They no longer produce world class attacking midfielders and fullbacks. And it shows in their playing style that is heavily dependent on their attackers producing some sort of magic.
Does Brazil still hold its status among the modern generation of football fans?
- Thread starter Theonas
- Start date
I think we have two distinct debates.
The first is whether Brazil's national team is still competitive and can win a World Cup. It seems clear to me that the answer is yes. They have good players in the big European clubs and generally do well in World Cups.
The second is whether Brazilian football still provokes that charm and fascination of the past. The so-called jogo bonito. I think it still does, but to a lesser extent, because it has fewer superstars. Vini Jr and Neymar are the latest examples. They are skilful players with great ball control and a repertoire of dribbles. But they are few in quantity, Brazil used to have more players in the past and in a more prominent position. For some time now, Brazil has had few players that combine magic and high performance.
I think Brazilian football suffers from a lot of disorganisation. I read that the country has lost three football federation presidents to corruption in recent years and that there have been betting scandals in the local league. Local coaches are accused of being bad, with inadequate training methods. So the environment seems to harm the development of new superstars. English football has also suffered from some of these problems in the past.
The first is whether Brazil's national team is still competitive and can win a World Cup. It seems clear to me that the answer is yes. They have good players in the big European clubs and generally do well in World Cups.
The second is whether Brazilian football still provokes that charm and fascination of the past. The so-called jogo bonito. I think it still does, but to a lesser extent, because it has fewer superstars. Vini Jr and Neymar are the latest examples. They are skilful players with great ball control and a repertoire of dribbles. But they are few in quantity, Brazil used to have more players in the past and in a more prominent position. For some time now, Brazil has had few players that combine magic and high performance.
I think Brazilian football suffers from a lot of disorganisation. I read that the country has lost three football federation presidents to corruption in recent years and that there have been betting scandals in the local league. Local coaches are accused of being bad, with inadequate training methods. So the environment seems to harm the development of new superstars. English football has also suffered from some of these problems in the past.
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Autocorrect is the bane of my existence.
Damn that 7:1 was fun.
They are not.
They can somewhat blow smoke in the Copa America but on a worldwide level, they haven't been at the races since 2006, and even that is a stretch. They've been steadily declining since 2002.
In comparison to what Brazil were and the fear they instilled into their opponents, they are light-years away. Their joga bonito (with purpose) is gone as well.
It does not. Brazil have been living off their reputation for almost 20 years and that's now gone. Their last true superstar was Ronaldinho. Kaká was destroyed by injuries. Neymar, let alone Vinicius, are miles off of what we understand as Brazilian superstars.
They will bounce off at some point, their breeding ground is simply too big for them to stay in the dark for a long period of time, but right now, they aren't a threat at all and a pale shadow of what of they once were.
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Completely disagree about Neymar. He was the last great Brazilian superstar and is beloved by them as well. He was also far better than Kaka and Dinho ever were in the national team.
Just because he’s a crock and went to PSG in his prime doesn’t take away from that.
They aren't very good these days, but in spite of that I will still say there is no national team I look forward to watching more than Brazil when a tournament comes around, due to my attachment to what they used to be
But yeah the general sentiment is now that Brazil is hardly “fun to watch” these days. Vini would be my favorite to win the Ballon D’or but he plays far more like a direct English winger than a Brazilian one (if that makes sense), and the setup around him and that team is largely a grafting group
Ironically the most fun team to watch on the International stage right now is Spain, who 10 years ago were winning everything but largely bored you to death.
Neymar's one of Brazil's greatest "what ifs" alongside Djalminha or Adriano. You could even add Romário, whom I absolutely loved, although he still shone at the 1994 WC.
He made the worst career choices, won jack shit with Brazil and was nowhere as influential as Dinho at the WC. Kaká's injuries prevented him to have the career he deserved. Neymar's one of the most glaring indicators of how meaningless stats are.
For all his talent and he had it in spades, Neymar's the symbol of Brazil's constant decline. An all talk and no bark showboating diver.
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He has far worse teams than Dinho had, and is Brazils all time top scorer. But your last sentence just tells me you hate Neymar so I’m not debating any more. Pointless
Having him in the same conversation as Djalminha and Adriano is hilariously ignorant or maybe just biased I’m not sure
No? I'm just disappointed with how his so much promising career turned out to be. And he factually is a diving showboater.
