I’m still backing Brazil to do well at the World Cup. I mean would this England team have any chance in beating Brazil in a competitive high-stakes game? We’re reading too much into their slump in form. As much as European football has diluted their footballing DNA, it’s still there and just needs to be unleashed more convincingly.
Does Brazil still hold its status among the modern generation of football fans?
- Thread starter Theonas
- Start date
Brazil might have the worst luck when it comes to promising talents just fizzling out. You look at France, England, Belgium, and some players have been around for years and have built with them.
The likes of Oscar and Lucas Moura were meant to dominate along with Coutinho and Neymar. Even though the last two were still pretty successful it’s crazy that all four are 32 but feels like they’ve been retired for a while. You have Pato also who is 35 but was cooked at 23.
Imagine a world where these players stayed fit and motivated, Brazil could have made some serious noise in the 2010s.
Brazil will always produce the best talents in my opinion but it seems a lot more is needed for these players to fulfil their potential. Maybe moving to Europe too early is working against some players.
The likes of Oscar and Lucas Moura were meant to dominate along with Coutinho and Neymar. Even though the last two were still pretty successful it’s crazy that all four are 32 but feels like they’ve been retired for a while. You have Pato also who is 35 but was cooked at 23.
Imagine a world where these players stayed fit and motivated, Brazil could have made some serious noise in the 2010s.
Brazil will always produce the best talents in my opinion but it seems a lot more is needed for these players to fulfil their potential. Maybe moving to Europe too early is working against some players.
Yes, actually, and I don’t even rate England that much (at least under Southgate, too early to tell with Carsley)
If you remove the nostalgia about Joga Bonito and just look objectively at players quality, England is better everywhere but left forward and GK. If the two sides play each other 10 times as they are now, most people would bet on England winning more often than not.
There's a an awful lot of Dutch players whom I genuinely love (Neeskens, Cruijff, Gullit, Van Basten, Rijkaard, Koeman, Bergkamp, Overmars, Stam, Davids, Seedorf, Kluivert or Robben, just to name a few).
I just can't stand them as a team, even if I enjoyed their win in 1988, mainly because of the Gullit, Rijkaard and Van Basten trio. Holland were a significant hurdle to clear throughout the 90's, but never a team you'd really think of as a tournament winner, at least to my eyes. Despite the talent, they always were an "almost" team, destined to fail when it mattered the most. Which they did.
I'll give you 92. 94 was either Brazil's or Italy's, 98 certainly leaves some room for discussion, although I personally had Brazil as clear winners. France were head and shoulders above anyone in 2000 and that's no up to debate.
I actually almost forgot that Holland were runner-ups at the 2010 WC. It would've indeed been a crime if they won it.
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They played recently and Brazil won
The question is competitive high stake game. I don't think a friendly counts, even if it was at Wembley.
Personally I think yes. Many are overlooking the romanticism of Brazil. It’s not only about the professional football team, it’s also about the countries attitude to football. You still see videos going around of random people looking like world beaters just kicking a ball around between friends.
They're just having a dry spell. It happens.
They've had two periods of success - '58-'70 and '94-02. It's no suprise those of us who were formative in the 90s have a thing about Brazil as it was Romario & Ronaldo, clips of Pele and that advert, which will have caused them to transcend football.
They went 24 years between '70 and '94 without winning the big cup. So they're about due now, and probably due another global superstar to follow Pele and Ronaldo, but it's nothing out of the ordinary.
They've had two periods of success - '58-'70 and '94-02. It's no suprise those of us who were formative in the 90s have a thing about Brazil as it was Romario & Ronaldo, clips of Pele and that advert, which will have caused them to transcend football.
They went 24 years between '70 and '94 without winning the big cup. So they're about due now, and probably due another global superstar to follow Pele and Ronaldo, but it's nothing out of the ordinary.
I used to think that Kaka could maybe drag them to another final back in 2007. But the next season - 2007-2008 - he got injured(iirc) and his speed was gone, his specialness disappeared. Also, no one was prepared for Pep's Barcelona and Spain incorporating the changes so fast.
Ronaldo, Rivaldo and Ronaldinho, Cafu, Roberto Carlos, Dida and Adriano were either retired from the team or in decline by then. (2007)
In 2010 WC they still had a bit of a threat, but in 2014 I had no illusions about Brazil, I expected them to crash early, really.
