaders within the game, players are treated like kids both on and off the pitch for pretty much their whole careers, so is it really surprising they stay as kids? Back then it was a mans game, now its a kids game.
Money "ruined" everything as always and somehow i doubt things will change any time soon or anytime tbh.....
 
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When Di Stefano signed for Real they didn't win a title for about 20 years........or playing for Real that spends the foreign debt of a small country each year on players.

Surely your must have felt your keyboard cringe when you typed that! :lol:

The Di Stefano transfer saga would put most current transfer drama's to shame. Worthy of a movie of its own. River and Millonarios disputing his ownership, Barca taking a lead, Real sneaking in, a 50/50 transfer mode contemplated (now why wouldn't that be practical? :rolleyes:) and then Barca taking themselves off the race (reputedly due to pressure from Gen Franco) leading to conspiracy theories that continue till date.

Add in Puskas, Kopa and Didi...Real of Di Stefano's time was no better current Real team in splashing money for players.
 
With the exception of Pele, they kinda did when they started. Ajax were an amateurish side that went on to win 3 EC titles in a row. The Dutch league as well as the German league was in disarray by the time Beckenbauer and Cruyff were making their names. Beckenbauer was playing in the second level of German football in his debut. When Di Stefano signed for Real they didn't win a title for about 20 years, whilst the likes of Bilbao, Barca, Atletico, Valencia were the better sides and boasting with better players.

So yeah it's not exactly the same like breaking through a Barca team that just won the CL in a fashionable manner, or playing for Real that spends the foreign debt of a small country each year on players.

Again you are not considering the situation of both CR and Messi. They while everything going on for them, also had to pressure of the highest level.
CR joined United when they had not won PL for nearly 3 seasons, it was only after team was molded around him United started winning and dominating again. After R10 faded, Barcelona lagged behind Real in the league, while not doing anything concrete in UCL. Messi was the only bright spot until Pep came, molded the team around him as false-9.
Real Madrid also when CR joined, needed much re-enforcement because they had not done bleach in Europe for long.

Starting from the starch is always praised, but people don't understand much that as tough is building the foundation, same is carry-on the success.

Di Stefano did not played with bunch of commoners neither in his first season nor in any of his season in Real or River Plate or Millonarios, Cruyff-Ajax took gradual progression just like Beckenbauer in Bayern. Both the team were stacked.
See obviously these players were the key components the ones around whom the team was built(although many argue Muller are more or as important as Becks in Bayern).

My point is simple, this character talk and leadership thing is very vague, people always talk about old times as more glorious while current time is always considered less glamorous.
If you read some of the books of 60s, you will read writers writing about how money ruined the game, and players were less technical and so on, and how the game was better in 40s.
Most of the oldies who was there who witnessed Pele's debut will tell you, Zizinho was better, or his grand-dad will tell you that Arthur Friedenreich was better.
There are many Hungarians football experts who will laugh at your face if you call Puskas the greatest Hungarian, because they consider György Sárosi better.
The game has always been the same, the cycle of physical football winning to defensive football winning to beautiful football winning back to physical football and so on, has always been the core of the game. People talk about Barcelona of Pep but the core game(passing and movement) was not much different Queens Park FC in late 1860s.
 
Surely your must have felt your keyboard cringe when you typed that! :lol:

The Di Stefano transfer saga would put most current transfer drama's to shame. Worthy of a movie of its own. River and Millonarios disputing his ownership, Barca taking a lead, Real sneaking in, a 50/50 transfer mode contemplated (now why wouldn't that be practical? :rolleyes:) and then Barca taking themselves off the race (reputedly due to pressure from Gen Franco) leading to conspiracy theories that continue till date.

Add in Puskas, Kopa and Didi...Real of Di Stefano's time was no better current Real team in splashing money for players.
Santiago Bernabeu madness.
 
Surely your must have felt your keyboard cringe when you typed that! :lol:

The Di Stefano transfer saga would put most current transfer drama's to shame. Worthy of a movie of its own. River and Millonarios disputing his ownership, Barca taking a lead, Real sneaking in, a 50/50 transfer mode contemplated (now why wouldn't that be practical? :rolleyes:) and then Barca taking themselves off the race (reputedly due to pressure from Gen Franco) leading to conspiracy theories that continue till date.

Add in Puskas, Kopa and Didi...Real of Di Stefano's time was no better current Real team in splashing money for players.

