Does Brazil still hold its status among the modern generation of football fans?

Theonas

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I remember growing up, Brazil were always synonimous with the best in football. People would use Brazil as the reference and look at the World Cup as their trophy, not too dissimilar to Real Madrid in club football today. I realised later that this was the case to all generations before me. My dad grew up with the Brazil of Pelé and Jairzinho and then the generation after him grew up with the teams of Zico and Socrates who despite not winning the WC were widely considered the best team to have never not won it. Then of course came my generation with Romario, Bebeto and later on Roberto Carlos, Ronaldo and Rivaldo and Ronaldinho. I think it's hard to argue that the Brazil of the past 15 years or so is probably the least inspiring, magical, ... whatever you want to call it in many decades which makes me wonder how does the generation born in the 2000s perceive Brazil? Does that name still capture the imagination or has it been lost? And if so, is there a national team or name that inspires similar emotions?
 
No longer. I mean out of the current squad how many players are well known world wide?
Back then even non football fans knew the name Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, and Roberto Carlos.
 
Joga bonito without good tactics and structure. They lack top tier coaches (still better than England at least they had Scolari and their last WC was in 2002 not the 60s....) and an academy system that drills teamwork as much as Italy, Germany or Spain so once the 21st century rolled around and European football coaches started drilling positional football and more teamwork-oriented tactics like counterpressing, the rugged individual brilliance of Brazilian stars like Neymar or Vinicius stopped becoming as impactful at big tournaments. I don't think Ronaldo, Romario, or Ronaldinho were necessarily more talented or impactful as Neymar, but they played football when individual brilliance made a bigger difference. Same goes for Maradona which is why Messi despite his outrageous talent had many trials and tribulations trying to win a World Cup.

Brazil could hire Portuguese coaches for a more European tactical approach, if they can combine their individual ballcarrying brilliance with a more structured attacking approach to passing they'll go far.
 
We can talk about coaching all we want, and it’s probably the most valid assessment to be had about Brasilian football at the moment. However, we cannot neglect the fact that many of the current top players are absolute crap in comparison to the previous generations you are referencing.
 
I think once European club football really disappeared far in front financially, the constant early poaching of their players had made it more difficult for them to form coherent national teams that have some club synergies at their heart. Add in that once football went really big money and the wealthiest countries started pouring in lots of resources, it becomes hard to keep up for countries with a lot of internal issues, even if there is a religious love of the game. They've obviously struggled to keep pace in terms of coaching standards and infrastructure. Overall, their players this century are nowhere near as technical as the ones developed in the 20th.

It is hard to imagine they have quite the same mythical aura any more for younger generations, especially with the 7-1 disaster, but they are still among the best and could have done better at certain tournaments. 2010 and 2018 where individual player meltdowns (Felipe Melo and Fernandinho) cost them in games they seemed to be in tactical control of rather than being far behind the times. 2022 was pure overconfidence and brainlessness on the part of the players, but I don't think you could really accuse them of relying on risky, attacking joga bonito football since the 80s.
 
lexisonfire said:
Joga bonito without good tactics and structure. They lack top tier coaches (still better than England at least they had Scolari and their last WC was in 2002 not the 60s....) and an academy system that drills teamwork as much as Italy, Germany or Spain so once the 21st century rolled around and European football coaches started drilling positional football and more teamwork-oriented tactics like counterpressing, the rugged individual brilliance of Brazilian stars like Neymar or Vinicius stopped becoming as impactful at big tournaments. I don't think Ronaldo, Romario, or Ronaldinho were necessarily more talented or impactful as Neymar, but they played football when individual brilliance made a bigger difference. Same goes for Maradona which is why Messi despite his outrageous talent had many trials and tribulations trying to win a World Cup.