Nowadays I don't even know their national team, just some players, it's been many years since I stopped watching their games. Last I remember were some bits and pieces from the game against Croatia, many years ago?
Even Neymar, their last jewel hasn't been relevant since the UCL campaign when Bayern won in the final.
Only hope is to go the Argentina's way, Imo, but they miss a true talisman to build around, like Argentina did with Messi.
Ronaldo, Rivaldo and Ronaldinho, Cafu, Roberto Carlos, Dida and Adriano were either retired from the team or in decline by then. (2007)
In 2010 WC they still had a bit of a threat, but in 2014 I had no illusions about Brazil, I expected them to crash early, really.
Nowadays I don't even know their national team, just some players, it's been many years since I stopped watching their games. Last I remember were some bits and pieces from the game against Croatia, many years ago?
Even Neymar, their last jewel hasn't been relevant since the UCL campaign when Bayern won in the final.
Only hope is to go the Argentina's way, Imo, but they miss a true talisman to build around, like Argentina did with Messi.
I guess there’s two ways to look at this, one is that he had “bad luck”, the other is that he had incredible luck to play in one of the greatest club sides in history which elevated him.
As I say, for me it’s an absolute no brainer between Neymar and Ronaldinho as the last great Brazilian superstar. Neymar is but a side-note in Barca’s history, the likes of Zlatan left a much bigger impression on PSG also.
Saying that Neymar was lucky to play in Barcelona will imply that he was just a passenger there, but that's absolutely not true. He and Messi carried that team while he was there. In their biggest comeback game (that game against PSG), Neymar was by far the best player.
There's nothing wrong with preferring Ronaldinho and his style of play, and considering he was more of a joy to watch. Ronaldinho seemed more likeable than Neymar even for opposition fans. But objectively, I don't think he was better than Neymar in any aspect. He definitely wasn't as prolific as Neymar.
IMO, the 2002 Brazil team would have been just as good with peak Neymar and way better in 2006, and they wouldn't have done better with peak Ronaldinho in place of Neymar (especially given the fact that he wasn't as prolific).
Zlatan left a bigger impact in PSG because he was the first mega star they signed and he scored a lot, while Neymar had a lot of injury problems. However no one in their right mind thinks Zlatan was a better player, and they weren't as good in CL when Zlatan was leading the lines.
The only time they reached the final, Neymar was clearly their best player. During Zlatan's period, their best game was a victory in the return leg at Stamford bridge when the dominated Chelsea with 10 men after Zlatan got sent off early in the first half.
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Ganso was hyped up big time with Neymar too, was supposed to be his Riquelme. And then there is the Robinho, Diego, Elano generation. Serious ballers in their early 20s that sorta lost their way.
No-one implied he was just a passenger, nor was Raheem Sterling at City, but make no mistake, he was lucky to play there.
Now obviously Neymar was a much better player than Sterling, but of course he was lucky to play in such a great side. In a similar sense I’ve also argued Van Nistelrooy was extremely unlucky to play in such a shit Manchester United era, that’s just how the cookie crumbles.
And no mate, no one player “carried that Barca team” and nor did two players. This was a side where Suarez and Iniesta regularly outclassed Neymar, in the 2015 treble year it had Suarez in incredible form, it had prime Busquets, Alba and Dani Alves, but feck me, he had one great comeback game in 2017 (did feck all v Juve in the next round mind) and just when it looked like he may have been ready to take that final step up, he semi retired himself aged 25.
I’ll also add that Suarez, like Ronaldinho, did something Neymar never did, leaving and elevating a club like Atletico to a title after so almost doing similar with Liverpool. Nothing about Neymar’s career matches anything like that.
And yes, Brazil with peak Ronaldinho would always be a better team than with peak Neymar, no question. You’re massively underrating Ronaldinho’s best in the World by far, peak period.
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This is different; the first period of 24 years was more about footballing philosophy; right in the middle of it lays the most celebrated aesthetic side in history that coined joga bonito and had some of the most obscenely talented footballers we’ve ever seen. That is not the case now, there is nothing like that talent level just being optioned out because of footballing philosophy. A Zico-level talent would be the best player in the world; a Socrates would be a household name; a Toninho Cerezo would be competing with Rodri for best player in the position on the planet and we’d be debating where he stood in all-time regard; a Junior would be the best LB in the world, and so on and so forth. Most fallow periods for Brazil have been down to trying to copy European models and restriction of their then abundant talents’ sense of expression. Now, on the other hand, you’re dealing with an inferior pool of players and heaping extreme pressure on the few who are top bracket. Contrast that to times when Brazil had so much talent questions were asked of how well a B selection would do in a World Cup.
