Dominoes draft: R1 - idmanager vs Lord Sinister

[idmanager]

You're taking intimidated too literally as in he would shit himself. He'd still be great but he'd be inhibited just a touch just like he was for France in comparison to his full flowering at Arsenal.

I don't see any sense in this.
The invincible team was filled with top lads and while not all were strikers, were quite harmonious. You don't get to be invincibles without an attitude like that.
Henry always came out to me as a team player and so did R9 despite all his talent.
In fact, he did not have a bloated ego compared to few other strikers of his era and definitely lots of strikers of the current era.

The number of goals they have created and assisted as compared to your average striker, is a testament to them working with other players, big and small.
Beckham playing from deep only adds to the place available to roam and express themselves.
Something that is not available in Sinister's team.

 

[idmanager]

This is pretty much how my stem would work and destroy the opposition defense which is not tight and will has gaps all over.
The below video is Ronaldo single handedly murdering Frank de boer and Jaap Stam on the counter.
And he didn't have Henry to support him in the move

To say Stam could handle it on the counters when the defense is out of position is very naive no matter how good he was. Its Gento+Henry+Ronaldo's sheer pace we are talking about.

 

[idmanager]

I could actually see it going the other way and possibly raising each other to UberGOAT-like heights - instead of thinking 'who would make that pass?'/'would they get in each other's way?', I'd be thinking 'there's two great options', 'two individual geniuses to mark', 'two greats who can score individually', 'two people to feed Kocsis'. Maybe I'm just too glass-half full but I don't see a downside in a Maradona/Messi linkup

The problem is it looks good in theory definitely.
There is not a single GOAT, who didn't struggle when he was not allowed to express himself.

Messi in Argentina setup for example with all the striking talent around him never worked in 4-2-3-1 with Di Maria/Aguero/Higuain/Lavezzi/whoever.
Imagine Beckenbauer being told to stay back and take care of the defensive line and be ultra-disciplined, back in the day.
Or Roy Keane being told to sit between the centre backs or slot in for the Kaiser when he goes forward. It wasn't their game.

Sure, they are shiny names and its hard to argue when the assumption is they will be GOAT's no matter what setup you play them in.
But expecting a Kaiser to work like Kohler, or Messi like Robben or Keane like Makelele is what a good drafted team should not do.

That team desperately needed a Makelele esque figure. Keana and Tigana are quite redundant in an already attack minded setup allover the pitch from defense to attack.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

You're taking intimidated too literally as in he would shit himself. He'd still be great but he'd be inhibited just a touch just like he was for France in comparison to his full flowering at Arsenal.

He was compatible with all the other guys but they're not Zidane level and by time we get to Etoo - he was older and wiser.. more secure and playing as a LW but peak Henry I always had slight doubts about him when he was playing for the NT .. never quite saw him at 100%.

As for Ro and Ro. Romario has insane confidence and it was a little and large combo but both guys fed of each other's brilliance with both having superstar uber confident personalities in any given situation whereas I would argue Henry at France v Arsenal persona was touch different. He was the man at Arsenal, unrivalled in the EPL and that made a difference.

All I'm saying is we might see 80-90% of Henry vs 100% in this pairing (assuming we're using a 2001-2004) but obviously you being a gooner I can see why you'd think I'm talking out my arse.

Ronaldo's peak was when he was younger than Thierry Henry's peak so in this match Henry is the elder statesmen which invalidates your theory

Also Henry himself would agree with you that he was a different player at Arsenal but in his own words, something just happened when he put on the Arsenal shirt. He loved Arsenal and it inspired him. If there was even an ounce of being intimidated he never would have succeeded the way he did at Arsenal. Remember when he came in Bergkamp was already considered World Class and he was replacing the far more hyped up Anelka at the time.

 

[idmanager]

To add a few points to the midfield battle, Effenberg is probably better than having Paul Scholes in a 4-4-2.
His passing range is amazing and he can tear open the defense with a single pass. While also adding much needed defensive solidarity and energy to the midfield.
Scholes was lucky in having Giggs and Beckham along him over the years, for him to be less disciplined.
With Effenberg, you can afford that extra genius on the wing, like Gento in a 4-4-2.

