Does depth really matter?

Yes. You probably don't need two literal line-ups worth of good players, but you do need options in reserve who are capable of playing a position without there being a huge drop off. It helps massively if you can avoid injuries but that's not something most teams can count on, especially when there's an ever increasing number of games.

The situations with Ronaldo/Martial and Eriksen which have forced us to dip into the loan market are evidence of the necessity for good squad depth. We'd be similarly fecked if Casemiro were to get a long-term injury.
 
If we had a decent replacement for Neres and not having to bring on Magallan as extra defender on may 9 2019 we would have played the CL final and honestly believe we would have gone all the way. No you don't need 22 players of similar quality but 11 superb and 11 meh will cost you in the end.
 
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Depth is there to enable you to compete on four fronts but fundamentally you need to keep your 'talisman/men' on the pitch to win big trophies.

Leicester kept Vardy and Mahrez fit all season and never got caught. I feel if Arsenal can keep Saka and Odegaard fit they'll maintain their lead
 
I think you only have to look at what malacia has done to Shaw to realise it's not just a case of having 2 players for each position, it's the COMPETITION that pushes them to be better
 
Depth really does matter. You can't have a trophy winning squad without an excellent starting XI, but you also can't have a trophy winning squad without depth.

Injuries and suspensions happen all the time.
 
Course it matters. We wouldn't have won half as much without having a full squad of quality players who were trusted to step in when needed. Ferguson rotated loads and won trophy after trophy
 
Yeah depth is definitely important and like others have said it helps when players can play multiple positions.

I still feel this squad is short of a backup CB to cover Rapha/Martinez,CDM to cover Casa,AM to cover Bruno,ST to cover starter we hopefully sign in the summer. RB is a bit of dilemma with Gusto off the table now,other option is signing someone who can play CB & RB.
 
World class team spine is the most important thing in a winning team. Doesn't matter if one important player missing, the spine of the team stay strong with the replacement coming in doing a decent job to keep the form going.

In the modern days, planning and tactics is as important as the quality of players.

Depth does matter, but not to the extreme as "we need 2 top quality players in each position" type. That is a myth.
 
World class team spine is the most important thing in a winning team. Doesn't matter if one important player missing, the spine of the team stay strong with the replacement coming in doing a decent job to keep the form going.

In the modern days, planning and tactics is as important as the quality of players.

Depth does matter, but not to the extreme as "we need 2 top quality players in each position" type. That is a myth.
Pretty much this. I've no idea who invented this notion that a team needs two top players in each position to win. We certainly never had that. The great Barcelona side didn't. Heynckes's Bayern didn't and Klopp's Liverpool didn't to name but a few. In fact, I am not sure which squad in history consisted of two WC players in each position.
 
You need 18 really good players (Striker, winger, AM/CM, DM, CB, FB (different foot than the CB ideally), keeper). Probably not a complete coincidence that you're allowed 17 non-HG overage players in the Prem, you can basically have a full team of foreigners with just one HG player.
 
you don’t win major trophies without depth, however 22 world class players would be very hard to manage. You do need more than a world class starting 11 though. Players are happy if they play plenty and play a major part in winning trophies. Winning and feeling part of something bigger than you is the key.
Barcelona 2008-9 didn’t have depth except for defence. They still went on to win a treble and I regard them as the best club football team since I started watching football.
 
On Football Manager I have 18 players and just use youth players to pad the squad whenever I have injuries. I do wonder if EtH has thought of that or whether I should reach out.
 
Our fans in particular (whether it was Ole, or now under ETH) seem obsessed with depth and needing 2 players for each position. I think the people enviously look back at the way Fergie used to manage his squad and Guardiola does.

But quite frankly, I think very, very few coaches in modern football actually know how to manage a big squad. Do you just often end up creating a second team of unhappy players, who won't see any game time and then ruin squad morale?

Quite frankly, I don't want to hear any excuse about a lack of depth stopping us from competing in the future. I don't think it would make any difference.
The squad depth will allow us to compete in lot of competition and to avoid the unhappy players, hence we need a slimmer squad but focusing more on quality squad depth not quantity depth like Man City are. For example, we don't need 11 starting XI with another 11 squad depth. If you look at Man City, they only have 18 first team outfield players. (10 outfield starters and 8 outfield squad depth). 2 of them like Kalvin Phillips and Gomez are barely even used, while the likes of Laporte has been injured which means they are just rotating 4 or 5 of their starting XI.