Brazil’s drop in quality has been spectacular. From generally having upwards of 6 players vying for or being the best in their position in the world to what we have now. This is compounded by poor coaching and tactical conformity that is quite easily breached by European counterparts now. In the past, teams could have an idea of what they were about to face and still come out of the contest dumbfounded and humiliated, with the Brazilians laughing and smiling whilst putting on an exhibition. Those times are long gone, and most likely won’t be coming back unless some way of imbuing the young talent with vision, belief, expression and technical brilliance is found. Nearly all of Brazils most technically brilliant players gone by were forged in fires that are no longer consistent resources anymore, which is why you’re not just going to get that back and especially not en masse.
I'll defer to your clear greater knowledge of Brazilian football but I think there is a little overhyping of the 1986 and 1990 teams, neither of which had players on the level of the Pele era or the Romario-Ronaldo era.
But taking what you say on face value, particularly re "Nearly all of Brazils most technically brilliant players gone by were forged in fires that are no longer consistent resources anymore, which is why you’re not just going to get that back and especially not en masse", why aren't you going to get that back? There is still a lot of poverty in Brazil so I can't believe the favela street footballer taps have been turned off.
Is it Europeans have caught up with better coaching? Is it Pep-ball strangling the life out of creatives? I agree that in the times of Ronaldinho, Denilson etc. there were a good amount of entertaining Brazilians. They can't just have disappeared?
Fun fact: Zico ended up trophyless with Brazil.
A Brazilian is one of the favourites to win the Ballon d'Or, another one played a key role in the Champions League winners attack, best player in a key game against Man City. Before he dropped off, Casemiro was top few CDMs in the world. Alisson is top few goalkeepers in the world. I think Brazil's strength in depth is still very strong.
In the last squad, they didn't have Eder Militao, Yan Couto, Bremer, Douglas Luiz, Casemiro, Savio, Raphinha, Martinelli, Richarlison, Gabriel Jesus, Neymar, David Neres for example. Some of them were injured or out for other reasons but that B team could challenge to win a tournament with the right set-up and manager, it's not like Spain were overwhelmingly good to win the Euros for example, they had a lot of players from Sociedad and Bilbao.
They're probably just short maybe one world-class attacking midfielder and full-back from being as good as ever. I think the level of coaching and tactics at Brazil has generally been poor for the last long while. It's a shame that Ancelotti didn't go to manage them for the next World Cup, because there's still enough to work with.
Checking Wiki and this is written for what I'd consider the last two icons of Jogo Bonito and the Brazilian classification of ball control and technical brilliance that is associative of true or real Brazilian swagger:
Ronaldinho: He developed an interest in futsal and beach football, which later expanded to organized football.[20] Many of his signature moves originate from futsal, especially his ball control.[21]
Neymar: Growing up, Neymar combined his love of futsal with street football.[22] Neymar said that futsal had a massive influence on him growing up, helping him develop his technique, speed of thought and ability to perform moves in tight spaces.[23]
It's painfully obvious, as you don't develop that level of ball mastery from generic development in isolation, but it is worth noting in here given the topic; remove such things from Brazilian development and they become just another nation, which is what we're seeing as the skill index plummets.
Ronaldinho: He developed an interest in futsal and beach football, which later expanded to organized football.[20] Many of his signature moves originate from futsal, especially his ball control.[21]
Neymar: Growing up, Neymar combined his love of futsal with street football.[22] Neymar said that futsal had a massive influence on him growing up, helping him develop his technique, speed of thought and ability to perform moves in tight spaces.[23]
It's painfully obvious, as you don't develop that level of ball mastery from generic development in isolation, but it is worth noting in here given the topic; remove such things from Brazilian development and they become just another nation, which is what we're seeing as the skill index plummets.
Back in the 80s, with the team of Zico and Socrates still fresh in our collective memory, those of us in the UK (and I guess the rest of Europe) only got to see Brazilians play at World Cups or occassionally the game between the European Cup Champions and the South American equivalents (which was always on late at night). They had almost mythical status because we rarely ever saw them play or read about them in the papers. And the team back then had four defenders, a defensive midfielder (of sorts) and five attacking players - an absolute joy to watch. Move on to the 90s and Brazilian players moved over to Italy, became more common on our TVs , and the Brazilian players that we began to see, possibly due to the focus of defense in Italy, were players like Gilberto, Dunga, Adair, Mauro Silva. For every Ronaldo, Kaka, Juninho and Ronladhino we've had many less 'memorable' players on our televisions perhaps leading to acceptance rather than the excitement the thought of watching a Brzilian used to bring. Brazilian goalkeepers and defenders are now sought after - something that wouldn't have been the case back then.
