Yeah, on that point I agree. Definitely not an ideal team, but with Stam-Kaiser at the back he still edges it for me.A bit late in the day here.
Same can be said about Ribery anyway, and he's even more of a playmaker than Gento was and not the direct wingforward Messi or even Maradona for that matter would need there. His playmaking is massively redundant here as opposed to his Bayern role where he had direct players around him to feed.
Just don't see that attack being very complimentary despite the individual talent.
Dominoes draft: R1 - idmanager vs Lord Sinister
- Thread starter Tuppet
- Start date
@idmanager
Pros
- Henry
-Ronaldo a deadly DreamTeam partnership for my taste. Two of my best 4 favorite strikers
- The legend Matthaus
- Gento & Beckham to provide balance
Cons
- the defensive unit is a bit underwhelming to keep under control the tower Kocsis & Maradona
- The full-back would suffer also
Consider I love both attacks but the feeling that LordSinister is stronger defensively.
Once again, it's a semi-final worthy game
Pros
- Henry
-Ronaldo a deadly DreamTeam partnership for my taste. Two of my best 4 favorite strikers- The legend Matthaus
- Gento & Beckham to provide balance
Cons
- the defensive unit is a bit underwhelming to keep under control the tower Kocsis & Maradona
- The full-back would suffer also
Consider I love both attacks but the feeling that LordSinister is stronger defensively.
Once again, it's a semi-final worthy game
I think Stam-Kaiser is a perfect pairing for most games against most opponents. While the fullbacks are the bigger mismatches here, one needs to identify the kind of CB pairing you would want against 2 striker setups like Ronaldo and Henry.
Ideally, you'd want a pair which is not highly mobile from their defensive lines and can defend their zones. Here of course they have the added responsibility of covering for the attacking fullbacks.
Is Kaiser the right person for that role? I would rather have a less technically gifted but more rugged and disciplined player there who wasn't particularly slow.
Of course, not to say Beckenbauer was careless, but I guess you get the drift.
If this was a single striker setup, would have been something which the pair could have handled without making a meal out of it.
As I have pointed earlier, his defense is much more disjointed than mine from my perspective at least. Keeping the weight of the names aside.
Ideally, you'd want a pair which is not highly mobile from their defensive lines and can defend their zones. Here of course they have the added responsibility of covering for the attacking fullbacks.
Is Kaiser the right person for that role? I would rather have a less technically gifted but more rugged and disciplined player there who wasn't particularly slow.
Of course, not to say Beckenbauer was careless, but I guess you get the drift.
If this was a single striker setup, would have been something which the pair could have handled without making a meal out of it.
As I have pointed earlier, his defense is much more disjointed than mine from my perspective at least. Keeping the weight of the names aside.
Messi was not occupying the center of the field all the time during treble season. There was always an interchanging of the Neymar/Messi/Suarez taking on the middle with Messi being prominent one, but his share in the middle was more like 20% out of the 100% of his time in field, I saw some touches map, cannot find the link, where Messi would mostly be playing in the right, only to cut in , when it was for him to shoot or make a final pass.
Here also he is going to do the same, Maradona, in this formation, will always be ready to get between the id's lines and ask for the ball.
Once he is on the ball he will turn towards goal and either make a creative pass for Messi/Ribery/Kocsis or finish individually by striking on goal.
Messi is not playing a limited role when we look from output point(goals, assists and mazy dribbles). I am not sacrificing him for Maradona, rather built a system where strengths of Maradona(creation through the middle, either spreading to Messi/Ribery or playing Kocsis through) and Messi(playing a devastating final third player who cuts in) are adjusted and complimented, without either having any less impact on the output.
This was actually a harder decision than I thought when considering the star power on one team.
The players probably thought so too as Messi was seen staying after to get some practice in
Roy Keane would be up for it as always...doing his best Robin Hood impression here
As he steals from the rich, GoldenBalls himself over there, and gives to the poor.......man's version of a proper left winger
@idmanager
Pros
- Henry
- The legend Matthaus
- Gento & Beckham to provide balance
Cons
- the defensive unit is a bit underwhelming to keep under control the tower Kocsis & Maradona
- The full-back would suffer also
Consider I love both attacks but the feeling that LordSinister is stronger defensively.
Once again, it's a semi-final worthy game
Thanks for your comments as always mate. Always wait for them.
The bold part is something I strongly disagree with and the explanation is above.
Comparing this setup to any of Barca's setups is ludicrous.