It's a broad topic that's for sure, but we've seen many money projects fail if they didn't get the right men. There was the Gen Franco effect and we've heard stories on the pressure on Barca and Kubala so indeed it's much more in that just to put it in few words, but individually you can argue that Di Stefano was always the driving force. Puskas came in 1958, Kopa in 1956. Real won 2 titles and an EC until anyone of those you mentioned got into the team. Yes they did have the finances, but the power was more balanced and was spread more equally compared to the two horse race it is today.

Again you are not considering the situation of both CR and Messi. They while everything going on for them, also had to pressure of the highest level.
CR joined United when they had not won PL for nearly 3 seasons, it was only after team was molded around him United started winning and dominating again. After R10 faded, Barcelona lagged behind Real in the league, while not doing anything concrete in UCL. Messi was the only bright spot until Pep came, molded the team around him as false-9.
Real Madrid also when CR joined, needed much re-enforcement because they had not done bleach in Europe for long.

Starting from the starch is always praised, but people don't understand much that as tough is building the foundation, same is carry-on the success.

Di Stefano did not played with bunch of commoners neither in his first season nor in any of his season in Real or River Plate or Millonarios, Cruyff-Ajax took gradual progression just like Beckenbauer in Bayern. Both the team were stacked.
See obviously these players were the key components the ones around whom the team was built(although many argue Muller are more or as important as Becks in Bayern).

My point is simple, this character talk and leadership thing is very vague, people always talk about old times as more glorious while current time is always considered less glamorous.
If you read some of the books of 60s, you will read writers writing about how money ruined the game, and players were less technical and so on, and how the game was better in 40s.
Most of the oldies who was there who witnessed Pele's debut will tell you, Zizinho was better, or his grand-dad will tell you that Arthur Friedenreich was better.
There are many Hungarians football experts who will laugh at your face if you call Puskas the greatest Hungarian, because they consider György Sárosi better.
The game has always been the same, the cycle of physical football winning to defensive football winning to beautiful football winning back to physical football and so on, has always been the core of the game. People talk about Barcelona of Pep but the core game(passing and movement) was not much different Queens Park FC in late 1860s.

The difference is that all I've already mentioned not only build the foundations but they also carried on the success and remained on the top.

You can't be serious with Messi being the only bright spot when Pep came along considering they had a spine of three EURO champions with Xavi lighting up the tournament and producing some awesome performances complimented by Iniesta and Puyol at the back.

Messi had a great stage considering the star of the team - Ronaldinho was on the wane and going to be sold, whilst coinciding with one of the best generations Barcelona ever produced, along with senior players like Puyol to lead from the back.

Anyhow it's a long topic and perhaps we can discuss it separately in appropriate thread.

I'll put a great piece on Di Stefano (would use parts in the match treads probably as well) describing the situation when he came at Real for anyone interested in reading about it.

In the post-war era, Real Madrid were about as far from the affluent Galacticos of the modern day as you could get. As Spain emerged desperately poor from the wreckage of its Civil War, it was Barcelona who found themselves at the centre of the country's growing industrial revolution.

With Barcelona's population swelled by the arrival of thousands of migrants from the poverty-stricken south, the city's football team was also finding itself in a position of power. The side dominated La Liga and won four titles, while also picking up three Copas del Generalismo and two Copas Latinas between 1948 and 1953.

As historian David Goldblatt asserts: ''Real Madrid were not a team of affluence but in the final moment in a long cycle of professionalism and modernisation in Spanish football that had begun in the late 1920s, was interrupted and set back by the Civil War and post-war isolation, and only began to recover in the 1950s.''

At that time, the man spearheading Real's return to the top of the Spanish (and ultimately European) game was Santiago Bernabeu. A Civil War veteran, he had been a club member since the age of 15 and was a player, team captain, board director and even coach before running for president. Bernabeu actually had a match against Barcelona to thank for his election, after a clash in 1943 that was marred by fan violence, the presidents of both clubs were forced to resign and Bernabeu was brought in. Over the next decade, Goldblatt notes, he ''laid the architectural, economic and political foundations of Real's success."

First up was the building of a new 75,000-capacity stadium (extended to 125,000 in 1954) called the Nuevo Estadio Chamartin, which was opened in 1947; among other potential money spinners, Real's finances began to grow. Tight accounting and the arrival of a large group of middle-class socios, in conjunction with the increased numbers that could now flock to see the side play, made them wealthy by the standards of the day. But Real's most lucrative business move did not involve anything more than the signing of a single player: Alfredo Di Stefano.

