Doctors are repeating the mistakes of the miners strikes - Telegraph
- Thread starter rcoobc
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I've hit my monthly limit and can't see it. Odd line- how can a 'former' anything quit? Assume he is in a lesser job now?
I might soon be in a similar position, what with how the new Telegraph website and my iPad seem to positively despise each other.
This is the article in full:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...strike/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
I expect that will see more of these stories a we draw closer to the strike date. Hopefully the DoH's contingengy planning is adequate.
I cunningly got round the paywall by going incognito. Does the Hippocratic Oath come into industrial disputes- not sure they were a thing in his day. Do we know what the contingency plan is?
You'd hope so but I get the feeling that they'll remove little lines here and there (like that one) and claim they've come to a great compromise.
To all the doctors on strike for 48 hours....you have my complete support.
Thank you very much, it is very much appreciated!
As has the overwhelming support we've received on picket lines and on the wards too from patients and families.
I've tried to do all I can wrt education, both on here and in my actual life too.
One of my closest friends thought a junior doctor only referred to the doctors who were within their first year of graduation. Clearly need to do a lot more.
Exactly.
The fact that labour were also shit at running the NHS does not excuse the absolute disaster that the NHS has become over the past few years under the current government. It is genuinely worrying and I really don't know what the future is for the health service.
With all due respect, how many of the people who are supporting the proposal understand the proposals?
What I find interesting is that, having trawled through quite a few conservative websites, the conservative base seems to be amongst the most supportive of us of any group that I've encountered. Even when the article is supportive of the government and disparaging of the doctors.
Certainly flies against the theory that a) we are lefty revolutionaries and b) that if you're right wing and support this government, you will blindly support this proposal.
Can you outline some of the points that you think the NHS can realistically gain from private practice?
www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/15/childrens-medicine-at-risk-as-doctors-dispute-puts-off-trainees
Some incredibly disturbing and representative statistics in his article:
As an aside, the number of posts being filled by doctors in the following specialties this year has gone down from last year: Core medical training, the training programme that leads to a lot of the trainees that end up in A&E, Paediatrics, Obstetrics and Gynaecology, Anaesthetics, Public health.
Overall, 21% of all training posts across the country this year went unfilled, compared to 18% this year ( despite the government paradoxically reducing the number of some training posts in specialties which are already under filled).
Unsurprisingly, the specialties with amongst the very worst fill rates are those with the most unsocial hours. These specialties are also amongst the worst for retention of their trainees. This is especially the case in A&E.
A&E is appallingly staffed. All across the country. The lifestyle is so horrific, so incompatible with any kind of normal family life, that the retention rate, especially of British graduates, is very low. This leads to A&E departments being staffed by registrars who are locum international graduates, often poor in quality, not adequately trained for the job they do and not properly aware of the system they're working in.
I've worked in multiple hospitals where the A&E registrar body were almost exclusively staffed by locum from abroad who were not ATLS trained. That is incredibly dangerous. One of them was a GP trainee in Nepal. That's the registrar.
Interestingly, one poster on here has suggested simply replacing all of the doctors here, especially if we threaten or actually start leaving, with foreign doctors. Whatever people think of this plan, and I can certainly go more in depth here on this topic, even this is looking difficult, considering some A&Es are no closing because they cannot adequately staff their departments because of the new locum cap imposed by the government, both local and international graduates.
The 'model' rotas released by NHS employers (ie what they consider to be so good so as to try to entice and placate us) looked a lot like the A&E rotas.
Good stuff.
Some incredibly disturbing and representative statistics in his article:
- There is already a 12.5% of shortfall in Paediatrics trainee numbers
- This rises to 20% in some quite important sub specialties, such as neonatal intensive care.
- The impending contract has led to the resignation of 8 Paeds trainees in the London region in the past 3 months, more than in the previous two years combined. Now correlation doesn't always mean causation. But certainly a lot of us are now finally spent and demoralised beyond repair I think and are planning other options.
As an aside, the number of posts being filled by doctors in the following specialties this year has gone down from last year: Core medical training, the training programme that leads to a lot of the trainees that end up in A&E, Paediatrics, Obstetrics and Gynaecology, Anaesthetics, Public health.
Overall, 21% of all training posts across the country this year went unfilled, compared to 18% this year ( despite the government paradoxically reducing the number of some training posts in specialties which are already under filled).
Unsurprisingly, the specialties with amongst the very worst fill rates are those with the most unsocial hours. These specialties are also amongst the worst for retention of their trainees. This is especially the case in A&E.
A&E is appallingly staffed. All across the country. The lifestyle is so horrific, so incompatible with any kind of normal family life, that the retention rate, especially of British graduates, is very low. This leads to A&E departments being staffed by registrars who are locum international graduates, often poor in quality, not adequately trained for the job they do and not properly aware of the system they're working in.