I believe, globally, there’s a decline in street football, pick-up games and that kind of off the cuff vagabond spirit. In the past, stories of kids all over the world who were obsessed with football would be sprinkled with tales of waking up with a football, honing technique against walls, in parks/streets/beaches <insert what is appropriate per region> to extraordinary levels. Familiarising oneself with one’s own capabilities and being self-driven enough to go out the next day, and the next, and the next playing in unpredictable environments against unpredictable opponents and constantly finding solutions. Stories of a Best or Charlton, even on this side of the world, perfecting technique, alone obsessively for hours on end; for all the talk of joy and free spirit, when broken down to raw training, what Brazilians used to do in their droves for hours and hours and hours on end, whilst having fun, is bound to create unparalleled levels of technique, and doing it on beaches, on sand too, that’s creating a central core and levels of balance and adaptation that makes a consistent grass surface a cakewalk to traverse.
I think the link between the likes of futsal and impeccable, transferable technique has been discussed on here before, but all these methods that gave Brazilians that famed panache are fading or being replaced with generic academic development and that comes with its own problems, particularly in terms of perception of the game and problem solving; all those aforementioned pickup hours replete with endless amounts of unpredictability forge a different kind of player, in my opinion, and what we used to see, and what gave Brazilians that awe-inspiring ability, was their ability to make generic academic learning look wooden, stiff and easily compromised i.e. humiliating and embarrassing wooden opponents - I don’t think that’s unique to Brazilians - you’ll find links with many insanely talented individuals and the wits and guile streetball or futsal gave them - the marrying of their technical advantages and playing systems that allowed them to display their superiority is what gave Brazil their edge. By the time you put that honed ability to a cultured style of play, it used to be very, very difficult for opponents to stop.
Fast forward to now and the kids are not forged in those fires and no longer have a clear technical advantage over their peers (the last real magician Brazil produced is Neymar, I think many old ways are fading around the world and what gave us those great technicians won’t be returning; it isn’t just about poverty; plenty of areas around the world have had that ‘play from dusk til dawn’ spirit erased or eroded and Brazil have to be far from immune from that.
Europe never had better coaching, but they had their own coaching methods bespoke to their players, technical levels, characteristics and physical capabilities, just as Brazil used to (and Argentina still does to a greater extent), and it was about harmonising their players traits and abilities with tactics and systems that got the best out of them without curtailing expression. The attempts to conform to football styles that have little to do with their playing origins is mostly going to be ruinous. Think of it in reverse; getting an England, Germany, Italy or Spain to be as wildly exuberant as the defined versions of jogo bonito. It would be equally daft and working away from the core strength of those nations. As I said in a previous post, the only way that kind of thing can work is by Brazil mimicking Europe to the wire, from childhood straight through, which should go against everything Brazil have been known to stand for until the 2010’s when they’ve really lost their way to the point threads like this can be created.
Grains of sand on a beach compared to what was commonly expected of Brazil in the past.
Not even you believe the bolded, or at least I hope you don’t.
Well let's say we add a world-class full-back and world-class attacking midfielder to the mix:
Alisson
Yan Couto - Marquinhos - Gabriel - Roberto Carlos
Bruno Guimaraes - Lucas Paqueta - Socrates
Neymar - Rodrygo - Vini
Likes of Raphinha, Bremer, Savio, Martinelli, Luiz etc on the bench. That team could win the 2026 World Cup with a competent manager, no doubt.
That's an unfair take. Regardless of its veracity, Brazil got football'd in that game. They could, should have won by 3 or 4 goals. It's not like they played badly, the croatian gk turned into Courtois...
Even Croatia's goal wasn't some baffling defensive lapse or anything in the end. A deflected shot from outside the box. Football gods just wanted them to lose, not much you can do when it happens
Also, what's this talk about Italy? If you are under 25 years old you have seen Italy win the WC and the Euros
Do you want to make an ‘as good as ever Brazil xi’ now and contrast it to that [underwhelming] team?
