Yeah I understand that, just saying a midfield two of Rijkaard and Di Stefano would be some sight to behold.
Dominoes draft
- Thread starter Tuppet
- Start date
I actually thought about that and is still an option if I get near one or two GOAT's that are left in the pool.
I still need a RB
Lolzy
I know what you mean. Ditto. @idmanager
AdS peak is up on top dropping back to overload gaps. I doubt his best use is a CM driving forward.
I was going more by skillset. His Madrid time was up top a lot but he was often as deep as a CM. He has a quote that says every player should know how to play every position so he wouldn't really be a weakness anywhere.
Di Stefano is the most complete player ever. Could really play at any position, like Cruyff, and much like him he was literally all over the pitch in his games to pin him to a specific role/position.
Add to that his style which meant non stop on the move - he possessed stamina levels of Cafu, Nedved and Davids.
He usually is presented as a square peg in a round hole when it comes to fitting him in a team full of GOAT's, but he always talked about him being a team player and putting the team before him. It's his incredible will to win and personality which often get cited and being depicted as a 'troublemaker'.
If he has to play as a CM, I have no doubt he'll give his best there, but he'll be less influential compared to a more advanced role.
Anyhow will leave it to the games. Happy to open up the pool a bit as well as the modern one was beginning to get thin.
To be fair, I trust Puskas more then Di Stefano himself on this account. Puskas said that he had to limit his game and to basically admit Di Stefano's superiority to maintain good relationships. Something that Didi hasn't done from the start, which pretty much instantly decided his fate.
He was unselfish as a player, but not as a person, I'd put it this way.
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This. He'd do a decent job and will by no means be considered "out of position weakness", he still will not be at his peak.
Imo AdS in the hole of a 4-4-2 will be perfect for him. Just not sure on Ballack/Rijkaard combo. I don't really rate his Chelsea stint where he played deeper and more central, esp with Rijkaard there. And the more exciting Leverkusen version may overlap with Di Stefano. I think maybe you could do with a passer type CM there, Kroos/Modric etc better.
Most of the footage ive seen is him driving forward from midfield with the ball. Think there's plenty of footage where he took the ball deep and drove forward or dictated the build up.
He grew up learning from the likes of Moreno who were similarly mental in terms of what they demanded from themselves. Once Di Stefano asked Moreno while he was bleeding from his head about whether he wants to get subbed and the nutter replied that he's not dead yet.
It's hardly a stretch to call him the most complete footballer ever and it isn't just based on his mates saying a couple of nice things about him. Sounds like a silly conspiracy theory.
But based on what. He was an elite midfield general.
I never doubted his completeness. Just the fact that you shoehorn him in midfield instead of admitting his superiority over everyone else that goes against his personality. Of course he can play in midfield if he wishes and chances are he'll still be the best player on the pitch; but playing in midfield two, even with the likes of Rijkaard, limits him too much for my liking — you want him to roam around causing chaos
The requirements of the position differs. His involvement in attacking would be more limited compared to being in the hole. His influence on the game plus his goal scoring abilities will be limited too. I doubt it'll suit him.
Indeed, but great players always have a bit of arrogance around them(bar maybe Pele, Messi). Cruyff also was a bit of trouble maker especially if things didn't go his way, like Di Stefano he always wanted the ball and players like van Hanegem, Neeskens had to limit their game as well in order for it to work alongside him.
Didi however is another thing. He was hugely influential figure wherever he played and players like Garrincha and Pele were looking up to him. It's probably fair to say that he was the top dog and the driving force in 2 back to back WC wins for Brazil, with of course Pele and Garrincha being the cherry on the top and making the difference in front of the goal.
When you put him alongside Di Stefano tho there were definitely going to be sparkles, as both of them control the tempo, both of them are the orchestrators of their teams and there has to be only one.
I don't think Di Stefano for example will work well Xavi as well or guys like Cruyff, Maradona, Platini and the likes, but the same goes for them as well. You need to set the stage for him and you can't have another dominant playmaker in the middle of the pitch.
Would Di Stefano work with Pele, Messi, Ronaldinho, etc? I think it definitely would.