Although he was little known in Europe, the Argentine, nicknamed La Saeta Rubia (The Blond Arrow), had won six league titles in Argentina and Colombia and also played internationally for both countries. He would become ''the brains, the lungs, the inspiration and often the sword of Real Madrid over the next decade," but his transfer to Spain was about as controversial as they come and involved a bitter tug-of-war with rivals Barcelona. The exact course of events has been debated over the years and conspiracy theories have emerged since, but a balanced account can be found in Phil Ball's book on Spanish football history, "Morbo."

Di Stefano had left River Plate to join Colombian side Club Deportivo Los Millonarios in Bogota in 1949 after a players' strike in Argentina. Despite an incredibly tense political situation that descended into Civil War in Colombia (over a quarter of a million people died over the following three years) the Ballet Azul (Ballet in Blue) provided relief for the population and the club's style of football played was mesmeric, with Di Stefano at its heart.

Because of the fighting, FIFA had placed a ban on the Colombian professional league which allowed it to break the rules over signing foreign players and smoothed Di Stefano's arrival. But in 1951, an agreement was reached in Lima that would allow Colombia back into FIFA -- and to play friendlies against foreign teams -- on the proviso that the league would get rid of all its foreign stars.

The agreement allowed Millonarios to take their players on a lucrative global tour in 1952 that took in Uruguay, Peru, Argentina and Bolivia, before ending up in Spain. Winning in Valencia, Seville and then Madrid, it was in the capital that Di Stefano attracted the most attention. The evening before a game against Real, Bernabeu emerged from a radio broadcast with the words: "Este tio huele a buen futbol" ("This kid smells of good football"). But Real were not the only club to take note, as Barca chief Pepe Samitier was also in attendance.

The Catalans, in fact, looked most likely to seal Di Stefano's signature in the early stages, although they faced problems over who to deal with. The confusion over his exit from Argentina saw both Millonarios and River Plate claim to own his registration and Barcelona negotiator Ramon Trias Fargas was able to strike a deal with River, but not with Millonarios, who were upset by the bullying tactics of the club and an unpaid debt of $5,000 owed to them by the player himself.

After a tour to Venezuela, Di Stefano refused to return to Colombia and, instead, travelled to Barcelona with his family. A giddy Catalan press proclaimed a deal had been done, but that was far from the truth. Author Jimmy Burns, in his book "Barca: A People's Passion," maintains that Trias Fargas almost had a deal in the bag after Millonarios backed down from their demands for a $40,000 fee, accepting a $10,000 transfer that also included paying off Di Stefano's debt and a friendly match in which the Colombians would receive all the proceeds.

Barca president Marti Carreto, however, would not back down: He wanted the deal to be worth $10,000 alone, with no concessions. Carreto's motives have become the subject of much debate, with some claiming that he was put under intense pressure by the government, while he always maintained that he had the club's best ''sporting and financial'' interests in mind. Whatever the reasons, Barca's hold on the Argentine slipped and Madrid quickly pounced.

As Madrid entered the negotiations, the Spanish Football Federation passed a law banning the acquisition of foreign players -- ''giving the government a role as broker," according to Burns. Di Stefano would be excluded from this ban if Barca dropped their attempts to sign him and, ultimately, the two clubs agreed to share him on a yearly basis with Madrid for a period of four seasons. The deal was signed on Sept. 15, 1953, but the Catalan press did not react well and Carreto was forced to resign.

Nine months of negotiating came to a head as the interim board who replaced him agreed to let Di Stefano join Real for a compensation payment of 5.5 million pesetas. As with Carret, the reasons for the decision are still disputed to this day: Barca say that they were put under pressure by General Franco's regime, while Real maintain that the decision was voluntary. However, the result was that the Blond Arrow was registered as a Real player and the rest is history.

With his future secure, a few weeks into his Real Madrid career Di Stefano would come face-to-face with the club he almost joined and, in his first ever El Clasico game, he scored his first two official goals for his new side. It took all of 10 minutes for the Argentine to stab home from close range after Barca goalkeeper Juan Zambudio Velasco just failed to reach a squared cross and before halftime Real were rampant.

i

A poster advertising Di Stefano's appearance in the film "Saeta Rubia" in 1956.
Two goals in two minutes from Roque Olsen settled the tie, but Di Stefano's clever run into the box resulted in a fourth as Luis Molowny smashed home to make it 4-0 before the break. The second half saw just a single goal, but it was Di Stefano again as he ran through on goal to put Velasco off balance and slide the ball into the net. With a cool flick of his boot, Di Stefano made the final score 5-0 and gave Real the momentum in the title race. It was a personal performance that was described as ''brilliantly versatile'' by the press and summed up the player perfectly.