Players of the ilk of Iniesta wouldn't mind stepping back and playing second fiddle, sort of the hidden heroes, while the front 3 did their bit. That won't happen in a front four like this.
You can't expect that of Maradona. Its just not his game.
And what exactly does Messi offer here if not for play making?
He is neither your traditional winger, nor your traditional inside forward. Play making has been the most important part of his stature and game, apart from scoring goals.
Players of the ilk of Iniesta wouldn't mind stepping back and playing second fiddle, sort of the hidden heroes, while the front 3 did their bit. That won't happen in a front four like this.
You can't expect that of Maradona. Its just not his game.
And what exactly does Messi offer here if not for play making?
He is neither your traditional winger, nor your traditional inside forward. Play making has been the most important part of his stature and game, apart from scoring goals.
Another interesting point I read from someone above was Messi not having a personality would make it easier to work with Maradona.
I think he has a huge alpha male personality with his peers on his team, of course, something that stays within there and doesn't come out.
Exactly why someone like Ibra didn't work there. You work the way it suites Messi, or you catch the highway.
He has his ways of acheiving it through inner channels of the club like coach and board rather than making a fuss about it in public.
Of course, that is how I have felt watching over the years. Others might not have, but I am sure quite a few buy into the theory and feel the same.
I think he has a huge alpha male personality with his peers on his team, of course, something that stays within there and doesn't come out.
Exactly why someone like Ibra didn't work there. You work the way it suites Messi, or you catch the highway.
He has his ways of acheiving it through inner channels of the club like coach and board rather than making a fuss about it in public.
Of course, that is how I have felt watching over the years. Others might not have, but I am sure quite a few buy into the theory and feel the same.
sorry but what??
Sorry if I am sounding rash at times, don't mean too. The kick off got delayed a lot and its 2 AM here. Trying hard to read and type
Oooh, Shiny player not working? Sorry, what mate? You mad bro?
I have pointed my reasons mate.
Sorry about that man, I am on the pacific time zone so its probably going to happen to most match threads or we'll need to find another neutral to start the match threads.Sorry if I am sounding rash at times, don't mean too. The kick off got delayed a lot and its 2 AM here. Trying hard to read and type
No worries mate.
Same can be said about Ribery anyway, and he's even more of a playmaker than Gento was and not the direct wingforward Messi or even Maradona for that matter would need there. His playmaking is massively redundant here as opposed to his Bayern role where he had direct players around him to feed.
Just don't see that attack being very complimentary despite the individual talent.
If we look at the Real of the 50s, we could say Gento was a pure winger and Kopa was more a playmaker.
Ribéry was successful in a very disciplined team where:
- Lewandoski/Mandzukic would play the role of Kocsis >>>> all 3 are "collective players"
- Robben to be replaced by Messi
- The free-role forward Thomas Muller replaced by the attacking/playmaking Maradona
Ribéry is capable to support super stars and has both the required work-rate & aggressivity to make the attack of lordsinester harmonious.
Of course, IdManager also has an harmonious attack
@Ecstatic ,
That Bayern example is not a good one. Firstly, Muller is your definition of a team player in the attack, making unselfish plays. And of course, someone who doesn't demand space or the ball all the time.
If anything, Ribery+Robben would exactly appreciate this kind of a player around them.
Put someone like a Maradona there and it blows off the pressure cooker.
That Bayern example is not a good one. Firstly, Muller is your definition of a team player in the attack, making unselfish plays. And of course, someone who doesn't demand space or the ball all the time.
If anything, Ribery+Robben would exactly appreciate this kind of a player around them.
Put someone like a Maradona there and it blows off the pressure cooker.
I am not mad bro, but you are saying that Messi not being the primary playmaker will render him useless, which I don't think is true.
Messi can cut in, make plays and be a constant threat out wide, given his range of distribution, creativity, shooting, cutting in and dribbling ability.
I dont see how him being in wings or wide area will make him useless or limited?
Firstly, the bold part says all that needs to be said.
I don't doubt his distribution (again not playmaking?).
But if his game is all about cutting in and shooting, he is not even half the player here, compared to the one he is in real.
FYI, I didn't call you mad. That was an example of you saying how a shiny player not working in a setup is just wrong
Need to grab a cig to stay awake a bit more time. Be back in a while. Appreciate the discussion folks.
Firstly, the bold part says all that needs to be said.
I don't doubt his distribution (again not playmaking?).