Both of them put in this current era in Neymar's teams would've had as much success, in my opinion. You just don't appreciate how gifted these two were.
There's a thread somewhere on here where @JPRouve and myself investigated this topic at length and found that Lazaroni is entirely to blame. At least I think that's where we landed.
I was in a pub in Dublin surrounded by Brazilian fans. It was insane. A few were in tears while their team was being ripped apart.
Id say if you're around 30, your first world cup you probably remember (at least with me) is 02 and that Brazil team with Rivaldo, R9, Ronaldinho etc. I then grew up on Kaka as my favourite player. So the nostalgia of that team is real. Also at that time we were blessed with things like Adriano on PES etc.
If you're around 21 and under it probably doesn't hit as much. Your memories of Brazil are Neymar and the 7-1 crushing by Germany.
If you're around 21 and under it probably doesn't hit as much. Your memories of Brazil are Neymar and the 7-1 crushing by Germany.
I always thought Neymar was the last great player to invoke old Brazil football culture because he played 225 games before moving to Europe. Vast majority of talented young Brazilians play less than 100 now before they're taken to Europe and trained in European methods.
Far too harsh, he scored one of the great World Cup goals in the quarters against Croatia at the last one, but then his team's defence shat a brick and conceded to Croatia and then missed two penalties. At the 2014 World Cup, he was top quality and then got injured and missed the 7-1. The only big World Cup game you could say he let his team down for is Belgium quarters in 2018. And they're crap without him.
I'd say Neymar was probably as good as Ronaldinho at the World Cup, it's just that Ronaldo had Ronaldo and Rivaldo with him.
He’s played absolutely miles more games than any other striker for Brazil.
Ronaldinho was absolutely miles better.
If I'm not mistaken the trend of not playing as much street football and futsal is also true for Brazil and Brazil old identity relied a lot on that street football culture, the technical and mental abilities to be extremely creative. I made the remark a few months ago but current Footballers are embarassing from a technical standpoint compared to their elders with the exception of players coming from the spanish system and even then it's not as good as their predecessors.
I don't know if there is a way to fix it but as long as dribbling and first touches are at the current level, we won't see any Joga Bonito. Just kick and rush and a lot of missed touches.
I don't know if there is a way to fix it but as long as dribbling and first touches are at the current level, we won't see any Joga Bonito. Just kick and rush and a lot of missed touches.
Played 30 more games for Brazil than Dinho, and in that time scored 46 more goals and assisted 30 more as well.
But sure Dinho was miles better. I swear the Neymar discourse on this board might be the most braindead of anything which is saying something. Even though you have countless videos of him obliterating the best teams in the world, people still just say “dive merchant crybaby farmers league”.
To me… Brazil both benefited and suffered through the Scolari era.
Yes they won a World Cup, but (to the non Brazilian eye) he seemed to usher in an era of European pragmatism that Brazil didn’t recover from.
They historically produced a mix of outrageously talented attacking players, and hard as fecking nails defensive players. Some of the latter had ball playing talent. But regardless, they always had an abundance of attacking talent, and solid defensive ability.
Scolari onwards, seemed to decide that they needed to control games, as some European teams sought success in that space.
In reality… the pendulum swung too far in that direction, for too long.
Now they seemed to produce players akin to the late 2000’s/early 2010’s African bloom. Strong, powerful and technical players that play centrally. In just a 10-15 year window, the Brazilian football ecosystem seemed to produce saleable assets at volume, rather than exceptionalism. Almost as if the kind of player that global football would buy, got pushed to the front of the queue, at the expense of their best talent.
They seemed to start marching to the beat of world Football, rather than dictate it. You almost feel like they could have cultivated a bunch of Trent’s as he’s just a poor man’s Cafu with a better pass on him. ie a failed winger that has an engine. Or loads of John Stones’ as he’s Lucio without the presence. But at the exact time that the global game started moving one way, they were a decade late in trying. And now that the game has changed again - and would love loads of players that they routinely produced I. Decades gone by - they’ve already started producing gritty footballers instead of risk taking, ball advancing footballers.
It’s really weird.
Yes they won a World Cup, but (to the non Brazilian eye) he seemed to usher in an era of European pragmatism that Brazil didn’t recover from.