With Barcelona defeated, Eduardo Galeano later wrote in his profile of the man: "The entire playing field fitted inside his shoes. From his feet the pitch sprouted and grew ... he ran and reran the field from net to net. He would change flanks and change rhythm with the ball from a lazy trot to an unstoppable cyclone; without the ball he would evade his marker to gain open space, seeking air whenever a play got choked off. ... He never stood still. Holding his head high, he could see the entire pitch and cross it at a gallop to prise open the defence and launch the attack. He was there at the beginning, during, and at the end of every scoring play, and he scored goals of all colours.''

Based around Di Stefano, Bernabeu continued to build the club behind the scenes ''one stone at a time,'' as he had promised. His cornerstone was, of course, the Argentine, whose form and public image helped lift Real Madrid to unprecedented heights and Barca fans were left with only their dreams about what he could have achieved at Les Corts and the Camp Nou.

What happened next? Despite losing the return Clasico 5-1 in February 1954, Di Stefano's 27 goals that season helped Real to their first title in 21 years and he received worldwide praise for his performance in his debut campaign in Spain. It would be the first of 12 titles in 16 years and, the following season, Real notched up another 3-0 home win against Barcelona to push them toward another La Liga crown and gain entry into the inaugural European Cup in 1955. It would be their European exploits -- including five consecutive trophies between 1956 and 1960 -- that would secure their place in football history and Di Stefano, with 49 goals in 58 appearances in Europe, would play a major role in their rise to become one of the biggest clubs in the world before he left in 1964.
 
Yes they did have the finances, but the power was more balanced and was spread more equally compared to the two horse race it is today.

Barca won the Liga 4 of 6 year preceding Di Stefano's coming to Real. And then for the 12 of the next 15 years it was Real and Barca again. You have Atletico popping up here and there with even Bilbao winning it once, but nothing to say it's spread even. Real have won it more times than all the rest (minus Barca) combined! It's always been a two horse race even then.
 
Barca won the Liga 4 of 6 year preceding Di Stefano's coming to Real. And then for the 12 of the next 15 years it was Real and Barca again. You have Atletico popping up here and there with even Bilbao winning it once, but nothing to say it's spread even. Real have won it more times than all the rest (minus Barca) combined! It's always been a two horse race even then.

After the civil war (1939) till Di Stefano arrived, Real came 2nd only twice in 14 years and top three 5 times. Hardly a two horse race mate.

Afterwards with their rise and also Barca catching up indeed it became a two horse race comparable to today.
 
The difference is that all I've already mentioned not only build the foundations but they also carried on the success and remained on the top.

You can't be serious with Messi being the only bright spot when Pep came along considering they had a spine of three EURO champions with Xavi lighting up the tournament and producing some awesome performances complimented by Iniesta and Puyol at the back.

Messi had a great stage considering the star of the team - Ronaldinho was on the wane and going to be sold, whilst coinciding with one of the best generations Barcelona ever produced, along with senior players like Puyol to lead from the back.

Anyhow it's a long topic and perhaps we can discuss it separately in appropriate thread.

I'll put a great piece on Di Stefano (would use parts in the match treads probably as well) describing the situation when he came at Real for anyone interested in reading about it.

obviously I termed it badly, but what I meant was Messi was the player who was looked upon as the player of the team post 2006 UCL era.
Ronaldinho while scoring loads from pks and fks was waning drastically in 2006/07, although the team did chipped in(just like Real Madrid's team in 1953-54, with Henry and Eto scoring goals, Deco also playing a role despite obvious decline in performance while Iniesta also starting to get prominence) but the major player since 2007/08(year before Pep) was Messi. He was the one who was looked upon as the best player in the world already by many, apart from EPL folks who were still allured by Cristiano, rightfully given CR's performances. Ofcourse Real in early 1950s did not had much prominence as Barca in 2000s, but the pressure being the man of the team was similar to Messi as was with Di Stefano.
It is not right to suggest that Xavi-Iniesta were performing in Barcelona during those two seasons(Xavi after 2006 injury was a lost soul while Inesta was just like Messi getting on his foot).
I have read about Di Stefano bro, know what kind of player he was, and what level of influence he had on Real Madrid and on European football in general. But to say Messi or Cristiano have any less influence in their respective teams or the game in general is just underrating the current giants.
Anyways lets agree to disagree.
 