We can just have 4 starting defenders + 3 backup/rotation to cover 4 spots, we don't need 4 starting defenders + 4 backup/rotation. 3 starting midfielders + 2 good backup/rotation to cover 3 spots, we don't need 3 starters + 3 backup/rotation. We can have 10 outfield starters and 7 outfield first team squad depth, while the rest should be covered by the youth or players with very low wages like 50k or 60k p/w for extra bodies (For example Alvarez and Sergio Gomez from City are only on 50k p.w).

An example of poor squad depth is the situation of our CB where we have 5 first team players that can cover 2 positions (Varane, Martinez, Shaw, Lindelof, Maguire). We don't need that many.
 
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The squad depth will allow us to compete in lot of competition and to avoid the unhappy players, hence we need a slimmer squad but focusing more on quality squad depth not quantity depth like Man City are. For example, we don't need 11 starting XI with another 11 squad depth. If you look at Man City, they only have 18 first team outfield players. (10 outfield starters and 8 outfield squad depth). 2 of them like Kalvin Phillips and Gomez are barely even used, while the likes of Laporte has been injured which means they are just rotating 4 or 5 of their starting XI.

We can just have 4 starting defenders + 3 good backup/rotation to cover 4 spots, we don't need 4 starting defenders + 4 backup/rotation. 3 starting midfielders + 2 good backup/rotation to cover 3 spots, we don't need 3 starters + 3 backup/rotation. We can have 10 outfield starters and 7 or 8 outfield first team squad depth, while the rest should be covered by the youth.

An example of poor squad depth is the situation of our CB where we have 5 first team players that can cover 2 positions (Varane, Martinez, Shaw, Lindelof, Maguire). We don't need that many.

Does Chelsea have the best quality squad depth in EPL for now ?
 
I think tactically it's important also. Unless you have a mind-blowing team the ability to be flexible and unpredictable both tactically and with personnel is big.

If you always play the same way with the same 11 you enable the opposition to be able to prepare for that. Some teams might be so good they can get away with that, but that's rare.
 
Barcelona 2008-9 didn’t have depth except for defence. They still went on to win a treble and I regard them as the best club football team since I started watching football.
They also had the best player of all time and arguably the best manager of all time, a long with the majority of a euro Cup winning squad with Spain. Surely this example is a little hard to defend.
The point people aren't getting is, to keep a happy squad you actually need a manager capable of managing a big squad. In all the time I've watched football - that list consists of 2 managers. Pep Guardiola and Alex Ferguson.

The other great managers co have preferred working with smaller and more compact squads because it's much easier for them to manage and don't like rotating game to game to keep players sharp and happy. They'd rather manage injuries as they came along, rather than constantly having to keep starting quality players sharp somehow.
Did zidane keep a small squad?
Liverpool seemed like they played the same eleven nearly every week in recent years and they haven’t faired too badly.
I love the sarcasm here.
I think you only have to look at what malacia has done to Shaw to realise it's not just a case of having 2 players for each position, it's the COMPETITION that pushes them to be better
It’s true for some players, not all are like Messi and Ronaldo, Rooneys who just have true grit and go out there and body through games. The club psychologist really should have worked that out about Shaw, and martials issues. What are these psychologist doing?
 
Does Chelsea have the best quality squad depth in EPL for now ?
I think they have too many, I haven't really check their squad thoroughly though. Feels like they are currently have quantity over quality. I prefer slimmer squad with quality depth that is more versatile to cover other areas like Shaw as LB can cover CB. Ake a CB that can cover LB. BSilva a midfielder that can cover RW. This will counter the poster's argument about end up creating unhappiness within the squad. Easier to manage and benefit to anticipate the new rule FFP.
 
You need 18 really good players (Striker, winger, AM/CM, DM, CB, FB (different foot than the CB ideally), keeper). Probably not a complete coincidence that you're allowed 17 non-HG overage players in the Prem, you can basically have a full team of foreigners with just one HG player.