But if his game is all about cutting in and shooting, he is not even half the player here, compared to the one he is in real.
FYI, I didn't call you mad. That was an example of you saying how a shiny player not working in a setup is just wrong
Half a Messi is still better than almost all the players in the world
you should better, I am again stuck in office, today, so again no sleep for me
tonight.On top of that almost every website is blocked in our office, thankfully redcafe is opening.
Going to be long night, as my work will start in half an hour.
I can buy Messi as a forward in a 2 striker formation (esp as a Puskas'esque partner to Kocsis), but not out wide in a 4-2-3-1. What Michel can do better than Messi is not be in way of Maradona, i.e. stay out of the box
He can shuttle out wide, provide crosses to Kocsis, or play a supporting role in passing the ball to Diego. With Gento there, I'd not expect any support from Gerets and Michel is better suited to man a flank alone than Messi.It isn't a remake draft
Maradona is more complete and tactically flexible than you probably think.
Also, think about Kocsis who was part of a golden team comprised of Puskas, Hidegkuti, Czibor, Budai, Bozcik... A lot of different super stars and it worked.
It means Kocsis is the right platform for other players
Despite lack of quality, I think idmamanger's defence is better suited to task at hand. No frills, just sit back and defend and they have a excellent duo shielding them. Dietz playing tucked in will help against Messi and Neville vs Ribery is quite even too. Gento vs Gerets would need Beckenbauer to provide support and that may hamper his attacking contribution a little imo. You had Schwarzenback and Vogts to balance out Breitner and Beckenbauer, which is not the case here.
That Napoli setup @Ecstatic posted of Magica is the one I see Messi-Maradona work in. Not the current one by miles.
Something like this. (Bonus as to why Kaiser is not quite right in the game's setup as well)
Something like this. (Bonus as to why Kaiser is not quite right in the game's setup as well)
Anyways, I will pick up the pieces tomorrow if anything left. Gotta hit the bed now.
TBF, the comparaison between Germany 74 (or 72) with LordSinister has its limits because the tactical systems aren't fully similar.
You also need to take into account what Keane, Tigana, Ribéry bring in terms of defensive contribution.
The same. Good night
That Napoli setup @Ecstatic posted of Magica is the one I see Messi-Maradona work in. Not the current one by miles.
Something like this. (Bonus as to why Kaiser is not quite right in the game's setup as well)
The difference isn't so huge.
Ribéry is Fachetti in your team
Ziege is Maldini
And you can guess the rest!
They might work well in a narrow'ish 4-4-2. Put both forward with enough space behing them (no #10) and surround them with players who can feed them the ball and they can work as a duo.
..........Maradona...Messi..........
Nedved......................Beckham
..........Davids...Neeskens...........
Facchetti...Baresi...Nesta...Zanetti
This was actually a harder decision than I thought when considering the star power on one team.
The players probably thought so too as Messi was seen staying after to get some practice in
Roy Keane would be up for it as always...doing his best Robin Hood impression here
As he steals from the rich, GoldenBalls himself over there, and gives to the poor.......man's version of a proper left winger
Exactly what I had in mind when I commented on your game ..... not sure why the picture of Peter Beardsley at the end though??
I mean a Lingard would do better if the goal is not to be in the way of Maradona, thats not a very good goal though. Messi without a doubt would provide more from the flank than someone like Michel.I can buy Messi as a forward in a 2 striker formation (esp as a Puskas'esque partner to Kocsis), but not out wide in a 4-2-3-1. What Michel can do better than Messi is not be in way of Maradona, i.e. stay out of the box
I had this issue before as well, like when Pele is played as a lone striker or Matthaus is played as a defensive midfielder. I get that its not their best positions but that doesn't mean they are useless now. In any attacking position, regardless of tactic and team mates, there are only a very small number of players I would chose over Messi and Michel is not one of them by far.
Which 3 year peak are you using for Messi?
Beckham crossing to Maradona and Messi
.. waitI am using his 2012/15 era, ignoring he got injured during that phase.
All the comments about Messi and Maradona not working as they both need same space or possible personality clashes, etc .... don't get it.
They're not going to run into each other and go 'this is my area, go away'.... 'no it's not, it's mine!'. Unlike some legends who had set positions/certain areas of the pitch that created their GOATness (new word), they're two amazingly fluid geniuses who could play all over the opposing half and see no issue in them playing together and working it out.