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obviously I termed it badly, but what I meant was Messi was the player who was looked upon as the player of the team post 2006 UCL era.
Ronaldinho while scoring loads from pks and fks was waning drastically in 2006/07, although the team did chipped in(just like Real Madrid's team in 1953-54, with Henry and Eto scoring goals, Deco also playing a role despite obvious decline in performance while Iniesta also starting to get prominence) but the major player since 2007/08(year before Pep) was Messi. He was the one who was looked upon as the best player in the world already by many, apart from EPL folks who were still allured by Cristiano, rightfully given CR's performances. Ofcourse Real in early 1950s did not had much prominence as Barca in 2000s, but the pressure being the man of the team was similar to Messi as was with Di Stefano.
It is not right to suggest that Xavi-Iniesta were performing in Barcelona during those two seasons(Xavi after 2006 injury was a lost soul while Inesta was just like Messi getting on his foot).
I have read about Di Stefano bro, know what kind of player he was, and what level of influence he had on Real Madrid and on European football in general. But to say Messi or Cristiano have any less influence in their respective teams or the game in general is just underrating the current giants.
Anyways lets agree to disagree.
Nah don't get me wrong mate. Both are hugely influential figures and perhaps one of the biggest in modern football. By having it easier by no means is "easy" as obviously they have a lot of pressure themselves and as someone else mentioned all eyes are on them - highlights, analysis, how many km's they've ran and so forth. Every miss and every loss is pinned on them as leaders and kudos for turning up again and again.

Anyhow it's how things go I guess. In 15 years time well be blabbering about the next best kid on the block and how easy is for him to score 2 in 1, whilst not being a patch on Messi.:wenger:
 
David Villa please if someone could update the list.
 
  1. 2mufc0/mazhar13 - 1. B. Robson (44) 2. R. Baggio (54) 3. F. Redondo (300) 4. A. Picchi (480) 5. W. Zeman (213) 6. R. Dierckx (519) 7. H. Sanchez (10) 8. J. Boateng (306) 9. P. Montero (75) 10. M. Camoranesi (375)
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  3. Diarm - 1. D. Irwin (72) 2. Ronaldinho (453) 3. G. Batistuta (84) 4. L. Suarez Miramontes (111) 5. R. Schramseis (204) 6. M. Preud'Homme (78) 7. C. Seedorf (76) 8. S. Aguero (62) 9. D. Bergkamp (35) 10. D. Deschamps (24)
  4. Lord Slnister - 1. R. Keane (88) 2. L. Messi (19) 3. D. Maradona (29) 4. S. Kocsis (40) 5. J. Smistik (690) 6. E. Gerets (111) 7. J. Stam (133) 8. D. de Gea (18) 9. R. Pires (39), Tigana(67)
  5. EAP - 1. C. Ronaldo (24) 2. Xavi (257) 3. D. Passarella (46) 4. F. Puskas (158) 5. M. Sindelar (180) 6. R. Gullit (27) 7. D. Simeone (630) 8. C. Fabregas (60) 9. T. Adams (60) 10. B. Lizarazu (84)
  6. Enigma - 1. L. Figo (23) 2. A. Iniesta (1) 3. K.-H. Rummenigge (44) 4. Di Stefano (14) 5. J. Bican (17) 6. F. Rijkaard (14) 7. R. Ayala (48) 8. A. Cole (39) 9. S. Campbell (38) 10. M. Ballack
  7. idmanager - 1. L. Ronaldo (240) 2. T. Henry (40) 3. L. Matthäus (18) 4. F. Gento (30) 5. F. Plánička (24) 6. M. Overmars (330) 7. A. Costacurta (30) 8. G. Neville (85) 9. D. Beckham (45) 10. S. Hyypia (50)
  8. Pat Mustard - 1. Romario (38) 2. L. Thuram (69) 3. A. Brehme (16) 4. R. Kopa (35) 5. A. Puc (192) 6. P. Vieira (61) 7. A. Shevchenko (31) 8. N. Vidic (22) 9. J. Veron (178) 10. S. Gerrard (37)
  9. Raees - 1. H. Stoichkov (120) 2. Z. Zidane (10) 3. M. Sammer (45) 4. J. Fontaine (139) 5. O. Nejedly (6) F. Cannavaro (190) 7. P. Cech (90) 8. R. Ferdinand (5) 9. A. Benarrivo (90) 10. J. Mascherano (100)
  10. Sjor/Indnyc - 1. M. Laudrup (120) 2. M. Desailly (156) 3. G. Bergomi (113) 4. R. Jonquet (16) 5. B. Klenovec (280) 6. P. Nedved (65) 7. S. Eto'o (75) 8. P. Scholes (555) 9. C. Taffarel (300) 10. E. Cambiasso (450)
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  12. green_smiley - 1. J. Rep (24) 2. G. Weah (300) 3. C. Gentile (75) 4. E. Happel (150) 5. B. Voorhoof (240) 6. J. Kohler (32) 7. E. Abidal (28) 8. R. Giggs (200) 9. P. Guardiola (45) 10. G. Gattuso (70)
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@Skizzo
 
Yeah, I've been probably too harsh on him. Probably the first player since Pele who took the world by storm at such a young age. The expectations were always huge on him and the combination of the lack of Cristiano's mentality and knowing that he can't push himself 100% and over the line without injuring himself would certainly have huge impact on his game.