I've worked in multiple hospitals where the A&E registrar body were almost exclusively staffed by locum from abroad who were not ATLS trained. That is incredibly dangerous. One of them was a GP trainee in Nepal. That's the registrar.
Interestingly, one poster on here has suggested simply replacing all of the doctors here, especially if we threaten or actually start leaving, with foreign doctors. Whatever people think of this plan, and I can certainly go more in depth here on this topic, even this is looking difficult, considering some A&Es are no closing because they cannot adequately staff their departments because of the new locum cap imposed by the government, both local and international graduates.
The 'model' rotas released by NHS employers (ie what they consider to be so good so as to try to entice and placate us) looked a lot like the A&E rotas.
Good stuff.
Right ok. Firstly, I never said the NHS was perfect. Secondly, what healthcare system doesn't have problems and issues? Thirdly, we still have all of those exact same problems. Many of them are now worse. Some of the good work done after the Mid Staffs disaster to prevent another such disaster is being undone now too.
We do indeed swap from one incompetence to another. One can be worse than the other though.
I'm not sure if that is a rhetorical question but what were the pledges?
The local trusts have made the choice but it is the government that has paved the way for the privatisation. And certain issues (such as the counter productive practice of fining trusts that may already be in severe financial difficulties for failing to meet targets ) encourage trusts to find desperate solutions to back longs, financial difficulties etc.
Paediatric and Neonatal Rotas are full of gaps. I've been working on the registrar rota for 4 years it's unforgiving. Still, I choose to do this, so I accept the unsociable elements to it. It doesn't change my opinion that Jeremy Hunt is a cnut and I just don't understand how he can impose this contract. A lot of my colleagues think they're trying to privatise the NHS via the back door. I don't know but I do despair at the treatment all health care workers get (from the porters, admin staff, to health care assistants, nurses and doctors) for propping up the NHS through hard work and good will. It's a shame this is happening obviously, especially when I'd wager the majority of us aren't looking for riches, but just say no to being shafted.
Perhaps you should all hide your riches in Panama; then you too could claim to be 'victims of wealth'.
That's an incredibly judgemental comment to make. You can k off.
I think you missed my deep sarcasm, mate. My remark was about the people named in the Panama Papers, and their press lackeys ludicrously labelling overworked medical staff as being only concerned about money.
Apologies. I'm a bit thick sometimes...(clearly).
Nope - I've a bad habit of being unclear.
@Jippy and @Nick 0208 Ldn I don't know if this works in the Telegraph in particular but an easy way to get around quite a few newspapers paywalls is by going incognito. They just use cookies to track your number of views, I think.
It works with the telegraph, and I'm sure they know, but if anyone has a Sunday Times tip a pm would be much appreciated.
Everytime I've had to get round the telegraph, I've been using proxies 
Works well for the Tel. For the FT, you can just type in the headline. The Times is more tricky, annoyingly.
Out-patient clinics and administration for one.
You described it as 'sensational'; which whilst being an apt description for many of its staff individually, is probably overly generous for the system and the flaws inherited by the Coalition.
May 2015 NHS budgetary pledges:
Labour - £2bn p.a. increase.
Lib Dems - £8bn p,a. increase.
Conservatives - £8bn p.a. by polling day; later rising to £10bn after assuming office.
Much obliged for the suggestion, and i will certainly bear it in mind. Although my annoyance is probably more unique than most: as it has been my custom to use the iPad's Voice Over function for reading long articles, something which no longer seems possible with the new website design. It skips to read the infernal advertisements before even one solitary paragraph can be completed.
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How can outpatient clinics be improved realistically from the private system, taking into account that the private system in the UK deals with many less patients than the NHS? This is a genuine question btw, as I suspect your gripes with NHS outpatient clinics may be complex than you imagine.
Well, with all due respect, I really think it is. It is not perfect but that does not stop it from being an amazing healthcare system. You can go to any country and find flaws in the system. You can find someone who's had a bad experience. You can find the media blowing up issues repeatedly until the public believe it's a terrible system. The NHS can be improved and we should always strive to do so. However, it is a system that compares incredibly well to other healthcare systems despite receiving less funding and does so free at the point of care. I really don't think people realise how good we actually have it sometimes.
Did you read the articles I posted above about the financial status of the NHS by the way? Why exactly have NHS trusts gone from being all in the black to almost all in the red in the past 2-3 years under Hunt?
https://medium.com/@busily/doctoring-heroes-into-villains-75fc2fe7f94c#.2kyqgje2i
Another long article about the campaign run by the government against the junior doctors written by a non doctor.
Not sure if it's too long to hold the interest of those who don't have an interest in the NHS but i think it accurately portrays how this government has approached the whole negotiation.