Why. He could have a Bryan Robson esque display of proper box to box football. For me that's a great way to utilise his unique combination of on and off the ball ability.
No doubt he's great up front or in the hole but when you already have the likes of Kalle and Bican I'd personally have him at the heart of the game where his complete nature of the game and vertical coverage would be of full use.
Especially with wide players giving him more options it would hardly be different from the formations he played in where he had two outsides and two insides to combine with.
Shouldn't most of this be in game discussion. I understand little bits about fit but we'll be taking away from what we should be discussing in game if we carry on much more.
Ballack at around his peak was pretty much B2B mate. He was both attacking and defending and had Ramelow sitting in front of the defence and Basturk - a #10 in front of him. That was the technical, dynamic and exciting Ballack, not the version at Chelsea which was on the wane and couldn't really play 4-4-2, hence they needed another DM in order to fit both him and Lampard in the same team.
The Leverkusen version won't overlap with Di Stefano as again, he played in a much similar role. His goals came after a shot outside the box or running from deep in the box. He had a SS/#10 in front of him, a striker and a DM/anchor like Rijkaard(Ramelow) next to him.
The Chelsea version is far from his peak, think at the time he raised his level significantly when playing for the NT and when he was at Chelsea it was the more cnutish version that picked the paycheck at the end of the week and didn't really put a shift in.
With Di Stefano is always tricky, I need midfielders who can pass the ball and move it on speed, but also be very direct in the center. That's why I'm putting Iniesta wide and also have another playmaking option out wide in Figo. A designated playmaker next to Di Stefano in the middle could IMO create the same issue as he had with Didi.
Di Stefano would always drop back to touch the ball in midfield and move it forward, that's what I've always seen from him - much like Cruyff. A Kroos/Modric type would be IMO a bit of a misfit.
But then where will people post their gifs
Had a chat with Enigma about this earlier and all I can say is it's great that he has both options going forward.
Rijkaard is by all means one of the few who could provide him the platform in a 4-4-2 ala how Matic has unleashed Pogba (different order of magnitude of course, in line with this being All Time).
Having Ballack he doesn't need to worry about any monster midfield encounter, but if a cracking forward or left winger materialises he can easily accommodate him too.
Smashing squad he is assembling.
Another finished article for you. I'd make that 8 of your XI so far fit for a final.
Watched every game there is from Di Stefano and from i saw he was both dominant and very selfless on the ball. The whole game went around him but in the same time he also left fair share of freedom to not only star players but also the likes of Del Sol, Zarraga etc.
Id have him in the same tier as Messi and Pele in terms of sharing duties with other GOATs.
I can see him and Xavi together, other guys from the first group no, on that we agree.
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- 2mufc0/mazhar13 - 1. B. Robson (44) 2. R. Baggio (54) 3. F. Redondo (300) 4. A. Picchi (480) 5. W. Zeman (213) 6. R. Dierckx (519) 7. H. Sanchez (10) 8. J. Boateng (306) 9. P. Montero (75)