How many of those do you think we have so far and what depth do we still need to address in next couple of windows
 
The squad depth will allow us to compete in lot of competition and to avoid the unhappy players, hence we need a slimmer squad but focusing more on quality squad depth not quantity depth like Man City are. For example, we don't need 11 starting XI with another 11 squad depth. If you look at Man City, they only have 18 first team outfield players. (10 outfield starters and 8 outfield squad depth). 2 of them like Kalvin Phillips and Gomez are barely even used, while the likes of Laporte has been injured which means they are just rotating 4 or 5 of their starting XI.

We can just have 4 starting defenders + 3 backup/rotation to cover 4 spots, we don't need 4 starting defenders + 4 backup/rotation. 3 starting midfielders + 2 good backup/rotation to cover 3 spots, we don't need 3 starters + 3 backup/rotation. We can have 10 outfield starters and 7 outfield first team squad depth, while the rest should be covered by the youth or players with very low wages like 50k or 60k p/w for extra bodies (For example Alvarez and Sergio Gomez from City are only on 50k p.w).

An example of poor squad depth is the situation of our CB where we have 5 first team players that can cover 2 positions (Varane, Martinez, Shaw, Lindelof, Maguire). We don't need that many.

How many of them should we sell this summer?
 
Our fans in particular (whether it was Ole, or now under ETH) seem obsessed with depth and needing 2 players for each position. I think the people enviously look back at the way Fergie used to manage his squad and Guardiola does.

But quite frankly, I think very, very few coaches in modern football actually know how to manage a big squad. Do you just often end up creating a second team of unhappy players, who won't see any game time and then ruin squad morale?

Quite frankly, I don't want to hear any excuse about a lack of depth stopping us from competing in the future. I don't think it would make any difference.
Look at Fergie’s line of strikers in our last PL’s winning season: Persie, Rooney, Welbeck, Hernandez. And he DID want to bring in Lewandowski in that winter transfer. THAT is depth.
 
Liverpool seemed like they played the same eleven nearly every week in recent years and they haven’t faired too badly.

They’ve been kind of volatile though. Brilliant season followed by a season of injury and struggle. Then bouncing back to a brilliant season. Seems a classic example of a lack of depth.
 
I think what people forget in recent seasons is the disruption caused by Covid and the World Cup. Both have condensed the schedules and caused thin squads real problems.

In more normal seasons smaller squads filled with quality can work. Mourinho and Klopp have both had success with less rotation.

There is usually a trade off though. Mourinho and Guardiola have both won a bunch of league cups but neither have won a CL with an English club. It could be that using your first team players in that tournament cos them later in the year. Liverpool going for the quadruple probably cost them the CL or League or is costing them this year.
 
A good 18 player squad is about right for a normal season. In our 2007-08 season, we had 18 players who played at least 20 games, starting + sub. Our defence was pretty much the same Evra-Rio-Vidic-Brown (Neville was out for the entire season) with O'Shea contributing as a versatile backup and almost the same attack (Ronaldo-Tevez-Rooney).

The difference this time around is the world cup in Dec which messed things up quite a bit, so it's not exactly a normal season.

S.No​
Pos.​
Name​
Total​
1​
DF​
Wes Brown​
52​
2​
DF​
Rio Ferdinand​
51​
3​
FW​
Cristiano Ronaldo​
49​
4​
MF​
Michael Carrick​
49​
5​
DF​
Patrice Evra​
48​
6​
FW​
Carlos Tevez​
48​
7​
DF​
Nemanja Vidić​
45​
8​
GK​
Edwin van der Sar​
44​
9​
FW​
Wayne Rooney​
43​
10​
MF​
Ryan Giggs (vc)​
43​
11​
MF​
Paul Scholes​
43​
12​
MF​
Nani​
41​
13​
MF​
Anderson​
38​
14​
DF​
John O'Shea​
38​
15​
MF​
Owen Hargreaves​
34​
16​
MF​
Park Ji-sung​
28​
17​
FW​
Louis Saha​
24​
18​
MF​
Darren Fletcher​
24​
19​
GK​
Tomasz Kuszczak​
16​
20​
DF​
Gerard Piqué​
13​
21​
DF​
Danny Simpson​
8​
22​
DF​
Mikaël Silvestre​
6​
23​
MF​
Chris Eagles​
6​
 
How many of them should we sell this summer?