We lost this:
mFv915.gif


When the exact day he was returning from 6 months out this happened (cue another 18 months out):
cOu7hh.gif


That's two years out after he had only turned 23. Yes, we seem to forget how he had been tearing up three different leagues and a World Cup before turning TWENTY-THREE.

I can't hold it against him, all I can do is thank my lucky stars for seeing the five years before that and the glimpses after. fecking tragedy.
 
We lost this:

When the exact day he was returning from 6 months out this happened (cue another 18 months out):


That's two years out after he had only turned 23. Yes, we seem to forget how he had been tearing up three different leagues and a World Cup before turning TWENTY-THREE.

I can't hold it against him, all I can do is thank my lucky stars for seeing the five years before that and the glimpses after. fecking tragedy.

I've always thought Luigi Simoni over-exploited him in 97/98. Never rested and subbed. He had to play 100% of the time because there wasn't a collective play and Ronaldo was the only one threat. Djorkaeff was the only other player capable to score some goals sometimes.

When you see his performances following these severe injuries, it really shows he was really a ultimate GOAT.
 
atletico-madrid-sevilla.jpg

  1. 2mufc0/mazhar13 - 1. B. Robson (44) 2. R. Baggio (54) 3. F. Redondo (300) 4. A. Picchi (480) 5. W. Zeman (213) 6. R. Dierckx (519) 7. H. Sanchez (10) 8. J. Boateng (306) 9. P. Montero (75) 10. M. Camoranesi (375)
  2. Cal? - 1. E. Cantona (17) 2. A. Nesta (23) 3. Cafu (7) 4. S. Mazzola (27) 5. F. Binder (74) 6. J. Ceulemans (55) 7. F. Hierro (13) 8. V Kompany (30) 9. E. van der Sar (38) 10. G. Pessotto (375)
  3. Diarm - 1. D. Irwin (72) 2. Ronaldinho (453) 3. G. Batistuta (84) 4. L. Suarez Miramontes (111) 5. R. Schramseis (204) 6. M. Preud'Homme (78) 7. C. Seedorf (76) 8. S. Aguero (62) 9. D. Bergkamp (35) 10. D. Deschamps (24)
  4. Lord Slnister - 1. R. Keane (88) 2. L. Messi (19) 3. D. Maradona (29) 4. S. Kocsis (40) 5. J. Smistik (690) 6. E. Gerets (111) 7. J. Stam (133) 8. D. de Gea (18) 9. R. Pires (39), Tigana(67)
  5. EAP - 1. C. Ronaldo (24) 2. Xavi (257) 3. D. Passarella (46) 4. F. Puskas (158) 5. M. Sindelar (180) 6. R. Gullit (27) 7. D. Simeone (630) 8. C. Fabregas (60) 9. T. Adams (60) 10. B. Lizarazu (84)
  6. Enigma - 1. L. Figo (23) 2. A. Iniesta (1) 3. K.-H. Rummenigge (44) 4. Di Stefano (14) 5. J. Bican (17) 6. F. Rijkaard (14) 7. R. Ayala (48) 8. A. Cole (39) 9. S. Campbell (38) 10. M. Ballack
  7. idmanager - 1. L. Ronaldo (240) 2. T. Henry (40) 3. L. Matthäus (18) 4. F. Gento (30) 5. F. Plánička (24) 6. M. Overmars (330) 7. A. Costacurta (30) 8. G. Neville (85) 9. D. Beckham (45) 10. S. Hyypia (50)
  8. Pat Mustard - 1. Romario (38) 2. L. Thuram (69) 3. A. Brehme (16) 4. R. Kopa (35) 5. A. Puc (192) 6. P. Vieira (61) 7. A. Shevchenko (31) 8. N. Vidic (22) 9. J. Veron (178) 10. S. Gerrard (37)
  9. Raees - 1. H. Stoichkov (120) 2. Z. Zidane (10) 3. M. Sammer (45) 4. J. Fontaine (139) 5. O. Nejedly (6) F. Cannavaro (190) 7. P. Cech (90) 8. R. Ferdinand (5) 9. A. Benarrivo (90) 10. J. Mascherano (100)
  10. Sjor/Indnyc - 1. M. Laudrup (120) 2. M. Desailly (156) 3. G. Bergomi (113) 4. R. Jonquet (16) 5. B. Klenovec (280) 6. P. Nedved (65) 7. S. Eto'o (75) 8. P. Scholes (555) 9. C. Taffarel (300) 10. E. Cambiasso (450)
  11. Moby - 1. M. Platini (183) 2. M. Amoros (47) 3. G. Scirea (16) 4. R. Marche (207) 5. R. Braine (66) 6. A. Del Piero (11) 7. C. Puyol (305) 8. P. Evra (240) 9. G. Popescu (12) 10. C. Vieri (23)
  12. green_smiley - 1. J. Rep (24) 2. G. Weah (300) 3. C. Gentile (75) 4. E. Happel (150) 5. B. Voorhoof (240) 6. J. Kohler (32) 7. E. Abidal (28) 8. R. Giggs (200) 9. P. Guardiola (45) 10. G. Gattuso (70)
  13. Tuppet - 1. J. Cruyff (55) 2. E. Davids (124) 3. Z. Boniek (18) 4. E. Ocwirk (92) 5. A. Baeten (56) 6. P. Littbarski (210) 7. G. Zambrotta (86) 8. R. van Nistelrooy (81) 9. L. Blanc (240) 10. T. Silva (145)
  14. Skizzo - 1. M. Basten (98) 2. J. Zanetti (110) 3. A. Cabrini (14) 4. G. Hanappi (62) 5. L. Hendrickx (60) 6. K-H. Forster (28) 7. G. Buffon (12) 8. A. Robben (266) 9. C. Makelele (94) 10. Neymar (100) 11. D. Godin (22)
  15. P-nut - 1. F. Baresi (177) 2. R. Carlos (0) 3. D. Zoff (187) 4. R. Dienst (378) 5. F. Vermeyen (316) 6. B. Schuster (180) 7. A. Vidal (43) 8. B. Schweinsteiger (263) 9. R. Carvalho (14) 10. D. Alves (45) 11. D. Villa (374)
  16. Oaencha - P. Maldini (30) 2. Rivaldo (391) 3. G. Facchetti (33) 4. K. Koller (58) 5. P. Dahl (225) 6. O. Ruggeri (100) 7. M. Neuer (337) 8. P. Lahm (0) 9. X. Alonso (180) 10. Z. Ibrahimović (32) 11. A. Pirlo (65)
@Tuppet
 