Well 1994 Brazil won the World Cup with average enough players starting like Mazinho, Zinho, Marcio Santos etc. To compare to the 1994 team for example Alisson is a better keeper, only Aldair is as good as Marquinhos, you'd take Vini, Rodrygo and Raphinha over their wide players. I'd take Neymar over Bebeto. Romario you wouldn't change, but then they have Vinicius who is also supposed to be the best player in the world... the only area that's significantly weaker is centre midfield as Dunga and Mauro Silva are stronger than anything they have there. Casemiro 2 years ago was their equal but they haven't anyone that level since he declined.
You said as good as ever and are now referencing their 4th or 5th worst World Cup winners. Neymar is also a shell of himself now, not as good as Bebeto in the form of his life.
The team you put up is underwhelming, more the point, lowest ebb brazil and not the kind of team Brazil used to be revered for having.
The “modern” generation of fans are so much more superficial than previous generations. They are more likely to “consume” football in short snippets rather than whole matches. Little appreciation for tactics. Younger fans are more likely to follow individual players than teams. It’s really sad. They watch huge amounts of their football through YouTube highlights and have very reactionary, knee jerk and definitive reactions to individual moments.
Growing up, I watched Argentina go 36 years without winning a World Cup. They won in ‘86 when I was still as young kid, and then aside from one final appearance in 2014, did feck all for over three decades. Yet I was still able to appreciate them as an exciting footballing nation based on their rich history and football culture. Unfortunately today, people only focus on the here and now.
Brazil is down, but they are far from out. They had an absurdly gifted generation with Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, and Rivaldo, but since then the only truly world class, legendary level players they’ve produced are Kaka, Alves, and Neymar. Neymar really threw a big chunk of his career away by going to PSG.
Coaching in Brazil has taken a massive nosedive. Individual expression has been coached away and it hasn’t been replaced with innovative tactics or cutting edge coaching. But there’s a lot of reform going on behind the scenes from what I understand. Their culture, passion and talent pool remains absurdly good and it would take a brave person to write them off for long. Vinicius and Rodrygo are huge talents at the biggest club in the world. Endrick has the makings of one. Estevao is supposed to be very special.
My bet is that Brazil will find its way back to the top at some point. I am also sure that I couldn’t give a monkey’s fart what resonates with the “modern” fan, because in general they are about as appealing and discerning as herpes.
My step-son was born, raised and has always lived in the US. His parents are Mexican (born in Mexico). On his fathers side his grandmother is Italian and his grandfather Argentinian. He speaks less Spanish than I do. Growing up he at first supported USA, to fit in at school, then switched to supporting Mexico to be in sync with his family. When Messi came around he declared himself Argentinian through and through, because of his 1/4 heritage (he’s never even been to Argentina) and even supported them against Mexico and his entire family. After Italy beat England on penalties in the Euro 2020(1) final, his call was the first I received, as he was celebrating due to being Italian (another 1/4). This despite him not being able to name more than two players on the whole Italian team and knowing absolutely nothing about Italy, or their football history. Then he was back to being Argentinian for the last World Cup. He had a Barca shirt with Messi on it, which then became a PSG shirt with Messi on it. Now he’s Inter Miami’s “biggest fan”.
Sounds really fecked up, but his relationship with football is fairly representative of a large percentage of people from his generation (he’s 21 now). I’ve met so many young fans that follow players and teams in the same way. Transiently, without any actual stakes or true loyalties. They certainly don’t stick it out through the hard times. If their favourite player tanks, they find a new one.. it’s painful stuff. I think Florentino Perez mentioned this when he was ridiculed for saying something about making games much shorter to capture the attention of the YouTube generation. Mental idea, but he wasn’t wrong as to the phenomenon and scale of the problem.
If Brazil can produce just one world class player, who absolutely tears it up at club level and internationally. Their own Messi or Cristiano, they’ll be fine in terms of garnering eyeballs and interest from modern fans. But to be honest, they face the problem that all teams face now, club or international….young fans have no loyalties, patience or attention span. They’re idiots who are just passing through. For example, in the three days after Ronaldo left Juventus, they lost over 300,000 followers on social media. In three days! Three hundred thousand people who were no longer “fans” of the club because one player left. Likewise they gained 6m new fans after he joined. Again, fans needs to be written as “fans”.
Brazil don’t even need to become good again to become relevant with modern fans, they just need to produce a megastar. It’s 2% football, 98% marketing, whereas for those of us born south of about 1990/1995, it’s mostly the other way around.