Below is a video which shows his passing range and his effectiveness on counter attacks.

 

[idmanager]

Also, I think Matthaus' contribution to the defense has been completely ignored in the argument.
We can all agree that he is going to reduce Maradona's effectiveness the most in this draft in his disciplined no non-sense role.

And with Messi already not being the playmaker and in the formation that has never suited him, against a player with the right traits to stop him (right footed left back capable of playing centre half at the biggest stage), while being supported by a energetic Effenberg, one can argue if its attack even is going to be that devastating or effective?

As I said earlier, he would need 7-8 moves to create a chance, my team would do that in just 1 or 2 and they would be more clear cut considering his open defense.

 

[idmanager]

Despite lack of quality, I think idmamanger's defence is better suited to task at hand. No frills, just sit back and defend and they have a excellent duo shielding them. Dietz playing tucked in will help against Messi and Neville vs Ribery is quite even too. Gento vs Gerets would need Beckenbauer to provide support and that may hamper his attacking contribution a little imo. You had Schwarzenback and Vogts to balance out Breitner and Beckenbauer, which is not the case here.

Not to forget Breitner was not a nut defensively. You cannot say that for Ziege by any stretch of imagination. Probably the nicest most non-offending way I could put that for Ziege whose defensive credentials don't need to be analyzed by an expert.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

The problem is it looks good in theory definitely.
There is not a single GOAT, who didn't struggle when he was not allowed to express himself.

Messi in Argentina setup for example with all the striking talent around him never worked in 4-2-3-1 with Di Maria/Aguero/Higuain/Lavezzi/whoever.
Imagine Beckenbauer being told to stay back and take care of the defensive line and be ultra-disciplined, back in the day.
Or Roy Keane being told to sit between the centre backs or slot in for the Kaiser when he goes forward. It wasn't their game.

Sure, they are shiny names and its hard to argue when the assumption is they will be GOAT's no matter what setup you play them in.
But expecting a Kaiser to work like Kohler, or Messi like Robben or Keane like Makelele is what a good drafted team should not do.

That team desperately needed a Makelele esque figure. Keana and Tigana are quite redundant in an already attack minded setup allover the pitch from defense to attack.

"In theory"? .... as opposed to all the REAL all-time Draft games that we play?

Nah, I don't see it.

Don't see Beckenbauer being an issue having to "stay back" either - it's not like Lord has said he's going to be some wandering minstrel leaving Stam (an excellent defender himself) alone but you're suggesting he couldn't be implying to stay back and help.

With Keane, maybe there's a case to say that part of his game may not be used to its fullest but again the implication is Keane and Tigana CAN'T sit a little (they won't need to sit between the CHs though). Same as M/M, sure two excellent MFers could manage one dropping and/or holding (or both if required) - I've seen both do that when needed.

I know what you mean - you can't just lump GOATs on a picture and say "tar dar!!!" but I honestly don't see that they can't perform in the positions they're being asked to.... but I get why you do.

Football? Bloody hell.

 

[idmanager]

Don't see Beckenbauer being an issue having to "stay back" either - it's not like Lord has said he's going to be some wandering minstrel leaving Stam

Beckenbauer doesn't have to be a wandering minstrel for the defense to be punished here. Him leaving the defense even for slight amounts of time is likely to be a recipe for disaster if I manage to win the ball and start an effective counter.
With the pace and finishers I have ahead, you would want a no non-sense stay at the ball always defender.

Its doesn't even have to be the Kaiser's mistake in losing the ball is something that gets forgotten in draft games. A briliant tackle on someone else to win the ball, a lucky break or even someone like Ziege making a mistake can screw with the Kaiser's positioning without a mistake of his own. That is how counter attacking system's work with such attack minded systems.

Thin margins, but with the quality ahead, that is all that is required.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Beckenbauer doesn't have to be a wandering minstrel for the defense to be punished here. Him leaving the defense even for slight amounts of time is likely to be a recipe for disaster if I manage to win the ball and start an effective counter.
With the pace and finishers I have ahead, you would want a no non-sense stay at the ball always defender.

Its doesn't even have to be the Kaiser's mistake in losing the ball is something that gets forgotten in draft games. A briliant tackle on someone else to win the ball, a lucky break or even someone like Ziege making a mistake can screw with the Kaiser's positioning without a mistake of his own. That is how counter attacking system's work with such attack minded systems.