Brazil could hire Portuguese coaches for a more European tactical approach, if they can combine their individual ballcarrying brilliance with a more structured attacking approach to passing they'll go far.
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All valid points. I agree that it has become harder to make a difference individually because teams are more organised and equipped to deal with that than ever. But you just can't put Vinicius in the same bracket as Ronaldo. You might argue that Romario or Rivaldo were not necessarily more talented than Neymar and that would be fair argument. But Ronaldo was an all time great. That might not be enough to win Brazil the WC just like it wasn't for Messi for many years but I am just not having him and Vinicius mentioned in the same breath.
 
Looking at the Brazil squad now is a depressing sight. So many average players, Vinicius is also terrible for them too. With the amount of Brazilians playing in top leagues, you'd expect a better squad than they have.
 
The ones that have been at Utd have been shite apart from Rafael.
 
It must feel so silly when older generations talk to kids now and say things like "oooo just like watching Brazil!" doesn't really make much sense in the spirit its meant when you look how average they are now. The fun and style has been sucked out of them, and they've not even been Pep'd yet.
 
Unfortunately no. They used to terrify any team in the world and could beat anybody on most days. Modern Brazil national team is not even shadow of the team in past decades. Their decline is really sad. I've never been their supporter but you had to at least admire them. These days, all you can feel for them is feel sorry
 
stefan92 said:
Really feels like the turning point. After that the perception changed a lot.
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I watched that game with a Brazil-supporting friend in a crowded pub. He liked football but didn't watch a whole lot of games, watching Brazil was like a treat for him, and for many casuals: you watch Brazil for the style and flair. I almost burst out laughing a few times, some of the goals that went in were farcical. That pure expression of football's best is done. They are just an ordinary team now. The magic is gone.
 
Wing Attack Plan R said:
I watched that game with a Brazil-supporting friend in a crowded pub. He liked football but didn't watch a whole lot of games, watching Brazil was like a treat for him, and for many casuals: you watch Brazil for the style and flair. I almost burst out laughing a few times, some of the goals that went in were farcical. That pure expression of football's best is done. They are just an ordinary team now. The magic is gone.
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I remember watching that as well. Was one of the weirdest experiences I ever had. I watched it together with some friends (as we did during the whole tournament) and it was the only match where we actually stopped celebrating. I remember the first two goals being celebrated as usual, when the third quickly followed it was a mix of celebrating and wondering "what is going on?" and after that we were just shaking our heads and saying things like "this shouldn't happen to a country like Brazil". We actually were happy when they scored there goal, but still everything about that match felt wrong.
 
I wonder if its more of a tactical problem than an issue with the personal. Apart from the fullbacks and defensiv midfield the starting lineup looks quite strong on paper.
 
Does anyone hold status amongst modern football fans, everyone’s a fraud because stats
 
They don't produce the same level of talent anymore. There's no where for the kids to play in the cities. According to folk who know.
 
No fun allowed = Brazil is just another country that happens to be good at football
 
What kinda kills the aura for me is that so many of them have gone to the Premier League to play for mid-table clubs, just ruins the mystique.

Andre for example is an exciting young midfielder and years ago he might have gone to Porto and you see him bossing a CL game against Liverpool or something. Instead he’s going to mid-table Premier League and chasing the ball for half the games of the season.
 
Probably not.

Brazilian football has just become a farm for players to be exported. So rather than developing players for the benefit of Brazilian football, players are being brought up to be sold to foreign markets. A lot of it is to do with the economic need of the teams and the players, they can sell them the dream and build players up to sell them abroad, this financially benefits the club teams, but also the player and their families. They won't get the same benefit selling or staying within the national leagues.

The national team has paid the price for this, it's no longer a team that is true to the traditions of Brazilian football. But a team with a mismatch in terms of identity and style that just doesn't work for them at a national team.

It's sad. But it is the export market they have positioned themselves to satisfy rather than the national team. It's going to be a hard one to turn around.

https://www.sportsvalue.com.br/en/b...-billion-with-transfers-in-the-last-15-years/

https://football-observatory.com/Brazil-tops-the-list-for-football-players-export

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1070065/fifa-transfer-revenue-brazil/
 
Not at all. I grew up with Ronaldo, Romario, Eduardo, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho etc. The late 90's early 2000 teams were made up for 7/8/9 superstars per team. Who's their superstars today? Neymar?
 