They historically produced a mix of outrageously talented attacking players, and hard as fecking nails defensive players. Some of the latter had ball playing talent. But regardless, they always had an abundance of attacking talent, and solid defensive ability.
Scolari onwards, seemed to decide that they needed to control games, as some European teams sought success in that space.
In reality… the pendulum swung too far in that direction, for too long.
Now they seemed to produce players akin to the late 2000’s/early 2010’s African bloom. Strong, powerful and technical players that play centrally. In just a 10-15 year window, the Brazilian football ecosystem seemed to produce saleable assets at volume, rather than exceptionalism. Almost as if the kind of player that global football would buy, got pushed to the front of the queue, at the expense of their best talent.
They seemed to start marching to the beat of world Football, rather than dictate it. You almost feel like they could have cultivated a bunch of Trent’s as he’s just a poor man’s Cafu with a better pass on him. ie a failed winger that has an engine. Or loads of John Stones’ as he’s Lucio without the presence. But at the exact time that the global game started moving one way, they were a decade late in trying. And now that the game has changed again - and would love loads of players that they routinely produced I. Decades gone by - they’ve already started producing gritty footballers instead of risk taking, ball advancing footballers.
It’s really weird.
Their status and standing on the global stage will remain intact for decades even if they continue on a downward trajectory. The Dutch and Italians are a great example of teams who've been wildly inconsistent in the last 2 decades and every tournament they do make it to they are seen as favourites or talked up like it is still the 70's or 90's. Football stereotypes live forever. People still talk about Serie A and use phrases like "slower play" or "defensive league" when that hasn't been the case for awhile. Brazil we always be Joga Bonito or Samba Football for years to come.
Brazil and national football isn’t the crème de la crème though, and the 2002 WC and following peak Barca years where Ronaldinho changed their entire history in a similar fashion to Cantona with us far surpasses anything Neymar has achieved in the game.
Shame with Neymar that he picked such fecking terrible moves post Barca.
Braindead is not understanding that a mere 123 games in one of the World’s top leagues massively diminishes his standing. It would’ve done for Ronaldinho too mind had it not been for a WC and for taking Barca from 6 years without a title back to the top of World football. He changed their entire destiny.
Despite joining a rather shit Barca side at the time, in La Liga Ronaldinho simply massively outshone Neymar who joined one of the best club sides we’ve ever seen.
I mean, in Neymar’s best La Liga season (40 goals/assists, a goal/assist every 76 mins), which was brilliant, his side was so dominant they scored 112 goals & conceded just 29, GD +83.
Ronaldinho in his best (35 goals/assists, a goal/assist every 72 mins) had a side scoring just 80 and conceding 35, GD +45.
Neymar came in to a ridiculously well oiled dominat machine, played second fiddle to Messi and often to Suarez (who had 58 goals/assists in Neymar’s best season, leaving Neymar outshone by both he and Messi during his best La Liga season), then left after just three seasons for semi retirement.
Ronaldinho, well, he was just a much better player, changed the entire destiny of a super club as their number one player and catalyst & woke up a sleeping giant. Add moments like the standing ovation at Bernabeu and it’s not hard to understand why so many rate him so much higher.
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Dinho had the Magic. That glimpse of the soul of football that only certain players have. I've seen it in fleeting glimpses in many players but he was the embodiment. Like some kind of football demi-god, spawn of Zeus.
Has there been much socioeconomic change in Brazil in the last 2 decades which might have contributed to this, or is it more that the parameters of change are entirely within football and Brazil has been left behind?
Neymar got some bad timing though, he was brilliant at Barca and even peak Ronaldinho would have been second fiddle to Messi, Messi was that good. WhoScored have been doing match ratings and stats since 2010 and Neymar’s stats and ratings at the end of Barca and start of PSG were off the charts good, again only Messi is ahead of him there, he’s well ahead of the next when fit, even Cristiano Ronaldo for average match performance.
But unfortunately he missed half of PSG’s games through injury, and those injuries also tended to happen in February at the time of the season that mattered. Professionalism might have been an issue though, mysteriously getting to Carneval etc and from what I read and heard, PSG was a shambles off the pitch with no discipline. So he might not have been in the best shape, leading to a higher risk of injury. As I said earlier about World Cups, he scored that brilliant forgotten goal against Croatia and his team let him down, and got injured in 2014. Neither were his fault. That’s how it goes sometimes.