- Cal? - 1. E. Cantona (17) 2. A. Nesta (23) 3. Cafu (7) 4. S. Mazzola (27) 5. F. Binder (74) 6. J. Ceulemans (55) 7. F. Hierro (13) 8. V Kompany (30) 9. E. van der Sar (38)
- Diarm - 1. D. Irwin (72) 2. Ronaldinho (453) 3. G. Batistuta (84) 4. L. Suarez Miramontes (111) 5. R. Schramseis (204) 6. M. Preud'Homme (78) 7. C. Seedorf (76) 8. S. Aguero (62) 9. D. Bergkamp (35) 10. D. Deschamps (24)
- Lord Slnister - 1. R. Keane (88) 2. L. Messi (19) 3. D. Maradona (29) 4. S. Kocsis (40) 5. J. Smistik (690) 6. E. Gerets (111) 7. J. Stam (133) 8. D. de Gea (18) 9. R. Pires (39) 10. J. Tigana (67)
- EAP - 1. C. Ronaldo (24) 2. Xavi (257) 3. D. Passarella (46) 4. F. Puskas (158) 5. M. Sindelar (180) 6. R. Gullit (27) 7. D. Simeone (630) 8. C. Fabregas (60) 9. T. Adams (60) 10. B. Lizarazu (84)
- Enigma - 1. L. Figo (23) 2. A. Iniesta (1) 3. K.-H. Rummenigge (44) 4. Di Stefano (14) 5. J. Bican (17) 6. F. Rijkaard (14) 7. R. Ayala (48) 8. A. Cole (39) 9. S. Campbell (38) 10. M. Ballack (40)
- idmanager - 1. L. Ronaldo (240) 2. T. Henry (40) 3. L. Matthäus (18) 4. F. Gento (30) 5. F. Plánička (24) 6. M. Overmars (330) 7. A. Costacurta (30) 8. G. Neville (85) 9. D. Beckham (45) 10. S. Hyypia (50)
- Pat Mustard - 1. Romario (38) 2. L. Thuram (69) 3. A. Brehme (16) 4. R. Kopa (35) 5. A. Puc (192) 6. P. Vieira (61) 7. A. Shevchenko (31) 8. N. Vidic (22) 9. J. Veron (178) 10. S. Gerrard (37)
- Raees - 1. H. Stoichkov (120) 2. Z. Zidane (10) 3. M. Sammer (45) 4. J. Fontaine (139) 5. O. Nejedly (6) F. Cannavaro (190) 7. P. Cech (90) 8. R. Ferdinand (5) 9. A. Benarrivo (90) 10. J. Mascherano (100)
- Sjor/Indnyc - 1. M. Laudrup (120) 2. M. Desailly (156) 3. G. Bergomi (113) 4. R. Jonquet (16) 5. B. Klenovec (280) 6. P. Nedved (65) 7. S. Eto'o (75) 8. P. Scholes (555) 9. C. Taffarel (300) 10. E. Cambiasso (450)
- Moby - 1. M. Platini (183) 2. M. Amoros (47) 3. G. Scirea (16) 4. R. Marche (207) 5. R. Braine (66) 6. A. Del Piero (11) 7. C. Puyol (305) 8. P. Evra (240) 9. G. Popescu (12) 10. C. Vieri (23)
- green_smiley - 1. J. Rep (24) 2. G. Weah (300) 3. C. Gentile (75) 4. E. Happel (150) 5. B. Voorhoof (240) 6. J. Kohler (32) 7. E. Abidal (28) 8. R. Giggs (200) 9. P. Guardiola (45) 10. G. Gattuso (70)
- Tuppet - 1. J. Cruyff (55) 2. E. Davids (124) 3. Z. Boniek (18) 4. E. Ocwirk (92) 5. A. Baeten (56) 6. P. Littbarski (210) 7. G. Zambrotta (86) 8. R. van Nistelrooy (81) 9. L. Blanc (240) 10. T. Silva (145)
- Skizzo - 1. M. Basten (98) 2. J. Zanetti (110) 3. A. Cabrini (14) 4. G. Hanappi (62) 5. L. Hendrickx (60) 6. K-H. Forster (28) 7. G. Buffon (12) 8. A. Robben (266) 9. C. Makelele (94) 10. Neymar (100)
- P-nut - 1. F. Baresi (177) 2. R. Carlos (0) 3. D. Zoff (187) 4. R. Dienst (378) 5. F. Vermeyen (316) 6. B. Schuster (180) 7. A. Vidal (43) 8. B. Schweinsteiger (263) 9. R. Carvalho (14) 10. D. Alves (45)
- Oaencha - P. Maldini (30) 2. Rivaldo (391) 3. G. Facchetti (33) 4. K. Koller (58) 5. P. Dahl (225) 6. O. Ruggeri (100) 7. M. Neuer (337) 8. P. Lahm (0) 9. X. Alonso (180) 10. Z. Ibrahimović (32)
Not really. The big part of AdS game is his free role. There are ample instances of him roaming about influencing the game all over the pitch. I even recall a story where in a match he just ran aimlessly in the least influential areas of the pitch with just the intent to tire out defenders
A CM in a 4-4-2 is as far as you can possibly get in a free role. It's a highly disciplined role where being caught out of position will usually result in a goal against. Can AdS play that role? Yes. Will we be getting the best of all AdS has to offer? No.