Thin margins, but with the quality ahead, that is all that is required.

... looking at Lord's graphic, no arrow saying he's looking for Beckenbauer to push up/leave the defence? Looking at his description, nothing either? Not looked back through all comments, maybe I've missed the bit that says he will.

 

[Lord SInister]

... looking at Lord's graphic, no arrow saying he's looking for Beckenbauer to push up/leave the defence? Looking at his description, nothing either? Not looked back through all comments, maybe I've missed the bit that says he will.

Beckenbauer will basically be playing like how Rio played, playing like a modern-day sweeper-centerback, rather than playing as an attacking sweeper, who will link-up with strikers and attacking midfielders.
Another thing that is being ignored is that, whenever fullbacks push it will be a one of the midfielder will cover his space, and never I said both the fullbacks will have a go at once.
Here is the defensive plays descriptions:

The Back-four and Goalie:
DDG will play the ball out from the back. and the four defender will position themselves to provide him with passing and throwing options.

Beckenbauer and Japp Stam, play a traditional sweeper-stopper central defense partnership.
With Beckenbauer at times(mostly during counters) playing his accurate long balls down the wings for Messi and Ribery to make their devastating runs behind the defends to either go at goal, or make plays for Kocsis to finish.

Eric and Christian have enough space to help the attacks on the flanks by overlapping the Messi and Ribery at times. This does create situations where we will double up the wings and will be used to get behind the idmanger's defence. They will safely run high on the pitch they will be protected by Tigana and Keane.

Pressing game/Central Game:


We will try to force the id's team towards the flanks and Kocsis will have an important role, as he will hassle ID's defenders to play the ball to the full backs and when the ball is given to his full backs, my team will suffocate the space around him. with us and cut every single possibilities for him, so he would rather play the ball or loose it.
And if the ball is played through the middle, Maradona and co will harass the midfield, as he is quite known in his playing time of doing it.
also at times when opposition might play the ball down the middle, we will drop back and organize the field. Since we are blessed to have 2 defensively adequate midfielders Tigana and Keane will be given different roles in defense according to the ball's actual position and id's team movement and possession status.
Both will have their zones to press and shutout the opposition from getting one-v-one or two-v-two against our defenders.
Kocsis will also in this scenarios should drop back behind the ball's line when Messi/Ribery will put pressure on their man with the ball. Our team's optimal length will always be between 20-30 meters.
But we will always be ready if id manager's team is trying to play a long ball in behind our defense, and since both Beckenbauer and Stam have adequate speed, there will be no trouble for that.

Counters:

When we will win the ball in the break, one of either Keane or Tigana(both have good long passing skills) and if Becks(he also had excellent long passing skills) wins it, will try to attack empty spaces created on the flanks. And I am blessed with two very fast/tricky flankers in Messi and Ribery. who can take the ball fast either go at the goal, play the ball quickly to Kocsis or Maradona.
Kocsis will play an important role here,he has to drag and occupy the id's CBs to open up space on the flanks. And he has the speed and tactical guile to play the role effectively

 

[Gio]

I don't see any real issues with that front four to be honest. Kocsis is as pure a goalscorer as you could want to get on the end of their service. Ribery may cut inside, which isn't really helpful, but he would be happy to defer to Maradona and Messi inside him. After all he was a consummate team player at Bayern and would become a productive part of the whole here. Assuming Sinister is dominating affairs, Ziege will be able to overlap, which was his strength, and provide more natural width as well. That's how width works in the modern game. Obviously there's a lot of dribbling with Messi and Maradona, but they can play quick one-touch football as well and I see Messi offering genuine width similar to his 2008-2010 role. To be honest he's the greatest right-winger of all time for me despite playing many of his best years more centrally.

 

[Lord SInister]

The problem is it looks good in theory definitely.
There is not a single GOAT, who didn't struggle when he was not allowed to express himself.

Messi in Argentina setup for example with all the striking talent around him never worked in 4-2-3-1 with Di Maria/Aguero/Higuain/Lavezzi/whoever.
Imagine Beckenbauer being told to stay back and take care of the defensive line and be ultra-disciplined, back in the day.
Or Roy Keane being told to sit between the centre backs or slot in for the Kaiser when he goes forward. It wasn't their game.