For the outfield players:

CB: We only need Varane and Lisandro, plus one CB to cover Varane, while Shaw to cover Lisandro. Hence, I will sell one of Lindelof or Maguire but if we sell both then we can sign young CB for future Varane's replacement.
FB: I will keep four (Dalot, Bissaka, Shaw, Malacia).
Midfield: As for midfield, I would do what City does. Signed one that is good enough to rotate with Eriksen and Bruno like BSilva and KDB are rotated with Gundogan. Then sign Casemiro's backup like Pep signed Phillips as Rodri's backup. Sell VDB, Fred, and McTominay. The Casemiro himself was used as CB before and it will be nice to find Casemiro's backup who can play CB too.
Forward: This one is tricky because we have lot of forwards on high wages so it's hard to move them on. Elanga is the only realistic to sell.

The likes of Williams, Telles, Bailly should also be moved on.

7 defenders, 5 midfields, 6 forwards may be. 18 outfield squad + few youth.
 
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Yup. More so in some positions than others. Fullbacks need to be decent as cover, we have the perfect situation there right now.

CB ideal for me is one reliable CB as cover, and then another young CB who has high potential.

Midfield depends - ideally you have 3 players at a high level who are versatile and you can do different partnerships in the deep 2 positions. Same idea for the wingers. Have 3 rotating for 2 spots and then a younger guy to grow. #10 as cover for someone like Bruno you probably just need someone versatile with either the deep midfielders or the other attackers, as they won't play much otherwise.

Striker to have a top striker, and then a different style player to be the bench impact sub rather than like for like swap.

So in terms of reliable subs, 1 CB, the fullbacks, 1 deep mid, 1 winger, 1 striker. And then the other CB, deep mid, winger and 10 are more distant depth/younger guys.
 
Unless you are on asthma meds, you will need a big squad. Doesn't mean 22 players of the same level or something.
 
How many of those do you think we have so far and what depth do we still need to address in next couple of windows

Striker (2) - We have 1 if Martial is healthy he's one and we need one more, my guess is it will be Ramos as he was a 2nd striker last year and is a big rangy technical #9 just seems like that's what Ten Hag wants for this system. My guess is Martial stays for one more year at least, except his contract is out in 2024. Normally someone from Spain or Italy would offer us a decent sum for him and bank on him being healthier in his late 20s than early 20s, but those clubs don't seem to have a ton of money anymore. So my guess is he signs a deal for an extra 2 years and stays.

Winger (3) - Rashford, Garnacho, Antony, Sancho we're fine here, even have an extra as well as Amad, Pellistri and Elanga as young players of whom you'd expect one (Amad at the moment) to end up being enough quality and bonus for being left-footed.

CM (4) - Bruno, Eriksen, Sabitzer, Casemiro. Fred is probably a great 6th midfielder for an all-conquering team, maybe 5th. I think Sabitzer will probably stay and do well here and with one of Sancho or Amad as promising options as #10s, we might hold off on a huge CM signing this summer, apart from spending say 23M on Sabitzer, and just buy a cheaper young backup DM to be mentored by Casemiro and sell McTominay (because he asks to leave).

FB (3) - Dalot, Shaw and Malacia, we are one of those teams without an obvious 2nd RB playing CB or a quite consistent enough academy at this position to expect a backup for this spot (like Real Madrid for example), which is probably a sign of incompetence since roughly 1/3rd of the 30 or so English players who could play serious minutes for us are RBs. So we need a 2nd. Wan-Bissaka has been lately, but I think we'll sign a better attacking RB since Ten Hag is committed to Antony (whose best quality is retaining the space and cycling possession (like a strong on the boards hockey winger but with quick feet instead of strength) and creates good spaces for a RB to run into and create. Think of how great Reece James would be as our RB for instance? Not easy to find one like that, but it's worth spending some money on I think. Especially since the other RW options are also good at linking with fullbacks in Amad and Sancho.

CB (3) - Lisandro, Varane and we need a 3rd to replace Maguire. Someone right-footed and good in the air. Maguire is actually a decent fit he'll just want to leave to start somewhere and keep his England place and pride (and I think he enjoys playing) and like Wan-Bissaka, he's a Prem proven HG player and that means his floor should be a healthy 20M+. Lindelof is a 4th CB, and I say that liking his fit under Ten Hag more than most.