Sad decline from my childhood, no tournament seems the same without their influence.
That said things change quickly, they are never a bad team, they just miss the superstars of old. They spring on a new glut of talent.
Or maybe it's Peps influence on the game, he's killed the entertainers!
That said things change quickly, they are never a bad team, they just miss the superstars of old. They spring on a new glut of talent.
Or maybe it's Peps influence on the game, he's killed the entertainers!
They started towards a more European style already by the 1990 World Cup...Lazaroni, Zagallo, Carlos Alberto Parreira, Scolari all had pragmatic, systemic ways of playing that emphasised three-lung grafters and athletes more than risky, creative attacking football. It's just that in the 90s and early 00s they still had many great creative attacking players and virtuoso forwards, so we got to see a lot of great plays anyway, but those teams were built around being really solid defensively and hard working in midfield. They played in a tactical manner that was well aware of European trends and capable of easily adopting them, regardless of it being a good idea long term or not, they did win two world cups doing it.
Looking back at their performances since 2002...
2006: They appointed an old past it Carlos Alberto Parreira again. He seemed to go against his own ethos this time by adopting the attacking galactico approach, maybe because of the domestic criticism of his 94 team's playing style. Fill the team with all the big name veterans/current stars and play quite an open, quick attacking game. Started off well enough, impressive qualifying performances, then the older/past-prime players like Roberto Carlos, Cafu, Ze Roberto and Ronaldo ran out of steam, couldn't compete with France physically over 90 minutes and the younger attacking stars (Ronaldinho, Kaka) couldn't get into the game enough. A failure on multiple levels, from squad selection, tactics, to individuals.
2010: Boring but effective Dunga Euro-ball and the beginning of having less talented squads. They were in tactical control of the game, looked the better side against the Dutch butchers, but threw it away with a terrible keeping error to concede the equaliser. Crumbled under the pressure when Netherlands took the lead, with Felipe Melo getting sent off a few minutes later for stomping on Robben. Very avoidable loss that has to be pinned on the players composure levels.
2014: A washed up Scolari failed to come up with anything interesting tactically to get the best out of his squad. A number of players clearly struggled under the extra host pressure and gave some really bad individual performances notably below their usual level (which for some wasn't great in the first place).
2018: Don't think Tite did much wrong tactically here; his team were similarly workmanlike to France, yet seemed to be comfortable and picking up real momentum. They were in control tactically for most of the Belgium game, but Casemiro missing the game allowed jonah Fernandinho to kill the team with a terrible (and clumsily unlucky) individual performance for the second tournament in a row. Like 2010, this was an avoidable loss, and a tournament Brazil could have easily gone to the final in.
2022: Overconfident, undisciplined idiots. Tite has to take a large amount of blame too for not reigning his team in.
There's really not many performances in there that would give anyone around 20 years of age any sense of mystique or unique tradition beyond the other big teams.
Looking back at their performances since 2002...
2006: They appointed an old past it Carlos Alberto Parreira again. He seemed to go against his own ethos this time by adopting the attacking galactico approach, maybe because of the domestic criticism of his 94 team's playing style. Fill the team with all the big name veterans/current stars and play quite an open, quick attacking game. Started off well enough, impressive qualifying performances, then the older/past-prime players like Roberto Carlos, Cafu, Ze Roberto and Ronaldo ran out of steam, couldn't compete with France physically over 90 minutes and the younger attacking stars (Ronaldinho, Kaka) couldn't get into the game enough. A failure on multiple levels, from squad selection, tactics, to individuals.
2010: Boring but effective Dunga Euro-ball and the beginning of having less talented squads. They were in tactical control of the game, looked the better side against the Dutch butchers, but threw it away with a terrible keeping error to concede the equaliser. Crumbled under the pressure when Netherlands took the lead, with Felipe Melo getting sent off a few minutes later for stomping on Robben. Very avoidable loss that has to be pinned on the players composure levels.
2014: A washed up Scolari failed to come up with anything interesting tactically to get the best out of his squad. A number of players clearly struggled under the extra host pressure and gave some really bad individual performances notably below their usual level (which for some wasn't great in the first place).