That is a very narrow minded view of the most complete player the game has seen ignoring both his skillset and evidence - he was called that for a reason and had a tremendous skill set. Saying he cannot be disciplined in a role that requires that and play as per the instructions is blasphemy.Not really. The big part of AdS game is his free role. There are ample instances of him roaming about influencing the game all over the pitch. I even recall a story where in a match he just ran aimlessly in the least influential areas of the pitch with just the intent to tire out defenders
A CM in a 4-4-2 is as far as you can possibly get in a free role. It's a highly disciplined role where being caught out of position will usually result in a goal against. Can AdS play that role? Yes. Will we be getting the best of all AdS has to offer? No.
He was a forward but also a very unique one at that who could be world class as a defender or a midfielder. It's how he expected himself to be.
I don't see the point of being positionally rigid in the first place given we are talking about him being a box to box midfielder and not a holding midfielder. Next to a DM like Rijkaard as well as hard working wide players he will have full freedom to be present where it was required and both defend and attack. That setup has been applied in the 90s by Alex Ferguson where Scholes was pretty much an attacking midfielder who played as a CM because he had Keane minding the defense and both Giggs and Beckham being there to support the midfield. Imagine Di Stefano in a similar role who was times better defensively and had more stamina to perform that role where he could dictate play or drive forward as per the situation.
Let's not compare these old bastards with the modern softies who need 5 midfielders around them to function. The formation they played in were highly demanding in terms of players having to both defend and attack and perform several roles. Given Di Stefano's uniqueness (let's say he was the Ruud Gullit of the 50s) he can contribute in multiple ways depending on what they team is. If there is a shortage of forward and you need someone to dominate the penalty box then he can play as a forward but if you already have class goalscorers you can just as easily give him a more central role in which he will absolutely thrive as he loved to be in the thick of the action. A proper box to box player.
Literally no one here questions his skillset or ability to play in a disciplined role.
Evening everyone. I’m going to bed shortly and can’t exactly leave a pick with anyone. I will be able to post 08:30 London time tomorrow morning if it comes back to me again by then.
Wut? When did I say that?
It quite tempting to get a versatile player and shoehorn him in random formations just saying "Oh, he's versatile... he'll manage."
Team should be built around AdS....and a CM in a 442 is nowhere close to the best build was my point. On the other hand, a SS in the hole fits him to a T.
To be fair to the modern softies, the pace of the game today and the defensive organisation of teams makes it impossible to play like these old bastards did. The notion that it's just because the modern players lack the mentality to do it is pretty silly.
There's a reason why it got more and more difficult for the elite players to influence games all over the pitch with every passing decade even though they are in much better physical shape. It's simply impossible to play in today's game like Di Stefano did in the 50's and it's not a question of talent or mentality.
Whilst I agree to certain extend, things really come way too easy for modern day footballers. They quickly become stars and get paid ridiculous amounts of money which takes away their focus and make them soft.
It's more of a individual drive to build their own legacy, rather than the will to win in the purest form - the one Di Stefano, Cruyff, Maradona, Beckenbauer, Pele etc - had.
I mean, when you look at someone like Di Stefano and his mentality at 35-36 and then players like Dinho, Fenomeno pissing their talent at the age of 20 something is really, really sad.
What really sets apart players like Cruyff, Beckenbauer and Di Stefano is exactly that speed of thought, tactical discipline, reading of the game, coupled with great ambidexterity, stamina and of course natural ability that they possessed. They were not that outstanding as say Maradona, Pele, Fenomeno, who beat them when it comes to pure natural ability, but they could be the whole spine of a team on their own.
A league of their own and Großmeister on the pitch, I'm yet to see a modern player sharing the same traits, or having that mental edge over others. Nowadays players are drilled and trained for being a cog in the whole unit and whilst some have more important part, but they do need the stage to shine and depend more on their natural ability, boosted by fitness regimes and supplements rather than character and mentality.