GK (2) - I think we have 1. De Gea is a decent goalkeeper but he's all wrong for how Ten Hag wants to play. But Heaton I think is underrated and can comfortably back up the new starter for another year or two before he ages out of doing that.

So, for this season, without Eriksen, we fall short at Striker, CM/DM and GK anytime the ball is not being actively shot at De Gea. I'm optimistic that Sabitzer will fit in well even if his best football was in more of a pressing setup and he won't have the sheer quality passing of Eriksen so we will have some games where we struggle to link play as well as we have, but we also will be a better team from minute 50-90 or at least 50-70 which mitigates things. So, if making moves is tough and we just keep everyone (including Sabitzer but not Weghorst) you'd say we're really only a Striker, keeper and DM short of a complete squad on paper, just need to pray Varane holds up.
 
For the outfield players:

CB: We only need Varane and Lisandro, plus one CB to cover Varane, while Shaw to cover Lisandro. Hence, I will sell one of Lindelof or Maguire but if we sell both then we can sign young CB for future Varane's replacement.
FB: I will keep four (Dalot, Bissaka, Shaw, Malacia).
Midfield: As for midfield, I would do what City does. Signed one that is good enough to rotate with Eriksen and Bruno like BSilva and KDB are rotated with Gundogan. Then sign Casemiro's backup like Pep signed Phillips as Rodri's backup. Sell VDB, Fred, and McTominay. The Casemiro himself was used as CB before and it will be nice to find Casemiro's backup who can play CB too.
Forward: This one is tricky because we have lot of forwards on high wages so it's hard to move them on. Elanga is the only realistic to sell.

The likes of Williams, Telles, Bailly should also be moved on.

7 defenders, 5 midfields, 6 forwards may be. 18 outfield squad + few youth.

What about selling Maguire and bringing in either Min-Jae from Napoli or maybe N'dicka as free agent.

Still feel we need a starter CM whether that's more in mould of a Caicedo or more of a De Jong type. Which do you think would fit this system better. I also wouldn't be against Sabitzer if he impresses and there is chance to make it permanent.
 
Guess if we are lucky with injuries we don't really need that much depth in our squad.
 
Yes. Ask Liverpool.

For evidence, see City.
 
If you are in 4 different competitions then yes its vitally important - don't need 2 players in each position though as long as you have some versatile players
 
Yes. If bruno gets injured we are completely fecked. Don't have anyone as creative as him. Same goes for Case. No one in the squad can do what they do.
 
Yes it does, but squad depth doesn't mean 22 world class players.

I think our club should always be aiming to win every competition it enters as a realistic ambition, that means a lot of games, and towards the business end of the cup competitions, it means games against really good opposition. That means when we rotate, the quality of player should not drop, or even if it does, the impact shouldn't be felt on the team.

Nicky Butt was not as good as Scholes or Keane, but he did a job at a high level. James Milner did that at Liverpool for years. We had Pique and Evans as 3rd and 4th choice centre backs. Yet in the same team we had Berbatov as a 4th choice attacker.

If we stick to 4231, I think we need;

2 top tier strikers (Kane, someone else)
4 top tier central midfielders (Bruno, Casemiro, Eriksen, someone else)
2 higher level central midfielders (Sabitzer, Fred)
3 top tier wingers (Rashford, Antony, Sancho)
1 high level winger or quality young talent
3 top tier centrebacks (Varane, Martinez, someone else)
1 high level centreback (not any of our current ones)
2 top tier fullbacks (Shaw, maybe Dalot/Upgrade on him)
2 high level fullbacks (Dalot, Malacia)
1 WC keeper
1 decent backup
 
Barcelona 2008-9 didn’t have depth except for defence. They still went on to win a treble and I regard them as the best club football team since I started watching football.

Football now is totally different though. More demanding, more games, more pressure. Plus it’s the premier league. Most intense league in the world.
 
Depth that can cover multiple positions is the ideal really. A CB that can cover LB, a CM that can play CAM, DM and even RB ala Fletcher.

Means you have that cover but they also get to play a lot because there will be injuries throughout the season. I think Ten Hag also really likes players who can operate in multiple positions.
That's why I would keep Lindelof, seems versitile.
 
Yes, but being lucky with injuries to your best XI beats it. Leicester 15-16, Liverpool 19-20 and Arsenal this season are evidence of that.