2018: Don't think Tite did much wrong tactically here; his team were similarly workmanlike to France, yet seemed to be comfortable and picking up real momentum. They were in control tactically for most of the Belgium game, but Casemiro missing the game allowed jonah Fernandinho to kill the team with a terrible (and clumsily unlucky) individual performance for the second tournament in a row. Like 2010, this was an avoidable loss, and a tournament Brazil could have easily gone to the final in.
2022: Overconfident, undisciplined idiots. Tite has to take a large amount of blame too for not reigning his team in.
There's really not many performances in there that would give anyone around 20 years of age any sense of mystique or unique tradition beyond the other big teams.
A blind 3 legged dog would be better than Kleberson, says it all really about Anderson.
The dog would seal dribble around Anderson, might a while considering Anderson packed on weight...
In 2006, I think it's difficult to leave big names out of the team and that goes for any manager, he didn't even play Adriano or Robinho against France, they were very top heavy. And like Argentina in the following 10 years, sometimes that brings more problems than it's worth. Also easy to say in hindsight to leave out of past-it Ronaldo for example when he was the king of the World Cup and just scored against Ghana. Imagine he left out Ronaldo and they lost, would never had let that down at the time. That was also a really good French team and one of Zidane's greatest ever performances. They failed as favourites but there was no great shame of losing to them.
2022, the tactics were shocking by Tite against Croatia. Playing with Casemiro-Paqueta midfield 2 against Croatia's midfield which was one of the best in the world. Completely playing into Croatia's strengths. Still though, they were a few minutes from winning, required the Croatia keeper to have unreal saves and lost on penalties.
The Dutch have achieved the square root of feck all aside from their Euros win in 1988. Their best shot at the WC was in 1974 and 1978, and they never have been real challengers ever since. Long may it continue, because knowing their unbearable arrogance, we'd never hear the end of it.
However Italy, although wildly inconsistent in the last 15 years, are a whole other story and remain a team to be feared if they reach any given tournament. There's no easy win against them, and they still have an emphasis on an ironclad defense even if if it has nothing to do a typical 80's or 90's one.
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They had that aura about them as if they played football differently than any other teams that was such a joy to watch. With football becoming more structured, they also adapted to that. Resulting in fewer number of street style footballers and they were plentiful back then.
Frankly, I reckon that each of the subsequent WC winners would have their fair chances against Brazil 2002.
Iconic team? Hell yeah.
Unbeatable? Naah... '02 really wasn't a very testing WC.
Yeah, I can agree with all of that. It's easy to pick apart where it went wrong with hindsight, but at the time a lot of the choices for 2006 were reasonable (none of the veterans had fully dropped out of top teams yet, even if they weren't playing consistently well anymore) and taking a risk with a more old-school style seemed to be working well. I remember most brazilian fans seemed very confident and cocky before that tournament on the bigger international football forums that were around back then. Looking back, I think Roberto Carlos and Cafu should have been rotated more.
2022 team really seemed like they got carried away after thrashing South Korea and wanted to prove a point they could win the knockout games playing care-free attacking football like the classic teams did.
The magic has gone a bit now.
I agree with the arrogance, but that's harsh. They were genuine challengers throughout most of the '90s. Brazil could easily have lost both of those 94 and 98 games and they were arguably the best team at Euro 92 and 2000. 2010 team were butchers, yet they got to the final and had the chances to win it (though it would have been unjust imo), so saying they weren't real challengers is letting bias get in the way of reality.
Good points about the Dutch and Italians. But Brazil's status was something else. They inspired a mystic and awe unmatched by no other national side. I am not sure the name rings for people born after the year 2000 like it did for anyone from past generations.
Does any nation still have a footballing identity? Are the Italians still defensive masterminds, the Germans still strong willed robots, the Hungarians still genius tacticians?
Football has become too global for that (and been all my life). We're all playing the same game now and Brazil just hasn't been among the best 3-4 teams in the world in 20 years.
Football has become too global for that (and been all my life). We're all playing the same game now and Brazil just hasn't been among the best 3-4 teams in the world in 20 years.
Is the correct answer.
Brazilians are moving to Europe from a way younger age. Their football education has far more in common with Europeans nowadays.