I could actually see it going the other way and possibly raising each other to UberGOAT-like heights - instead of thinking 'who would make that pass?'/'would they get in each other's way?', I'd be thinking 'there's two great options', 'two individual geniuses to mark', 'two greats who can score individually', 'two people to feed Kocsis'. Maybe I'm just too glass-half full but I don't see a downside in a Maradona/Messi linkup
For the rest of it, both sides liberally sprinkled with excellent players - love the two central midfields (Tigana always a favourite of mine) and good defences, but Stam/Beckenbauer!
Bit like first game - two excellent sides and unlucky to be drawn against each other as could see them beating majority of other teams. Good luck.
They're not going to run into each other and go 'this is my area, go away'.... 'no it's not, it's mine!'. Unlike some legends who had set positions/certain areas of the pitch that created their GOATness (new word), they're two amazingly fluid geniuses who could play all over the opposing half and see no issue in them playing together and working it out.
I could actually see it going the other way and possibly raising each other to UberGOAT-like heights - instead of thinking 'who would make that pass?'/'would they get in each other's way?', I'd be thinking 'there's two great options', 'two individual geniuses to mark', 'two greats who can score individually', 'two people to feed Kocsis'. Maybe I'm just too glass-half full but I don't see a downside in a Maradona/Messi linkup
For the rest of it, both sides liberally sprinkled with excellent players - love the two central midfields (Tigana always a favourite of mine) and good defences, but Stam/Beckenbauer!
Bit like first game - two excellent sides and unlucky to be drawn against each other as could see them beating majority of other teams. Good luck.
Random thoughts..
Can Messi and Maradona work together? probably but is it a great fit? no, highly doubtful. Both have exceptional football IQ and are very selfless on the pitch, they love making great assists almost as much as they love going for goal. The way I see them working in tandem is if we assume it is a prime Diego of 1986 and a younger version of Messi ala 2008/09, on the verge of greatness but has all the dribbling speed, constant running threat in the final third albeit not being played as a false 9 but playing out wise.. so not quite at his best, but in a position he is more than comfortable in and at his physical peak in terms of being a direct threat. Sort of like prime Dinho but as a 10 combining with that young peak Messi.
Gerets and Ziege help provide width which is important, in that even if they step on each others toes and there is an abundance of threat through the centre, there is always the easy out ball to full backs with good thrust out wide, which is similar to Barca under Pep. We had Alves and Abidal, helping to provide width and allowing Iniesta and Messi the room to co-operate harmoniously rather than getting in each others way. That said, one is a LAM and the other a RW/F9 whereas Diego and Messi like roaming down the right and cutting in. Diego does however roam on both sides of the pitch so he'll have to be careful to ensure he isn't always on same side of pitch as Messi.
With regards to the other side.. it is arguable that Henry and Ronaldo aren't an ideal partnership either. Both are runners with the ball, all-rounders granted but I can see Henry being a tad intimidated with R9 as a partner. He was at his best when he felt special and the main man.. also I'd have Henry as the slightly deeper one on the graphic if you are going to pair them. On paper it looks a great front 6, but I do question if players like Beckham and Gento are perfect fits for an Henry. He's the one who looks an odd fit in that front 6, everyone else looks ideal though Effenberg and Matthaus are not a great match either in practice. Effenberg again likes to be the main man and I think he would hate being partnered with Matthaus.
Can Messi and Maradona work together? probably but is it a great fit? no, highly doubtful. Both have exceptional football IQ and are very selfless on the pitch, they love making great assists almost as much as they love going for goal. The way I see them working in tandem is if we assume it is a prime Diego of 1986 and a younger version of Messi ala 2008/09, on the verge of greatness but has all the dribbling speed, constant running threat in the final third albeit not being played as a false 9 but playing out wise.. so not quite at his best, but in a position he is more than comfortable in and at his physical peak in terms of being a direct threat. Sort of like prime Dinho but as a 10 combining with that young peak Messi.
Gerets and Ziege help provide width which is important, in that even if they step on each others toes and there is an abundance of threat through the centre, there is always the easy out ball to full backs with good thrust out wide, which is similar to Barca under Pep. We had Alves and Abidal, helping to provide width and allowing Iniesta and Messi the room to co-operate harmoniously rather than getting in each others way. That said, one is a LAM and the other a RW/F9 whereas Diego and Messi like roaming down the right and cutting in. Diego does however roam on both sides of the pitch so he'll have to be careful to ensure he isn't always on same side of pitch as Messi.