I've always thought Luigi Simoni over-exploited him in 97/98. Never rested and subbed. He had to play 100% of the time because there wasn't a collective play and Ronaldo was the only one threat. Djorkaeff was the only other player capable to score some goals sometimes.

When you see his performances following these severe injuries, it really shows he was really a ultimate GOAT.

That's one of my key GOAT tests seeing as I'm a counter-attacking junkie.

If you had a choice of giving the ball to someone bursting from midfield and facing 2-3 defenders plus a couple of desperately backtracking midfielders... who do you go for? Nobody else in the GOAT striker department. Pelé? Not solo, if it's solo probably Eusebio over him really. Messi? Maradona edges him there IMO (while Messi would edge Maradona at taking advantage of defences thrown into disarray by others). He was stockier and better able to ride a tackle / challenge. Being a physical freak of nature certainly helps, so Cristiano is in with a shout... but Ronaldo was a better dribbler and clinical finisher.

It's Ronaldo, hands down.
 
400px-Courtois_aug_2014.jpg


http://www.worldfootball.net/report/champions-league-2013-2014-finale-real-madrid-atletico-madrid/
  1. 2mufc0/mazhar13 - 1. B. Robson (44) 2. R. Baggio (54) 3. F. Redondo (300) 4. A. Picchi (480) 5. W. Zeman (213) 6. R. Dierckx (519) 7. H. Sanchez (10) 8. J. Boateng (306) 9. P. Montero (75) 10. M. Camoranesi (375)

  2. Cal? - 1. E. Cantona (17) 2. A. Nesta (23) 3. Cafu (7) 4. S. Mazzola (27) 5. F. Binder (74) 6. J. Ceulemans (55) 7. F. Hierro (13) 8. V Kompany (30) 9. E. van der Sar (38) 10. G. Pessotto (375)

  3. Diarm - 1. D. Irwin (72) 2. Ronaldinho (453) 3. G. Batistuta (84) 4. L. Suarez Miramontes (111) 5. R. Schramseis (204) 6. M. Preud'Homme (78) 7. C. Seedorf (76) 8. S. Aguero (62) 9. D. Bergkamp (35) 10. D. Deschamps (24)