Unfortunately if you're a kid the most memorable moment for Brazil in the last 20 years is them getting absolutely walloped. I would say Spain hold that place as THE footballing nation now.
 
Lay said:
Looking at the Brazil squad now is a depressing sight. So many average players, Vinicius is also terrible for them too. With the amount of Brazilians playing in top leagues, you'd expect a better squad than they have.
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Average for Brazil is still way better talent than what most other nations can produce, they have 4 players in the Real Madrid squad and that's unthinkable for a lot of countries, even Spain doesn't have that many starters in RM. If Spain can win Euro 2024 despite being unfancied beforehand (unlike England, Germany, France), Brazil are well capable of winning trophies. They just need a coach that isn't a turd, who has the ability to get the best out of Vini and a midfield that feeds their forwards with creative passes. Easier said than done unfortunately but Brazil have never lacked for technical talents like Spain, yet they are miles behind in coaching not just at top level, but youth level too probably. Their players have superb instincts and flair but they still rely too much on moments of individual brilliance to create scoring opportunities (England at the Euros is kinda similar), everytime I watch Brazil they barely use any automatism.
Oranges038 said:
Brazilian football has just become a farm for players to be exported. So rather than developing players for the benefit of Brazilian football, players are being brought up to be sold to foreign markets.
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All of South American football is so, and for a long time everyone said it was impossible for South American teams to win the World Cup again due to the gulf in finances vis a vis Europe but Argentina pulled it off despite being a proverbial talent farm. People may say they only did it thanks to Messi but he was already way past his prime in 2022 (if Messi was good enough to win a WC by himself, he'd have dragged Higuain and Palacio to do it in 2014... Germany didn't score until ET) and needed others like Enzo, Di Maria, Dibu Martinez and McAllister to pull their weight and deliver clutch performances unlike the previous Argentina teams. Without Dibu breaking through at Arsenal and Villa, Argentina probably would've won zilch and Messi may have retired trophyless internationally. Instead in the WC final they made France look like an Mbappe-carried outfit while they played cohesively and scored beautiful team goals. So it is not impossible for a South American team to do it if they have clutch players and a good coach, Argentina and Brazil's level of technical skill is IMO only matched by Spain which is why South American players are in huge demand all over Europe.

Also Messi left for Barcelona at age 13 and even Argentineans used to criticise his commitment to Argentina due to the time he spent abroad, yet he's retiring as an all-time great legend with 2 Copas and 1 WC. If it didn't affect a kid who grew up in Spain it shouldn't affect players who move to Europe as adults as much.
 
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I actually think the issue is all their young talent gets their individuality smashed out of them when they come to Europe. I think Rodrygo and Vini jr would still make teams of old, but they would be bench options. None of their players are exciting any more and it's just a bit sad.
 
Easily the worst Brazil squad for generations. Still two World class keepers and some solid CBs but the FB and central midfield options....urgh. Paqueta their most creative midfielder and he could have a worldwide ban for summer 2026.

Vinicius can't replicate his club form and they've long had an issue at CF and now waiting for one of the 18/19 year olds to mature which is still probably another few years away.

They're lucky the format isn't still 4 through automatically and then one in the play offs as they'd seriously be struggling to qualify but perhaps they wouldn't be so lacklustre with the general decisions they've made like wating for Ancelotti who never came.