The game lacks a bit those characters who would take it by the scruff of the neck and turn matches around when things aren't going their way with sheer determination and will to win. Leadership is something that is really underrated today and is what we've really been lacking post Fergie era, coupled of course with other factors.
How has this not moved at all
Our match up is really bad cause I'll be going sleep not long before that so this will drag a bit.
Shame because it worked quite well going the other way
and I'll probably still in bed when you pickShame because it worked quite well going the other way
I’ll be going bed about 6 and wake about 2 uk time so if Oeancha picks about 8 it’s going to be one long wait. If we get to him before I go to bed I’ll leave a few guess picks to try and not slow it down.
I managed to guess your Zanetti pick going the opposite way.
- 2mufc0/mazhar13 - 1. B. Robson (44) 2. R. Baggio (54) 3. F. Redondo (300) 4. A. Picchi (480) 5. W. Zeman (213) 6. R. Dierckx (519) 7. H. Sanchez (10) 8. J. Boateng (306) 9. P. Montero (75)
- Cal? - 1. E. Cantona (17) 2. A. Nesta (23) 3. Cafu (7) 4. S. Mazzola (27) 5. F. Binder (74) 6. J. Ceulemans (55) 7. F. Hierro (13) 8. V Kompany (30) 9. E. van der Sar (38) 10. G Pessotto (375)
- Diarm - 1. D. Irwin (72) 2. Ronaldinho (453) 3. G. Batistuta (84) 4. L. Suarez Miramontes (111) 5. R. Schramseis (204) 6. M. Preud'Homme (78) 7. C. Seedorf (76) 8. S. Aguero (62) 9. D. Bergkamp (35) 10. D. Deschamps (24)
- Lord Slnister - 1. R. Keane (88) 2. L. Messi (19) 3. D. Maradona (29) 4. S. Kocsis (40) 5. J. Smistik (690) 6. E. Gerets (111) 7. J. Stam (133) 8. D. de Gea (18) 9. R. Pires (39), Tigana(67)
- EAP - 1. C. Ronaldo (24) 2. Xavi (257) 3. D. Passarella (46) 4. F. Puskas (158) 5. M. Sindelar (180) 6. R. Gullit (27) 7. D. Simeone (630) 8. C. Fabregas (60) 9. T. Adams (60) 10. B. Lizarazu (84)
- Enigma - 1. L. Figo (23) 2. A. Iniesta (1) 3. K.-H. Rummenigge (44) 4. Di Stefano (14) 5. J. Bican (17) 6. F. Rijkaard (14) 7. R. Ayala (48) 8. A. Cole (39) 9. S. Campbell (38) 10. M. Ballack
- idmanager - 1. L. Ronaldo (240) 2. T. Henry (40) 3. L. Matthäus (18) 4. F. Gento (30) 5. F. Plánička (24) 6. M. Overmars (330) 7. A. Costacurta (30) 8. G. Neville (85) 9. D. Beckham (45) 10. S. Hyypia (50)
- Pat Mustard - 1. Romario (38) 2. L. Thuram (69) 3. A. Brehme (16) 4. R. Kopa (35) 5. A. Puc (192) 6. P. Vieira (61) 7. A. Shevchenko (31) 8. N. Vidic (22) 9. J. Veron (178) 10. S. Gerrard (37)
- Raees - 1. H. Stoichkov (120) 2. Z. Zidane (10) 3. M. Sammer (45) 4. J. Fontaine (139) 5. O. Nejedly (6) F. Cannavaro (190) 7. P. Cech (90) 8. R. Ferdinand (5) 9. A. Benarrivo (90) 10. J. Mascherano (100)
- Sjor/Indnyc - 1. M. Laudrup (120) 2. M. Desailly (156) 3. G. Bergomi (113) 4. R. Jonquet (16) 5. B. Klenovec (280) 6. P. Nedved (65) 7. S. Eto'o (75) 8. P. Scholes (555) 9. C. Taffarel (300) 10. E. Cambiasso (450)
- Moby - 1. M. Platini (183) 2. M. Amoros (47) 3. G. Scirea (16) 4. R. Marche (207) 5. R. Braine (66) 6. A. Del Piero (11) 7. C. Puyol (305) 8. P. Evra (240) 9. G. Popescu (12) 10. C. Vieri (23)
- green_smiley - 1. J. Rep (24) 2. G. Weah (300) 3. C. Gentile (75) 4. E. Happel (150) 5. B. Voorhoof (240) 6. J. Kohler (32) 7. E. Abidal (28) 8. R. Giggs (200) 9. P. Guardiola (45) 10. G. Gattuso (70)