Sure, they are shiny names and its hard to argue when the assumption is they will be GOAT's no matter what setup you play them in.
But expecting a Kaiser to work like Kohler, r Messi like Robben or Keane like Makelele is what a good drafted team should not do.

That team desperately needed a Makelele esque figure. Keana and Tigana are quite redundant in an already attack minded setup allover the pitch from defense to attack.

Kaiser is not going to play like Kohler he is playing like a modern-day ball playing CB like Rio, Nesta supported by a stopper in Stam, nor is Keane going to play as Makelele.
It is Tigana who is more defensive of the two, and Keane is playing more attacking role than Tigana.
It is a double defensive shield.

Also Messi being a cutting in/switching play type of winger/lateral attacker hybrid is as devastating as it can be.

 

[Raees]

@idmanager @oneniltothearsenal for me Henry at Arsenal, with Pires, Bergkamp.. it is a very different situation to him being paired with a Ronaldo up top. That would be more akin to him being paired up top with Anelka - not an ideal tactical fit. Don't get me wrong the sheer athleticism and magic of them both, would ensure it is dangerous as hell and if it does click.. then woah, but in my head, just think it is a less than ideal fit - but might be wrong.

Henry as a LW with Ronaldo up top, is a different proposition i.e. the Henry at Barca. That would definitely work.

 

[idmanager]

@idmanager @oneniltothearsenal for me Henry at Arsenal, with Pires, Bergkamp.. it is a very different situation to him being paired with a Ronaldo up top. That would be more akin to him being paired up top with Anelka - not an ideal tactical fit. Don't get me wrong the sheer athleticism and magic of them both, would ensure it is dangerous as hell and if it does click.. then woah, but in my head, just think it is a less than ideal fit - but might be wrong.

Henry as a LW with Ronaldo up top, is a different proposition i.e. the Henry at Barca. That would definitely work.

I sort of understand where you are getting from, although majorly disagree. The Beckham role here makes it click for me, IMO.
You have enough space for all three to roam and express themselves.
Its perfect that both Henry and Ronaldo are capable of drifting wide to create space for themselves and others.

Yes if I would have started Overmars in this game, your point would have been valid to an extent. Hope that makes sense. Cheers.

 

[Enigma_87]

I think @idmanager did his best to bridge the individual gap in quality in this game. The only issue I see is probably Overmars on the right instead of Beckham. Beckham is indeed the better player but by far Lord Sinister weak spot is his left flank.

Ziege is the worst player on the park by some distance and putting an electric winger in Overmars to terrorize that flank would've definitely be of an advantage to idmanager.

Becks is the better player, but not the Giggs/Overmars type of winger to fully exploit the weak spot. On the other hand as a pure 4 men midfield I think idmanagers is really hard to upgrade. Excellent mixture of skill, drive and leadership.

The Henry/Ronaldo combo up front for me is mothwatering and have no issue with it whatsoever.

idmanager has set up pretty well soaking pressure and hitting on the counter and he has the players for it. The only question is whether his back 4 will sustain that pressure of Lord Sinister's GOAT attack.

 

[idmanager]

Overmars on the right instead of Beckham. Beckham is indeed the better player but by far Lord Sinister weak spot is his left flank.

That was a really tough decision. The reason I picked both Overmars and Beckham was for picking based on opposition.
Felt this game demanded another body in midfield and I do have pace in the other 3 forwards.

Regarding Ziege, I think as I mentioned above, Ronaldo like Henry has pace and is capable of drifting wide. Part of the reason why he was placed a bit on the right in the formation.
I would expect him to terrorize the Ziege side of the pitch when opportunities arise on counters.

 

[Moby]

but he would be happy to defer to Maradona and Messi inside him

I don't see it.

If you are talking about a young Ribery then yes he could do that like he did in the 2006 WC letting Zidane do all the heavy lifting while he was an off the ball outlet for goals (he also played on the right in that role) but at Bayern he was a big creating force. For example the CL final Bayern won had him providing great assists and creativity which is what he was renowned for.