Growing up, I watched Argentina go 36 years without winning a World Cup. They won in ‘86 when I was still as young kid, and then aside from one final appearance in 2014, did feck all for over three decades. Yet I was still able to appreciate them as an exciting footballing nation based on their rich history and football culture. Unfortunately today, people only focus on the here and now.
Brazil is down, but they are far from out. They had an absurdly gifted generation with Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, and Rivaldo, but since then the only truly world class, legendary level players they’ve produced are Kaka, Alves, and Neymar. Neymar really threw a big chunk of his career away by going to PSG.
Coaching in Brazil has taken a massive nosedive. Individual expression has been coached away and it hasn’t been replaced with innovative tactics or cutting edge coaching. But there’s a lot of reform going on behind the scenes from what I understand. Their culture, passion and talent pool remains absurdly good and it would take a brave person to write them off for long. Vinicius and Rodrygo are huge talents at the biggest club in the world. Endrick has the makings of one. Estevao is supposed to be very special.
My bet is that Brazil will find its way back to the top at some point. I am also sure that I couldn’t give a monkey’s fart what resonates with the “modern” fan, because in general they are about as appealing and discerning as herpes.
My step-son was born, raised and has always lived in the US. His parents are Mexican (born in Mexico). On his fathers side his grandmother is Italian and his grandfather Argentinian. He speaks less Spanish than I do. Growing up he at first supported USA, to fit in at school, then switched to supporting Mexico to be in sync with his family. When Messi came around he declared himself Argentinian through and through, because of his 1/4 heritage (he’s never even been to Argentina) and even supported them against Mexico and his entire family. After Italy beat England on penalties in the Euro 2020(1) final, his call was the first I received, as he was celebrating due to being Italian (another 1/4). This despite him not being able to name more than two players on the whole Italian team and knowing absolutely nothing about Italy, or their football history. Then he was back to being Argentinian for the last World Cup. He had a Barca shirt with Messi on it, which then became a PSG shirt with Messi on it. Now he’s Inter Miami’s “biggest fan”.
Sounds really fecked up, but his relationship with football is fairly representative of a large percentage of people from his generation (he’s 21 now). I’ve met so many young fans that follow players and teams in the same way. Transiently, without any actual stakes or true loyalties. They certainly don’t stick it out through the hard times. If their favourite player tanks, they find a new one.. it’s painful stuff. I think Florentino Perez mentioned this when he was ridiculed for saying something about making games much shorter to capture the attention of the YouTube generation. Mental idea, but he wasn’t wrong as to the phenomenon and scale of the problem.
If Brazil can produce just one world class player, who absolutely tears it up at club level and internationally. Their own Messi or Cristiano, they’ll be fine in terms of garnering eyeballs and interest from modern fans. But to be honest, they face the problem that all teams face now, club or international….young fans have no loyalties, patience or attention span. They’re idiots who are just passing through. For example, in the three days after Ronaldo left Juventus, they lost over 300,000 followers on social media. In three days! Three hundred thousand people who were no longer “fans” of the club because one player left. Likewise they gained 6m new fans after he joined. Again, fans needs to be written as “fans”.
Brazil don’t even need to become good again to become relevant with modern fans, they just need to produce a megastar. It’s 2% football, 98% marketing, whereas for those of us born south of about 1990/1995, it’s mostly the other way around.
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You’re focusing on ‘As good as ever’ which wasn’t meant as a literal phrase, just that something isn’t in that bad a shape. Like in my dialect at least, someone might ask you ‘how are you?’ and you say ‘fine, as good as ever’, they wouldn’t start questioning ‘even better than your wedding day?’ etc, it’s just meant to mean you’re doing fine. No it’s not the best Brazil team ever obviously.
We don’t know with Neymar because he’s been injured for a long time. He was great in the WC, then he missed the CL because he was injured, then missed his first season in Saudi through injury. That could ruin him but we don’t know.
It is not the lowest ebb Brazil, I disagree, they didn’t have the expected Ballon d’Or winner plenty of times and a whole forward line of Barca and Real Madrid players. In even recent history compare that to Fred and friends in 2014. By the time of 2026 you will have Vini and Rodrigo at their peak, Endrick and Estevao look world class talents.
That's an unfair take. Regardless of its veracity, Brazil got football'd in that game. They could, should have won by 3 or 4 goals. It's not like they played badly, the croatian gk turned into Courtois...