  4. Lord Slnister - 1. R. Keane (88) 2. L. Messi (19) 3. D. Maradona (29) 4. S. Kocsis (40) 5. J. Smistik (690) 6. E. Gerets (111) 7. J. Stam (133) 8. D. de Gea (18) 9. R. Pires (39), Tigana(67)

  5. EAP - 1. C. Ronaldo (24) 2. Xavi (257) 3. D. Passarella (46) 4. F. Puskas (158) 5. M. Sindelar (180) 6. R. Gullit (27) 7. D. Simeone (630) 8. C. Fabregas (60) 9. T. Adams (60) 10. B. Lizarazu (84)

  6. Enigma - 1. L. Figo (23) 2. A. Iniesta (1) 3. K.-H. Rummenigge (44) 4. Di Stefano (14) 5. J. Bican (17) 6. F. Rijkaard (14) 7. R. Ayala (48) 8. A. Cole (39) 9. S. Campbell (38) 10. M. Ballack

  7. idmanager - 1. L. Ronaldo (240) 2. T. Henry (40) 3. L. Matthäus (18) 4. F. Gento (30) 5. F. Plánička (24) 6. M. Overmars (330) 7. A. Costacurta (30) 8. G. Neville (85) 9. D. Beckham (45) 10. S. Hyypia (50)

  8. Pat Mustard - 1. Romario (38) 2. L. Thuram (69) 3. A. Brehme (16) 4. R. Kopa (35) 5. A. Puc (192) 6. P. Vieira (61) 7. A. Shevchenko (31) 8. N. Vidic (22) 9. J. Veron (178) 10. S. Gerrard (37)

  9. Raees - 1. H. Stoichkov (120) 2. Z. Zidane (10) 3. M. Sammer (45) 4. J. Fontaine (139) 5. O. Nejedly (6) F. Cannavaro (190) 7. P. Cech (90) 8. R. Ferdinand (5) 9. A. Benarrivo (90) 10. J. Mascherano (100)

  10. Sjor/Indnyc - 1. M. Laudrup (120) 2. M. Desailly (156) 3. G. Bergomi (113) 4. R. Jonquet (16) 5. B. Klenovec (280) 6. P. Nedved (65) 7. S. Eto'o (75) 8. P. Scholes (555) 9. C. Taffarel (300) 10. E. Cambiasso (450)

  11. Moby - 1. M. Platini (183) 2. M. Amoros (47) 3. G. Scirea (16) 4. R. Marche (207) 5. R. Braine (66) 6. A. Del Piero (11) 7. C. Puyol (305) 8. P. Evra (240) 9. G. Popescu (12) 10. C. Vieri (23)

  12. green_smiley - 1. J. Rep (24) 2. G. Weah (300) 3. C. Gentile (75) 4. E. Happel (150) 5. B. Voorhoof (240) 6. J. Kohler (32) 7. E. Abidal (28) 8. R. Giggs (200) 9. P. Guardiola (45) 10. G. Gattuso (70)

  13. Tuppet - 1. J. Cruyff (55) 2. E. Davids (124) 3. Z. Boniek (18) 4. E. Ocwirk (92) 5. A. Baeten (56) 6. P. Littbarski (210) 7. G. Zambrotta (86) 8. R. van Nistelrooy (81) 9. L. Blanc (240) 10. T. Silva (145) 11. T. Courtois (45)

  14. Skizzo - 1. M. Basten (98) 2. J. Zanetti (110) 3. A. Cabrini (14) 4. G. Hanappi (62) 5. L. Hendrickx (60) 6. K-H. Forster (28) 7. G. Buffon (12) 8. A. Robben (266) 9. C. Makelele (94) 10. Neymar (100) 11. D. Godin (22)

  15. P-nut - 1. F. Baresi (177) 2. R. Carlos (0) 3. D. Zoff (187) 4. R. Dienst (378) 5. F. Vermeyen (316) 6. B. Schuster (180) 7. A. Vidal (43) 8. B. Schweinsteiger (263) 9. R. Carvalho (14) 10. D. Alves (45) 11. D. Villa (374)

  16. Oaencha - P. Maldini (30) 2. Rivaldo (391) 3. G. Facchetti (33) 4. K. Koller (58) 5. P. Dahl (225) 6. O. Ruggeri (100) 7. M. Neuer (337) 8. P. Lahm (0) 9. X. Alonso (180) 10. Z. Ibrahimović (32) 11. A. Pirlo (65)
@green_smiley