There are three players who all preferred to be the creative force and more importantly will not be what they are famous for if they played off the ball.

 

[Enigma_87]

I don't see it.

If you are talking about a young Ribery then yes he could do that like he did in the 2006 WC letting Zidane do all the heavy lifting while he was an off the ball outlet for goals (he also played on the right in that role) but at Bayern he was a big creating force. For example the CL final Bayern won had him providing great assists and creativity which is what he was renowned for.

There are three players who all preferred to be the creative force and more importantly will not be what they are famous for if they played off the ball.

Agreed with this. At his peak at Bayern Ribery was one of the main creative forces. They often played Muller in the hole in 4-2-3-1 who is far from a playmaker, so they depended a lot on Ribery - which led to bagging a lot of assists and great contribution in the attacking third. Ribery was what Messi on the right was for Barca. With Messi already there I'd prefer a Robben type on the other side to balance it out. Usually in most 4-2-3-1 there is a typical winger and a playmaking wide forward or a goalscoring wide forward(if there are 2 deep playmakers in the center like Real with Modric and Kroos) on the other side. Lord Sinister has 2 playmaking wide forwards here.

Apart from that left side he has a monster of a team of course.

 

[idmanager]

Dietz against a few quality opponents:

On August 6, 1977 Duisburg met for the season opener in front of home crowd on the Hamburger SV with new signing star Kevin Keegan . With an outstanding defensive performance, Dietz was able to defend himself against the English striker and made possible a 5-2 success of his team

Only weeks later followed another remarkable game, as on November 5, Bayern traveled to Duisburg. The left-back was mainly responsible for defensive work against his Germany team-mate Karl-Heinz Rummenigge.
Rummenigge was kept silent for most of the game by Dietz with Duisburg winning 6-3 against a team that also included Gerd Muller.

 

[Gio]

I don't see it.

If you are talking about a young Ribery then yes he could do that like he did in the 2006 WC letting Zidane do all the heavy lifting while he was an off the ball outlet for goals (he also played on the right in that role) but at Bayern he was a big creating force. For example the CL final Bayern won had him providing great assists and creativity which is what he was renowned for.

There are three players who all preferred to be the creative force and more importantly will not be what they are famous for if they played off the ball.

That's always the case when you bring together GOAT sides. Of course he brings creativity and dribbling, otherwise he wouldn't be regarded as a top player, but I saw enough work rate, self-sacrifice and team ethic from Ribery at Bayern to suggest he can do a functional job here.

I agree with Crappy that Ribery will definitely have an influence here in the midfield battle. I fought for his selfless performances in the CL last season after Kroos went off injured countless times, because it seems like most people these days judge wingers on their goal stats. It wasn't a coincidence that Ribery was involved in a fight with Lewandowski in the middle of his own half in the CL final, that's what he did for us all the time. He was a key part in changing the game, whenever we struggled with our two man midfield (when Müller played as a 2nd striker) and with Cutch playing without an attacking fullback here, Ribery will have plenty of time to help out in the central areas.

The CL final really is a great summery for Ribery's peak at Bayern. Working hard in defense, when the team is in trouble, helping the midfield to get control of the game and still finding the time for the key pass to the first goal and the assist for the 2nd. He's also a bit of a cnut and could have been sent off when he lashed out to free himself from Lewandowski's hug, typical Ribery as well.

 

[Lord SInister]

I don't see it.

If you are talking about a young Ribery then yes he could do that like he did in the 2006 WC letting Zidane do all the heavy lifting while he was an off the ball outlet for goals (he also played on the right in that role) but at Bayern he was a big creating force. For example the CL final Bayern won had him providing great assists and creativity which is what he was renowned for.

There are three players who all preferred to be the creative force and more importantly will not be what they are famous for if they played off the ball.

let us take example of the same CL, where against Barcelona, he was helping out Alaba while also surging forward to pick up players.
I think Ribery's work rate and ability to help the team by giving numbers in the middle is being overlooked.
He has proved under Jupp Heynckes, that he can follow and successfully play a disciplined and tactically astute game plan.

 

[idmanager]

That's always the case when you bring together GOAT sides. Of course he brings creativity and dribbling, otherwise he wouldn't be regarded as a top player, but I saw enough work rate, self-sacrifice and team ethic from Ribery at Bayern to suggest he can do a functional job here.