Could go out last 16 at World cup, certainly wouldn't have them in top 5-6 contenders. Only consolation is Argentina were in a similar state around 2016/17 and eventually turned it around spectacularly.
 
lexisonfire said:
Average for Brazil is still way better talent than what most other nations can produce, they have 4 players in the Real Madrid squad and that's unthinkable for a lot of countries, even Spain doesn't have that many starters in RM. If Spain can win Euro 2024 despite being unfancied beforehand (unlike England, Germany, France), Brazil are well capable of winning trophies. They just need a coach that isn't a turd, who has the ability to get the best out of Vini and a midfield that feeds their forwards with creative passes. Easier said than done unfortunately but Brazil have never lacked for technical talents like Spain, yet they are miles behind in coaching not just at top level, but youth level too probably. Their players have superb instincts and flair but they still rely too much on moments of individual brilliance to create scoring opportunities (England at the Euros is kinda similar), everytime I watch Brazil they barely use any automatism.


All of South American football is so, and for a long time everyone said it was impossible for South American teams to win the World Cup again due to the gulf in finances vis a vis Europe but Argentina pulled it off despite being a proverbial talent farm. People may say they only did it thanks to Messi but he was already way past his prime in 2022 (if Messi was good enough to win a WC by himself, he'd have dragged Higuain and Palacio to do it in 2014... Germany didn't score until ET) and needed others like Enzo, Di Maria, Dibu Martinez and McAllister to pull their weight and deliver clutch performances unlike the previous Argentina teams. Without Dibu breaking through at Arsenal and Villa, Argentina probably would've won zilch and Messi may have retired trophyless internationally. Instead in the WC final they made France look like an Mbappe-carried outfit while they played cohesively and scored beautiful team goals. So it is not impossible for a South American team to do it if they have clutch players and a good coach, Argentina and Brazil's level of technical skill is IMO only matched by Spain which is why South American players are in huge demand all over Europe.

Also Messi left for Barcelona at age 13 and even Argentineans used to criticise his commitment to Argentina due to the time he spent abroad, yet he's retiring as an all-time great legend with 2 Copas and 1 WC. If it didn't affect a kid who grew up in Spain it shouldn't affect players who move to Europe as adults as much.
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It's widely acknowledged that European travellers and settlers introduced football to South America.

Now, Argentina hasn't had such a change in the type and style of players being sent abroad. Generally, Argentinian players would have been more European in style anyway due the more European influence on their game, same could be said for other South America ln countries like Uruguay, Paraguay etc. Now, I may wrong here, but I recall from reading about this before, those countries were less ethnically diverse than Brazil, mainly consisting of European settlers.

Brazil's style was heavily influenced from samba dance, which stemmed from African immigrants, it was all about entertainment.
But overall it had a much wider international influence. Especially when it made It's way past the elite to the streets, it brought all these people together.

https://thesefootballtimes.co/2015/01/10/how-football-and-race-shaped-brazil/

That's why to me, it is that they've change their players development to focus on desirable attributes to get moves to Europe & abroad much younger. It has had a much greater impact on the traditional style associated with their national team, than the likes of Argentina etc.
 
Oranges038 said:
Probably not.

Brazilian football has just become a farm for players to be exported. So rather than developing players for the benefit of Brazilian football, players are being brought up to be sold to foreign markets. A lot of it is to do with the economic need of the teams and the players, they can sell them the dream and build players up to sell them abroad, this financially benefits the club teams, but also the player and their families. They won't get the same benefit selling or staying within the national leagues.

The national team has paid the price for this, it's no longer a team that is true to the traditions of Brazilian football. But a team with a mismatch in terms of identity and style that just doesn't work for them at a national team.

It's sad. But it is the export market they have positioned themselves to satisfy rather than the national team. It's going to be a hard one to turn around.

https://www.sportsvalue.com.br/en/b...-billion-with-transfers-in-the-last-15-years/

https://football-observatory.com/Brazil-tops-the-list-for-football-players-export

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1070065/fifa-transfer-revenue-brazil/
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Good post.

Brazil can’t play like Brazil because they have lost their way and succumbed to the financial aspects of the modern game. Players are ripped away from there at incredulous ages now and aren’t in the ecosystem long enough to find themselves or acquire the famed associative identity that gave Brazil its mystique.

It’s a lot of bastardisation and European: values, tactical thinking, training methods, which will produce a severely watered down product given it’s mimicry and not premium level.