With regards to the other side.. it is arguable that Henry and Ronaldo aren't an ideal partnership either. Both are runners with the ball, all-rounders granted but I can see Henry being a tad intimidated with R9 as a partner. He was at his best when he felt special and the main man.. also I'd have Henry as the slightly deeper one on the graphic if you are going to pair them. On paper it looks a great front 6, but I do question if players like Beckham and Gento are perfect fits for an Henry. He's the one who looks an odd fit in that front 6, everyone else looks ideal though Effenberg and Matthaus are not a great match either in practice. Effenberg again likes to be the main man and I think he would hate being partnered with Matthaus.
Oh Raees, this post was going so well until the bold and then it takes a hard right and crashes into a tree.
From watching Henry's career and hearing many interviews and reading books on him, I see zero evidence that the bold is anything but imagination. For me, that statement has as much validity as saying Messi would be "intimidated" to play with Diego or the 'somewhat socially awkward' Jaap would be intimidated playing next to Der Kaiser. Everywhere Henry went from Bergkamp to Zlatan and Eto'o Henry never felt "intimidated" playing with anyone. And even his lack of chemistry with Zidane had more to do with their play styles being not very compatible rather than anything to do with Henry feeling intimidated. I remember a conversation with an Arsenal mate from around 01 where we both were saying Arsenal should sign Ronaldo (but sadly probably won't).
EDIT:
Oh I should add that I remember some people thinking Romario-Ronaldo wouldn't work because neither played as a support striker but the combo did work well. Henry-Ronaldo is similar in that sense.
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He played with Eto'o and Messi as left forward. No call for him to hog main man title.
Oh Raees, this post was going so well until the bold and then it takes a hard right and crashes into a tree.
From watching Henry's career and hearing many interviews and reading books on him, I see zero evidence that the bold is anything but imagination. For me, that statement has as much validity as saying Messi would be "intimidated" to play with Diego or the 'somewhat socially awkward' Jaap would be intimidated playing next to Der Kaiser. Everywhere Henry went from Bergkamp to Zlatan and Eto'o Henry never felt "intimidated" playing with anyone. And even his lack of chemistry with Zidane had more to do with their play styles being not very compatible rather than anything to do with Henry feeling intimidated. I remember a conversation with an Arsenal mate from around 01 where we both were saying Arsenal should sign Ronaldo (but sadly probably won't).
EDIT:
Oh I should add that I remember some people thinking Romario-Ronaldo wouldn't work because neither played as a support striker but the combo did work well. Henry-Ronaldo is similar in that sense.
You're taking intimidated too literally as in he would shit himself. He'd still be great but he'd be inhibited just a touch just like he was for France in comparison to his full flowering at Arsenal.
He was compatible with all the other guys but they're not Zidane level and by time we get to Etoo - he was older and wiser.. more secure and playing as a LW but peak Henry I always had slight doubts about him when he was playing for the NT .. never quite saw him at 100%.
As for Ro and Ro. Romario has insane confidence and it was a little and large combo but both guys fed of each other's brilliance with both having superstar uber confident personalities in any given situation whereas I would argue Henry at France v Arsenal persona was touch different. He was the man at Arsenal, unrivalled in the EPL and that made a difference.
All I'm saying is we might see 80-90% of Henry vs 100% in this pairing (assuming we're using a 2001-2004) but obviously you being a gooner I can see why you'd think I'm talking out my arse.
Ended up going with idm.
As said above the Ribery - Maradona - Messi in a 4-2-3-1 is a bit problematic for me and idm has a fantastic midfield that can make a good match up of this.
Similarly, that front two of Henry and Ronaldo are going to be devastating with that platform and needed a more no nonsense defensive line to deal with them, their physicality and athleticism will cause trouble for Kaiser and Stam (who turned like a tank and someone like Ronaldo will turn him with ease).
All in all both defenses will be exposed quite a bit here and I think idm just edges it in terms of firepower.
As said above the Ribery - Maradona - Messi in a 4-2-3-1 is a bit problematic for me and idm has a fantastic midfield that can make a good match up of this.
Similarly, that front two of Henry and Ronaldo are going to be devastating with that platform and needed a more no nonsense defensive line to deal with them, their physicality and athleticism will cause trouble for Kaiser and Stam (who turned like a tank and someone like Ronaldo will turn him with ease).
All in all both defenses will be exposed quite a bit here and I think idm just edges it in terms of firepower.