Not limiting to the Ribery argument, but the number of 'functional jobs' being done here reduces the impact a hell lot from GOAT levels.
Ribery is doing a functional job, Messi is doing a functional job. Beckenbauer is doing a functional job. Ziege is trying to get a job.
That in itself removes the sheen out of that setup and lineup IMO.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Ribery is doing a functional job, Messi is doing a functional job. Beckenbauer is doing a functional job. Ziege is trying to get a job.

 

[P-Nut]

Expected to vote for Sinister straight away to be honest, but I love that 442 and think sinister is using the wrong version of Messi personally.

I’d have taken his early breakthrough version with insane speed and dribbling ability.

Sinister leads on star quality in both attack and defence, but I can’t decide if the added cohesiveness from IDM is enough to redress the balance. I’ll try and vote soon.

 

[Gio]

Not limiting to the Ribery argument, but the number of 'functional jobs' being done here reduces the impact a hell lot from GOAT levels.
Ribery is doing a functional job, Messi is doing a functional job. Beckenbauer is doing a functional job. Ziege is trying to get a job.
That in itself removes the sheen out of that setup and lineup IMO.

Indeed. Inevitably you don't quite get the maximum out of Messi (because he might want more positional freedom), Ribery (a fair sacrifice to make), possibly the Kaiser (although in fairness he was a superb defender in a back four), maybe if you're being hyper-critical Keane and Tigana (you might want someone to either hold or play-make, or both to give them a little more box-to-box freedom).

 

[idmanager]

Indeed

I'll take that indeed. Thanks

I love that 442

Thanks mate.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Any last minute bad-mouthing? Still quite polite so far (though nowhere near as polite as the first Draft matchup).

 

[P-Nut]

I’ve gone with IDM, the cohesiveness wins out over limiting GOATS for me. Extremely tight though I must say.

 

[Ecstatic]

@idmanager

Kudos. Brilliant job, fighting till the end Terribly unlucky with the draw, otherwise you would have got my vote for sure

Even if I do rate your players, I had the feeling Lord has the edge in terms of battle midfield and some 1vs1 battles.

 

[Ecstatic]

I’ve gone with IDM, the cohesiveness wins out over limiting GOATS for me. Extremely tight though I must say.

I'm very surprised

Henry Ronaldo
Overmars Petit Riquelme Basler
Favelli McGrath Costacurta Neville
VDS

I guess you heart was broken to see Overmars on the bench

 

[P-Nut]

I'm very surprised



I guess you heart was broken to see Overmars on the bench

I’ve voted for him not against man after my own heart with that front 2 and I just like the 442 he has managed.

I wanted to run a 442 myself but never had access to the right players.

 

[Raees]

@idmanager

Kudos. Brilliant job, fighting till the end Terribly unlucky with the draw, otherwise you would have got my vote for sure

Even if I do rate your players, I had the feeling Lord hade the edge in terms of battle midfield and some 1vs1 battles.

Impressive comeback.

 

[Ecstatic]

I’ve voted for him not against man after my own heart with that front 2 and I just like the 442 he has managed.

I wanted to run a 442 myself but never had access to the right players.

I know

 

[P-Nut]

I know

Oh right the confused emoji with no white text threw me off.

 

[idmanager]

@idmanager

Kudos. Brilliant job, fighting till the end Terribly unlucky with the draw, otherwise you would have got my vote for sure

Even if I do rate your players, I had the feeling Lord has the edge in terms of battle midfield and some 1vs1 battles.

Thanks mate

 

[idmanager]

Impressive comeback.

Cheers.

 

[Moby]

idmanager has started from where he left in terms of the tactical debate. He easily wins that for me, excellent stuff!

 

[idmanager]

I'll end my long list of arguments with 1 last video.
If you forget everyone else around for a sec, this is literally the last guy Maradona would pick in a list of greats to face. Said it himself.

Diego Maradona said of Lothar Matthäus, "He is the best rival I've ever had. I guess that's enough to define him"

I'll rest my case here.

 

[idmanager]

idmanager has started from where he left in terms of the tactical debate. He easily wins that for me, excellent stuff!

Cheers mate.