- Tuppet - 1. J. Cruyff (55) 2. E. Davids (124) 3. Z. Boniek (18) 4. E. Ocwirk (92) 5. A. Baeten (56) 6. P. Littbarski (210) 7. G. Zambrotta (86) 8. R. van Nistelrooy (81) 9. L. Blanc (240) 10. T. Silva (145)
- Skizzo - 1. M. Basten (98) 2. J. Zanetti (110) 3. A. Cabrini (14) 4. G. Hanappi (62) 5. L. Hendrickx (60) 6. K-H. Forster (28) 7. G. Buffon (12) 8. A. Robben (266) 9. C. Makelele (94) 10. Neymar (100)
- P-nut - 1. F. Baresi (177) 2. R. Carlos (0) 3. D. Zoff (187) 4. R. Dienst (378) 5. F. Vermeyen (316) 6. B. Schuster (180) 7. A. Vidal (43) 8. B. Schweinsteiger (263) 9. R. Carvalho (14) 10. D. Alves (45)
- Oaencha - P. Maldini (30) 2. Rivaldo (391) 3. G. Facchetti (33) 4. K. Koller (58) 5. P. Dahl (225) 6. O. Ruggeri (100) 7. M. Neuer (337) 8. P. Lahm (0) 9. X. Alonso (180) 10. Z. Ibrahimović (32)
Sorry guys, having been living in the European time zone for a while before, I actually have a morning meeting in Hong Kong so went to bed early last night.
Good post bar that. Adriano sure, but not Ronaldo. fecking tragedy for all of us that.
Thought his weight issues really ruined the rest of his career. If he could stay in shape maybe he wouldn't get so many injuries later on and would perhaps finished his career in a flashier manner.
Even overweight he has shown what he's capable in the early 00's but then got even more bloated putting even more weight on knees, ankles and so forth.
Sure due to the injuries in his younger days he wasn't as explosive, but he was a complete forward who can find the net in his late 20's. Much like Dinho he lost his focus and other factors led to those career ending injuries.
I guess he could've tried a bit harder and work harder so we can enjoy him close to his top a little more.
He didn't go downhill due to not looking after himself, it was the injuries and that WC Final incident that ravaged his body and mind. It was criminal.
Sure, he could have looked after himself better after, but it's not like it was entirely his own doing as with Goofy.
Not that I don't see your point. Actually, I always think of Ronaldo as a perfect mix of all the best attributes from Messi and Cristiano rolled in one except for that one thing: he lacked the mentality and inner drive that has made Cristiano push himself every day for over a decade.
He was decimated by injuries though, at times the whole thing was a pisstake ala Hargreaves/Phil Jones. He just couldn't catch a break and literally spent two seasons not playing with a comeback game and recurrence in between.
It would feck up most of us mentally. I had a chronic knee problem and know full well how it destroys your confidence and keeps you in a shell avoiding doing this and that.
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Doesn't look like I'm gunna be able to have a guess at Oaencha pick so we're stuck for a few hours. Sorry guys.
This has more to do with there is no scope to romanticize stuffs in today's era with access to match reports, replays, video clips and match analysis done at such vast and varied scale.
We have seen many matches where the likes of Cristiano, Messi, Suarez, DDG, Rues, Neymar and so on, have performed like Roy of Rovers but these performances don't have that feel because we get to know instantly that despite Messi scoring a brace or Ronaldo scores a 30yard screamer, they were lost balls in attacking third four times, and blah blah. That stories, is lost because of too much analysis of the game.