It's left me and most of my colleagues feeling even more demoralised.
Another long article about the campaign run by the government against the junior doctors written by a non doctor.
Not sure if it's too long to hold the interest of those who don't have an interest in the NHS but i think it accurately portrays how this government has approached the whole negotiation.
It's left me and most of my colleagues feeling even more demoralised.
Jeremy Hunt....stand up and explain yourself.....as one of my teachers used to say when he was annoyed!!
Anyway that's a good, clear article and has it in a nutshell really. Btw what is Hunt up to? He seems to be keeping a very low profile. Don't feel demoralised either, you have the support of the public.
It's time our newspapers helped the doctors out here.
Great article.
The Telegraph is back, chipping away at GPs and their £1m pension pots.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/21/i-weep-for-gps-and-their-1-million-pension-pots/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/21/i-weep-for-gps-and-their-1-million-pension-pots/
As someone with no skin in the game so to speak I have a couple of observations. The NHS would have more ability to pay junior docs more if they were more open to change, and not just oppose any changes because the NHS is a sacred cow. I got slaughtered on this forum for suggesting the NHS outsource it's procurement of indirect categories such as IT, let's face it you couldn't do a much worse job than the NHS do. Why not transform or privatise some of the non core functions, and harvest some savings to reinvest?
The government are arguably even worse at outsourcing than they are at doing stuff themselves. IT being a case in point.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24130684
Procurement simply can't be done worse than the public sector, albeit the actual procurement of those procurement services may be a total shambles lol.
I deal with some buyers running a budget at work and some of the procurement choices they make are really really bad. I think it is the area where the capitalist system is unquestionably better. Having a generous set budget simply makes people lazy and feckless.
Investment in a procurement function typically delivers 6-8 times ROI, but procurement roles in the public sector as relatively poorly paid, and tend to be administrative rather than strategic in their approach, so are probably not returning much on the investment in them.
Right behind the doctors and nurses on strike today.
The spin by Jeremy Cnut and the Tories has been unbelievable. Thought Heidi Alexander did a good job of exposing them yesterday in the commons.
Best of luck, africanspur. And to all junior doctors striking today and tomorrow.
I'll be a junior doctor come August, but I'll be working in Wales for the next two years so it won't affect me initially.
I'm chuffed to hear the amount of people who are backing the doctors, it really has surprised me. Obviously strikes aren't the way to go about it in an ideal world, but when backs are against the wall desperate times call for desperate measures. It astonishes me how Hunt has acted in all this. Astonishing.
Hunt will use the next 48 hours to villanize us even further, emphasizing how "lazy" junior doctors are.
I'm already thinking of a Plan B and preparing for a career path later down the line if the contracts are a permanent fixture. I really can't imagine starting a family happily with the way it's going.
This can easily have a domino effect and cause a privatization of our health system. Good job Hunt.
I'm chuffed to hear the amount of people who are backing the doctors, it really has surprised me. Obviously strikes aren't the way to go about it in an ideal world, but when backs are against the wall desperate times call for desperate measures. It astonishes me how Hunt has acted in all this. Astonishing.
Hunt will use the next 48 hours to villanize us even further, emphasizing how "lazy" junior doctors are.
I'm already thinking of a Plan B and preparing for a career path later down the line if the contracts are a permanent fixture. I really can't imagine starting a family happily with the way it's going.
This can easily have a domino effect and cause a privatization of our health system. Good job Hunt.
I supported the doctors in everything up until this point. Withholding care crosses the line. Putting the lives at risk of people who have nothing to do with your argument is abominable, especially when through all the talking its really just about wanting more money and less hours.
I think it could also be the turning point. Up until now the public supports them, but if people die through this that could change very quickly.
I think it could also be the turning point. Up until now the public supports them, but if people die through this that could change very quickly.
What risk? Today's probably the safest day you could enter any hospital due to senior coverage.
I find it amusing those saying they support their argument but strikes are too far.What do you actually want them to do when the goverment is unwilling to listen or comprise at all?
Jeremy Hunt is the one putting lives on the line by trying to stretch the junior doctors (even further). Patient care becomes much worse when doctors are overworked, leading to mistakes and deaths. The blood will be on Hunt's hands.
Their shifts are being covered by consultants. And people will die over the next days...about 1,4000 people die every in the UK, most of whom will die in hospitals. That's a normal state of affairs. Won't stop The Express and Tory apologists blaming junior doctors for it, mind.
And their argument isn't about increased wages- Hunt's already offered them a pay hike. It's about longer hours, exhausted doctors, and general defunding of the NHS.
Some doctors will be worse-off even with this "pay hike" (due to the fact that they have to work longer hours - so pay per hour falls). Besides, no amount of pay will fix excessive hours - doubling pay won't make them less tired.