Even Croatia's goal wasn't some baffling defensive lapse or anything in the end. A deflected shot from outside the box. Football gods just wanted them to lose, not much you can do when it happens
Also, what's this talk about Italy? If you are under 25 years old you have seen Italy win the WC and the Euros
Maybe it was just the dancing annoying me
but I do think they played a carelessly arrogant game against Croatia.Mazinho was great imo. A very technical, hard working all-rounder that was still a top deep-lying playmaker after he slowed down. It's hard to compare the wide players as that team had a more traditional front two and got its width from full/wingbacks like Jorginho, Branco and Leonardo, the first two in particular being very highly rated in their day. Cafu never really got into the team as a RB until Jorginho retired. I think that squad could have been more joga bonito, but Perreira wasn't that sort of manager and didn't take big emerging talents like Edmundo, Rivaldo, Djalminha as direct backup for Rai, who was meant to be the 10, but was in terrible form and ended up benched.
I agree Brazil are still not far from being a WC winning team.
Maybe so but it should still have been enough if not for that famed SAF quote about football and bloody hellsMaybe it was just the dancing annoying me
Wasn't it a conscious decision on their behalf to make their football more "continental" after the 1982 and 1986 heartbreaks? I have clear memories of every WC from 1990 onward, and Joga Bonito, even for my generation, was a legendary tale told by our fathers more than a reality on the pitch. Brazil's status was confirmed in my eyes by having won more WCs than others and by the sheer amount of neutrals, among older generations, who rooted for them. Even during their good run (1994-2002), they looked very mundane. I still remember my dad saying that these sides, despite their success, couldn't hold a candle to their 80s ones. When you trade identity for success, you depend on results. And when you haven't won a big game in the WC since 2002, it's going to affect your status eventually.
Yeah, 1990 was the turning point tactically. The difference between the 1990-2002 era and more recent teams isn't tactical (they were already safety first, pragmatic minded) it's just that those teams still had a lot of joga bonito individual virtuoso players around that provided a better mix of styles/ability alongside the workhorses and tactically responsible versatile players that the managers started favouring more. For whatever reason, they've stopped producing the same amount of high level creative attacking players.
Hype among kids very much still there with the latest crop of very young, truly exciting prospects!
I think the journey after the 1980s is correct. 1994 and 2002 were good examples of them prioritising control in their choice of tactics and personnel. That said inbetween those wins, from 1995 to 2000, Brazil guaranteed goals - and the football was often sensational. It felt mainly about two centre-halves and two central midfielders holding the forte while everyone else ran amock.
Fair enough, i can understand that point. Although, for the most part, we're talking about a specific type of footballer who's neither a creator nor a goalscorer in a strict sense. They are players who can get on the ball and unbalance defences with their skills and trickery. I guess it goes back to the 1970 Brazil side with the four "10s" and the legacy it left behind. It may be the greatest national team to ever play in a World Cup, but legacies can be a big burden to carry, too. Such players, like Neymar and Ronaldinho, are very special, yet there's an expectation among football fans that one country should always be able to field more than a few every four years. I believe they have always been able to either fit or shoehorn two or three such players in their NT. Sometimes, it doesn't work because the "supporting cast" has glaring weaknesses. In some others, the competition happens to be better overall. Last, but not least, these players can often do what they do at club level because their managers do a lot of "accommodating" which isn't always a given (still remember LvG crying out to the press about Rivaldo: "What is his position? You tell me, and i'll play him there") and which their NT coaches simply can't replicate for a number of reasons.
I agree, their 1998 side under Zagallo, who was trying to fit Ronaldo, Bebeto, Leonardo and Rivaldo with Roberto Carlos and Cafu also bombing forward from the flanks was fun to watch. Naive at times, but entertaining. And to think that some journos back at home were criticizing him for not giving minutes to Denilson! And right before and after France '98, they won two Copa América titles, mostly by demolishing the opposition. Peak Ronaldo was something else up front. I can't check it right now, but i think the same thing happened in the Copa América tournaments before and after the 2006 World Cup. Still, in both these World Cup games, when France opened the score, you could sense it was game over.
Just these last few years they have been bad ..
They still had Vini, Neymar, Marcelo, Thiago, Alves, Casemiro , Fred (
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They still had Vini, Neymar, Marcelo, Thiago, Alves, Casemiro , Fred (
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