Futsal, street ball, beach football and so forth used to be a solid resource and now it’s not, so all the trademark uniqueness has evaporated.

If Brazil is simply a mimicking pool, billions would have to be pumped into their football to have them produce talent at the same rate as countries in Europe do.

The 1-7 shattered the remnants of illusion that Brazil still existed. This is likely to be their true nadir, and it will take a miracle for them to regain their once lofty status.
 
Their squad isn't great now with Neymar out, but I think they were really unlucky in the past 2 world cups.

They dominated Belgium and Croatia and should have gotten past both.
 
Football is evolved a lot tactically, especially from 2008/2009 (Pep effect I guess). Brazil in comparison to other countries, still has one of the best squad in the world on paper. Problem for them is that other teams with squads not as good, have also evolved tactically and are collectively better.

I believe the Brazilian team of 2002 would lose to Spain 2010 team despite having more talented individual players and superstars, because that Spanish team was tactically superior and had a game plan that would have had the Brazilian superstars chasing after the ball for a long period and frustrating the life out of them.

That 7-1 loss to the Germans at home in 2014 also played a huge part in how Brazil is seen today in the world of football, they no longer inspire fear.
Also, the Brazilian players today play in European leagues with other players that play for countries with generally lesser talents, but those players don't consider the Brazilian ones to be anything special. So when they meet each other in international games/competitions, there's little to no fear of the danger that any the Brazilian players might represent on the pitch.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
Their squad isn't great now with Neymar out, but I think they were really unlucky in the past 2 world cups.

They dominated Belgium and Croatia and should have gotten past both.
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Against Belgium, it was a game of 2 halves though. They dominated the 2nd half but lost the game in the 1st half.

Against Croatia, they lost the game tactically before the penalty shootout by throwing themselves forward the way they did, when it wasn't necessary. And before Neymar's goal, they had the ball but weren't really creating much.
 
The last Brazil squad that really drew my attention at an international tournament was the 2010 team and even then the signs of decline were already there. All the teams since then have played absolutely putrid football.
 
Interesting question. Not really for me but that is as much to do with globalisation and homogenisation of the game where increasingly little is unique and unfamiliar. And alongside that there appears to be a gap between the consistent production line of world-class players who would step up at the business end of international tournaments - Pele, Didi, Garrincha, Zico, Romario, Ronaldo, Rivaldo - and what has followed since. That's not a slight on Neymar as he needed a bit more support to get over the line in 2014 and 2022.

Eddy_JukeZ said:
Their squad isn't great now with Neymar out, but I think they were really unlucky in the past 2 world cups.

They dominated Belgium and Croatia and should have gotten past both.
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There's an argument that what has done them in recent World Cups has not been the lack of attacking flair, but the ability to manage games and keep a clean sheet in the knockout stages. Each of their exits since 2002 have included an element of the self-inflicted.
 
Fortitude said:
Good post.

Brazil can’t play like Brazil because they have lost their way and succumbed to the financial aspects of the modern game. Players are ripped away from there at incredulous ages now and aren’t in the ecosystem long enough to find themselves or acquire the famed associative identity that gave Brazil its mystique.

It’s a lot of bastardisation and European: values, tactical thinking, training methods, which will produce a severely watered down product given it’s mimicry and not premium level.

Futsal, street ball, beach football and so forth used to be a solid resource and now it’s not, so all the trademark uniqueness has evaporated.

If Brazil is simply a mimicking pool, billions would have to be pumped into their football to have them produce talent at the same rate as countries in Europe do.

The 1-7 shattered the remnants of illusion that Brazil still existed. This is likely to be their true nadir, and it will take a miracle for them to regain their once lofty status.
Click to expand...

Maybe we have a somewhat romanticised view of what Brazilian football was. But, it's still sad to see what they've become, trying to be like everyone else.
 
Are the attacking skills Brazil were synonymous with more easily handled by modern day defenses? The modern defender is a lot more athletic at the very least than those in years past.
 
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